Interesting article on NBA all star weekend

[Lathum]

http://sports.aol.com/whitlock/_a/ma...20103009990001

It become obvious the reporter has an agenda towards the end of the article but the fact this article was even published is really bad for the NBA. I'm not sure how much is accurate but if half of it is that isn't a good sign for the NBA.

[Logan]

These issues were brought up during Simmons' (long) column yesterday.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2...simmons/070220

[Ksyrup]

Did Jason Whitlock get canned at ESPN.com, did he leave for a "better opportunity," or is he a "roving reporter" now? Man, that guy's ESPN.com articles sucked eggs.

[Ksyrup]

After reading that article, two thoughts came to mind - (1) I hate to admit it, but this is probably one of the reasons I'm no longer a basketball fan. Not just an NBA fan, but a basketball fan. I didn't intend it and I didn't make the conscious decision, but I can't help but believe the transformation of the game has mirrored the off-court issues; and (2) if Whitlock was white, he'd probably be getting a ton of shit for equating this event to Freaknik.

[KevinNU7]

All-Star Weekend can no longer remain the Woodstock for parolees, wannabe rap artists and baby's mamas on tax-refund vacations.

,

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Did Jason Whitlock get canned at ESPN.com, did he leave for a "better opportunity," or is he a "roving reporter" now? Man, that guy's ESPN.com articles sucked eggs.

I believe Whitlock had a feud with Scoop Jackson and also felt he wasn't free to speak his mind at ESPN. He's now a sports writer for AOL.

Thats a 'promotion' only Ron Rivera could appreciate.

[Ksyrup]

Too bad he couldn't have coaxed Steven A Smith and Stuart Scott into a Resevoir Dogs-type end to the feud.

[Young Drachma]

The only way you're going to rid the NBA of that element is to somehow convince a whole lot of kids to start playing golf.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

After reading that article, two thoughts came to mind - (1) I hate to admit it, but this is probably one of the reasons I'm no longer a basketball fan. Not just an NBA fan, but a basketball fan. I didn't intend it and I didn't make the conscious decision, but I can't help but believe the transformation of the game has mirrored the off-court issues; and (2) if Whitlock was white, he'd probably be getting a ton of shit for equating this event to Freaknik.

Without pushing this too far, aren't you effectively saying the game the associated culture is "too black" for you now? (correct me if I'm off on this) I mean, I'm no fan of hip-hop per se, but its a part of American culture now. My impression is that there's an older generation (I'm not sure how old you are) of folk who are increasingly uncomfortable with some of the cultural changes around them.

And before this escalates, I just want to be clear I'm not calling you a racist or anything like that here.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

Without pushing this too far, aren't you effectively saying the game the associated culture is "too black" for you now? (correct me if I'm off on this) I mean, I'm no fan of hip-hop per se, but its a part of American culture now. My impression is that there's an older generation (I'm not sure how old you are) of folk who are increasingly uncomfortable with some of the cultural changes around them.

And before this escalates, I just want to be clear I'm not calling you a racist or anything like that here.

I took his point to be that the NBA is no longer a good product, and that the off-the-court stuff is like an allegory for why the on-the-court is no longer interesting.

That's how I would put it, anyway.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

Without pushing this too far, aren't you effectively saying the game the associated culture is "too black" for you now? (correct me if I'm off on this) I mean, I'm no fan of hip-hop per se, but its a part of American culture now. My impression is that there's an older generation (I'm not sure how old you are) of folk who are increasingly uncomfortable with some of the cultural changes around them.

And before this escalates, I just want to be clear I'm not calling you a racist or anything like that here.

I don't think it necessarily has to equate to a racial element, but yes, I think the game of basketball has moved too far from what I appreciate and am comfortable with for me to enjoy it anymore. But I see the unfortunate elements of the culture surrounding the game to have affected the game itself, which is my greater concern. Frankly, I don't think I'd have even noticed cornrows if David Stern hadn't pointed them out. But I certainly have been aware of the individualism, the trash talking, etc., for years, and that wasn't part of the game (or was a small part of the game) years back.

Maybe in this example, the hip hop/gangsta thing has a racial element to it, but that's not really my focus. It's not that any one specific culture has taken over the game, just that the game has been negatively affected by a culture that obviously is less concerned with sports per se, and more concerned with promoting a violent, non-family oriented lifestyle. And where that culture/lifestyle intersects with my enjoyment of the pure sport, it's a problem. I could care less if it's a black culture, Italian mob culture, rich suburban white kid "rave" culture, etc.

[Subby]

Can we agree at least that Simmons' column was freaking hilarious? The NBA and Vegas are right in his wheelhouse...

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Subby

Can we agree at least that Simmons' column was freaking hilarious? The NBA and Vegas are right in his wheelhouse...

The simmons one was funny. The other one had much more of a to-the-point agenda.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Subby

Can we agree at least that Simmons' column was freaking hilarious? The NBA and Vegas are right in his wheelhouse...

Absolutely. As he said, "There was gambling and partying and Vegas and basketball -- four of my favorite things."

"Favorite" was probably an understatement...more like "his life."

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Atocep

I believe Whitlock had a feud with Scoop Jackson and also felt he wasn't free to speak his mind at ESPN. He's now a sports writer for AOL.

Thats a 'promotion' only Ron Rivera could appreciate.

Feud is putting it mildly. Whitlock (as is evident in the article) has an absolute HATE for the hip hop culture. He saw Scoop Jackson as a representative of of that culture in the basketball media and attacked him a few times on Page 2. I can only assume that ESPN did not appreciate one of its columist attacking another. Thus he was not allowed to speak his mind. As far as the article goes, it has pretty much become commonplace for Whitlock to criticize the hip hop culture's influence on the NBA and he has been frustrated by the lack of strong criticism of that influence by some of those who played the game in the past. I know he called out Oscar Robertson for not that at least once.

[BrianD]

We have had a number of conversations around here about whether NBA players are thugs, or whether the hip-hop culture is a good or a bad thing for the league, or about whether the league is too "black" for mainstream America. Has anybody looked into the violence statistics surrounding other sports all-star games or other games?

It would seem to me that no matter what your opinion of an "acceptable culture" would be, a culture of violence should never be acceptable. If the culture of violence surrounding the NBA is far out of line with other leagues, should something be done to change it?

There are also a number of discussions about whether age restrictions for the draft is an attempt to continue to hold African-Americans back, or if it is an attempt to bring more maturity to the league. Does this discussion change in light of the articles in this thread?

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by BrianD

We have had a number of conversations around here about whether NBA players are thugs, or whether the hip-hop culture is a good or a bad thing for the league, or about whether the league is too "black" for mainstream America. Has anybody looked into the violence statistics surrounding other sports all-star games or other games?

It would seem to me that no matter what your opinion of an "acceptable culture" would be, a culture of violence should never be acceptable. If the culture of violence surrounding the NBA is far out of line with other leagues, should something be done to change it?

There are also a number of discussions about whether age restrictions for the draft is an attempt to continue to hold African-Americans back, or if it is an attempt to bring more maturity to the league. Does this discussion change in light of the articles in this thread?

But that is the question. Is the culture of violence around the NBA that far out of line with other leagues? The athlete in question at the strip club shooting was not a NBA player. He was an NFL player. We have talked about the Cincinati Bengals ad nauseum. The Chargers have had multiple incidents. Tank Johnson's situation etc. I am in no way defending the idiocy of some of the NBA players nor am I calling all NFL players "thugs". Both leagues have their issues.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

But that is the question. Is the culture of violence around the NBA that far out of line with other leagues? The athlete in question at the strip club shooting was not a NBA player. He was an NFL player. We have talked about the Cincinati Bengals ad nauseum. The Chargers have had multiple incidents. Tank Johnson's situation etc. I am in no way defending the idiocy of some of the NBA players nor am I calling all NFL players "thugs". Both leagues have their issues.

But I would argue that the NBA has taken to that culture within the four corners of the game much more obviously than the NFL has. Plus, football is a violent game by its very nature, so it tends to get a pass on this issue, since the violence is generalized and can't be traced to any one culture - and indeed, was alive and well before some cultures even existed. I think the NFL has much more in common with the illegal drug culture of the MLB than the thug culture of the NBA.

And again, it's hard not to see the general socio-economic issues that cross sports lines. Even though the NFL has these issues, they don't define the sport like they do the NBA. That's my perception, anyway.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

But that is the question. Is the culture of violence around the NBA that far out of line with other leagues? The athlete in question at the strip club shooting was not a NBA player. He was an NFL player. We have talked about the Cincinati Bengals ad nauseum. The Chargers have had multiple incidents. Tank Johnson's situation etc. I am in no way defending the idiocy of some of the NBA players nor am I calling all NFL players "thugs". Both leagues have their issues.

But isn't there a difference between individual players/incidents and an all-star weekend that brings a crowd that leads to 350 arrests and restaurants that have to close down for safety? I would also say there is a difference between players behaving badly and a general culture.

[lcjjdnh]

Originally Posted by Atocep

I believe Whitlock had a feud with Scoop Jackson and also felt he wasn't free to speak his mind at ESPN. He's now a sports writer for AOL.

Thats a 'promotion' only Ron Rivera could appreciate.

From hxxp://thebiglead.com/?p=1038

Q: Why’d you leave Page 2? Did your feud with Scoop Jackson have anything to do with you leaving?
I’ve always disagreed with Page 2 about the value of my column. But when I started, it was an opportunity to write alongside Ralph Wiley, Hunter S. Thompson and Bill Simmons. That’s a great lineup, and I just wanted to be in the middle of that order somewhere. Page 2 had a lot of energy. Ralph and Hunter passed, Simmons got his own page, the editor who kicked me ideas (Jay Lovinger) got promoted and suddenly I was batting in a very different lineup, and the new manager had me hitting a lot lower in the order. I wasn’t real comfortable, but I figured I’d let things play out. I quit doing radio and had more time to focus on my weekly ideas. The column was already game tight, but the frequency, consistency and content all improved. The compensation didn’t, the place in the batting order didn’t and the team started shopping for talent in remote locations.

He later said some not-so-nice things about Lupica later in the interview, which is the reason Whitlock no longer appears on Sports Reporters, I think.

Also, don't forget, he writes a column for the KC Star in addition to his AOL one. You can find his all-star one here: hxxp://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/sports/columnists/jason_whitlock/16730767.htm

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

But I would argue that the NBA has taken to that culture within the four corners of the game much more obviously than the NFL has. Plus, football is a violent game by its very nature, so it tends to get a pass on this issue, since the violence is generalized and can't be traced to any one culture - and indeed, was alive and well before some cultures even existed. I think the NFL has much more in common with the illegal drug culture of the MLB than the thug culture of the NBA.

And again, it's hard not to see the general socio-economic issues that cross sports lines. Even though the NFL has these issues, they don't define the sport like they do the NBA. That's my perception, anyway.

There was a discussion as to why it this culture was much more obvious in the NBA than in the NFL. NBA players are "seen" on the court while NFL players are helmets, pads etc.

You are right though. I guess it is all about perception. I don't perceive NBA players as a whole to be any more "thuggy" then any other league.

[lordscarlet]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

There was a discussion as to why it this culture was much more obvious in the NBA than in the NFL. NBA players are "seen" on the court while NFL players are helmets, pads etc.

You are right though. I guess it is all about perception. I don't perceive NBA players as a whole to be any more "thuggy" then any other league.

I don't think the question here is as much about the players as it is about the culture around it.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

You are right though. I guess it is all about perception. I don't perceive NBA players as a whole to be any more "thuggy" then any other league.

I do. Like I said, it all goes back to how they play the game. The idea of being dissed and needing respect and trash talking and showing up the other guy...you see that all play out on th court in basketball far more than in football. In fact, the only football-related action I can think of that could be specifically linked to any particular culture is the throat-slashing gesture that was banned a few years back.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

I do. Like I said, it all goes back to how they play the game. The idea of being dissed and needing respect and trash talking and showing up the other guy...you see that all play out on th court in basketball far more than in football. In fact, the only football-related action I can think of that could be specifically linked to any particular culture is the throat-slashing gesture that was banned a few years back.

You see it all play out more because it is easier to see it play out. You are kidding yourself if you think those things don't happen on the football field.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by lordscarlet

I don't think the question here is as much about the players as it is about the culture around it.

That was the question I was asking.

[Subby]

You should see what the thousands of white people do that attend wizards games.

It is fucking off the hook, yo...the nba has a problem.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

You see it all play out more because it is easier to see it play out. You are kidding yourself if you think those things don't happen on the football field.

So are you saying that football players as just as much thugs as basketball players, but since basketball antics are so much more visible the basketball culture is much more thug-like than the football culture?

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by BrianD

So are you saying that football players as just as much thugs as basketball players, but since basketball antics are so much more visible the basketball culture is much more thug-like than the football culture?

If I am reading your question correctly, no.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by Subby

You should see what the thousands of white people do that attend wizards games.

It is fucking off the hook, yo...the nba has a problem.

Wait, what's this about white people attending NBA games? Wizards games, at that? Are there even any white people in DC?

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by lordscarlet

I don't think the question here is as much about the players as it is about the culture around it.

Define the culture around basketball if it is not about the players.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

You see it all play out more because it is easier to see it play out. You are kidding yourself if you think those things don't happen on the football field.

I'm saying the culture has taken on a life of its own on the court that is largely absent from football. Football players get themselves in trouble, but I don't see the ties to the game itself that I see with basketball.

Let me just put it this way...take the NFL Pro Bowl out of Honolulu and put it in Las Vegas, and I don't think you have the same weekend that teh NBA just experienced.

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

Wait, what's this about white people attending NBA games? Wizards games, at that? Are there even any white people in DC?

Yes. They're called politicians. Or Crooks. Interchangable, really.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Yes. They're called politicians. Or Crooks. Interchangable, really.

For kicks, I'd like to see a thread about whether politicians are crooks, the same way that we have the monthly thread about whether NBA players are thugs.

[molson]

The thing that bothers me about these discussions is everyone bases their opinions on their own anecdotal perceptions, which can obviously be distorted by many things, including life experiences and prejudices.

Most of the perceptions about the NBA presumably don't come from people actually watching the games. Typically, those negative perceptions are made by people that aren't fans. Instead, those perceptions come from things the brain chooses to remember and take extra stock in from things heard in the media that people choose to remember or to put extra stock in.

This kind of phenomenon, the forming of perceptions based on anecdotal evidence is, to me, is the clearest form of racism that I can perceive as still existing in the country (obviously, a black guy would be able to perceive a lot more).

Not calling anyone racists here.

[Subby]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

For kicks, I'd like to see a thread about whether politicians are crooks, the same way that we have the monthly thread about whether NBA players are thugs.

Did you go to former President Gerald Ford's funeral? It was like Republican woodstock. I was so afraid that I was going to get shaken down or that someone was going to peddle influence or make an illegal campaign contribution to me.

White people and their scary culture scare me! The federal government has a real problem on its hands!

[Pumpy Tudors]

By the way, as a black man and a thug, I think that 111% of all NBA players are thugs, except Pau Gasol who is only 87% thug.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by Subby

Did you go to former President Gerald Ford's funeral? It was like Republican woodstock. I was so afraid that I was going to get shaken down or that someone was going to peddle influence or make an illegal campaign contribution to me.

White people and their scary culture scare me! The federal government has a real problem on its hands!

I want to snuggle with you.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Define the culture around basketball if it is not about the players.

The culture in basketball would center around the players and coaches.
The culture around basketball would include the fans and activities around the stadium/action.

[Subby]

Originally Posted by BrianD

The culture in basketball would center around the players and coaches.
The culture around basketball would include the fans and activities around the stadium/action.

Brian - in all seriousness, this is not something that happens around the large majority of basketball games. Hundreds of basketball games take place every year with no incidents. I just think all-star weekend has taken on a life of its own for whatever reason and the Las Vegas police department was ill-equipped to deal with it.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

For kicks, I'd like to see a thread about whether politicians are crooks, the same way that we have the monthly thread about whether NBA players are thugs.

But how fun would it be to have a whole thread where people agree that politicians are crooks?

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Subby

Brian - in all seriousness, this is not something that happens around the large majority of basketball games. Hundreds of basketball games take place every year with no incidents. I just think all-star weekend has taken on a life of its own for whatever reason and the Las Vegas police department was ill-equipped to deal with it.

Thank you for being the first person to seriously address my question.

I do realize that this sort of activity doesn't happen around normal games and is reserved for the all-star weekend...and championship winning teams.

My main question is whether this was one crazy weekend that got out of control? Is this a regular all-star weekend thing? Is this limited to all-star weekends for the NBA or does it also happen in other sports?

OK, that was three questions. Basically I want context so I can properly evaluate this story.

[Subby]

Originally Posted by BrianD

I do realize that this sort of activity doesn't happen around normal games and is reserved for the all-star weekend...and championship winning teams.

My main question is whether this was one crazy weekend that got out of control? Is this a regular all-star weekend thing? Is this limited to all-star weekends for the NBA or does it also happen in other sports?

OK, that was three questions. Basically I want context so I can properly evaluate this story.

Well championship winning teams cuts across all sports...I think we can both agree on that.

And in all honesty, I think having the all-star game in Vegas is the issue here. You already have an anything goes culture. Add to that an ill-prepared police presence. Then you have a place which basically exists on one street, so you have major traffic problems and lots of pedestrians to kind throw gasoline on the fire.

Big events attract this kind of behavior (see any number of SuperBowl stories), but I think the city itself is a big culprit here. I don't recall all-star games in years past being anywhere near this notorious.

[TheOhioStateUniversity]

Where is the major media coverage of this purported weekend of thug terror over Las Vegas. This seems like propaganda exaggerating a few or even several isolated events. I am sure many major events bring an increased criminal presence, but I'm just not buying this "Thug terror" "hip hop culture" BS.

[Subby]

Originally Posted by TheOhioStateUniversity

Where is the major media coverage of this purported weekend of thug terror over Las Vegas. This seems like propaganda exaggerating a few or even several isolated events. I am sure many major events bring an increased criminal presence, but I'm just not buying this "Thug terror" "hip hop culture" BS.

espn.com and aol.com (Simmons and Whitlock both talk about it a lot)

[lordscarlet]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

Wait, what's this about white people attending NBA games? Wizards games, at that? Are there even any white people in DC?

The District of Columbia was 30% white in the last census.

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Define the culture around basketball if it is not about the players.

It's about the fans that attend games, follow the sport, and give the "everyday face" of it to the general public (since most people don't watch the NBA, they only see people wearing the shwag around the mall).

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Yes. They're called politicians. Or Crooks. Interchangable, really.

And lordscarlet.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Subby

I think having the all-star game in Vegas is the issue here.

+1

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by lordscarlet

The District of Columbia was 30% white in the last census.

Yeah, that's kinda what I'm saying.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by BrianD

It would seem to me that no matter what your opinion of an "acceptable culture" would be, a culture of violence should never be acceptable. If the culture of violence surrounding the NBA is far out of line with other leagues, should something be done to change it?

That is where I am coming from: "a culture of violence" should never be acceptable (or glorified) for entertainment value, just like a culture of racism should not acceptable either. I don't care what color your skin is. I feel the same way about the culture of drugs because I come from a time where the anti-drugs message (right after the 60s) was drilled into me from every source. You can be understanding of where someone came from and the socio-economical conditions they grew up in but the motivation is do better through education and following the lead of role models - not those that want to glorify gangs, violence, drugs, etc. because somehow it lends them more credibility.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

But that is the question. Is the culture of violence around the NBA that far out of line with other leagues? The athlete in question at the strip club shooting was not a NBA player. He was an NFL player. We have talked about the Cincinati Bengals ad nauseum. The Chargers have had multiple incidents. Tank Johnson's situation etc. I am in no way defending the idiocy of some of the NBA players nor am I calling all NFL players "thugs". Both leagues have their issues.

Given that one of the "big" incidents in Vegas over the weekend was curteousy of Adam "PacMan" Jones and his posse, it seems like the line trying to be drawn here has become a bit blurrier.

PacMan needs to be done. Over. No more.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Given that one of the "big" incidents in Vegas over the weekend was curteousy of Adam "PacMan" Jones and his posse, it seems like the line trying to be drawn here has become a bit blurrier.

PacMan needs to be done. Over. No more.

In all fairness, I think Pacman was only a witness to a shooting, and had zero to do with it.

Please go pick on him for one of his 67 other crimes.