U of M is at it again

[PSUColonel]

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll...368/1003/METRO

[DeToxRox]

Dearborn is the highest populated muslim city in the United States, its why they do it and not UM Ann Arbor

[PSUColonel]

using public funds?

[cartman]

From the article:

"To my knowledge, none of the students or staff have made any complaints about the foot-washing area," Walid said.

"This whole thing came to light through some right-wing Islama-phobic bloggers that want to promulgate the idea that the university is being Islama-fied."

[cartman]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

using public funds?

Again from the article:

Gallagher argued taxpayer money won't be used for the foot baths because the $100,000 total bill for the bathrooms is underwritten by a fee students pay for building maintenance.

[PSUColonel]

and I assume all of the students who pay this fee are muslims?



what if the issue was over a crucifix?...would you be defending this as much?


The last time I checked, U of M was a public University

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

and I assume all of the students who pay this fee are muslims?

$100,000 spread over a significant student population is not much of a cost at all. Further, if it supports diversity throughout, I have no problem with such.

what if the issue was over a crucifix?...would you be defending this as much?

If that is the will of the student population, then it should not be a problem.

The last time I checked, U of M was a public University

The idea of church and state being seperated is a very weak argument. If you don't think so, go to your local courthouse and see how many religious insignias you see presented.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

and I assume all of the students who pay this fee are muslims?

Again from the article:

The university of 8,600 students doesn't track them by religion, Gallagher said.

would you be defending this as much?

Please point out where I have come out for or against this. All of my posts have simply pointed out the answers to your questions, which are contained in the article.

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

$100,000 spread over a significant student population is not much of a cost at all. Further, if it supports diversity throughout, I have no problem with such.



If that is the will of the student population, then it should not be a problem.



The idea of church and state being seperated is a very weak argument. If you don't think so, go to your local courthouse and see how many religious insignias you see presented.

I actually agree about the seperation of church and state, but it seems people only have a problem when it pertains to Christianity. I don't care how much it costs though, it's the principle of the issue. Why should non muslims be paying for something they won't be using. I see this project as non essential, and a waste of money...especially for those who don't give two craps about islam.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

Why should non muslims be paying for something they won't be using. I see this project as non essential, and a waste of money...especially for those who don't give two craps about islam.

I think you'd be surprised at what you pay for and how much of it is used for many things that have nothing to do with you or for you. That being said, I think this is a very worthwhile initiative, no matter what the religion. If a significant number of students want a large crucfix on campus for the same cost, I see no problem with that. I see no problem with celebrating and respecting each of the religions. Further, as part of a nation of tolerance (which as unrealistic as it sounds, I hope and wish it to be), then there should be education and respect for all types of religions, faiths, and beliefs, whether wanted or not.

Thus, the eleven dollars that these "non-Muslims" would spend on installation of the foot-baths actually serves an educational purpose as it forces students to recognize and see a difference in belief structure.

[PSUColonel]

I also find it laughable that the ACLU won't get involved in this(likely because it fits their liberal template) when if the issue were in fact over a Christian religious debate, they'd be there in a flash.

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

I think you'd be surprised at what you pay for and how much of it is used for many things that have nothing to do with you or for you. That being said, I think this is a very worthwhile initiative, no matter what the religion. If a significant number of students want a large crucfix on campus for the same cost, I see no problem with that. I see no problem with celebrating and respecting each of the religions. Further, as part of a nation of tolerance (which as unrealistic as it sounds, I hope and wish it to be), then there should be education and respect for all types of religions, faiths, and beliefs, whether wanted or not.

Thus, the eleven dollars that these "non-Muslims" would spend on installation of the foot-baths actually serves an educational purpose as it forces students to recognize and see a difference in belief structure.

Again, it's the principle, not the cost.

[WVUFAN]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

I think you'd be surprised at what you pay for and how much of it is used for many things that have nothing to do with you or for you. That being said, I think this is a very worthwhile initiative, no matter what the religion. If a significant number of students want a large crucfix on campus for the same cost, I see no problem with that. I see no problem with celebrating and respecting each of the religions. Further, as part of a nation of tolerance (which as unrealistic as it sounds, I hope and wish it to be), then there should be education and respect for all types of religions, faiths, and beliefs, whether wanted or not.

Thus, the eleven dollars that these "non-Muslims" would spend on installation of the foot-baths actually serves an educational purpose as it forces students to recognize and see a difference in belief structure.

I guarantee you that if Christians wanted to set up something similar strictly for religious purpose, people would be all over this. But because it's a "minority" religion, that's ok.

If I were a U of M student, I'd be pissed that my money is paying for this. If Muslim students want to set up something like this, they should be able to, as long as they used their own money.

[cartman]

Where in the article does it state that only Muslims can use the foot washing stations? The stations in and of themselves do not hold any special significance to the Muslim religion. If you are Catholic, does the sink you wash your hands in before taking communion have any religious significance? This is the same thing. A Muslim isn't going to be offended if someone wearing sandals (which quite a few college students wear) uses the stations to wash their feet.

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by cartman

Where in the article does it state that only Muslims can use the foot washing stations? The stations in and of themselves do not hold any special significance to the Muslim religion. If you are Catholic, does the sink you wash your hands in before taking communion have any religious significance? This is the same thing. A Muslim isn't going to be offended if someone wearing sandals (which quite a few college students wear) uses the stations to wash their feet.

Please!!.....Ok if that's the way you want it, I'll hang out in those baths all day reading my Bible...let's see what happens.

[sabotai]

If they were using the money to build a mosque, or to buy students prayer blankets, then that would be totally different. There is nothing inherently religious about foot baths. This is a non-issue.

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by sabotai

If they were using the money to build a mosque, or to buy students prayer blankets, then that would be totally different. There is nothing inherently religious about foot baths. This is a non-issue.

Then why are they being built?...It's humerous that the ACLU won't get involved in this case.

[WVUFAN]

Originally Posted by cartman

Where in the article does it state that only Muslims can use the foot washing stations? The stations in and of themselves do not hold any special significance to the Muslim religion. If you are Catholic, does the sink you wash your hands in before taking communion have any religious significance? This is the same thing. A Muslim isn't going to be offended if someone wearing sandals (which quite a few college students wear) uses the stations to wash their feet.

The stated purpose of that footstation in that article is so it's easier for Muslims to wash their feet before prayer. I think that's fine, but I don't think it's right for EVERYONE to pay for it. If Muslim students wish to have something like this, they should foot the bill for it.

Again, if this were some sort of Christian thing, there would be huge protests that student money is being used for it.

[WVUFAN]

Originally Posted by sabotai

If they were using the money to build a mosque, or to buy students prayer blankets, then that would be totally different. There is nothing inherently religious about foot baths. This is a non-issue.

Wrong, according to the article ..

"The university claims the stations are needed to accommodate Muslim students, who must ritually wash their bodies -- including the feet -- up to five times each day before prayers ... "

The stations are SPECIFICALLY being built for the purpose of a religious rite (the washing of feet before a Muslim prayer). In this case, foot baths are very much focal to the point.

[PSUColonel]

From a Blog written by Debbie Schlussel:


When I asked why the footbaths were being installed, Gallagher told me that this is "an accommodation to a significant portion of our student body and their friends and visitors in accordance with our mission." He said that it is a growing trend with Boston University, Cal State-Fullerton, University of Wisconsin-Madison, and Washington University of St. Louis, all installing footbaths. "We wanted to be part of that trend in accommodating Muslim students."

But when I asked Gallagher what portion of the U-M Dearborn is Muslim, he said that the most recent information the school has is from a 2004 survey of incoming freshman. The survey only identified 11% of students as Muslims, whereas 37% of incoming freshman were Roman Catholic. When I asked if there was any accommodation or money spent on Catholic students, he could not identify any.

Gallagher said the foot baths are the result of "years of ongoing negotiations with the Muslim Student Association." The Chicago Tribune exposed the radical Muslim Student Association (MSA) as an American branch of the Egyptian terrorist group, Muslim Brotherhood, which took part in the murder of Egyptian President Anwar El-Sadat as well as the shootings at the Temples at Luxor.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by WVUFAN

The stated purpose of that footstation in that article is so it's easier for Muslims to wash their feet before prayer. I think that's fine, but I don't think it's right for EVERYONE to pay for it. If Muslim students wish to have something like this, they should foot the bill for it.

Again, if this were some sort of Christian thing, there would be huge protests that student money is being used for it.

Again, from the article, the funds to build the bathrooms come from student fees. It is impossible to tell if 25% of the student body is Muslim, because they don't track enrollment by religion. Additionally, the foot bath stations are non-religious. Yes, the more than likely will be predominately used by Muslims, but they are not used exclusively by Muslims. I don't know if you have ever seen a foot washing station, but it is basically a faucet close to the floor over a drain. It is simply another bathroom fixture. There is nothing inherently "Muslim" about a foot washing station, just as there isn't anything inherently "European" about a bidet. You are making this sound like a foot washing station is comparable to a holy water fountain or baptismal font, when that could not be further from the truth.

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by cartman

Again, from the article, the funds to build the bathrooms come from student fees. It is impossible to tell if 25% of the student body is Muslim, because they don't track enrollment by religion. Additionally, the foot bath stations are non-religious. Yes, the more than likely will be predominately used by Muslims, but they are not used exclusively by Muslims. I don't know if you have ever seen a foot washing station, but it is basically a faucet close to the floor over a drain. It is simply another bathroom fixture. There is nothing inherently "Muslim" about a foot washing station, just as there isn't anything inherently "European" about a bidet. You are making this sound like a foot washing station is comparable to a holy water fountain or baptismal font, when that could not be further from the truth.

But when I asked Gallagher what portion of the U-M Dearborn is Muslim, he said that the most recent information the school has is from a 2004 survey of incoming freshman. The survey only identified 11% of students as Muslims, whereas 37% of incoming freshman were Roman Catholic. When I asked if there was any accommodation or money spent on Catholic students, he could not identify any.

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by cartman

Again, from the article, the funds to build the bathrooms come from student fees. It is impossible to tell if 25% of the student body is Muslim, because they don't track enrollment by religion. Additionally, the foot bath stations are non-religious. Yes, the more than likely will be predominately used by Muslims, but they are not used exclusively by Muslims. I don't know if you have ever seen a foot washing station, but it is basically a faucet close to the floor over a drain. It is simply another bathroom fixture. There is nothing inherently "Muslim" about a foot washing station, just as there isn't anything inherently "European" about a bidet. You are making this sound like a foot washing station is comparable to a holy water fountain or baptismal font, when that could not be further from the truth.

then why do they need to be built?

[cartman]

The blog says that Gallagher quoted percentages, but in the article, Gallagher is quoted as saying they don't track enrollment by religious affiliation. Something doesn't add up there.

[WVUFAN]

Originally Posted by cartman

Again, from the article, the funds to build the bathrooms come from student fees. It is impossible to tell if 25% of the student body is Muslim, because they don't track enrollment by religion.

My point is that is shouldn't matter what part of the student body is Muslim. Student fees on a public university should not be used for religious purposes.

Additionally, the foot bath stations are non-religious. Yes, the more than likely will be predominately used by Muslims, but they are not used exclusively by Muslims.

I consider them a religious tool in the same fashion as a holy water fountain . Neither would be built if not for religious needs. Seriously, would $100,000 have been spent on foot stations if NOT for Muslim student needs?

Again, I'm not saying Muslim students shouldn't be able to have foot stations installed. I'm saying that the Muslim student organizations should be the ones paying for it. Whether non-Muslim students can or can't use it is irrevelent. The purpose of them is for the Muslim rite of prayer, just like a holy water fountain is used by Catholics for much the same reason.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by WVUFAN

The purpose of them is for the Muslim rite of prayer

They are being built because a large number of students are washing their feet in the sinks. Why they are washing their feet in the sink is irrelevent. There is a health and safety issue here that the school must address, and this is how they are addressing it.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by WVUFAN

I consider them a religious tool in the same fashion as a holy water fountain . Neither would be built if not for religious needs. Seriously, would $100,000 have been spent on foot stations if NOT for Muslim student needs?

Again, I'm not saying Muslim students shouldn't be able to have foot stations installed. I'm saying that the Muslim student organizations should be the ones paying for it. Whether non-Muslim students can or can't use it is irrevelent. The purpose of them is for the Muslim rite of prayer, just like a holy water fountain is used by Catholics for much the same reason.

The $100K was for the whole construction project. $25K of that was for the foot washing stations.

I agree that they wouldn't have been included if not for the requests of the Muslim students. If there had simply had a line-item in the construction that 3 of the sinks in each bathroom would have been built only 6 inches off of the ground, no one would have ever heard about this. The article doesn't mention it, but by your line of reasoning, if showers are part of the construction as well, they shouldn't be built either, since general body cleaning is part of the prayer ritual, and it you said it doesn't matter if a non-Muslim can use the bathroom fixture or not.

[Ksyrup]

I really have no comment on the main issue here, but I'd just like to point out that I don't understand the delineation between "student fees" and "taxpayer's money." The standard is simply the use of state/public funds, which would include funds generated both from state taxes and from state-mandated fees of any kind. AFAIK, once paid to the state, they become state funds, the use of which can be an issue with something like this. Again, I'm not really getting into whether the use here is proper, but this notion that the funds are protected because they are student fees doesn't seem to work. But this is hardly my area of expertise, so I could be wrong.

[Passacaglia]

So if I don't wash my hands, should I not have to pay for the sinks?

[st.cronin]

I have no problem whatsoever with this.

[duckman]

Originally Posted by sabotai

They are being built because a large number of students are washing their feet in the sinks. Why they are washing their feet in the sink is irrelevent. There is a health and safety issue here that the school must address, and this is how they are addressing it.

Bingo.

[Drake]

If this really bothers some students, they can always leave some dead fetal pigs in the sinks.

Problem solved.

[Passacaglia]

U of M is at it again

Has U of M done this before, or tried to do this before? I mean, it's not like I still live there or anything, but I've never heard about it.

[RendeR]

I am constantly stunned and amazed at the unbridled bigotry shown by certain persons on this board...and I'm ashamed that my home states primary college is represented by one of them.

[Radii]

My initial inclination is to agree with WVUFan here, the foot washing stations themselves are probably fine but I have an issue with the funding. I don't really understand the distinction between student fees and taxpayer dollars(what KSyrup brought up earlier), but common sense tells me this should piss me off a bit. Taking money that is collected by a public university and using it for a project that clearly has a religous reason and context is not something I'd be ok with if I was a student, I don't care what the religon is.


Note, btw, that I'm agreeing with WVUFan here, not PSUColonel. PSU seems to want to use this story to attack those who attack Christianity based on his comments, and I'm not ok with that at all. "What if this were a crucifix" and "espicially those who don't give two craps about islam" really, really don't come off well in this argument, but on the whole I have a problem w/ this from a church and state issue.

[RendeR]

See the point here isn't that it is specifically for a religious reason, it is a SANTITATION issue. The students are going to wash their feet, wether they install these things or not. however if they do NOT install them, this large group of people are going to wash their feet in the sinks which directly impacts EVERY student and faculty member at the school.

There is NO issue whatsoever with the funding of these installations coming from the maintenance fees the students pay.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Radii

I don't really understand the distinction between student fees and taxpayer dollars(what KSyrup brought up earlier), but common sense tells me this should piss me off a bit. Taking money that is collected by a public university and using it for a project that clearly has a religous reason and context is not something I'd be ok with if I was a student, I don't care what the religon is.

I actually have no knowledge of the law at all on this, but I'll see if I can defend this. Student fees are for student activities. Religious practice is a student activity, something that the students have decided, with no urging of the administration, to do.

[BrianD]

I agree that this sounds like much ado about nothing. Schools have to cater to their students. If the students are creating a sanitation problem because of the need to wash their feet, a foot washing station doesn't seem so terrible.

Not related, but every bar I've ever been at that contains a sand volleyball court has foot washing stations. If people need to wash their feet, give them a way to do it.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

I actually have no knowledge of the law at all on this, but I'll see if I can defend this. Student fees are for student activities. Religious practice is a student activity, something that the students have decided, with no urging of the administration, to do.

This money is coming from the maintence fees, which is simply the school taking money to upkeep the school, the students have no say and no rights in any way as to HOW the school uses that money. Its for upkeep of the campus and this project is simply that, upgrading the campus facilities.

[Izulde]

Or to look at it from another standpoint, how else would you solve the problem of students washing their feet in sinks?

Ban them from washing their feet in sinks?

Okay, you do that, then you need to find some way to monitor them so they don't *gasp* wash their feet in the sinks! Then there's the costs associated with punishing them for washing their feet, appeals, etc...

Given that these would also be recurring costs rather than largely being a one-off expense, from an economic standpoint, it makes sense to simply build the foot washing stations and be done with it.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by cartman

The blog says that Gallagher quoted percentages, but in the article, Gallagher is quoted as saying they don't track enrollment by religious affiliation. Something doesn't add up there.

Do a google search of "Debbie Schlussel" and you will find all the answers. The fact that PSUColonel cites her says a lot about him. I was going to post some blog entries from her about the Virginia Tech shooting, but she apparently decided to delete her posts (and all the ridiculous things she said in her own comments section). Here were the links (hxxp://www.debbieschlussel.com/archives/2007/04/is_this_ismail.html and hxxp://www.debbieschlussel.com/archives/2007/04/who_is_the_asia.html). She kept posting about how the media was covering up the fact that the shooter was Muslim despite all evidence to the contrary and said some really ugly things to commenters who disagreed.

Mediamatters has a summary of a few incidents, but they really miss out on the completely offensive, totally insane things she said about Virginia Tech (which I read in real-time): hxxp://mediamatters.org/items/200705020006?src=item200705020006, hxxp://mediamatters.org/items/200704170006.

She is basically an Anne Coulter wannabe who will say ANYTHING to get attention.

[Drake]

Yeah, cuz washing your feet in the sink is so much more unsanitary than washing the hands you just wiped your ass with.

That said, if they want to put in foot washing stations for whatever reason, I don't really care. If it *really* honks people off to pay a few extra bucks a year for this, they can always go to another university.

[Telle]

So are you also up in arms about cafeterias at state university campuses providing kosher food during Passover?

And while the person quoted said he couldn't think of any specific accommodations for Catholic students, I betcha their cafeteria makes sure there's meatless meals available in the cafeteria on Fridays during Lent.

[Draft Dodger]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

Please!!.....Ok if that's the way you want it, I'll hang out in those baths all day reading my Bible...let's see what happens.

as long as it keeps you the fuck away from here, I'm all for it

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Telle

So are you also up in arms about cafeterias at state university campuses providing kosher food during Passover?

And while the person quoted said he couldn't think of any specific accommodations for Catholic students, I betcha their cafeteria makes sure there's meatless meals available in the cafeteria on Fridays during Lent.

Its a college cafeteria, they'll have vegetarian offerings every day.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

as long as it keeps you the fuck away from here, I'm all for it

[Telle]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Its a college cafeteria, they'll have vegetarian offerings every day.

True enough.. although they'll probably also be more likely to have fish on Fridays, especially during Lent. Because although it's not required to eat fish, it's traditional to do so. (mmmmm... beer battered fish fries...)

[-Mojo Jojo-]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

But when I asked Gallagher what portion of the U-M Dearborn is Muslim, he said that the most recent information the school has is from a 2004 survey of incoming freshman. The survey only identified 11% of students as Muslims, whereas 37% of incoming freshman were Roman Catholic. When I asked if there was any accommodation or money spent on Catholic students, he could not identify any.

These numbers and the fact that there does not appear to be a single Muslim on the university's administration completely undercut the idea that there is any meaninful church-state issue here. This is hardly the tyranny of the majority. This was a completely non-muslim administration at an overwhelmingly non-muslim university taking an action to make its campus more hospitable to Muslims. If you don't understand why this fails to implicate the same church-state concerns invoked by, say, Christian elected officials in Christian-dominated communities posting the 10 Commandments all over the place, then you fail to have a basic grasp of what the basic doctrine is and why it exists. No one here sought to exercise or abuse political power to favor their own beliefs. If you want to have an exceedingly strict view of what separation of church and state means, I guess you can find an issue here. But if you look to the purpose of the doctrine, there is absolutely no cause for concern.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

as long as it keeps you the fuck away from here, I'm all for it

see, this is why DD is cool.

[Karlifornia]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

then why do they need to be built?

This person is past the point of no return.
He has such a victim complex that it could only be described as "Not quite scary, but a little too disturbing to be funny".

Getting your ass chapped over foot-washing stations? Oh, the horror! THEY'RE TAKING OVER THE COUNTRY!!!!!
SOON I WILL NOT BE ABLE TO TURN AROUND WITHOUT SEEING FRESHLY WASHED MUSLIM FEET!!!!


AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!