Any playcalling workaround?

[QuikSand]

In the 6.0e bugs/issues thread, there are a number of reports along these lines:

Originally Posted by beargrowlz

Defense goes into 3-4 w/Goal line defense on aggressive pass and pass calls at end of game despite setting Goal line usage to "0" under aggresive pass and pass.

I confess that I really haven't spent a lot of time watching the play-by-play of my own games to isolate what is going on, but it does seem pretty clear that the game is not implementing our schemes properly. I don't know whether it's a function of the late-game settings for teams that are far ahead/behind, or something else... but I really would prefer to *not* see my team slipping into goal line defense when we know the other team is going to try to pass... or see my teeam setting up with "jumbo" offensive packages when I need to throw the ball to catch up.

Is there anyone out there who has figured out any sort of work-around for this? Can we turn off whatever part of the AI that is "deciding" these unintended play calls are the right thing to do in these circumstances by making some sort of adjustment on one of the gameplanning screens? Anything? Or is this just something that we all have to live with... playcalling AI that basically retards our efforts to get the team to behave rationally?

I would *really* welcome anyone's insight into this issue, and what the casual FOF player can do about it, in an effort to see his teams make more sense.

[twothree]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

I would *really* welcome anyone's insight into this issue, and what the casual FOF player can do about it, in an effort to see his teams make more sense.

Not what you want to hear, but my only solution was to set aside FOF and wait for a patch that ends up fixing the problem.

[QuikSand]

Not a bad tactic, unless your only FOF interaction is in MP leagues, which I think is a fair number of us.

[Ben E Lou]

I can't say it with any degree of certainty, but my guess would be that using the tied settings for 50something minutes, bumping up hurry up, and eliminating clock-killing might help.

Of course, you'd have to sacrifice using any lead-related adjustments for nearly the entire game in order to do that, so I'm thinking that you'd lose more than you'd gain.

[beargrowlz]

One reasonable (read that to be: one that doesn't absolutely piss me off entirely) workaround I have found is to not call Goal line D outside of your own red zone (or if you prefer, not at all). It vastly (or entirely depending on your choice) reduces the amount it happens.

That said, I don't know if this has been mentioned elsewhere, but from watching tons of games, I think I understand why it happens - and strangely as it sounds, it is working as intended!?! -- sort of.

I think what is happening is that when the defense goes into AI controlled/prevent mode, it changes the selection on the Basic defensive Selection Chart from what was called (in this case Agg Run) to Pass or Agg Pass. Ok, it makes sense for Jim to code it that way and that seems to work.

But I think Jim either a) forgot to have the code change the selection on the Defensive Personnel Chart when that occurs; b) put code in that is supposed to change the call on the Defensive Personnel chart but for some reason is not working properly; or c) decided not to have the AI change a call on the defensive Personnel chart.

I guess only Jim knows which. But I hope it was A or B, because C kind of stinks.

Anyway, I digress, but I did post my workaround.



Cheers.

[QuikSand]

Just to add to what we think we know about this... I have yet to see an example of this sort of nonsense showing up in a game that's a true blowout. If your team is up 20 points in the waning moments, you seem to do okay... it's more of the marginal situations (up by one score or so, in the trailing minutes, playing defense) where the breakdown seems to happen.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by beargrowlz

I think what is happening is that when the defense goes into AI controlled/prevent mode, it changes the selection on the Basic defensive Selection Chart from what was called (in this case Agg Run) to Pass or Agg Pass. Ok, it makes sense for Jim to code it that way and that seems to work.

But I think Jim either a) forgot to have the code change the selection on the Defensive Personnel Chart when that occurs; b) put code in that is supposed to change the call on the Defensive Personnel chart but for some reason is not working properly; or c) decided not to have the AI change a call on the defensive Personnel chart.

I guess only Jim knows which. But I hope it was A or B, because C kind of stinks.

I don't think this is it. Check out what happened in the FOFL today. I'm Charleston. We were trailing 34-31, and this series of plays ensued:

Official time out for the two-minute warning.

Charleston: Strong formation, strength is right. The defense is in a 43 with goal-line personnel and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, keying aggressively on the run. Hinderliter is blitzing. 2-3-CHA38 (4Q: 02:00) Richie Herndon pass fell incomplete, intended for WR Les O'Grady. CB Steven Weadock knocked the ball out of his grasp.

Charleston: Pro formation with two tight ends, strength is left. The defense is in a 43 and 4-deep zone coverage, expecting the run. 3-3-CHA38 (4Q: 01:52) Richie Herndon pass completed to WR Bennie Perkins for 28 yards. Tackled by ILB Mitchell Weiler.

Charleston: Weak formation, strength is left. The defense is in a 43 with goal-line personnel and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, expecting the run. 1-10-SCA34 (4Q: 01:36) Richie Herndon pass completed to TE Dana Botello for 20 yards. Tackled by CB Randall Williamson. Botello gained 9 yards after the catch.

Charleston: Weak formation, strength is left. The defense is in a 43 with goal-line personnel and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, keying aggressively on the run. 1-10-SCA14 (4Q: 01:18) Richie Herndon pass completed to TE Dana Botello for 14 yards and a TOUCHDOWN! Botello gained 7 yards after the catch. Charleston 37, South Carolina 34

(4Q: 01:18) Extra point by Morris Robertson was good. Charleston 38, South Carolina 34

(4Q: 01:09) Morris Robertson kicked off 65 yards from the CHA30. Reuben Martins returned the ball 22 yards to the SCA27. Tackled by Jumbo Wilkins.

South Carolina: Single-Back formation, strength is right. The defense is in a 43 and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, expecting the run. 1-10-SCA27 (4Q: 01:01) Dixon Zhao pass completed to WR Michael Long for 46 yards. Tackled by S Ernest Renfrow. The receiver ran his route right over the middle of the field.

(4Q: 01:01) South Carolina called a time out.

South Carolina: Pro formation, strength is left. The defense is in a 43 with nickel personnel and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, keying aggressively on the pass. 1-10-CHA27 (4Q: 00:53) Dixon Zhao pass fell incomplete, intended for WR Ronald Morrison. CB Antonio Barber defended the pass. The quarterback threw away from the double coverage. PENALTY: South Carolina was called for Offensive Holding.

SCA used goal-line twice in the first 58 minutes of the game, but used it three times, with the lead, in my final four decisive plays, but also was expecting the run on all four plays, which probably helped us go 62 yards in four plays with the game on the line. Then, with SCA needing to go 73 yards in roughly a minute, we trot out our goal-line personnel, and promptly give up a 46-yard completion. However, after that play, we were in aggressive pass the rest of the way. I can't help but wonder if the defense isn't realizing the offense is in a do-or-die situation until 60 seconds are left.

[sjshaw]

So can we give Jim that loss for me, making SCA 0-1 and Jim 0-1?

[Dutch]

I can't answer the question of how to stop it from happening, but it might be so close to the end of the game that your gameplan is being thrown out the window (more or less) anyway. So your ability to control it may be severely hampered.

I'll venture a guess and say that it seems like some sort of formation trigger in the game for a defense that is in "desperation" mode vs a "time killing" offense. Just that it's being employed by the wrong defense in late game situations.

Official time out for the two-minute warning.

4-8-GEO38 (4Q: 02:00) Vance Hammett punted 38 yards. Omar Griffin called for a fair catch at the ORL24.

Orlando: Weak formation, strength is right. The defense is in a 43 and 1-deep, bump-and-run coverage, expecting the pass. Perkins and Rose are blitzing. 1-10-ORL24 (4Q: 01:53) Donnell Marchelewski ran inside the left guard for -1 yards. Tackled by OLB Terrance Rose, assisted by OLB Jesse Perkins.

Georgia called a time out.

Orlando: I formation, strength is left. The defense is in a 43 and 2-deep man-to-man coverage, expecting the run. 2-11-ORL23 (4Q: 01:44) Donnell Marchelewski ran inside the right guard for 1 yard. Tackled by OLB Chris Epley, assisted by S Paul Leska.

Georgia called a time out.

Orlando: Single-Back formation with trips receivers, strength is right. The defense is in a 43 with nickel personnel and 3-deep zone coverage, expecting the pass. 3-10-ORL24 (4Q: 01:36) Mejico Davis ran inside the left guard for 4 yards. Tackled by DT Cole Alexander, assisted by OLB Terrance Rose.

Georgia called a time out.

4-6-ORL28 (4Q: 01:29) Michael Helgeson punted 49 yards. Jackson Leber returned the kick 1 yard to the GEO24. PENALTY: Georgia was called for Holding on the Punt Return.

Georgia: I formation, strength is right. The defense is in a 43 with dime personnel and 3-deep zone coverage, expecting the pass. 1-10-GEO14 (4Q: 01:21) Nate Sutter pass fell incomplete, intended for WR Danny Hayes. DE Rolling Stone Richard hurried the quarterback into a bad throw.

Georgia: Single-Back formation with four receivers, strength is right. The defense is in a 43 with nickel personnel and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, keying aggressively on the pass. 2-10-GEO14 (4Q: 01:14) Nate Sutter pass completed to WR Jackson Leber for 43 yards. Tackled by OLB Johnnie Budd. The quarterback threw away from the double coverage.

Georgia: Pro formation, strength is left. The defense is in a 43 with goal-line personnel and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, keying aggressively on the pass. 1-10-ORL43 (4Q: 00:28) Nate Sutter spiked the ball to stop the clock.

Georgia: Pro formation, strength is left. The defense is in a 43 with goal-line personnel and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, expecting the pass. 2-10-ORL43 (4Q: 00:25) Nate Sutter pass fell incomplete, intended for WR Danny Hayes. CB Curtis Bruce knocked the ball out of his grasp. PENALTY: Orlando was called for Illegal Use of the Hands by the Defense.

Georgia: Pro formation, strength is right. The defense is in a 43 with goal-line personnel and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, keying aggressively on the pass. 1-10-ORL38 (4Q: 00:17) Nate Sutter pass fell incomplete, intended for WR Danny Hayes. DT Isaac Gard hurried the quarterback into a bad throw. The quarterback threw away from the double coverage.

Georgia: Strong formation, strength is left. The defense is in a 43 with goal-line personnel and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, keying aggressively on the pass. 2-10-ORL38 (4Q: 00:10) Nate Sutter pass was blocked at the line, intended for WR Charlie Brelsford. DT John Wickes blocked the pass. The quarterback threw away from the double coverage.

Georgia: Single-Back formation with four receivers, strength is left. The defense is in a 43 with dime personnel and 3-deep zone coverage, expecting the pass. 3-10-ORL38 (4Q: 00:01) Nate Sutter pass completed to RB Randy Reagor for 3 yards. Tackled by OLB Johnnie Budd, assisted by CB Bill Ross. The receiver ran his route right over the middle of the field.

Final Score: Orlando Knights 20, Georgia Gridlock 9

[gstelmack]

The one that's driven me nuts since 2k4 was actually this one:

Originally Posted by SkyDog

The defense is in a 43 and 4-deep zone coverage, expecting the run

Watching for the run, but 4 guys back deep in coverage?

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Dutch

I can't answer the question of how to stop it from happening, but it might be so close to the end of the game that your gameplan is being thrown out the window (more or less) anyway. So your ability to control it may be severely hampered.

I'll venture a guess and say that it seems like some sort of formation trigger in the game for a defense that is in "desperation" mode vs a "time killing" offense. Just that it's being employed by the wrong defense in late game situations.

At least your guys were in goal-line expecting the pass. Apparently Shaw's boys heard about my love for the toss sweep, and figured that I'd use it since the game was on the line. {shurg}

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

At least your guys were in goal-line expecting the pass. Apparently Shaw's boys heard about my love for the toss sweep, and figured that I'd use it since the game was on the line. {shurg}

Sort of...

Goal Line - Wrong defense.
Expecting the Pass - Good job coach!
2-deep BnR against deep passes - Wrong again...

[Antmeister]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Sort of...

Goal Line - Wrong defense.
Expecting the Pass - Good job coach!
2-deep BnR against deep passes - Wrong again...

Agreed on the goalline, but the 2-deep BnR isn't a bad defense if you are playing a Nickel or Dime against them and you have to cornerback/safties who are good at jamming receivers.

[yabanci]

Originally Posted by beargrowlz

...
That said, I don't know if this has been mentioned elsewhere, but from watching tons of games, I think I understand why it happens - and strangely as it sounds, it is working as intended!?! -- sort of.

I think what is happening is that when the defense goes into AI controlled/prevent mode, it changes the selection on the Basic defensive Selection Chart from what was called (in this case Agg Run) to Pass or Agg Pass. Ok, it makes sense for Jim to code it that way and that seems to work.

But I think Jim either a) forgot to have the code change the selection on the Defensive Personnel Chart when that occurs; b) put code in that is supposed to change the call on the Defensive Personnel chart but for some reason is not working properly; or c) decided not to have the AI change a call on the defensive Personnel chart.

I guess only Jim knows which. But I hope it was A or B, because C kind of stinks.

Anyway, I digress, but I did post my workaround.

I think you're basically right.

All defensive playcalling is based on the Basic Defensive Play Selection Chart. At the bottom of that screen it says:



I believe what's happening is when an offense goes into a hurry-up passing attack at the end of the half, the game abandons the playcalling chart as intended but is miscoded such that the goal-line defense is incorrectly included in the group of formations that might be called by the AI in these situations.

There might be other problems that account for the example SkyDog posted, but this goal-line, bump and run, pass aggressive is by far the most prevalent issue that is having the biggest impact on games.

I don't think there's any playcalling workaround since the problem itself stems from your playcalling being abandoned.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by yabanci

I believe what's happening is when an offense goes into a hurry-up passing attack at the end of the half, the game abandons the playcalling chart as intended but is miscoded such that the goal-line defense is incorrectly included in the group of formations that might be called by the AI in these situations.

I agree that this is likely the nature of the problem, and reach the same basic conclusion you do -- that there's rather little we can do about it other than hope that it might get addressed.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by Dutch

I'll venture a guess and say that it seems like some sort of formation trigger in the game for a defense that is in "desperation" mode vs a "time killing" offense. Just that it's being employed by the wrong defense in late game situations.

That sounds like a reasonable theory, especially as pre-6.0e the time-out decission making and knee-dropping appeared to be reversed as well when in hurry-up or clock-draining mode.

[bmerryman]

This issue does not only happen during hurry up/end of half/end of game. I've had it happen on 2nd and 10 with 10 minutes left in the first quarter. I haven't looked deeply but I also think the coverages may be a bit off as well.

Tulsa: Single-Back formation with four receivers, strength is right. The defense is in a 43 with nickel personnel and 2-deep man-to-man coverage, expecting the run. 1-10-TUL20 (1Q: 10:07) Reuben Spencer pass completed to WR Todd Swope for 26 yards. Tackled by ILB Marco Scifres.

Tulsa: Single-Back formation, strength is right. The defense is in a 43 with nickel personnel and 3-deep zone coverage, expecting the pass. 1-10-TUL46 (1Q: 09:38) Reuben Spencer pass was blocked at the line, intended for RB Ernie Sims. DE Joseph McWilliams blocked the pass.

Tulsa: I formation, strength is left. The defense is in a 43 with goal-line personnel and weak-side man, otherwise cover-7 zone coverage, expecting the run. 2-10-TUL46 (1Q: 09:33) Ernie Sims ran a trap outside the right tackle for 1 yard. Tackled by ILB Marco Scifres, assisted by OLB Ken Dock.

Tulsa: Pro formation, strength is left. The defense is in a 43 with nickel personnel and 4-deep zone coverage, keying aggressively on the pass. 3-9-TUL47 (1Q: 08:46) Reuben Spencer pass completed to TE Kim Elliott for 15 yards. Tackled by ILB Marco Scifres. The quarterback threw away from the double coverage. Tulsa's Jim Winger was hurt on the play.

Tulsa: Single-Back formation, strength is right. The defense is in a 43 with goal-line personnel and strong-side man, otherwise cover-7 zone coverage, expecting the run. 1-10-HON38 (1Q: 08:09) Ernie Sims ran inside the right tackle for -1 yards. Tackled by DT Butch Klech. ILB Marco Scifres knocked down Rico Guenther to break up the play.

Tulsa: Strong formation with three wideouts, strength is left. The defense is in a 43 with nickel personnel and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, expecting the pass. 2-11-HON39 (1Q: 07:32) Reuben Spencer pass completed to FB Oscar Strong for 8 yards. Tackled by CB Irving Occean. The receiver ran his route right over the middle of the field. PENALTY: Honolulu was called for Offsides.

Tulsa: Strong formation with three wideouts, strength is right. The defense is in a 43 and 3-deep zone coverage, expecting the pass. 2-6-HON34 (1Q: 07:24) Ernie Sims ran a counterplay inside the right tackle for 1 yard. Tackled by S Skip Buckner.

Tulsa: Single-Back formation with trips receivers, strength is right. The defense is in a 43 with dime personnel and 3-deep zone coverage, keying aggressively on the pass. 3-5-HON33 (1Q: 06:40) Reuben Spencer pass completed to WR Korey O'Donnell for 6 yards. Tackled by CB Les Brandon. The quarterback threw away from the double coverage.

Tulsa: I formation with two tight ends, strength is left. The defense is in a 43 with nickel personnel and 3-deep zone coverage, expecting the pass. 1-10-HON27 (1Q: 06:05) Reuben Spencer pass was thrown incomplete, intended for TE Kim Elliott. The quarterback threw away from the double coverage.

Tulsa: Single-Back formation, strength is right. The defense is in a 43 with nickel personnel and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, keying aggressively on the pass. 2-10-HON27 (1Q: 05:56) Reuben Spencer pass completed to TE Kim Elliott for 13 yards. Tackled by OLB Jamie Devine. The receiver ran his route right over the middle of the field. The quarterback threw away from the double coverage.

Tulsa: I formation, strength is right. The defense is in a 43 with goal-line personnel and 2-deep man-to-man coverage, expecting the run. 1-10-HON14 (1Q: 05:36) Reuben Spencer pass completed to TE Kim Elliott for 14 yards and a TOUCHDOWN! Tulsa 6, Honolulu 0

[MIJB#19]

Bmerryman, you're pointing out situations where your defense goes in a goalline formation as they are expecting the run on what isn't very unlikely to end up as a running play. Score tied 0-0 in the first quarter, 2nd and 10 and 1st and 10 in the red zone, if you actually use goalline formation, it's a little bit less shocking. The frequency is a probably bit high, but (at least to me) it's much less disturbing than in a clearcut last chance play to gain 30+ yards and the defense goes in goalline expecting the run.

Of course if your settings are to never used the goalline formation, you do have a strong case for things being wacky.

[bmerryman]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

Of course if your settings are to never used the goalline formation, you do have a strong case for things being wacky.

Indeed, my settings were that goalline personnel were to only be used on 3rd or 4th and 1. Therefore, it should've been impossible for the coach to have made these defensive calls. It's particularly disheartening it happened as frequently as it did.

[Sgran]

Here's a stab in the dark: If you're really desparate for a workaround you could try putting defensive backs at linebacker in the goalline formation. You wouldn't make many goalline stands, but maybe the nickel and dimes would drop into coverage.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by Sgran

Here's a stab in the dark: If you're really desparate for a workaround you could try putting defensive backs at linebacker in the goalline formation. You wouldn't make many goalline stands, but maybe the nickel and dimes would drop into coverage.

Something tells me the game wouldn't recognize it and regard the defensive backs as high school level linebackers.