Short Pass and 3 and 4 deep zone

claretonmyshirt · 11-07-2007, 05:54 AM

Does anyone know how to stop the short pass, I play in 3 multi player leagues and can stop the medium and long but not the short, tried blitzing, tried various typers of coverage and various types of skill sets for Linebackers and Cornerbacks but nothing works.

3 Deep Zone seems to be very good at stopping the run at times which kind of baffles me, but terrible at stopping the pass, any one have ideas on this or seen the same thing?

Ben E Lou · 11-07-2007, 07:47 AM

According to the help file, 2-deep bump and run might be what you're looking for.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Help File

2-Deep, Bump and Run - This is the "Cover-2" defense that so many teams use today. Both safeties drop into deep zones, and the other pass defenders play much closer to the receivers, often bumping them within the legal five-yard limit. This defense has no major weaknesses, and is a little stronger against a short passing attack.

claretonmyshirt · 11-07-2007, 08:05 AM

Sorry i did not make myself clear, if you play bump and run you need players that play it well, so bump and run is obviously needed, but what else because i have LB's and WR's that have skills well in excess of 60 for B&R and it does not stop the short pass.

So do i need CB's and LB's that hit hard for the contact within the first 5 yards

Is it Diag and B&R,

Is it B&R with a bit of Zone or Man

If i play 9 in the box B&R there for making the SS go into closing coverage that does not work.

Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeelllllllllllllllllllppppppppppppppppppp

Ben E Lou · 11-07-2007, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by claretonmyshirt

Sorry i did not make myself clear, if you play bump and run you need players that play it well, so bump and run is obviously needed, but what else because i have LB's and WR's that have skills well in excess of 60 for B&R and it does not stop the short pass.

So do i need CB's and LB's that hit hard for the contact within the first 5 yards

Is it Diag and B&R,

Is it B&R with a bit of Zone or Man

If i play 9 in the box B&R there for making the SS go into closing coverage that does not work.

Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeelllllllllllllllllllppppppppppppppppppp

I'm also curious about your definition of "does not work." I just looked through 15 seasons in SP with 6.1, and my three MP leagues that are using 6.1 for the first season. Overall completion percentage on short passes is consistently in the 79-82% range every season, and even the very best defenses at stopping it give up 70% completions.

claretonmyshirt · 11-07-2007, 08:25 AM

The same here my leagues show 80% completion with a 5.2 average, so then all you have to do is throw short passes to constantly move the chains, there has to be a way of stopping it. In the NFL this does not happen.

Double coverage does not work, blitzing does not work something has to work.

There has to be a type of CB or LB that stops it, a player with like i say Good diag and B&R or some other combination.

Ben E Lou · 11-07-2007, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by claretonmyshirt

so then all you have to do is throw short passes to constantly move the chains

Do it too much, and the defense will become extremely familiar with that play, I suppose. *shurg*

claretonmyshirt · 11-07-2007, 09:06 AM

But if you have a QB who knows 17 formations and thuses most of them then this would nulify the "extremely familiar" wouln't it.

On Pass defence if your using a double team and playing B&R does your safety double team using his B&R skill or zone or a mix and match of the two, FOF should tell people this as its a basic thing.

Also how many times does a LB make the tackle on a completed long pass, I appreciate if for insantce if there's a mix match this could happen but not when i am playing nickel or dime and he is play a 2 WR set

Thre are just to many unknowns in this game that you should be told as basics, i appreciate half the fun is working it out for your self but come on FOF give us a clue because lots of people are getting so pissed off with the game that they are binning it and that can not be good for FOF

marcmoustache · 11-07-2007, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by claretonmyshirt

so then all you have to do is throw short passes to constantly move the chains, there has to be a way of stopping it. In the NFL this does not happen.

I'm not sure that this is true, as you've just defined the west coast offence haven't you?

claretonmyshirt · 11-07-2007, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marcmoustache

I'm not sure that this is true, as you've just defined the west coast offence haven't you?

But from the 6 leagues me and Skydog are in 2 out of three short passes get completed at an average of 5+ yards across all 32 teams so does that mean the Westcoast offence works for everyone ?

I just feel FOF need to explain the basics a lot better, like i say what does a Safety use when in double coverage Man or Zone or what.

Why does a LB make a tackle after a 25 yard gain to a WR, the WR would leave him for dead,

gstelmack · 11-07-2007, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by claretonmyshirt

Why does a LB make a tackle after a 25 yard gain to a WR, the WR would leave him for dead,

Why? This is precisely what makes the "Tampa-2" a "Tampa-2" and not a "Cover-2": speedy MLB handling the deep middle against the slot receiver or TE.

Surtt · 11-07-2007, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by claretonmyshirt

I just feel FOF need to explain the basics a lot better, like i say what does a Safety use when in double coverage Man or Zone or what.

You are not alone.

If you check out some of the other posts on coverage, that is a hot topic.
It seems like no one really knows the answer to that question.

OldSchool · 11-07-2007, 12:19 PM

All I need to see is "4-3 formation with dime personnel aggressively expecting the run" and look at the game-planning screens for defense and I know that the way Jim has modeled defenses does not translate well to my view of the real game. I've got a feeling its the kind of thing that's going to need a new version and probably be a part of a major rewrite so maybe it'll improve in future versions. For now, I just accept that I'm not going to be able to gameplan my defense quite the way I like it, and concentrate on offensive gameplanning.

gstelmack · 11-07-2007, 12:31 PM

You are missing the 4-deep zone part of your example...

claretonmyshirt · 11-07-2007, 12:41 PM

well i think is bloody stupid that we are not told, i knows its a game but we are supposed to run a Football team and we don't know how to stop a short pass.

I am close to binning FOF and going back to Madden because its impossible to work things out and I don't feel that's there much fun when alot of the results to me seem to be random

Dave Hansen · 11-07-2007, 01:26 PM

I'm in the middle of my third season...so not a lot of experience.

Last training camp I put 4 hours/day into defense. What I "seem" to be seeing thru 15 games this season is not so much the comp% going down, but the Y/C and Y/A down about one full yard.

I call all my plays, and in watching the PBP it looks like 7 yard routes connect for 5/6 yards...11 yard routes for 9/10...15 for 12/14 on more occassions than in past seasons.

This seems espicially true on 3rd down plays. "More" third down completions seem to come up a yard short on more occassions than last year. My opponent's 3rd% has dropped from 35.3% to 30.3% this year.

My $.02. And I know that there are a lot of other factors to consider, but all LB/CB/S are back from the previous year and their ratings are the same.

Teams that utilize their TE along with RB/FB a lot I tend to play MTM with one deep zone from a nickle set. Vulnerable to deep throws to WR's, but a gamble to stop the short passes completions a yard or two short of distance required. Blitz about 35% of the time.

claretonmyshirt · 11-07-2007, 01:34 PM

I would suggest that the reason the stats have changed is the expereince of your players has gone up and maybe the cohesion of the units has gone up also if you have the same players coming back from last year.

I appreciate the help put i want to know how to get my DB or LB there before his WR or at least so he can stop the receiver catching the ball.

In every sports im there is a combination of weighted skills plus a random die that makes something work or stops it from working and i feel FOF need to tell us roughly what they are without giving the game away.

Subby · 11-07-2007, 02:02 PM

email support AT solecismic dot com and you'll get your answers

claretonmyshirt · 11-07-2007, 02:19 PM

I have emailed them, if i get the answers or any answers i will post them so all people can have there answers,

hopefully we may get some answers

IMetTrentGreen · 11-07-2007, 02:43 PM

Think about it in real life terms. The short passing game is really hard to stop in the NFL, too. The trade off is that eventually the QB will miss a throw, or a WR will drop a pass, put them in 3rd and long, and the drive will stall. So if you are that concerned about it, play conservative and let the offense fizzle out on it's own.

That's why Texas Tech will always put up dazzling numbers but never actually win anything.

claretonmyshirt · 11-07-2007, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMetTrentGreen

Think about it in real life terms. The short passing game is really hard to stop in the NFL, too. The trade off is that eventually the QB will miss a throw, or a WR will drop a pass, put them in 3rd and long, and the drive will stall. So if you are that concerned about it, play conservative and let the offense fizzle out on it's own.

That's why Texas Tech will always put up dazzling numbers but never actually win anything.

The above is from FOF direct, amke of it as you will !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't mean to be rude but what kind of answer is that, so what your saying is i just have to wait for him to miss, so what is the point of havng a defensive game plan, i might as well stick any old combination of defence in just basically the ones with the highest overall skill set, what is the point of having skills if you can't match them to performance, like i say i am three multi player leagues and lots are people are scratching there heads getting more and more frustrated and are slowly dropping out, which eventually means less sales and less people playing the game, we are not asking for all the answers, the guts of the game just some help, we are asking for proper answers not cryptic one's so please can we have some kind of answers.

What about the other questions, i.e what does the Safety use when he doubles up Zone or the coverage you are in, i.e bump and run

claretonmyshirt · 11-07-2007, 04:03 PM

The more i think about FOF's answer the more it makes me think that the skills within the game with reference to defence are pointless apart from the overall score and i think you are proving this.

So what you are stating here is that there is not much i can do about short passing apart for wait for the offence to mess up.

So the inspirational NFL Coach says to his defence before going on to the field "hey we can not do anything about short passes just wait for the offence to mess up and hopefully it a be before they get to the endzone or in FG range".

come on please tell me there is more to it that this

Ben E Lou · 11-07-2007, 04:59 PM

While I'm very much of the opinion that the community needs more information about how to game plan defensively, I don't get your beef about short passing. The documentation seems to make it crystal clear that Bump and Run is better. And as to your realism argument, it seems like that's precisely what a coach would tell his players: play up close to the line, and tackle well.

I'm not following you on what you mean by "FOF's answer," either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by claretonmyshirt

But if you have a QB who knows 17 formations and thuses most of them then this would nulify the "extremely familiar" wouln't it.

No. It doesn't at all. I tried all short passing with an 18-formation QB, and it failed miserably. You'd have to mix in some running and medium/long passing.

claretonmyshirt · 11-07-2007, 05:13 PM

I emailed FOF and that was reply i got via email so as i said it's "FOF or Solecismics answer",

I am not asking for a scheme that takes SP below 50% what I am asking for is someone namely Solecismic to explain defence and give us the users some fair insight, is it not a reasonable question to ask some one to explain defence.

Once again i will ask Solecismic the same questions is there a combination of skills required for each type of cover, so for b&R cover does man and Diag have any part in the total score for instance, what does Diag actually do, does a safety in double coverage use his zone or B&R skill or a combination of both, why do offsides occur, is it due to inexperience, intelligence or what, why does the 2nd HB run more than the 1st HBat times even when the 1st HB is supposed to play more and the has higher endurance

I THINK THESE ARE VERY FAIR QUESTIONS TO ASK and people should be given the answers so that they do not get disillusioned with the game as so many are, you only have to look at these boards to see that.

Ben E Lou · 11-07-2007, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by claretonmyshirt

I emailed FOF and that was reply i got via email so as i said it's "FOF or Solecismics answer",

Umm...what answer. You didn't post an answer unless I missed something.

Quote:

Once again i will ask Solecismic the same questions is there a combination of skills required for each type of cover, so for b&R cover does man and Diag have any part in the total score for instance, what does Diag actually do, does a safety in double coverage use his zone or B&R skill or a combination of both, why do offsides occur, is it due to inexperience, intelligence or what, why does the 2nd HB run more than the 1st HBat times even when the 1st HB is supposed to play more and the has higher endurance

I THINK THESE ARE VERY FAIR QUESTIONS TO ASK and people should be given the answers so that they do not get disillusioned with the game as so many are, you only have to look at these boards to see that.

Some of those are legitimate questions. We already got an answer on RB endurance, though, in the Q&A done recently.

claretonmyshirt · 11-07-2007, 05:36 PM

Yeah i think you missed a big point and thats why will FOF not answer the questions directly instead of playing one forum user off against another.

I appreciate your help Skydog but at the end of the day unless they start answering questions its there customers they are going to lose.

SO FOF PLEASE ANSWER THE QUESTIONS

Ben E Lou · 11-07-2007, 05:40 PM

You still haven't said what the reply you got was...

claretonmyshirt · 11-07-2007, 05:51 PM

The reply was the one from Imettrentgreen which i thought was direct from them as i had not posted on here before, thought imettrendgrren was a FOF employee, my mistake sorry

When i email them all they do is send back who ever answers the thread's comments, load of bollox as far as i am concerned.

I think the basic answer is the game is nowhere near as indepth as they'd like to make out, i've played 20 years worth of sports sims mainly soccer and English like sports and they always explain to a certain degree not leave it up to the user to guess and have no real way of working things out.

Like i say loads of people are pissed of with this and FOF could make it so much better for everyone if they answered some basic questions, instead it seems to me we have to beg like dogs to get answers to simple questions that should be covered, and this man don't beg. I am going to give it a week to see if they answer my questions and if not its back to madden and the likes for me and i think lots more are thinking this way, well they are in my leagues when the weekly discussion htread come up and they can't work out for the life of them why certain things are happening.

the game is either bug ridden or not as indepth as they like to make out if not they'd answer the questions.

Ramzavail · 11-07-2007, 06:07 PM

Sorry to interject here on your very important Q&A - but who are the "loads of people " that are pissed off and what leagues are these people "scratching their heads and dropping out of"?

I didn't know we had such a large UK fanbase.

claretonmyshirt · 11-07-2007, 06:12 PM

you don't but it could have a big UK fan base.

Ramzavail · 11-07-2007, 06:14 PM

ladies and gentlemen - its Roger Goodell!

claretonmyshirt · 11-07-2007, 06:19 PM

what do they call you then Mr Sarky Bastard

Ben E Lou · 11-07-2007, 06:20 PM

OK then...back to the issues at hand. Ramz did ask a good one: what leagues are people dropping out of or about to drop out of?

claretonmyshirt · 11-07-2007, 06:27 PM

Sod what Mr sarky B@stard asked i'm still waiting for my answers, i'm not going to name names but if you where in one of my leagues may be two you'd know

Ben E Lou · 11-07-2007, 06:28 PM

I don't mean people...just leagues.

claretonmyshirt · 11-07-2007, 06:32 PM

what do you want a know for ?

Ramzavail · 11-07-2007, 06:39 PM

(shhh...its the password for all your answers) just tell him...then FOF will speak.

claretonmyshirt · 11-07-2007, 06:55 PM

ramslittleboys or what ever your name is you got anything interesting to say if not fuck off

Ben E Lou · 11-07-2007, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by claretonmyshirt

what do you want a know for ?

To see what leagues might have openings soon.

claretonmyshirt · 11-07-2007, 07:06 PM

Most of them have openings normally don't they, the ENFL does i think if your looking for a team but i'm not in that league, i 'm sure you know a lt of leagues as you seem to post a hell of a lot on here

claretonmyshirt · 11-07-2007, 07:13 PM

I play a single game as well as the Raiders and Russell's read is about 40 yet he throws in to double coverage less than other QB's who have much higher Read rating, yet the help manual says that the higher the read the less chance he will throw to the double coverage the only thing i can think of here is that the receiver in double coverage is more open than the guy in single coverage so he throws it to him.

Thoughts?

Ben E Lou · 11-07-2007, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by claretonmyshirt

I play a single game as well as the Raiders and Russell's read is about 40 yet he throws in to double coverage less than other QB's who have much higher Read rating, yet the help manual says that the higher the read the less chance he will throw to the double coverage the only thing i can think of here is that the receiver in double coverage is more open than the guy in single coverage so he throws it to him.

Thoughts?

Only one game? Sample size.

claretonmyshirt · 11-07-2007, 07:28 PM

I've played about 30 games with them using solvision so i can basically write down the times each QB throws to or away from double coverage, from about 250 attempts where Russell could of thrown into double coverage he has done so about 20% of the time. His Read Rating has gone from 30 initially to about 46 now.

16 of the oppositions QB's had rating of above 50 rating upto 91 and they threw about 25% into double coverage, small sample but the only way really to do it is by watching game to game, but it stills seems to show something different to what the help files suggest.

Ben E Lou · 11-07-2007, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by claretonmyshirt

His Read Rating has gone from 30 initially to about 46 now.

Ah. That's what's happening here. If you're only two seasons in (30 games), his ratings are probably still masked quite a bit.

claretonmyshirt · 11-07-2007, 07:42 PM

but i would of thought that the scout would know how good he is now and that is what you should go on, so what your saying is that the sliders are not to be trusted in any shape or form and a player who rates as say 40 now with a future of 80 is better at this moment than a player who is at 60 and maxed out. If thats what your saying how can that make sense, i'm not saying your wrong as you seem to have run many tests etc just seems very strange to me.

The same applies to HB's Jordan and Rhodes, both are maxed out Jordan is the better runner easily by the sliders yet Rhodes always has a higher YPC

Ben E Lou · 11-07-2007, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by claretonmyshirt

so what your saying is that the sliders are not to be trusted in any shape or form and a player who rates as say 40 now with a future of 80 is better at this moment than a player who is at 60 and maxed out.

No. That's not what I'm saying in all cases.

claretonmyshirt · 11-07-2007, 08:07 PM

sorry if i'm being thick here but what are you saying then ?

If his Read Rating is 46 then allowing for a few points either way dependant on my scout surely his rating is below the other QB's and therefore his read is worse making him throw in to double coverage more than the other QB's who have a far higher rating.

I have played Football Manager 1m copies sold for 10 years plus many other sports sims and FOF at times just does not make sense.

primelord · 11-07-2007, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by claretonmyshirt

sorry if i'm being thick here but what are you saying then ?

If his Read Rating is 46 then allowing for a few points either way dependant on my scout surely his rating is below the other QB's and therefore his read is worse making him throw in to double coverage more than the other QB's who have a far higher rating.

I have played Football Manager 1m copies sold for 10 years plus many other sports sims and FOF at times just does not make sense.

Thank goodness you added that FM has sold 1 million copies. Your point would have made no sense without that in there.

claretonmyshirt · 11-07-2007, 08:43 PM

made sense to me

Rizon · 11-07-2007, 09:01 PM

I use to get eaten up by short passing, mainly by screen passes to RBs. I started to call my own plays, and when I suspected a screen pass, I'd go to B&R with no blitzes. The computer would usually make the completion, but for about 1 or 2 yards. I basically shut them down.

Julio Riddols · 11-07-2007, 09:26 PM

Dude.. Theres being rational, then theres this.. It doesn't seem to me you know a great deal about American Football, and I don't even mean that to be a negative comment. The problem is, instead of trying to be understanding about what you are being told, you are dismissing everyones answers because you think you are right no matter what.

The game has some issues, but they are nowhere near the big deal you are making them out to be- If you expect the scout on your team to be right about everything, then youre overlooking the fact that scouts are human and humans make errors in judgement. The ratings you're talking about are being given to you by a scout who can be wrong. Theres a reason a guy like Rich Gannon or Jeff Hostetler didn't start for a majority of their career, thats because no one saw their talent.

As far as stopping the short pass, its pretty simple, you can't really "stop" the short pass. Its a very high percentage play, but just like a run it can be stopped by playing sound defense and making tackles. If one team threw only short passes, not only would they increase the risk of a turnover on the long drives they have to go on (due to a missed blocking assignment or a bad throw into coverage, etc.) but they would also have a hard time being consistently successful. This is why long and intermediate passes and runs are essential to any offense. Therefore, to stop teams, maybe your focus should be on your overall defense, not so much stopping the short pass. Really, the short pass should be the least of your worries.

For instance, look at the Colts this season, their pass defense is among the best in the league,allowing a QB rating of 72.9.. They are giving opponents 65.6% completion rates, but only allowing 5.6 yards per attempt, because they stop the deep pass. (only 12 passes over 20 yards, only 3 of those for more than 40) They simply tackle the short pass. There really is no stopping the short pass. Not even in the real NFL.

11-07-2007, 09:06 AM	#7
claretonmyshirt n00b Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: England	But if you have a QB who knows 17 formations and thuses most of them then this would nulify the "extremely familiar" wouln't it. On Pass defence if your using a double team and playing B&R does your safety double team using his B&R skill or zone or a mix and match of the two, FOF should tell people this as its a basic thing. Also how many times does a LB make the tackle on a completed long pass, I appreciate if for insantce if there's a mix match this could happen but not when i am playing nickel or dime and he is play a 2 WR set Thre are just to many unknowns in this game that you should be told as basics, i appreciate half the fun is working it out for your self but come on FOF give us a clue because lots of people are getting so pissed off with the game that they are binning it and that can not be good for FOF Last edited by claretonmyshirt : 11-07-2007 at 09:07 AM.

11-07-2007, 12:31 PM	#13
gstelmack Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Cary, NC	You are missing the 4-deep zone part of your example... __________________ -- Greg -- Author of various FOF utilities

11-07-2007, 02:02 PM	#17
Subby lolzcat Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: sans pants	email support AT solecismic dot com and you'll get your answers __________________ Superman was flying around and saw Wonder Woman getting a tan in the nude on her balcony. Superman said I going to hit that real fast. So he flys down toward Wonder Woman to hit it and their is a loud scream. The Invincible Man scream what just hit me in the ass!!!!! I do shit, I take pictures, I write about it: chrisshue.com

11-07-2007, 04:03 PM	#21
claretonmyshirt n00b Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: England	The more i think about FOF's answer the more it makes me think that the skills within the game with reference to defence are pointless apart from the overall score and i think you are proving this. So what you are stating here is that there is not much i can do about short passing apart for wait for the offence to mess up. So the inspirational NFL Coach says to his defence before going on to the field "hey we can not do anything about short passes just wait for the offence to mess up and hopefully it a be before they get to the endzone or in FG range". come on please tell me there is more to it that this Last edited by claretonmyshirt : 11-07-2007 at 04:04 PM.

11-07-2007, 05:40 PM	#26
Ben E Lou Morgado's Favorite Forum Fascist Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Greensboro, NC	You still haven't said what the reply you got was... __________________ The media don't understand the kinds of problems and pressures 54 million come wit'!

11-07-2007, 08:05 AM	#3
claretonmyshirt n00b Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: England	Sorry i did not make myself clear, if you play bump and run you need players that play it well, so bump and run is obviously needed, but what else because i have LB's and WR's that have skills well in excess of 60 for B&R and it does not stop the short pass. So do i need CB's and LB's that hit hard for the contact within the first 5 yards Is it Diag and B&R, Is it B&R with a bit of Zone or Man If i play 9 in the box B&R there for making the SS go into closing coverage that does not work. Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeelllllllllllllllllllppppppppppppppppppp

11-07-2007, 08:25 AM	#5
claretonmyshirt n00b Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: England	The same here my leagues show 80% completion with a 5.2 average, so then all you have to do is throw short passes to constantly move the chains, there has to be a way of stopping it. In the NFL this does not happen. Double coverage does not work, blitzing does not work something has to work. There has to be a type of CB or LB that stops it, a player with like i say Good diag and B&R or some other combination.

11-07-2007, 12:19 PM	#12
OldSchool High School Varsity Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Florida	All I need to see is "4-3 formation with dime personnel aggressively expecting the run" and look at the game-planning screens for defense and I know that the way Jim has modeled defenses does not translate well to my view of the real game. I've got a feeling its the kind of thing that's going to need a new version and probably be a part of a major rewrite so maybe it'll improve in future versions. For now, I just accept that I'm not going to be able to gameplan my defense quite the way I like it, and concentrate on offensive gameplanning.

11-07-2007, 12:41 PM	#14
claretonmyshirt n00b Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: England	well i think is bloody stupid that we are not told, i knows its a game but we are supposed to run a Football team and we don't know how to stop a short pass. I am close to binning FOF and going back to Madden because its impossible to work things out and I don't feel that's there much fun when alot of the results to me seem to be random

11-07-2007, 01:26 PM	#15
Dave Hansen n00b Join Date: Dec 2006	I'm in the middle of my third season...so not a lot of experience. Last training camp I put 4 hours/day into defense. What I "seem" to be seeing thru 15 games this season is not so much the comp% going down, but the Y/C and Y/A down about one full yard. I call all my plays, and in watching the PBP it looks like 7 yard routes connect for 5/6 yards...11 yard routes for 9/10...15 for 12/14 on more occassions than in past seasons. This seems espicially true on 3rd down plays. "More" third down completions seem to come up a yard short on more occassions than last year. My opponent's 3rd% has dropped from 35.3% to 30.3% this year. My $.02. And I know that there are a lot of other factors to consider, but all LB/CB/S are back from the previous year and their ratings are the same. Teams that utilize their TE along with RB/FB a lot I tend to play MTM with one deep zone from a nickle set. Vulnerable to deep throws to WR's, but a gamble to stop the short passes completions a yard or two short of distance required. Blitz about 35% of the time.

11-07-2007, 01:34 PM	#16
claretonmyshirt n00b Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: England	I would suggest that the reason the stats have changed is the expereince of your players has gone up and maybe the cohesion of the units has gone up also if you have the same players coming back from last year. I appreciate the help put i want to know how to get my DB or LB there before his WR or at least so he can stop the receiver catching the ball. In every sports im there is a combination of weighted skills plus a random die that makes something work or stops it from working and i feel FOF need to tell us roughly what they are without giving the game away.

11-07-2007, 02:19 PM	#18
claretonmyshirt n00b Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: England	I have emailed them, if i get the answers or any answers i will post them so all people can have there answers, hopefully we may get some answers

11-07-2007, 02:43 PM	#19
IMetTrentGreen College Prospect Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Austin, Texas	Think about it in real life terms. The short passing game is really hard to stop in the NFL, too. The trade off is that eventually the QB will miss a throw, or a WR will drop a pass, put them in 3rd and long, and the drive will stall. So if you are that concerned about it, play conservative and let the offense fizzle out on it's own. That's why Texas Tech will always put up dazzling numbers but never actually win anything.

11-07-2007, 05:13 PM	#23
claretonmyshirt n00b Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: England	I emailed FOF and that was reply i got via email so as i said it's "FOF or Solecismics answer", I am not asking for a scheme that takes SP below 50% what I am asking for is someone namely Solecismic to explain defence and give us the users some fair insight, is it not a reasonable question to ask some one to explain defence. Once again i will ask Solecismic the same questions is there a combination of skills required for each type of cover, so for b&R cover does man and Diag have any part in the total score for instance, what does Diag actually do, does a safety in double coverage use his zone or B&R skill or a combination of both, why do offsides occur, is it due to inexperience, intelligence or what, why does the 2nd HB run more than the 1st HBat times even when the 1st HB is supposed to play more and the has higher endurance I THINK THESE ARE VERY FAIR QUESTIONS TO ASK and people should be given the answers so that they do not get disillusioned with the game as so many are, you only have to look at these boards to see that.

11-07-2007, 05:36 PM	#25
claretonmyshirt n00b Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: England	Yeah i think you missed a big point and thats why will FOF not answer the questions directly instead of playing one forum user off against another. I appreciate your help Skydog but at the end of the day unless they start answering questions its there customers they are going to lose. SO FOF PLEASE ANSWER THE QUESTIONS

11-07-2007, 05:51 PM	#27
claretonmyshirt n00b Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: England	The reply was the one from Imettrentgreen which i thought was direct from them as i had not posted on here before, thought imettrendgrren was a FOF employee, my mistake sorry When i email them all they do is send back who ever answers the thread's comments, load of bollox as far as i am concerned. I think the basic answer is the game is nowhere near as indepth as they'd like to make out, i've played 20 years worth of sports sims mainly soccer and English like sports and they always explain to a certain degree not leave it up to the user to guess and have no real way of working things out. Like i say loads of people are pissed of with this and FOF could make it so much better for everyone if they answered some basic questions, instead it seems to me we have to beg like dogs to get answers to simple questions that should be covered, and this man don't beg. I am going to give it a week to see if they answer my questions and if not its back to madden and the likes for me and i think lots more are thinking this way, well they are in my leagues when the weekly discussion htread come up and they can't work out for the life of them why certain things are happening. the game is either bug ridden or not as indepth as they like to make out if not they'd answer the questions.

11-07-2007, 06:07 PM	#28
Ramzavail College Starter Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Strong Island, NY	Sorry to interject here on your very important Q&A - but who are the "loads of people " that are pissed off and what leagues are these people "scratching their heads and dropping out of"? I didn't know we had such a large UK fanbase. Last edited by Ramzavail : 11-07-2007 at 06:08 PM.

11-07-2007, 06:12 PM	#29
claretonmyshirt n00b Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: England	you don't but it could have a big UK fan base.

11-07-2007, 06:14 PM	#30
Ramzavail College Starter Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Strong Island, NY	ladies and gentlemen - its Roger Goodell!

11-07-2007, 06:19 PM	#31
claretonmyshirt n00b Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: England	what do they call you then Mr Sarky Bastard

11-07-2007, 06:20 PM	#32
Ben E Lou Morgado's Favorite Forum Fascist Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Greensboro, NC	OK then...back to the issues at hand. Ramz did ask a good one: what leagues are people dropping out of or about to drop out of? __________________ The media don't understand the kinds of problems and pressures 54 million come wit'! Last edited by Ben E Lou : 11-07-2007 at 06:20 PM.

11-07-2007, 06:27 PM	#33
claretonmyshirt n00b Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: England	Sod what Mr sarky B@stard asked i'm still waiting for my answers, i'm not going to name names but if you where in one of my leagues may be two you'd know

11-07-2007, 06:28 PM	#34
Ben E Lou Morgado's Favorite Forum Fascist Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Greensboro, NC	I don't mean people...just leagues. __________________ The media don't understand the kinds of problems and pressures 54 million come wit'!

11-07-2007, 06:32 PM	#35
claretonmyshirt n00b Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: England	what do you want a know for ?

11-07-2007, 06:39 PM	#36
Ramzavail College Starter Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Strong Island, NY	(shhh...its the password for all your answers) just tell him...then FOF will speak. Last edited by Ramzavail : 11-07-2007 at 06:40 PM.

11-07-2007, 06:55 PM	#37
claretonmyshirt n00b Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: England	ramslittleboys or what ever your name is you got anything interesting to say if not fuck off

11-07-2007, 07:06 PM	#39
claretonmyshirt n00b Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: England	Most of them have openings normally don't they, the ENFL does i think if your looking for a team but i'm not in that league, i 'm sure you know a lt of leagues as you seem to post a hell of a lot on here

11-07-2007, 07:13 PM	#40
claretonmyshirt n00b Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: England	I play a single game as well as the Raiders and Russell's read is about 40 yet he throws in to double coverage less than other QB's who have much higher Read rating, yet the help manual says that the higher the read the less chance he will throw to the double coverage the only thing i can think of here is that the receiver in double coverage is more open than the guy in single coverage so he throws it to him. Thoughts? Last edited by claretonmyshirt : 11-07-2007 at 07:14 PM.

11-07-2007, 07:28 PM	#42
claretonmyshirt n00b Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: England	I've played about 30 games with them using solvision so i can basically write down the times each QB throws to or away from double coverage, from about 250 attempts where Russell could of thrown into double coverage he has done so about 20% of the time. His Read Rating has gone from 30 initially to about 46 now. 16 of the oppositions QB's had rating of above 50 rating upto 91 and they threw about 25% into double coverage, small sample but the only way really to do it is by watching game to game, but it stills seems to show something different to what the help files suggest.

11-07-2007, 07:42 PM	#44
claretonmyshirt n00b Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: England	but i would of thought that the scout would know how good he is now and that is what you should go on, so what your saying is that the sliders are not to be trusted in any shape or form and a player who rates as say 40 now with a future of 80 is better at this moment than a player who is at 60 and maxed out. If thats what your saying how can that make sense, i'm not saying your wrong as you seem to have run many tests etc just seems very strange to me. The same applies to HB's Jordan and Rhodes, both are maxed out Jordan is the better runner easily by the sliders yet Rhodes always has a higher YPC

11-07-2007, 08:07 PM	#46
claretonmyshirt n00b Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: England	sorry if i'm being thick here but what are you saying then ? If his Read Rating is 46 then allowing for a few points either way dependant on my scout surely his rating is below the other QB's and therefore his read is worse making him throw in to double coverage more than the other QB's who have a far higher rating. I have played Football Manager 1m copies sold for 10 years plus many other sports sims and FOF at times just does not make sense.

11-07-2007, 08:43 PM	#48
claretonmyshirt n00b Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: England	made sense to me

11-07-2007, 09:26 PM	#50
Julio Riddols College Prospect Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Bryson Shitty, NC	Dude.. Theres being rational, then theres this.. It doesn't seem to me you know a great deal about American Football, and I don't even mean that to be a negative comment. The problem is, instead of trying to be understanding about what you are being told, you are dismissing everyones answers because you think you are right no matter what. The game has some issues, but they are nowhere near the big deal you are making them out to be- If you expect the scout on your team to be right about everything, then youre overlooking the fact that scouts are human and humans make errors in judgement. The ratings you're talking about are being given to you by a scout who can be wrong. Theres a reason a guy like Rich Gannon or Jeff Hostetler didn't start for a majority of their career, thats because no one saw their talent. As far as stopping the short pass, its pretty simple, you can't really "stop" the short pass. Its a very high percentage play, but just like a run it can be stopped by playing sound defense and making tackles. If one team threw only short passes, not only would they increase the risk of a turnover on the long drives they have to go on (due to a missed blocking assignment or a bad throw into coverage, etc.) but they would also have a hard time being consistently successful. This is why long and intermediate passes and runs are essential to any offense. Therefore, to stop teams, maybe your focus should be on your overall defense, not so much stopping the short pass. Really, the short pass should be the least of your worries. For instance, look at the Colts this season, their pass defense is among the best in the league,allowing a QB rating of 72.9.. They are giving opponents 65.6% completion rates, but only allowing 5.6 yards per attempt, because they stop the deep pass. (only 12 passes over 20 yards, only 3 of those for more than 40) They simply tackle the short pass. There really is no stopping the short pass. Not even in the real NFL. __________________ Recklessly enthused, stubbornly amused. FUCK EA Last edited by Julio Riddols : 11-07-2007 at 09:33 PM.

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