Weight Training (Moved from Bug Thread)

[T-Storm]

I think there's a bug with the weight training. Players that are either close to or completely below the weight requirements of their positions can't bulk up, and the same goes for bulking down of too heavy players.

Not a bug per se, but I think the AI shouldn't release veteran players, that have been on your roster for a couple of seasons, in favor of a midseason injury pickup.

And another design decision conerning career records: There should be a higher requirement of games played before a player shows up.
I just don't like seeing a couple of RBs that just played for a season or even less as the career leader for yards per carry. Or a QB that passed for less than 13000 yards as the QB rating leader

[MartinD]

Originally Posted by T-Storm

I think there's a bug with the weight training. Players that are either close to or completely below the weight requirements of their positions can't bulk up, and the same goes for bulking down of too heavy players.

I don't think that's a bug - looks pretty realistic to me...

This is trying to simulate guys who simply can't get any heavier or lighter due to their body type - for example, this is like asking Jevon Kearse or Robert Mathis to play at above 280 (when it's blatantly obvious that their bodies aren't set up to carry this much weight, and that the extra pounds would slow them down/make them less effective) or asking Ted Washington or Vince Wilfork to get below 300 (if they could lose that much weight, I'd guess they'd lose a lot of the strength and power that makes them very good at the job they do).

Martin

[T-Storm]

Originally Posted by MartinD

I don't think that's a bug - looks pretty realistic to me...

This is trying to simulate guys who simply can't get any heavier or lighter due to their body type

But how are you able to figure this out? In FOF you are only presented with a player's mass/body ratio. And that pretty much is your only real knowledge of their body type, isn't it?

So far, I have always assumed that performance wise absolute height/weight can be completely disregarded. E.g.: I don't think that height mismatches in CB/WR confrontations are actually considered when calculating the outcome of a play.

Anyway, the thing I actually meant to say as to why I believe this is broken:
There seem to be far too many (all?) players whose "mass/body ratio is a bit high / very high compared to other players at their positions" that can't trim down. The same goes for players whose ratio is low that can't bulk up.

Even considering that not everyone can bulk up/trim down due to their body type, I'd like to think that (if not the majority) at least some are able to do so. A quick view at my roster and about 10 players who are either below their minimum positional weight requirements or above the optimum weight for their positions shows that this is not the case.

I also remember someone writing here about those "bulk up/trim down" buttons beeing backwards quite some time (and potentially a couple of patches ago).

Thus I conclude, that this might (still) be a bit buggy.

[adubroff]

Originally Posted by T-Storm

I also remember someone writing here about those "bulk up/trim down" buttons beeing backwards quite some time (and potentially a couple of patches ago).

Thus I conclude, that this might (still) be a bit buggy.

I don't think it's buggy but it's still "weird" to me. Basically, when I play I cycle through every guy before camp and see who will accept slimming down (if he needs it) or bulking up(if he doesn't). If I'm going to do this, then this functionality ends up being just busy work on my part.

Is anybody ignoring these messages by:
a) Sending the guy further toward whichever direction he's already in (i.e. slim down a guy who's too thin according the game)
b) Not sending the guy in the direction the game indicates even though the player will accept it.

The only reason I can think of for doing either might be a down the road position switch....

[MartinD]

Originally Posted by T-Storm

But how are you able to figure this out? In FOF you are only presented with a player's mass/body ratio. And that pretty much is your only real knowledge of their body type, isn't it?

So far, I have always assumed that performance wise absolute height/weight can be completely disregarded. E.g.: I don't think that height mismatches in CB/WR confrontations are actually considered when calculating the outcome of a play.

Anyway, the thing I actually meant to say as to why I believe this is broken:
There seem to be far too many (all?) players whose "mass/body ratio is a bit high / very high compared to other players at their positions" that can't trim down. The same goes for players whose ratio is low that can't bulk up.

Even considering that not everyone can bulk up/trim down due to their body type, I'd like to think that (if not the majority) at least some are able to do so. A quick view at my roster and about 10 players who are either below their minimum positional weight requirements or above the optimum weight for their positions shows that this is not the case.

I also remember someone writing here about those "bulk up/trim down" buttons beeing backwards quite some time (and potentially a couple of patches ago).

Thus I conclude, that this might (still) be a bit buggy.

My thinking on this (which is based on about a dozen SP seasons, so don't take this as gospel) is that the players in non-imported drafts (i.e. in-game generated drafts) who are outside of the ideal weight range for their position are automatically moved as far in the appropriate direction as possible.

For example (figures completely made up, but probably fairly realistic), take a guy who's slotted as a linebacker, but is 6' 0" and 205 pounds. As part of the draft pool creation process, the AI sees that he's underweight, and bulks him up as far as possible - this leaves him at (say) 220 pounds. You then have a guy who's very marginal as a linebacker, but is unable to get any heavier.

How do you know that a guy is as heavy (or light) as he's going to get? The only time you're able to tell is in the stage just before training camp, when you get the option to bulk up/trim down players - if one of the options is greyed out, you have a guy who's all the way at one end of the scale.

I don't have any proof that this is what happens, but I've seen a lot of guys who are a little outside the 'ideal' weight range for their position who aren't able to bulk up/trim down any more.

As far as imported drafts (from TCY or otherwise) go, I have no idea how these work, as I've never used them...

Martin

[M GO BLUE!!!]

I drafted a CB in the third round I thought would be a steal. He was a 4.4 40 guy who had agility about 7.1. He was 6-0 and 219. He sucked at stopping the run, so safety was out of the question, but I figured if he'd drop a few, maybe he'd improve and turn into a starter.

He held out, so I couldn't get him to slim down in the first year. Second season I find out he can't trim down and he took a plunge in the ratings. By the third season he was an excellent kick returner, but couldn't do anything else.

I love this game!

[DougWyatt]

I had this RB on my team named Berome Jettis. He was like 250+ and under 6'. Every year I tried to get him to slim down, and get into FOF ideal RB weight; but he just wouldn't lose weight. He was always the best back on the team (till he neared retirement), so I'd start him. He ended up with 13,662 yards in 13 years, and 5th on my leagues all time list. I can only dream of how good Berome would've been if I could've made him get to the ideal weight.

[stevew]

Yeah, sounds sort of like this Hironhead Ayward guy that I had. He ate too much buffet, and got close to 300 pounds. Left the league far too quickly cause he couldn't control himself.

[GMO]

Sometimes a player's weight is ideal, he's above average in height and his mass-body ratio is low.
I'm not sure whether I should leave him as is or bulk him up.

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by T-Storm

I think there's a bug with the weight training. Players that are either close to or completely below the weight requirements of their positions can't bulk up, and the same goes for bulking down of too heavy players.

That was the design. I wanted to simulate players who would never be ideal because of weight issues. There's a limit in place on each side for every player.

I think I might have made it too restrictive in that too often a player who is definitely underweight or overweight can't make the first move toward correction, especially with new draftees. Next time I'm working on the game I'll take a longer look at this.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Jim, you were supposed to respond to GMO's dilemma.

[Leonidas]

I'm finding unless the guy is glaringly off weight, like a 208 lb TE (don't laugh, I've had it), don't mess with weights. More often then not a good player is taken down a peg when you try to improve him this way. Maybe OK for marginal guys to take a chance, but do not mess with perfectly good ballplayers with this option.

[MartinD]

Originally Posted by Leonidas

I'm finding unless the guy is glaringly off weight, like a 208 lb TE (don't laugh, I've had it), don't mess with weights. More often then not a good player is taken down a peg when you try to improve him this way. Maybe OK for marginal guys to take a chance, but do not mess with perfectly good ballplayers with this option.

I've found that you can ask rookies to change weight without any problems (and this sometimes improves ratings), but asking an older guy to gain or lose is asking for trouble, even if the weight change is 'right' for the position he plays.

Martin

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by GMO

Sometimes a player's weight is ideal, he's above average in height and his mass-body ratio is low.
I'm not sure whether I should leave him as is or bulk him up.

Maybe we need a "get shorter" option...

(another example of a guy who wouldn't be able to change though might be Todd Pinkston)

Actually, and I'm sure this has been covered before (I know I've been in discussions about it), the order could really use some tweaking I think wrt training and position switches that you'd like to have done ideally during camp.

[IMetTrentGreen]

I wanted to simulate players who would never be ideal because of weight issues.

why not let us issue a standing order to slim down or bulk up to a specific weight, and let the player work in the offseason to get there? if he wants to, he will, if he doesn't, he won't.

i've always felt that the biggest thing lacking in text-sims was good, old-fashioned "want to." especially in professional sports, motivation is so huge, because everyone is talented. it's the difference between john henderson and albert haynsworth.

i'd like to see a game that offers really talented players that just don't care how good they are. call it the j.d. drew patch.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Good idea. Perhaps coach motivation and/or discipline could have a bearing on this and all weight training.

[beargrowlz]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

That was the design. I wanted to simulate players who would never be ideal because of weight issues. There's a limit in place on each side for every player.

I think I might have made it too restrictive in that too often a player who is definitely underweight or overweight can't make the first move toward correction....

I agree. I see no reason why I shouldn't be able to get Vince Wilfork over 400 lbs and play two positions on the D-Line. He's well on his way RL, but the game stopped me at 397.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Originally Posted by stevew

Yeah, sounds sort of like this Hironhead Ayward guy that I had. He ate too much buffet, and got close to 300 pounds. Left the league far too quickly cause he couldn't control himself.

I saw a guy in my leage named Ike Malstott. Looked like a FB, but played like a RB. Couldn't make him the starting RB though, so he just got an occasional carry. Too bad he wouldn't lose the weight!