Sources: Goodell determines Pats broke rules by taping Jets' signals

[Mantle2600]

NFL commissioner Roger Goodell has determined that the New England Patriots violated league rules Sunday when they videotaped defensive signals by the New York Jets' coaches, league sources have told ESPN's Chris Mortensen.

NFL security officials confiscated a camera and videotape from Patriots video assistant Matt Estrella on the New England sidelines when it was suspected he was recording the Jets' defensive signals. Sources say the visual evidence confirmed the suspicion.

Goodell is considering severe sanctions, including the possibility of docking the Patriots "multiple draft picks" because it is the competitive violation in the wake of a stern warning to all teams since he became commissioner, the sources said. The Patriots have been suspected in previous incidents.

The Patriots will be allowed an opportunity to present their case by Friday, sources said, most likely via the telephone.

The league also was reviewing a possible violation into the number of radio frequencies the Patriots were using during Sunday's game, sources said. The team did not have a satisfactory explanation when asked about possible irregularities in its communication setup during the game.

Goodell is expected to have a decision no later than Friday but that is not set in stone.

The league refused comment but did confirm Monday that they were reviewing a possible violation by the Patriots.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3014677

[Lathum]

I find it odd no one is bringing up the fact the Patriots should have to forfiet the game. IMO.

[Deattribution]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I find it odd no one is bringing up the fact the Patriots should have to forfiet the game. IMO.

I think that opens up a different can of worms if you do that - but it'll be interesting to see how they perform here on out. I wonder exactly how long they've been doing it, and how much of an advantage it's given them.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I find it odd no one is bringing up the fact the Patriots should have to forfiet the game. IMO.

If you're caught cheating, reprimanded, warned, and then you're caught doing the same exact thing the next year, I don't think that's unreasonable at all.

And I love the Pats. But tainted wins suck.

[Young Drachma]

Phew. Back to good ol' fashion cheating rather than performance enhancing.

[RendeR]

Its been a long standing rule, almost a commandment in the NFL that completed games are not changed. The game was played as it was played and that is the result.

I doubt they will overturn that game.

And besides, as others have said, the stealing the signals didn't keep the jets from tackling players or generally showing up for this game. They got beat, signals might have made it easier, but seeing how it was played they'd have gotten beat anyway.

[st.cronin]

Is it actually illegal to steal signals in the NFL, or is it just illegal to use technology to do so (which I think is the rule in MLB)?

[CraigSca]

Wow, and I thought the Patriots were just a good team. Their "honor" rating stinks.

[jeff061]

I'm surprised this has blown up as big as it has. I just don't care one way or the other. Everyone does it, Pats just pushed it to far to often and got busted. I find it very hard to believe it affects the outcome of games as much as some seem to think.

[jeff061]

Christ, the Packers said there's a "code of silence" on stuff like this, and that's why they didn't report it when they caught them last year.

[RendeR]

The thing I wonder about is this:

If the teams know this guy is doing this, and some have actively removed him from games before, why hasn't the league spoken to the Pats before this? lack of witnesses? Willing or otherwise?

And beyond that, if one team is being this blatant about it, you know that the other 31 are doing it too but being a lot more careful of where they put their guy.

[gstelmack]

Everyone is trying to take a piece out of them. I am disappointed in the Pats doing this, but I bet it opens up a can of worms. You've got this, you've got Childress talking about issues with cut-down day, I can't wait to see what Belichik does to get even. Remember his "all probable" injury report after a dispute with the NFL over an opponent's hemming and hawing?

Belichik will just teach the receiver on that side of the ball to watch for the signals...

[Atocep]

People actually think that this is simply because its the Pats?

They cheated, they got got caught. The NFL has said they've been reported it for it multiple times, this time they were stupid enough to do it against a team that is a rival and hates them.

So yes, its because its the Patriots, but more because of who caught them.

Remember his "all probable" injury report after a dispute with the NFL over an opponent's hemming and hawing?

You mean how he violates NFL rules on a near weekly basis with his injury reports?

Belichik will just teach the receiver on that side of the ball to watch for the signals...

You mean not actually break the rules?

[st.cronin]

See, that's the question. Everything I'm reading says that "stealing signals" is illegal, it doesn't say anything about the method. If that's the rule, that's an incredibly stupid rule.

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

People love to stick it to the Pats, that's the price of success. Don't get me wrong, if this is true as stated, then I'm disappointed, but if this is any other team getting caught this thread doesn't exist.

Well, for starters they did get a strongly worded letter from the NFL office last year warning them about such actions after complaints from the bears and packers about pats stealing signs...

[jeff061]

You mean how he violates NFL rules on a near weekly basis with his injury reports?

No he didn't. The injury rules were retarded and he made a mockery of them on purpose after the Vick debacle(listed as probable, when he was pretty much out), that's why they changed them.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

See, that's the question. Everything I'm reading says that "stealing signals" is illegal, it doesn't say anything about the method. If that's the rule, that's an incredibly stupid rule.

This is what the memo to teams last year covered;

Last year New England was reportedly the impetus of a sternly written memo from the league office to all teams, reminding them that it was illegal for any club official to bring a video recording device into the press box, video box or onto the field for the purposes of taping an opponent's signals or play-calling gestures from the sideline.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by jeff061

No he didn't. The injury rules were retarded and he made a mockery of them on purpose after the Vick debacle(listed as probable, when he was pretty much out), that's why they changed them.

http://www.startribune.com/510/story/769559.html

Other coaches had been complaining about him doing this for how long?

[Deattribution]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

I still stand by the fact that if this is the Ravens or Seahawks or Rams its barely a blip on the radar screen.

I have to call BS.

[jeff061]

Originally Posted by Atocep

http://www.startribune.com/510/story/769559.html

Other coaches had been complaining about him doing this for how long?

Like I just said, not even an hour ago, since the week after the Pats played Atlanta and Atlanta played down the injury to Vick SIGNIFICANTLY. This would have been October 05.

From the next week on the Pats did their little probable/questionable thing. They should have changed the rules that season. Seeing as how the Vick situation was ridiculous and Pats counter even moreso. Yet no rules were being broken.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by jeff061

Like I just said, not even an hour ago, since the week after the Pats played Atlanta and Atlanta played down the injury to Vick SIGNIFICANTLY. This would have been October 05.

From the next week on the Pats did their little probably thing. They should have changed the rules that season. Seeing as how the Vick situation was ridiculous and Pats counter even moreso. Yet no rules were being broken.

And he continually broke the rules nearly every week. Whether it was a stupid rule or not, he didn't follow it. He was breaking the rules himself.

[Easy Mac]

Originally Posted by Deattribution

I have to call BS.

Bill Simmons would just blame the Yankees.

I also enjoy that the only people defending the Pats are from MA

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

Bill Simmons would just blame the Yankees.

I also enjoy that the only people defending the Pats are from MA

Um.

[miked]

Yeah, I think the beef the Packers had was that it was somebody with Pats credentials videotaping signals from the Pack sidelines. Their "irregular" frequency stuff has to do allegedly with communicating these plays/signals without anyone knowing. It's pretty low and does put a black mark next to Billy B's "successes" and such.

[jeff061]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

Bill Simmons would just blame the Yankees.

I also enjoy that the only people defending the Pats are from MA

As far as coverage, I have no idea what would happen if this was another team, so I won't argue it.

However is it really shocking that someone would defend their own team, any team? In any case, I'm defending the injury report thing. I just don't care about this current "cheating" situation. Wouldn't even care if the Jets were busted after they beat the Pats. Really doesn't register with me at all, if it wasn't the Pats I probably wouldn't even open the topic.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I find it odd no one is bringing up the fact the Patriots should have to forfiet the game. IMO.

The purpose of observing the signs and recording them (the actual illegal act) is so they could be used for preparing for future games. Pop in tape, view signals, match up with on-field action, attempt to observe pattern at future games.

If they were doing this only to beat the Jets on Sunday, there would have been no need to tape it.

[hawk4669]

Sad thing is, and I know this has already been said, they didn't need any of this to beat the Jets this year.

And...keep in mind....I am a die-hard NY Jets fan and have been for a long time. Don't like the Pats much....but any of us Jets fans who think this made little if any impact on the game are fooling ourselves.

Not bashing my team, just being a realist.

Oh, and the Pats should be punished somehow for getting caught. As a side note, I'm sure if they get hit with a severe penalty it will curb ALL cheating that occurs in the NFL.

Just my two cents.

Cheers!

[jeff061]

I'm quite confident they are going to be losing more than a 7th .

[cthomer5000]

Bellicheck has been a piece of shit since the day he spat on Leon Hess' grave by quitting the Jets.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I find it odd no one is bringing up the fact the Patriots should have to forfiet the game. IMO.

Was my first thought as I opened the thread. As mentioned, the NFL will not go back and reverse a completed game.
But if Goodell really wanted to get the attention of 32 teams, that would be a great way to do so. Would never be tried again.

[Daimyo]

Wow. Any other team did this and I'd be surprised. For the Pats I'm just surprised they got caught.

[BishopMVP]

Disclaimer: I'm a Patriots fan, so clearly anything I say is the delusions of a homer.

I really don't see the big deal. Fines, maybe a 4th round pick, ok. But even with Goodell ramping up suspensions, anyone talking about $10 million fines, forfeiting the game or losing a 1st round pick is crazy.

It's clearly cheating (and based off Weis' reaction has been going on awhile by both coaches), but no matter how blatantly they were stealing signals that's not a huge competitive advantage on par with the 49ers manipulating the salary cap. And I'm sure almost every other team in the league is trying to do these things. If they aren't, they're not giving their players the best chance to win games.

[Butter]

Love the Pats fans continuing "everyone's just jealous of us" schtick.

Agree that a forfeiture would be awesome, but the realistic hope is for some kind of other severe punishment.

Also agree that Belichick is a piece of shit. Can't think of a less deserving guy in the NFL to take all the credit for this team.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

Can't think of a less deserving guy in the NFL to take all the credit for this team.

I give all the credit to Tom Brady.

[Maple Leafs]

Clearly, the only fair punishment is to force the team to return any and all draft picks that they own from other teams.

Signed,
49er fans

[MizzouRah]

Sports are REALLY becoming a joke. Why in the F would they have to do something like this?

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

Sports are REALLY becoming a joke. Why in the F would they have to do something like this?

Becoming? This shit's been going on in every sport since they've been invented. I don't want to sound like a Pats fan playing the "everyone's jealous of us" or "any other team it wouldn't be a big deal" - we did it, we got caught (I'm sure Mangini was looking for it) we should be punished, and it would be a story with any other team, but I can't stand the holier-than-thou "my team has and would never stoop that low!" attitude some people are expressing.

[Deattribution]

If it didn't give any advantage they wouldn't of bothered doing it for *atleast* the last two years.

[thesloppy]

And now, from PFT (so take it with a handful of salt):

WERE PATS WIRING DEFENSIVE PLAYERS, TOO?

The situation regarding the New England Patriots and the allegations/proof that they have stolen defensive signals is unofficially getting weirder.

The signal stealing flap is relevant only to defensive signals, since all offensive calls are made by radio.

But we're now aware of suspicions/rumors regarding efforts by the Pats to get a leg up as to opposing offenses. Specifically, we're told that it's believed that, during the 2006 season, the Patriots were putting microphones on defensive linemen in order to capture the offensive line calls and the quarterback audibles.

Then, the audio and the video of the game would be matched up, and the defensive players would be given the code at halftime.

[Surtt]

This wasn't a big deal when they were told to stop it.
When they thumbed their noses at the commissioner and kept doing it, I think it became a big thing to him.

BTW
I am more concerned about them having their defense wired?
That would be a huge advantage.

[jeff061]

Originally Posted by Surtt

BTW
I am more concerned about them having their defense wired?
That would be a huge advantage.

Yeah, I'm not believing that one. That would be a bit much.

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Becoming? This shit's been going on in every sport since they've been invented. I don't want to sound like a Pats fan playing the "everyone's jealous of us" or "any other team it wouldn't be a big deal" - we did it, we got caught (I'm sure Mangini was looking for it) we should be punished, and it would be a story with any other team, but I can't stand the holier-than-thou "my team has and would never stoop that low!" attitude some people are expressing.

I'm sure it has, but what I didn't know, didn't hurt me. I'm just freaking sick and tired of turning on ESPN and listening to the first half hour of the show talk about all this F'N cheating going on. Damn... the Patriots have really been one of those teams you just love to watch, then you have to hear about shit like this. The same of Ankiel, Bonds, etc... it just gets old.

[Surtt]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

Don't want to belabor this at all, but I'm not defending the Pats. It was wrong, it was stupid, and I'm a bit confused by the whole thing. There's truly no excuse for it.

What I'm trying to get at is, as a Pats fan, the part that pisses me off the most if the ammunition it gives to the haters. Similar to how a sign stealing controversy would be a bigger deal if it was the Yanks instead of the Phillies. When everyone wants to take a piece out of you, why give them ammunition. I have serious doubts that this sort of cheating would even translate to much of any advantage, which confuses me even more.

I can empathize with your position. perception becomes reality.
But any team getting caught cheating red handed would be a big story.

[larrymcg421]

I mostly can't wait to see how Flere covers this.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

I'm sure it has, but what I didn't know, didn't hurt me. I'm just freaking sick and tired of turning on ESPN and listening to the first half hour of the show talk about all this F'N cheating going on. Damn... the Patriots have really been one of those teams you just love to watch, then you have to hear about shit like this. The same of Ankiel, Bonds, etc... it just gets old.

I don't mean to be rude, but isn't this more a product of ESPN and our saturated, media coverage environment? I hate to sound like Bucc, but "cheating" in sports has been going forever - assholes have existed in sports forever - its only today we cover each and every activity in such hyper-active detail.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by Logan

The purpose of observing the signs and recording them (the actual illegal act) is so they could be used for preparing for future games. Pop in tape, view signals, match up with on-field action, attempt to observe pattern at future games.

If they were doing this only to beat the Jets on Sunday, there would have been no need to tape it.

Really? Then why were they taping the Packers in mid-November? Worried about a possible Super Bowl matchup, or just preparing for their next game in four years?

[Maple Leafs]

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/f...icleid=1030707

For a window into the Patriots’ tactics, multiple Packers sources provided a fascinating account of what happened in the 35-0 victory last Nov. 19.

A man identifying himself as a Patriots employee asked a security guard if he could shoot footage of Lambeau Field before the game, and permission was granted.

Just before the game, he requested to stay on the sidelines to record quarterback Tom Brady [stats] for the coaching staff. However, he was soon spotted filming the Packers defense and signaling Patriots coaches.

A member of the Packers security staff witnessed the exchange and asked him to leave. He retreated to the tunnel, continued filming, and appeared to be communicating with the coaches via hand signals before being escorted off the field.

...

It’s interesting to note a pair of comments after that game. The first came from Packers corner Al Harris, who praised the Patriots coaching staff.

“It’s almost like they knew what we were doing, you know?” he said. “You have to tip your hat to them. They ran plays designed for us. They ran plays that made us check out of some things. I don’t know who calls their plays, but Belichick is pretty good. Honestly, he’s pretty good.”

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

I don't mean to be rude, but isn't this more a product of ESPN and our saturated, media coverage environment? I hate to sound like Bucc, but "cheating" in sports has been going forever - assholes have existed in sports forever - its only today we cover each and every activity in such hyper-active detail.

Rude? lol.. no way.. I understand it's been going on for years, I just haven't been privy to the information, so therefore I don't really give it much thought (it doesn't ruin my enjoyment of the game) - but knowing it really pisses me off about the Pats and I wonder just how much of an advantage they have had over the years?

[miami_fan]

This thread reminds me another thread (or two) that have involved some sort of cheating. The names may be different but the arguements remain the same.

[DaddyTorgo]

read an article earlier citing "multiple league sources" that basically said "everyone's doing it."