Red Flag players

[PSUColonel]

Exactly what are the effects? Do they bring down the performance of players in their grouping?, the team? Are they more prone to suspensions? Can they get ejected from games?

[yabanci]

The help file says in means the player is a "potential clubhouse disrupter." I doubt anybody knows any more than that and can only speculate what it means and how it affects the game.

[perez24]

I've had a red flag guy on my roster for 2 season (Jason Campbell) and nothing bad has happened...yet.

[BradS]

Wondering why TO did not receive this distinction. He should lead the league in this.

[Shkspr]

X Factor. Chemistry is generated by the game differently each time you begin a universe.

If I had to take a wild-assed guess, I'd speculate that perhaps a red flag player would negatively impact cohesion in that player group by a random amount each year. Anyone have any ideas about how to test that assumption? Have we ever tracked cohesion changes in any study?

[BigDawg]

Originally Posted by BradS

Wondering why TO did not receive this distinction. He should lead the league in this.

Their should be a special rating just for TO lets call it Kryptonite

[Dutch]

Exactly what are the effects?

That's the million dollar question, isn't it? If we knew that, we'd know *exactly* what to do with a red flagged player.

[MizzouRah]

Yep, it's one of FOF's little mysteries.

[SunDevil]

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

Yep, it's one of FOF's undocumented, not explained, no manual written, no developer explanation, little mysteries.

Fixed it for you.

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by SunDevil

Fixed it for you.

You don't know the code to unlock that part of the manual?

[st.cronin]

My WAG is this:

If a red flag player plays on a team with poor chemistry, the effects of that chemistry will be multiplied. If a red flag player plays on a team with good chemistry, there will be little or no problems.

[Doug5984]

I think this will be something cool to follow in multiplayer. Will some teams completely avoid reg flag players while others may not care and just stock pile talent that is left to the side because of this designation.

I know I will try to avoid these players, but if someone is falling in the draft you might have to take him based on talent alone.

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by SunDevil

Fixed it for you.

Right, but is it documented in the real NFL? I prefer not to know the actual effects and I hope they're somewhat random, just as in real life.

[SunDevil]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

Right, but is it documented in the real NFL? I prefer not to know the actual effects and I hope they're somewhat random, just as in real life.

But in the real NFL, you have rumors, anonymous sources, background checks, the media, college coaches, police reports, paternity tests and such to have a more complete picture about someone who is considered a red flag.

All we have is welcome to the FOF bitch, in regards to some of the games features..

[-Mojo Jojo-]

Originally Posted by SunDevil

But in the real NFL, you have rumors, anonymous sources, background checks, the media, college coaches, police reports, paternity tests and such to have a more complete picture about someone who is considered a red flag.

Moreover in the NFL if the red flag causes problems, you see it on TV. I've simmed five seasons with a red flagged starting DE and not received any feedback to indicate what impact (if any) the red flag has had... The guy's play has been exactly in line with his scouted rating as far as I can tell.

[CraigSca]

Can you REALLY see it on TV?

"Wow, Joe Blow dropped that pass because his teammate is a bad influence."

I mean, we THINK we can see it on the field, but how can we really determine that?

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

My WAG is this:

If a red flag player plays on a team with poor chemistry, the effects of that chemistry will be multiplied. If a red flag player plays on a team with good chemistry, there will be little or no problems.

That's probably close.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Doug5984

I think this will be something cool to follow in multiplayer. Will some teams completely avoid reg flag players while others may not care and just stock pile talent that is left to the side because of this designation.

I know I will try to avoid these players, but if someone is falling in the draft you might have to take him based on talent alone.

I can imagine folks will probably want to avoid them. But when do players achieve their "red flag" status? What might be interesting to follow is when owners that avoid them end up getting up by pure dumb luck.

Also, I wonder if the red flag can be removed? Through trade or salary bump. That would add a new dimension to this as well. (EDIT: Meh...probably not.)

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by -Mojo Jojo-

Moreover in the NFL if the red flag causes problems, you see it on TV. I've simmed five seasons with a red flagged starting DE and not received any feedback to indicate what impact (if any) the red flag has had... The guy's play has been exactly in line with his scouted rating as far as I can tell.

I'd argue that Terrell Owens has put up better numbers since being considered an NFL 'red flag'.

1996 San Francisco 49ers 16 10 35 520 14.9 46 4 7 2 23 
1997 San Francisco 49ers 16 15 60 936 15.6 56 8 16 1 48 
1998 San Francisco 49ers 16 10 67 1097 16.4 79 14 17 4 52 
1999 San Francisco 49ers 14 14 60 754 12.6 36 4 12 0 36 
2000 San Francisco 49ers 14 13 97 1451 15.0 69 13 23 5 65 
2001 San Francisco 49ers 16 16 93 1412 15.2 60 16 21 6 70 
2002 San Francisco 49ers 14 14 100 1300 13.0 76 13 17 5 61 
2003 San Francisco 49ers 15 15 80 1102 13.8 75 9 15 4 55 
2004 Philadelphia Eagles 14 14 77 1200 15.6 59 14 20 9 51 
2005 Philadelphia Eagles 7 7 47 763 16.2 91 6 10 4 32 
2006 Dallas Cowboys 8 7 44 558 12.7 46 6 9 1 31 

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

Can you REALLY see it on TV?

"Wow, Joe Blow dropped that pass because his teammate is a bad influence."

I mean, we THINK we can see it on the field, but how can we really determine that?

Exactly my thoughts. We don't know. The players themselves don't even know. And I don't know, unless I run the game in debug mode and break it.

[Doug5984]

Originally Posted by Dutch

I can imagine folks will probably want to avoid them. But when do players achieve their "red flag" status? What might be interesting to follow is when owners that avoid them end up getting up by pure dumb luck.

Also, I wonder if the red flag can be removed? Through trade or salary bump. That would add a new dimension to this as well. (EDIT: Meh...probably not.)

I have not studied red plag players by any means but the ones I have seen are in the draft. Not sure if more develop later in their careers are not.

[Dutch]

Here's a theory.

Perhaps the 'red flag' does put a hit on cohesion, but also brings in more gate receipts? Is there a benefit to bringing in a 'red flag'?

So if the analogy fits, consider this. "Is there a benefit to bringing in casino's to your state that also brings crime and drugs?" The obvious benefit is more state revenue and jobs. So maybe the 'red flag' isn't just a bad thing.

Something to think about along the way.

[dime]

Originally Posted by Doug5984

I have not studied red plag players by any means but the ones I have seen are in the draft. Not sure if more develop later in their careers are not.

yes, sir. was playing around with the saints and jay bellamy (in his 11th year) picked up a red flag between weeks 5 and 6 or something like that.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by dime

yes, sir. was playing around with the saints and jay bellamy (in his 11th year) picked up a red flag between weeks 5 and 6 or something like that.

Probably went a scientology meeting the week before that....was it a bye week?

[EagleFan]

Okay, here's my recent attempt to figure this out.

I have 2 red flag players on my team. I keep not wanting to resign them but they are stone cold studs at their positions. My team, however, keeps underachieving even though if you compare the team from top to bottom to the bowl winners each year they are as good if not better most years. I have no concrete proof that this is causing the problem but shortly I hope to cut ties to them and see if there is a jump in the team's performance at all.

[Bonegavel]

I think like with most of Jim's stuff, the answer is probably simply (like Volatility, for e.g.). It probably only effects cohesion.

The help file, like Yabanci pointed out, says "potential clubhouse disrupter." Probably not much more to it than that.

One thing to note, I looked through every team in my SP league and I noted that not one red flag player had a chemistry note on the right. Also, of all my red flags in the league (about 6) 3 were highly rated players (75,87,60 something) and 4 were 45, 44, and 3 scout rated.

In addition, I have noted that not one other teammate had an issue with a red flag player. So, it doesn't seem to make them more hated.

[daveroswell]

Cool, some real info on this...I JUST asked a similar question, and got the "read the help file" response...

[MizzouRah]

I have two red flag players on my team as well. Right now, everyone gets along, but I'm going to watch the team this year to see if any conflicts develop.

[QuikSand]

I think a productive and logical way to think about this whole architecture (which may also have the added benefit of accuracy) is as a series of situational modifiers. Let's try an example.

Say your team is executing a running play, and your left tackle is selected for a key run block opportunity. The game needs to calculate whether he successfully completes this task.

We'd start with ratings, in whatever combination the game selects them. For the sake of simplicity, let's say that your LT has nice, even ratings of 50 in all categories, so whatever amalgamation of skills (like run blocking and blocking strength) would still combine to 50 for this example.

Now, for this play, I'm guessing that we still have several steps to go through.

Cohesion can certanly fit here... let's say your line has plenty of veterans who have played together a while, and you rate a 95 in OL cohesion, among the best in your league. One way to represent that woudl be as a modifier -- I'll express that positive influence as a number a bot greater thean 1.00, meaning it's a positive effect when the rating is multiplied by it. Here, I'll use a nice, round figure of 1.10 (illustration only, I/we have very little idea how big an effect these thinga are, but a high-end modifier like 1.10 makes intuitive sense to me, at least). So, the player's base rating of 50 get modified to 50 x 1.1 = 55.

Now, we'll do the same thing with team chemistry at the suitable position. Let's say that the team has a small positive effect here -- the OL group leader had one affinity with another player, but that's all. So, for this example, the game's modifier would be something like 1.02 (again, just an illustrative example). If the team had multiple or stroner OL affinities, or better chemistry between the QBs and the OL leader, then this might be higher. If the team had conflicts along the OL, then we might see a value like 0.9 instead -- meaning this multiplier wouuld work in reverse as a value-shrinking effect. But here, the slight bump from the 1.02 turns his 55 into a new value of 56.1.

Maybe we also factor in the player's level of stamina -- based on is endurance. At this point in the game, maybe he is pretty tired, and has a modifier of something like 0.95 here. A player with higher endurance at the same point in the game might have dropped only to 0.98 or something else... but this guy is dragging a bit. So, now, hiw 56.1 is graded down by that factor of 0.95... and he ends up with a resulting net rating of 56.1 x 0.95 = approximately 53.3.

So, we can assume that the game does this same sort of calculation with every player who is called upon for a meaningful action in the game -- starts with base ratings, adjusts for the various components that wouuld alter his effectiveness as he's playing on this particular team, in this particular game, and so forth.


The list of modifiers above is almost certainly not complete. FOF 2007 added a factor like "season rust" and it's very easy to think of that as just one more modifier like this -- if your guy is really rusty, maybe that applies a modifier of 0.7 or 0.8 along the way -- something that would really limit his effectiveness for the game he's actually in right now.

And I think it's sensible to consider the "red flag" as one more component to this. I haven't seen it interfering with cohesion, so my best guess is that it's in the chemistry effects instead. I don't have any way to measure it, but I think this is the right framework to think of it. If your OL from above has a tiny bit of good chemistry and is sitting with a 1.02 modifier... but then you sign a "red flag" player to play right tackle for you, maybe that upends the chemistry modifier for that position group (or for everyone, even?) and you see that modifier drop from a 1.02 to a 0.96 or something like that? In essence, it's just an extension of the same system, meaning that when the game actually calculates how players perform, they will just do a shade worse.

Along the way, it will be impossible to say that this particular play worked or didn't work because of a single modifier... but if your red flag player ends up making your left tackle's adjusted ratings a 48 instead of a 53, then at the end of the line, at least in the long run, it's going to mean a lower number of key run blocks, maybe a few more sacks allowed, and a dent in your offense's production. And so on, rippling through everywhere it has effect.


I don't claim any particular insight into the code here, nor do I have any real sense of hos large the lagnitude of these effects may be... but conceptually, I think this is a productive way to think about cohesion, chemistry, and stuff like "red flags." I hope that it proves helpful.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

I have two red flag players on my team as well. Right now, everyone gets along, but I'm going to watch the team this year to see if any conflicts develop.

I don't think that's how it will manifest. The affinity/conflict system (pretty fully explained in FOF 20004, and largely the same in FOF 2007, though it seems the players have a higher personality threshold for these interactions) seems to be separate from the red flag label. Just because your team doesn't start developing new conflicts doesn't mean the red flag isn't having an effect.

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

I have two red flag players on my team as well. Right now, everyone gets along, but I'm going to watch the team this year to see if any conflicts develop.

I don't see how conflicts would develop since that's based on their birthdate and that's constant. Trying to reverse engineer the game design, how would you (not you specifically, but everyone in general) implement it? I think Bonegavel is right that you take the hit in cohesion. Either that, or I can see it magnifying the conflicts already in-house.

Originally Posted by CraigSca

Can you REALLY see it on TV?

"Wow, Joe Blow dropped that pass because his teammate is a bad influence."

I mean, we THINK we can see it on the field, but how can we really determine that?

This is a reply to a post a couple months ago. Although the PBP has improved slightly in 2k7, it would be nice to see something like:

The offense is in the Single-Back formation with trips receivers, strength on the left side.
Kansas City is in a 43 alignment with 3-deep zone coverage.
They are looking only for a pass play.
Peyton Manning takes the snap and heads back.
Peyton Manning steps around the rush, and pegs a short pass to Wide Receiver Reggie Wayne.
He's throwing away from the double coverage.
The pass is intercepted in the endzone by Ty Law!
Touchback.
After the play, Peyton Manning and Reggie Wayne are arguing on the sideline.
It doesn't look as if they're on the same sheet of music.

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

I don't think that's how it will manifest. The affinity/conflict system (pretty fully explained in FOF 20004, and largely the same in FOF 2007, though it seems the players have a higher personality threshold for these interactions) seems to be separate from the red flag label. Just because your team doesn't start developing new conflicts doesn't mean the red flag isn't having an effect.

I see your point QS, but I don't like the idea of a red flag player causing another player to take a slight ratings hit. I guess as an overall (and I use that word loosely) effect of having him on the team I could see an overall team "cohesion" reduction, but he shouldn't make my star running back take a hit because he's on the team. Now.. if he and my star RB do not like eachother I could assume he's getting under his skin and causing disruption to the team chemistry and then the trickle down effect happens.

Let's take SLB Ryan Nece for example:




I mean, why is this guy so Angry?

He's been a starter for every team EXCEPT when I signed him (didn't even notice he was a red flag guy when I signed him - I would like to see something that pops up when signing one of these guys like, "Are you sure, he could disrupt our team")

So, in two games, he has played, but been a backup and he's already ticked off. Not sure I've seen that happen as quick with a non-red flag guy before.

[MizzouRah]

It's also odd that his pissed off, but he's very loyal.

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

I don't see how conflicts would develop since that's based on their birthdate and that's constant. Trying to reverse engineer the game design, how would you (not you specifically, but everyone in general) implement it? I think Bonegavel is right that you take the hit in cohesion. Either that, or I can see it magnifying the conflicts already in-house.


This is a reply to a post a couple months ago. Although the PBP has improved slightly in 2k7, it would be nice to see something like:

Maybe it's a modifier that increases conflicts? I'm just thinking real world here and that could be why I'm probably totally off base. I think of TO coming to my team and all of a sudden my other star WR is now ticked at my QB, maybe my offensive leaders are now bickering back and forth - just total chaos if we are losing. Scratching head here....

[Bonegavel]

Would be cool if red flags had a bunch of things they could do to a team and not all of them bad.

They could cause more conflicts to arise (particularly against them). They could increase some affinities (other players coming together in opposition to them). They could hurt cohesion. They could cause other players to become disgruntled. They could (rarely?) help teams pull together. Maybe the coach gets an email where they are asking the coach to release the red flag and if he is released the team could rally.

[Poli]

Crapola. Time to go check out my Rebels. My eyes are peeled on the IHOF back in the draft, but I never checked my own players.

[Poli]

Whew. Safe.

[MizzouRah]

Since he's out for 7 weeks and his ticked off, I released him and signed another backup.

My other red flag guy is a starting FB who is well liked by the fans - he stays.

[twothree]

Originally Posted by dime

yes, sir. was playing around with the saints and jay bellamy (in his 11th year) picked up a red flag between weeks 5 and 6 or something like that.

Has anyone seen a player lose his red flag? Specifically, a new draftee or young player that has a red flag and a mentor on his team at his position. I haven't.Also, has anyone seen a player be both a mentor and have a red flag? I am almost positive that they are mutually exclusive, but I think they could both show up on a player's card.

[Shkspr]

Another avenue to look at might be to see if coach motivation and discipline have mitigating effects on the influence of a red flag player. For that matter, do players pick up red flags as a result of a particular coach type (the Coughlin effect)?

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Shkspr

Another avenue to look at might be to see if coach motivation and discipline have mitigating effects on the influence of a red flag player. For that matter, do players pick up red flags as a result of a particular coach type (the Coughlin effect)?

How could you possibly look at that?

[molson]

Anyone wonder if this is just a meaningless distinction, like long snapping/holding ratings seem to be? It it was something specific, why not just include it in the help file?

[Senator]

There is a stud RB in the upcoming IHOF draft that is a red flag. It will surely be our test case.

[Shkspr]

Originally Posted by Dutch

How could you possibly look at that?

Without a staff editor, I'm not sure you can. You'd have to replay seasons many times, half with a good disciplined coach, half with a poor one, and with exactly the same rosters. You'd probably have to set up a MP test league to do that, and spend buckets of time replicating each team's FA moves. Even then, you'd need a matched set of coaches in each attribute other than the ones we want to see.

And multiple runs at the data. Might be easier just to kidnap Jim.

The Coughlin effect on red flag generation, if it exists, might be observable. It would take diligent recording of the circumstances under which every red-flagged player became so, and a fairly big sample size.

[twothree]

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

I mean, why is this guy so Angry?

He's been a starter for every team EXCEPT when I signed him (didn't even notice he was a red flag guy when I signed him - I would like to see something that pops up when signing one of these guys like, "Are you sure, he could disrupt our team")

So, in two games, he has played, but been a backup and he's already ticked off. Not sure I've seen that happen as quick with a non-red flag guy before.

I have been quick simming during commercials today looking at red flag rookie players. And, so far this has been the thing that has stood out in regard to several red flag players. The red flag player's attitude toward his current playing time quickly goes down if he is not starting. With several red flag players demanding to be traded before the end of their rookie contract (playing time attitude = demanding trade).

Edit: However, there are also red flag players who stay content without starting. I just had a group where 3 out of 6 non-starting rookie red flag players stayed content with all 3 seeing playing time in 15 or 16 games for each of their first 3 seasons.

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by twothree

I have been quick simming during commercials today looking at red flag rookie players. And, so far this has been the thing that has stood out in regard to several red flag players. The red flag player's attitude toward his current playing time quickly goes down if he is not starting. With several red flag players demanding to be traded before the end of their rookie contract (playing time attitude = demanding trade).

Edit: However, there are also red flag players who stay content without starting. I just had a group where 3 out of 6 non-starting rookie red flag players stayed content with all 3 seeing playing time in 15 or 16 games for each of their first 3 seasons.

So, the mystery continues then?

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by Shkspr

Without a staff editor, I'm not sure you can. You'd have to replay seasons many times, half with a good disciplined coach, half with a poor one, and with exactly the same rosters.

Disregarding the rest of your post, I think this would be impossible as you would have a different draft every time. In other words, even if you used the same draft file, the draftees would be different every time in terms of ratings.

This is why we can never do any coach/coordinator testing.

[Shkspr]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

Disregarding the rest of your post, I think this would be impossible as you would have a different draft every time. In other words, even if you used the same draft file, the draftees would be different every time in terms of ratings.

This is why we can never do any coach/coordinator testing.

In a test MP league, I assume no team would sign draftees...

[perez24]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Okay, here's my recent attempt to figure this out.

I have 2 red flag players on my team. I have no concrete proof that this is causing the problem but shortly I hope to cut ties to them and see if there is a jump in the team's performance at all.

I've won with red flag players, but it seems as though the number of affinities reduced throughout training camp and the season. I can't verify this, but it seems that I had fewer affinities at the end of the season than I did at the beginning.

But it could just be my imagination.

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by Senator

There is a stud RB in the upcoming IHOF draft that is a red flag. It will surely be our test case.

How did this situation turn out?

Any other new info on red flag players?

I just drafted one in the GEFL and I need to know what I am getting into...