Run Defense

[ace1914]

When running a 4-3, does blitzing an SOLB help with run defense?

[Hammer]

I think it probably increases the chance of both a stuffed play and a longer gain, so a gamble if you like.

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by Hammer

I think it probably increases the chance of both a stuffed play and a longer gain, so a gamble if you like.

Are you saying that based off a general feeling from watching games in solevision, or a gut feeling based off of real football?

[Hammer]

My opinion is based on FOF2004, I'm pretty sure it was the case in that version.

I am making the assumption it will transfer to FOF2007. I haven't looked into it deeply in this version.

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by Hammer

My opinion is based on FOF2004, I'm pretty sure it was the case in that version.

I am making the assumption it will transfer to FOF2007. I haven't looked into it deeply in this version.

In 2004, was it a study you did? Or just from watching a number of games? Or a IRL football point that you assume translates to the game? It's always been my feeling as well, but it was just a feeling more based on IRL football, I was wondering if you had more concrete numbers.

[Warhammer]

In FOF2k4 the 3-4 would get murdered in both run d and pass d if you did not send at least one player in on a blitz. No, I don't have any concrete numbers other than experience from when I first switched to a 3-4.

Actually, it doesn't matter who you send as long as you send someone.

[Hammer]

Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth

In 2004, was it a study you did? Or just from watching a number of games? Or a IRL football point that you assume translates to the game? It's always been my feeling as well, but it was just a feeling more based on IRL football, I was wondering if you had more concrete numbers.

I wouldn't go as far as to call it a study, but I did record data, yes. When I first started playing I scribbled down stats to try to work out the effects of certain things in the game, one of those was blitzing the run. All the data was based on a 4-3. It wasn't a huge amount of data, but enough for me to draw the conclusion I mentioned.

[Draft Dodger]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

In FOF2k4 the 3-4 would get murdered in both run d and pass d if you did not send at least one player in on a blitz. No, I don't have any concrete numbers other than experience from when I first switched to a 3-4.

Actually, it doesn't matter who you send as long as you send someone.

am I missing the relevance?

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

In FOF2k4 the 3-4 would get murdered in both run d and pass d if you did not send at least one player in on a blitz. No, I don't have any concrete numbers other than experience from when I first switched to a 3-4.

Actually, it doesn't matter who you send as long as you send someone.

OTOH, I ran a 3-4 with little blitzing and won two IHOF bowls. YMMV.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

OTOH, I ran a 3-4 with little blitzing and won two IHOF bowls. YMMV.

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

OTOH, I ran a 3-4 with little blitzing and won two IHOF bowls. YMMV.

Send me the plan then, I'd love to implement it.

Using 2k7 the blitz problem was fixed since the WOLB is considered to be part of the normal pass rush. It was a known problem with many defenses that to increase your success with the 3-4 that you had to boost your pass rush to 85+. This was because in 2k4 only the front three were considered part of the pass rush. If you wanted to get the same blitz as a 4-3 you had to blitz multiple men.

I guess in short, if you are having problems with the 3-4 and you don't have a high pass rush, bump it up to 85+. If you're way up there with the blitz and your defense still sucks try reducing it.

One key with the increased blitzing that I have noticed (nothing hard to back this up) is that you need to even your blitz %s out quite a bit. Don't have any one box be more than say 25% for your tendency. Otherwise the blitzing will get progressively worse. The upshot of all this is that you'll have quite a few players with a few sacks. That means cheaper resigning.

[cuervo72]

Like I keep detailed gameplans around...I just put the guys in the 3-4 and then set the blitz low. Not sure what else there is to tell really.

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

am I missing the relevance?

3-4, 4-3, who cares?

If the game assumes that the blitzing OLB is part of the front line since he is blitzing, it should make sense. I would assume that in that case you would want your best run defense guy blitzing, not necessarily your SOLB.

[Ben E Lou]

Wasn't it known that 3-4 noblitz worked wonders? I never ran it, but my understanding is that it was the defensive equivalent to the offense never short passing and just medium/long passing all the time.

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Like I keep detailed gameplans around...I just put the guys in the 3-4 and then set the blitz low. Not sure what else there is to tell really.

Only reason I said is that everytime I ever tried it with the blitz low, heck I'm not the only one, it was a hot topic in 2k4 on the boards here, I'd get stomped. Give up tons of yards passing and running. Turn the blitz rate up and get good results.

I think the reason for that under 2k4 was that the blitzer would be counted as part of the DL for calculation purposes. If you had great DL guys you could actually get away without blitzing then because your guys had the ratings to overcome only having three guys vs. four.

I'm actually kind of curious about this now because with the WOLB being considered part of the pass rush now, how will a 3-4 differ from a 4-3 in the engine? Aside from the players on the field, what else will be different?

[cuervo72]

Maybe you needed better players.

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Wasn't it known that 3-4 noblitz worked wonders? I never ran it, but my understanding is that it was the defensive equivalent to the offense never short passing and just medium/long passing all the time.

That's the first I've ever heard of it. I had played with it quite a bit and found that anything less than 50% you'd get mauled. 65% would yield decent results, but from 85% up, you could have a dominant defense. I preferred 95% because it always seemed that any big play I gave up I was not blitzing. Going up to 95% solved a lot of that.

I wonder if a 3-4 no blitz worked due to bugs? We knew that in 2k4 there were some wierd things that went on when you went 100% or 0% on things and maybe that is one of them. I seem to remember having issues when I went to 100% with the 3-4 on the blitz which is why I ratcheted it back to 95% (this dates back quite a bit, so I am a little fuzzy on it).

Having learned quite a bit of stuff about the engine from the run blocking thread, I wonder if that is what happened. I could see if you bump your blitz up and the LB was considered part of the line, that his run def. would help prevent the run game getting established. It would also help the pass rush. But, with Hartford (leaving Telluride out of this, they haven't had the talent the last few years on defense to tell if it is the system or the players) I had largely average defensive talent overall, but have been one of the league leaders in sacks regularly (1st once, 2nd twice in the last 4 seasons). The DL could not generate pressure by themselves, but the blitzers could bring pressure and did. This was all with only one DL guy with a 50+ (he was a 65+) and two LBs at 60+ (one was 70+ the other was 65+). At LB though, everyone was 50+ and had good ratings for run def, pass rush tech, and pass rush strength.

The problem that I was having though was that bringing all the pressure put a lot of stress on the DBs and I gave up a fair amount of deep balls because I was playing too much 2 Deep zone (my top 5 DBs were all 85+ in zone defense). Once I backed off into more 3 Deep, and slightly more 4 Deep, I took away the deep ball. I gave up more underneath stuff, but that was part of the defensive philosophy. I had the best 3rd down rate in the league on both sides of the ball.

Sorry for rambling, this has just gotten me thinking about this quite a bit and trying to find out why it has worked, etc.

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Maybe you needed better players.

Telluride does, Hartford had average overall rated players that were good at key stats (run defense for the DL, run defense and pass rush tech. at LB, zone defense in the secondary). Aside from one year during the rebuilding process there, we've only allowed more than 335 yards per game one year.

We had one year where we allowed fewer than 300 yards per game in a 3-4, but we forced a ton of turnovers that year. The other years we've been pretty mediocre in +/-. We had another year where we allowed fewer than 300 yards per game, but we were in a 4-3 that season.

Telluride was one of the top defensive teams when I first took over. Then the talent got old and I never got the DBs to really run my system effectively. Defensively, this is probably the 3rd best team I've had over at IHOF. That says more about how bad the defenses have been rather than how good this one is.

Defensively, Hartford is going to take a big step back because I lost my NT, one of my starting DEs, and my top backup at ILB (who played quite a bit). It will be interesting to see how the system holds up moving to 2k7. I think it will take quite a hit because the guys in the secondary will need other skills unlike in 2k4.

[Daimyo]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

In FOF2k4 the 3-4 would get murdered in both run d and pass d if you did not send at least one player in on a blitz. No, I don't have any concrete numbers other than experience from when I first switched to a 3-4.

Actually, it doesn't matter who you send as long as you send someone.

Not true at all. In fact in 2k4 you could easily get away with no blitz defenses in the 3-4. Blitzing seemed to affect who got credit for the pass rush much more than the magnitude of it.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

Using 2k7 the blitz problem was fixed since the WOLB is considered to be part of the normal pass rush.

Which really sucks, because the beauty of the 3-4 is that you can disguise WHO is rushing on that particular play.

[ace1914]

Uhh....is that a yes?