Defensive knows all my plays

[Sgran]

The defense does not know all my plays! It does not! Not that many! Fix this dam bug!!!!

Edit: I am not saying I should win every game. But when I get the "defense looked familiar with that play" in the second quarter it ruins the game on Solevision because I know I'm going to lose. I have a quarterback who knows every formation and an "Excellent" playcalling OC. this should not be happening.

[Chubby]

What?

Are you sure you aren't running only like 3 formtaions?

[Sgran]

I'm sure. I don't do anything that fancy in my gameplan. This is happening over and over again. I understand if it happens to my rookie QB who only knows 8 formations, but this has happened twice in a row to QBs who know 16 formations.

[Chubby]

Well that's your fault then, not the games. You can't run just a couple of formations and not expect the defense to become familiar with the plays.

[Nogram]

Welcome to the reason that I no longer play this game.

Sure Jim is a god according to most people, but he has never provided any reasonable guidance on how to avoid this. I would prefer an option that allows you to turn this off.

I call my own plays and think that a reasonable assumption would be....the second time I run the same play in a game (and every time after that) I get the message, but HOW CAN A DEFENSE BE FAMILIAR WITH A PLAY IF I HAVEN'T RUN IT IN THE GAME?!?!?! (And btw, I have tested this and I have seen no indication that it is based on what you have run in previous games in the season).

Nogram

[Sgran]

Originally Posted by Chubby

Well that's your fault then, not the games. You can't run just a couple of formations and not expect the defense to become familiar with the plays.

I meant that I am sure that I don't only run 3 formations.

[Celeval]

Mix up your run directions / runners; and pass distances as well. It doesn't matter if you run 20 times out of 12 different formations, but if they're all HB carries to the right/left of the center, you'll get it.

[Rizon]

From my experience, the defense will be familiar with your play-calling if you run the same play (or variations) multiple times per game. Like Celeval said, if you you keep running to the left all game the AI is going to figure it out. If you keep throwing 7 yard passes, the AI is going to figure it out. I never call the same play twice per game, and I also (try) to keep my number of runs matching my number of passes. All formations should be evenly balanced the entire game. The computer will figure it out if you only pass from Single Back and only run from I-Formation, and also, say, only pass deep from Single-3WR and only pass to your TE in Pro Set. The AI is no genius by any means, but I believe it is programmed to spot patterns. I mix up my plays like crazy, like passing deep on 1st down from I-Formation, and running from Single-3WR on 3rd and 13 with great success. I usually find myself in the top 10 in most offensive categories by calling my own plays. Sometimes I think it is TOO easy.

I believe that when that "familiar" message is displayed the FIRST time you call that SPECIFIC play (EG: RB20sweep Left, ProSlot), a similar play was called that resulted in success earlier in the game. I see that message if I pick a brand new play, and throw to my starting FL for say, the 15th time that game. You should also see that play if the defense is fairly certain you'll run it, like being down 21 points in the 4th quarter and throwing long. The defense SHOULD be "familiar", and expect it "common", for you to throw long.

Try to use my Excel sheet to call your plays evenly. Use it for about 6 games, then come back and see if it helped. Rizon's FOF Plays

[Sgran]

I don't have this problem in SP, where i chart my plays carefully, but in MP, and always on pass plays. There are two problems: 1. that it shouldn't be happening this much with a good offensive coordinator and a QB who knows many formations and 2. that it ruins the Solevision because as soon as you fall behind and see that dreaded message, you know you are going to lose.

[Julio Riddols]

Another thing that may affect this, IMO, is your team tendencies for certain situations. (Running more when ahead, throwing more when behind, etc.)

If you tend to throw certain distances a lot, run in one direction a lot, etc.. I wouldn't be surprised to see the opposing defense figure it out easily. I'd say I see that message about equal amounts in my SP and MP careers and its usually no more than 4 or 5 times a game after we've either gotten a big lead and started running, or fallen behind late and started throwing. I see it in other situations too, but not very often at all. Also, it has never been a guaranteed loss when these things happen to me.

Something you mentioned is that you spend a lot more time on your SP gameplans than you do for MP and you don't get the same issue that way.. I would think you basically solved your own problem with that. Just spend a little more time gameplanning for MP.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Well, that's pretty interesting because in MP Solevision, as an offense I have rarely seen this message. And in some games it's never. So, you may think you're mixing it up, but you're not. I by no means say this game's perfect, but I don't believe this is a bug at all.

On another note, is it perhaps possible that the game keeps track of plays called in previous games (like real life), so that even if it is the first or second time you have ever called the play in the game, the defense has indeed seen this many times before on game film. Maybe the game is deeper than you think (or maybe not). That's a way to rationalize it anyways.

Either way, I rarely see this so I don't think it's a problem at all. Usually, I only see it at game's end when I am down by 21 points and my team is throwing long pass after long pass.

[Sgran]

I'm going to start tracking this religiously in my MPs (i'm too lazy to test it in SP) since it seems to be a death sentence, and therefore my first priority is to avoid it.
I got it again, albeit this time with my rookie QB who only knows 10 formations. It was in a 0-0 game at the 12:38 mark in the 3rd quarter. I knew I was cooked, even after going up 6-0. Sure enough, I lost 7-6, and got the "message" twice more. My QB only threw 37 times the whole game, and the first message came after just 26 passes (i counted plays with penalties and sacks). I'm using the recommended game plans, and none of my offensive coordinators are idiots. I guess I'll just have to crank up the running plays.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by 6.0e Fix List

Rewrite pieces of the logic for determining how well the staff recognizes play-calling trends during a game.

Your premise of the "familiar" message being the kiss of death is just plain dead wrong. The very first box score I pulled up to check, I got the message twice on passes in the first half, but my QB managed to go 21 for 33 for the game, and we won. (We never got the message in the second half, by the way.) The second one I pulled up was the same deal: got it in the first half, still won a close game. I didn't specially select these box scores, either. I just randomly pulled up a season, and selected my two closest wins of that year. Given the way I game plan, I'd venture a guess that I get the "familiar" message at least once at some point in over half of my wins in 6.0e.

My thinking is that as the game goes along, the AI starts "guessing" (via a dice roll against defensive play diagnosis ratings, probably--modified by the predictability of your play types, directions, formations, etc.) as to what you're going to call. Between game logs and Solevision, I've examined at least 50 6.0e games, and I've yet to see anything that really alarms me.

It's quite possible (OK, likely....) that I'm the person who gave Jim the hardest time over the play-calling recognition logic in 6.0d. That being said, I have to say that I haven't seen anything in 6.0e to raise a red flag, and that's certainly not due to a lack of looking.

[CraigSca]

Hi, my team lost and I don't think it's fair. To back this up, I have a very small data sample loaded with hearsay. Can you fix this please? kk thx bye

[marcmoustache]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

Hi, my team lost and I don't think it's fair. To back this up, I have a very small data sample loaded with hearsay. Can you fix this please? kk thx bye

I think that's slightly unfair on sgran. From my experience in 3 MP leagues, this is most pertinent when you are behind and chasing the game, at which point you tend to go to the pass more and deeper (this is impacted by your gameplan adjustments and the setting for how long to maintain those adjustments).

I know that if I'm leading by 14 pts and I see that message when playing defense then I'm likely to see out the win, the converse is true if trailing.

I think it comes down to wider questions about the solevision commentary and what exactly it is telling us (I need to pose some questions on that shortly).

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by marcmoustache

I think that's slightly unfair on sgran. From my experience in 3 MP leagues, this is most pertinent when you are behind and chasing the game, at which point you tend to go to the pass more and deeper (this is impacted by your gameplan adjustments and the setting for how long to maintain those adjustments).

I know that if I'm leading by 14 pts and I see that message when playing defense then I'm likely to see out the win, the converse is true if trailing.

I think it comes down to wider questions about the solevision commentary and what exactly it is telling us (I need to pose some questions on that shortly).

It's not unfair at all.

With regard to your example, if you're leading by 14 points, you're likely to see out the win, no matter what message you see.

And duh, if you're down 14, and throwing it a lot more, the defense *will* be expecting it. As announcers love to say, "the defensive linemen can peel back their ears and go after him now!" Additionally, the DBs will start to look pass only.

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by marcmoustache

I think that's slightly unfair on sgran.

I don't think so. He called it a bug, but presented specious data as fact. Look, we all remember the one time we get screwed by something, but we fail to remember the 50 times it didn't occur. If he went back and said, "In the last 50 games I..." and presented that data without skewing the results, I think he might be on to something.

[Sgran]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

I don't think so. He called it a bug, but presented specious data as fact. Look, we all remember the one time we get screwed by something, but we fail to remember the 50 times it didn't occur. If he went back and said, "In the last 50 games I..." and presented that data without skewing the results, I think he might be on to something.

Fair enough. I wrote the original complaint in a fit of passion. It was rash and imprecise to call it a bug.
If it is, as some say, them guessing your play, then that's different, but that's not what the message says. The message suggests that they've seen this play already and your dimwitted playcalling is why that play never had a chance, which suggests my playcalling is lopsided, or my OC is weak, or my QB doesn't know enough formations.
It just started to bug me because I was seeing it early in games, which signalled the beginning of the end. Sky Dog says it happens and he still wins. He probably wins a lot more games than I do (I think my career record is 11-21). We'll see. I am going to try to balance my attack to the extreme and see if I get better results.