Raising the Level of Discussion at FOFCentral

[John Galt]

I think it is easy to look at the old Sideline days and talk of the "Golden Age" of this board. Several "Old-Timers" have gone since then and several who remain have expressed longing for the "good ol' days." I usually think such talk is nonsense and usually is just part of everyone believing the time they thought something was "new" made it more special. However, I've taken a trip on the Way Back Machine and the more I look at the ol' days, the more I realize some of the things that have been lost.

Most importantly, I think a sense of "discussions" and "contributions" seems to have disappeared. That is, people write to the board on a thread just because they have something to say, not because it contributes to the discussion. Looking at old political, philosophical, game-related, movie, and esoteric threads, I found a sense that people felt they were contributing to something. They recognized that the "board" mattered and just saying something for the sake of talking was crazy. This isn't to say a Tobias or Wig entry didn't occasionally enter into the fray, but even then such posts were rarely designed to hi-jack a thread.

Nowadays, I look at the board and I see thread after thread of mindless attacks, arguments without any substance, polls with no meaning, and subjects with no purpose (i.e. thread-kill). Often people write just to put in "their 2 cents" when it really isn't even worth a penny. There seems to be a declining sense of importance in what one posts. Saying something has become equivalent to saying something important.

I don't mean to be overly critical - if I didn't care about the board, I wouldn't be posting this. Yet, I think a change in ethic would do this board good. The celebration of high post counts and cheapshots seems to have eliminated actual "discussion" and I think people here can change that. Here are my suggestions for an improved board:

1) Treat each thread as a discussion and decide if your post would contribute to that discussion.

2) Dola's should be treated as an embarassment yet again. The era of smirking at them should end.

3) Attempt to engage other people in arguments - don't just disagree for the sake of expressing your opinion.

4) Realize that some of the best threads come about when people aren't supporting an agenda, but rather when everyone in it is just adding to the whole. The thread may not go where anyone intended, but at least it won't turn into petty squabling.

5) Recognize that post counts mean nothing (with the exception of QS - whose post count is truly astounding given the effort he puts into most of his writings on this board).

I don't know if this will ring true with those reading this, but at least think hard about it before you reply. I'd like to think the quality of discourse could be raised above what it is now.

Thanks for reading.

[heybrad]

I think my point on the threadkill thread is mentioned in here again.

This board seems to have a problem sometimes of beating a dead horse.

[The Afoci]

Originally posted by heybrad
I think my point on the threadkill thread is mentioned in here again.

This board seems to have a problem sometimes of beating a dead horse.

Like the fact that the next ten posts will inlude, if not only be, hey brad.

[heybrad]

Originally posted by The Afoci
Like the fact that the next ten posts will inlude, if not only be, hey brad.

I tried to get people to cut down on that.

[Kodos]

I think the board is doing fine.

[Tarkus]

Originally posted by Kodos
I think the board is doing fine.

ditto

Tarkus

[Anrhydeddu]

John Galt - only seeing what he wants to see, again.

Back in the Sideline days, there were plenty of posts/threads of mindless attacks, arguments without any substance, polls with no meaning, and subjects with no purpose, etc. Just see the ones with dolamite in them.

[The Afoci]

I agree that the board is doing fine. In fact I think the best part about it is that it isn't just about FOF or serious stuff. If you don't like the Thread Killer thread, ignore it, it isn't tough.

[Bee]

Thanks for reading.

Actually, I didn't...the post was too long but I'm sure it was very insightful.

Is it too late to say "hey Brad"? I'm too lazy to look it up under the heybrad guide to board etiquette.

Thanks!

[heybrad]

Originally posted by Bee
Is it too late to say "hey Brad"? I'm too lazy to look it up under the heybrad guide to board etiquette.

No reason to get snippy. The heybrad etiquette was posted partly in jest and partly because it gets old to see every single post I type get replied with "hey brad". I'll tell you what. I'll follow you around from now on and post "Buzz Buzz" everytime I see a post from Bee. Trust me, it will get old, but I guess I'll boost my post count and thats what its all about.

[The Afoci]

buzz brad.

[Bee]

Sorry heybrad, didn't mean to come off snippy. My post was meant purely as satire (which often doesn't come across very well online ).

[heybrad]

Buzz Buzz

[heybrad]

I'm guessing the turn this thread has taken will piss off John Galt.

[Bee]

With how much I post, you'll get a workout.

[CamEdwards]

I too think this board is fine. Everything evolves, but I still think this is one of the best message boards on the internet.

[Draft Dodger]

I've seen FOFC members meet other FOFC members in real life. I myself ran into an old acquaintance here that I'd lost touch with in real life. I've seen people discuss legal questions, work questions, relationship questions, health questions, computer questions, restaurant suggestions, vasectomy questions, Terrell Owens questions, music questions, questions about child-rearing, gynecological questions (of all things)...

not too mention all the enjoyable contests and puzzles that keep so many of us entertained.

and this is all in the last month or so.

what's wrong with our community again?

[astralhaze]

I think this thread is asinine

[Kodos]

I know I have a gajillion posts, but I for one don't give a rat's ass about my number of posts. Once in a while I'll stop to make fun of my ridiculous post count, but other than that, who cares. Turn them off for all I care.

Yours,
The FOFC Bronze Medalist Poster

[Craptacular]

There's a certain quote form the QotM list I feel like stealing right now ....

[astralhaze]

Originally posted by John Galt


1) Treat each thread as a discussion and decide if your post would contribute to that discussion.

Every post, even smart ass remarks meant for a laugh, are "part of the discussion." It may not meet your idea of what you think the discussion should be, but that is just your opinion.

2) Dola's should be treated as an embarassment yet again. The era of smirking at them should end.

If something is funny, it is funny. If it isn't it isn't. Dola or not. Humor good.

3) Attempt to engage other people in arguments - don't just disagree for the sake of expressing your opinion.

Isn't disagreeing and expressing your opinion on the topic of discussion engaging in the discussion? Why is that inferior to point-counter point? I have no idea what you are trying to say here.

4) Realize that some of the best threads come about when people aren't supporting an agenda, but rather when everyone in it is just adding to the whole. The thread may not go where anyone intended, but at least it won't turn into petty squabling.

Okay, I realize that. I don't think there is anything wrong with people getting heated during argument. If it becomes personal it crosses the line, IMO. Whenever this happens I take myself out of the conversation and, if need be, settle it privately. I agree with this point.

5) Recognize that post counts mean nothing (with the exception of QS - whose post count is truly astounding given the effort he puts into most of his writings on this board).

Post counts don't mean anything to me and I would be surprised if there are very many people who spend a whole lot of time worrying about it.

I realize that it is not your intention, but with posts like these you come off as very stuffy and condescending. I know that all you are trying to do is improve the board, but the board belongs to everyone. If it is not up to your satisfaction you certainly have the right to express that, but your choice of method and selection of words does you no favors. You are more likely to make people angry and turn people off than change the board to your liking.

[Iceberg]

im with kodos the board is doing quite well. no major trolling as of late either which has been a pleasant change

[Qwikshot]

The board's fine.

[vex]

I like how the board is at the moment.

[Ksyrup]

I also think the board is fine. One of the best things about it is that we have our own language, so that when someone throws out a Dola here, a Mr. Nibbles there, an asshat everywhere (sorry, I just got through singing Old MacDonald with the Kid and it hasn't quite worn off yet), it adds a whole new level to the conversation. That might annoy some, and if it's overused it can wear thin, but I enjoy my time here.

Of course, I might be part of the problem, so what do I know?

[Jets80]

Originally posted by John Galt
Often people write just to put in "their 2 cents" when it really isn't even worth a penny.

If that.......

[GoldenEagle]

The board is funny, so I like it.

I think we also have some very serious questions and some good thought on this board.

And yes, the old Sideline board had its fair share of these posts.

[Anrhydeddu]

The FOFC Bronze Medalist Poster

I don't think so. Check your math, Bucc+Anysomething.

[stkelly52]

I will say that the "hey Brad" thing always bugs me. You will post a good reply, and the thread is thread jacked by 10 "hey Brads"

[McSweeny]

psssh this board is fine

[Jets80]

Hey stkelly52

[Blackadar]

Not to nitpick, but I've been around since Day 1 (or 2 or 3) - the old Sideline days. FOF was still new and there was a lot of discussion about the game itself. But the newer games just built off the old - there's not that much new anymore. Plus, when just a couple of hundred of us had FOF, we all felt like we were "in" on a secret game. That feeling has been gone for quite a while.

However, when I took over as Mod of the Sideline, it was a horrendous place. Lots of flaming, profanity and general nastyness. We've been through ups and downs since then, but I think we're doing pretty well today. The group has changed over many times, but we still have a pretty decent level of conversation. It's migrated away from the game, but that's to be expected. Skydog and Ryan have done a helluva job in keeping the noise level to a low roar.

All in all, I think the board is doing exceptionally well. Maybe this IS another "golden age".

[Senator]

Without Hell Atlantic and Jason Tobias here on a daily basis, can this place ever have a golden age again.

Dean Houston slapped a kid.

[dacman]

Anrhydeddu
Resident Curmudgeon


When did this happen? That title fit HA, but Bucc/Arny? I don't think so. JMHO.

[Anrhydeddu]

Originally posted by Blackadar
However, when I took over as Mod of the Sideline, it was a horrendous place. Lots of flaming, profanity and general nastyness.

This is probably where someone should chime in and say that John Galt did not know what he was talking about in the first post and then I would reply saying, did he ever?

[GoldenEagle]

I think I should be Resident Soccer Advocate

[Anrhydeddu]

Originally posted by dacman
Anrhydeddu
Resident Curmudgeon


When did this happen? That title fit HA, but Bucc/Arny? I don't think so. JMHO.

HA has become too one dimensional, imo. On the other hand, I have learned to diversify and become cranky about everything, from FOF to music bands to NFL QBs to whatever the hype and flavor of the month is. But I do give respect to HA for being the best at what he does.

[QuikSand]

A well-intended post, but destined to meet this fate.

I really don't think that the visible post counts add much to the forum. On the old Sideline site, you could see someone's, but only if you clicked their profile page. Now that they are out in the open, I think it does promote a little more attention than they merit.

But I don't think it's time to worry about the health of the board. It's just different... that's all. Not inherently better or worse than before, just different. There are plenty of people here now who weren't here in 2000 who are very valuable contributors to the current community. I think part of the nostalgia comes from inevitable selective memories, myself included.

Hey, this site isn't going to be perfect for anyone. There's plenty here that I don't get much out of, and I've pretty much dropped out of the so-called political stuff completely (after once getting into that a good deal). There is less "game analysis" here than before, but that's perhaps more supply-and-demand than a reflection on the community itself.

The "good old days" may be gone, but there can be plenty of "good new days" yet to come. There's an awful lot here that remains worthwhile, I think.

[Craptacular]

My ratio of total posts to substance-filled, high-importance posts is probably near the bottom of the barrel. Anyone want to go through all 3300+ of them and pick out the good ones so my meaningful post count can be properly calculated? Thanks.

[Kodos]

Crappie, I looked, and couldn't find a one...

[Kodos]

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
I don't think so. Check your math, Bucc+Anysomething.

I guess I really do care now. It was easier to adopt an "I don't care" attitude when I was a big medalist...

[JPhillips]

Isn't it great how everything from the past looks perfect? Just like the 50s. They were really great. Unless you were black. Or an unwed mother. Or in Korea. Or hunted by McCarthey. Or scared by duck and cover drills. Etc etc etc

[SplitPersonality1]

Originally posted by JPhillips
Isn't it great how everything from the past looks perfect? Just like the 50s. They were really great. Unless you were black. Or an unwed mother. Or in Korea. Or hunted by McCarthey. Or scared by duck and cover drills. Etc etc etc

JPhillips hit it on the head I think. The past almost always seems better than the present. Must be human nature I guess.

Interestingly enough, when I first joined this board, way back in March of 2001, there was a very similar thread that spoke of the "good old days" and "why are we fighting all the time" et cetera, et cetera.

In one of my very first posts, I commented on how 95% of the posts/threads were just fine, and how this was perhaps the best online community I have ever been a part of.

Two years later...and I still feel the same way.

I've seen people get help with jobs, vacation tips, relationship tips (not just HA's rantings), good in depth sports analyses, stupid jokes, political discussions of all kinds and more. I traveled with my Mom a few weeks ago and I was telling her a bit about this board and she was quite impressed. She is part of a home crafters message board and it sounds like we are more civil and have better discussions then they do.

Sorry for the rambling post. This thread just brought back memories of the good old days. Then and now.

Just my two cents.

[Craptacular]

Originally posted by Kodos
Crappie, I looked, and couldn't find a one...

You alien-type folk sure read fast.

[3ric]

Let's also not forget that this is February, generally considered to be the slowest month of the year in terms of sports. Irrelevant yada yada tends to run rampant in February at FOFC, every year.

Also, with the upcoming games (CM4, OOTP5) the discussions will pretty soon turn on-topic again (and I consider ALL sport sims as on-topic).

[Fritz]

Rule 1) We have to be substantial.
Rule 2) We can't gay bash


any more I am missing?

[Blackadar]

3) You must pay due homage to all moderators, past and present

[Fritz]

d'oh, thanks for the save.

[AgPete]

Well, I registed not long after you did and have been a lurker myself. The only difference I notice comparing today to my first day here is that FOF doesn't spark many conversations now. FOF4 came out recently but it was essentially the same game with some new features added, not enough to generate many new topics. This board is still great for the primary reason I've kept reading it, it's an unofficial grouping of sports sims fans. Sometimes I don't read this place for months but I always come back because it's the best place on the internet to get caught up with sports sims and other text-based games, especially since most titles have very little press or advertising.

[stkelly52]

Much along the same line as what Splitpersonality said. After always hearing me talk about my message board, my wife tried to joing a message board, but she has not be able to find one that even comes close to FOFC. She says that this is they type of board that she would like, even though she doesn't know squat about football.