Did This Highway Patrolman Use Excessive Force?

[duckman]

hxxp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMaMYL_shxc

The video above is a man being tased for refusing to put his hands behind his head after he refused to sign his traffic ticket.

[Radii]

I have a real hard time with this. It certainly seems like the officer was very quick with the taser, but at the same time if the guy turned out to have a knife or gun in his pocket it would change the circumstances entirely.

Bottom line is that you are a complete moron if you get pulled over and don't do exactly what the officer tells you... you can always fight it in court. In the face of a cop just is not the time to be playing constitutional scholar.

[Flasch186]

hmmmm, excessive?

Im going to vote yes and say he probably over-reacted at that time. He may have ended up doing the same thing 3-10 seconds later but at that moment I didn't see it as being necessary.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Radii

I have a real hard time with this. It certainly seems like the officer was very quick with the taser, but at the same time if the guy turned out to have a knife or gun in his pocket it would change the circumstances entirely.

Yep, exactly. If I had to pick one, I'd say slightly excessive, but it's hard to fault the officer too much. The guy did look like he was brushing off the cop and going back to the car. Then again, the officer should have been a bit more open saying "You are under arrest" and actually telling the guy why he was pulled over.

[lighthousekeeper]

excessive / unnecessary.

[Clark]

I said no. The kid looked like he was going to get back into his car and possibly drive away. Watch the kid attempt to reach into his pants pocket with his right hand when he walks away from the cop. No problem justifying his use of force.

[Clark]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Then again, the officer should have been a bit more open saying "You are under arrest" and actually telling the guy why he was pulled over.

He did tell him at least twice why he pulled him over.

[Drake]

Be a dick with the cops at your own peril. Oh yeah, and tell your girlfriend to stay in the car. I would have tased her, too, just for being an idiot.

[Chief Rum]

Excessive force? No.

Too quick? Yes.

As mentioned, probably should have waited another 3-10 seconds before resorting to the actual trigger. Probably a verbal warning that if the man continued to move toward the car, he would be tased. That probably would have stopped him.

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by Drake

Be a dick with the cops at your own peril.

QFT

[Crim]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Excessive force? No.

Too quick? Yes.

As mentioned, probably should have waited another 3-10 seconds before resorting to the actual trigger. Probably a verbal warning that if the man continued to move toward the car, he would be tased. That probably would have stopped him.

What CR said.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Radii

Bottom line is that you are a complete moron if you get pulled over and don't do exactly what the officer tells you... you can always fight it in court. In the face of a cop just is not the time to be playing constitutional scholar.

So true. You have to be a total dick to end up being tased by an officer. The argument about who shound be tased ends up somewhere between "total dick" and "massive retard", so it really doesn't effect us.

[Drake]

The more important question to me is: If your buddy brought home a taser from work, how many beers do you think you'd need before playing with it seemed like a good idea?

My personal over/under is probably 4.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Drake

The more important question to me is: If your buddy brought home a taser from work, how many beers do you think you'd need before playing with it seemed like a good idea?

My personal over/under is probably 4.

I can't honestly say I wouldn't play with a taser completely sober.

[Drake]

Dude, you live in Idaho. Do you expect me to believe that playing with a taser has never crossed your mind?

[Greyroofoo]

I think people in Idaho make love with the Smurf Turf

[Grammaticus]

The cop who shot the guy actually lies or gives information that is not true to the other cop. He says that he told the driver to "turn around right now or I taze you". This is incorrect, he told the driver to turn around a few times, then said "turn around right now" and tazed him with saying he was going to do it.

I'm not sure if that is a big deal or not. If there is some department procedure or protocol to give a warning before tazing in a non threatening situation (or any situation), then the cop failed.

Unfortunately both the cop and the driver were douches. If the cop had any kind of skill, he could have handled that without tazing. He was a lazy bum and is proof that cops (at lease some cops) are possibly over paid.

So who really cares beyond how this type of situation affects future regulation of tazer use?

[Atocep]

If I had a taser in my hand it would have taken more willpower than I could possibly muster not to tase the shit out of the stupid girlfiriend. Just for being stupid.

Therefore, I think he actually showed a bit of restraint.

[CU Tiger]

Don't taze me, bro....


Ok now that thats out of my system.

#1 I cant believe anyone thinks cops are over paid. I think starting salary around here is 26k/year and top pay for an officer(non detective, investigator or desk jockey) is 37k/year....uh yeah. GOOD DAMN MONEY THERE

While I think he probably could have waited, I would much prefer that he didnt and an "innocent" criminal got tazed (tased?) than he did wait and an innocent cop got shot. The tazer is not lethal force, but what (if anything) a potential criminal has is.

[ISiddiqui]

Brings up a good point. In some jurisdictions the police procedures classify a tazer are being only appropriate to be used to respond to potentially lethal force.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Drake

The more important question to me is: If your buddy brought home a taser from work, how many beers do you think you'd need before playing with it seemed like a good idea?

My personal over/under is probably 4.

1.5

But I'm a lightweight.

[DanGarion]

The guy was a complete ass and deserved what the officer did. He appeared to be reaching into his pocket and the officer had already shown the man that he had his taser drawn. If you are too stupid to notice that and continue to resist you deserve to be subdued in this way.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

That was total bullshit. First of all, refusing to sign a ticket is well within your rights. To start, there was absolutely no reason why the cop should have asked the guy to get out of the car, other than to go on some power trip because he was ticked that the guy told him he wouldn't sign it. Until he asked the guy to get out of the car, he was absolutely no threat whatsoever (notice how he supposedly lowers the wife's threat by telling her to get BACK into the car). Once he asked him to get out of the car for no reason, the cop elevated it to a potentially threatening situation that even necessitated the use of the taser; which of course he resorted to way too quickly. The cop used a potentially lethal weapon had the guy had any heart condition just cause he wanted to be a dick.

Bottom line, the cop didn't like the guy's attitude (a totally legal attitude), decided to show who's boss by ordering him out of the car, and then rammed the point home by tasering him right away. Can his fuckin' ass. Exactly the kind of power hungry 'tard you don't want enforcing the law.

I mean he tells the wife he was going to jail because he didn't sign his citation. Uh, wrong. And as already pointed out, he never told him he was arresting him. He tells the wife it "didn't have to go this way," and that's right, it only did because the cop was a power hungry trigger happy asshat. I love how he justifies the taser with the other cop with his story which is a totally inaccurate account of what we saw in the video.

NB. I'm all for cops getting rough when needed with criminals in all seriousness. But not with routine traffic stop of a guy driving with his pregnant wife. What a complete joke.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by dangarion

The guy was a complete ass and deserved what the officer did. He appeared to be reaching into his pocket and the officer had already shown the man that he had his taser drawn. If you are too stupid to notice that and continue to resist you deserve to be subdued in this way.

Yup. The guy gets out of the car, hand partially in pocket. A cop turns around and sees that and they are pulling their weapon every single time. You do not put your hands anywhere near your pockets when a cop is talking to you. And then he starts walking away (hand still in pocket), refusing to do what the cop says.

Not excessive force.

And I would have tazered the woman as a good deed for the human race.

[BYU 14]

That wasn't bullshit at all. Comply and have your day in court if you don't agree with it. The Driver even told the Officer "going a little fast huh?" when he pulled him over, then he wants to argue with him later? The rural highways in Utah are major drug corridors and unfortunately the couriers don't come with a sign that identifies them. Walking back to your Car and going into your pocket as you walk are enough to to take action when you are alone and don't know what is in the Car, or the pocket.

Sorry, this guy was being a smart ass and not complying with the Officers commands. I would rather have one harmless smartass tasered a little too quickly than another Police Officer killed because he was a little too patient. Don't be a fuckhead with the Police and there are no worries..

[Jas_lov]

Yeah, that guy was just stupid. He's telling the cop "What the heck is wrong with you?" and he's got one hand in his pocket while he's walking away from the cop and towards the car. Perhaps he used the taser a little too soon, but all the guy had to do was cooperate. It's usually wise to just comply, especially when he's got the taser gun pointed at you! I would not have tasered the pregnant wife just for being an idiot or as a good deed like some of you suggested above though. What the heck is wrong with you?

[Antmeister]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Excessive force? No.

Too quick? Yes.

As mentioned, probably should have waited another 3-10 seconds before resorting to the actual trigger. Probably a verbal warning that if the man continued to move toward the car, he would be tased. That probably would have stopped him.

I looked at this a few times and I can't really say it is too quick. Dude could have bolted for the car at any point. The fact that he continued to move away instead of just listening was already a bad sign.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Antmeister

I looked at this a few times and I can't really say it is too quick. Dude could have bolted for the car at any point. The fact that he continued to move away instead of just listening was already a bad sign.

Actually, he never got to the point of bolting, and it was only as he slowly turned toward the car that he "continued to move away". Pretty much the instant he started to turn, he got tazed. And it wasn't like he was obviously about to run either.

[Marc Vaughan]

The chap was stupid by arguing agressively with the cop, but the fact he reached for the tazer so fast scares the heck out of me personally.

In the UK at least if you tried to drive away you'd get done for much more than speeding so it'd be fairly unlikely someone would try and leave the scene - I'm presuming the cop had run the licence tag etc. before the point where he tazered the chap by the fact that he'd been to the car with them (hence he knew the car was his, the chap wasn't likely to be a criminal on the run etc.).

[jeff061]

Yes.

[jeff061]

And what's this about not signing a citation? They can use force to get you to sign things? And he did turn around, just didn't get his hands back there within a couple seconds cause he was confused.

Cops, they bother me. In this case it wasn't one of the bad ones, just your average one.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by jeff061

And what's this about not signing a citation? They can use force to get you to sign things? And he did turn around, just didn't get his hands back there within a couple seconds cause he was confused.

Cops, they bother me. In this case it wasn't one of the bad ones, just your average one.

The guy had already been given 5 minutes, how much more time of asshatery do you need?

[damnMikeBrown]

It's not the kid's job to be rationale & protect & serve. He can argue about a ticket. The cop is an absolute retard, and should be fired. Didn't follow his instructions to sign a citation. . .read me my rights..do you want another hit with this?

Cop sucks, lost control of -himself- and blew it.

Edit: Wow, then completely lies & makes up a story to support his reckless disregard for his duty.

[jeff061]

Originally Posted by dangarion

The guy had already been given 5 minutes, how much more time of asshatery do you need?

I saw about 5 seconds. Not sure what video you were watching.

Asked to step out of the car, he stepped out of the car. Asked to turn around and turned around. In the confusion he started walking away from the cruiser and didn't have his hands behind his back and was tased after a couple seconds of that.

I saw zero hostility or aggression.

[jeff061]

And if not signing a citation is grounds for a tasing, well that's just fucked up. No one should be forced to sign anything under any circumstance, ever.

[Crim]

Originally Posted by jeff061

No one should be forced to sign anything under any circumstance, ever.

Got authority issues much?

[jeff061]

Heh, yeah. Kind of do.

It's helped me more than hurt me. So far.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by jeff061

And if not signing a citation is grounds for a tasing, well that's just fucked up. No one should be forced to sign anything under any circumstance, ever.

Your not forced to sign, refuse and get arrested...freedom of choice, the guy chose to be an ass, ass got tasered. Where is the accountability when you do something wrong? Sign the ticket, shut the fuck up and be on your way.

[Shepp]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

Your not forced to sign, refuse and get arrested...freedom of choice, the guy chose to be an ass, ass got tasered. Where is the accountability when you do something wrong? Sign the ticket, shut the fuck up and be own your way.

+1

[jeff061]

See my post before that. Two seperate issues. He was not hostile or aggressive and was given just a few seconds prior to the tasing.

I was in a position a little while ago where a cop had me get out of my car. I was over by the guard rail and I took two steps towards my car and the cop snapped at me to sit down. The sudden hostility caught me off guard but I did, however I can see someone delaying for a few seconds out of surprise. And if this douche was the cop you get tazed.

And if the choice is an arrest or sign the ticket, then they should not require the ticket to get signed. I'm glad I haven't been in that position, CT, RI, MA, NH, never had to sign a ticket.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by jeff061

I saw about 5 seconds. Not sure what video you were watching.

Asked to step out of the car, he stepped out of the car. Asked to turn around and turned around. In the confusion he started walking away from the cruiser and didn't have his hands behind his back and was tased after a couple seconds of that.

I saw zero hostility or aggression.

How long is the video? I don't see the confusion, other then that the guy didn't want to comply with the cop. How hard is it to comply with an officer if you are pulled over? They guy was being an ass from the moment he was pulled over to the moment he was tased.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by jeff061

I was in a position a little while ago where a cop had me get out of my car. I was over by the guard rail and I took two steps towards my car and the cop snapped at me to sit down. The sudden hostility caught me off guard but I did, however I can see someone delaying for a few seconds out of surprise. And if this douche was the cop you get tazed.

See, you know what your intent is but the cop doesn't. He has to consider his own safety in all situations and something as little as you moving toward your car is cause for alarm. The cop doesn't know what you or anyone else is thinking and must maintain control of a situation or he puts his life at risk.

It isn't hard to follow directions. If you can't do what a cop tells you, you're a dick, and you act like its not a big deal then you deserve to get tased. The simple fact is this could have been avoided if the guy would have done what he was told. He refused to sign the ticket, the cop arrested him, he started moving away from the cop towards his car, and the cop did what he felt he needed to do. It is not an easy situation to be in so second guessing him as you replay the video multiple times doesn't do anything.

The guy should have signed the ticket and if he felt it was BS then he has his day in court. That is how you handle the situation. You don't try and pull the shit he did on the side of the round with a cop that is alone. You're asking for trouble.

[Huckleberry]

This thread is embarrassing.

A taser is a potentially lethal weapon. Tasers are supposed to take the place of a firearm in certain situations.

You do not shoot or taser a citizen because he is justifiably upset that you're an asshole. I hope some of you people are railroaded by a cop someday and then tasered because you object. Would serve you right.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Huckleberry

This thread is embarrassing.

A taser is a potentially lethal weapon. Tasers are supposed to take the place of a firearm in certain situations.

You do not shoot or taser a citizen because he is justifiably upset that you're an asshole. I hope some of you people are railroaded by a cop someday and then tasered because you object. Would serve you right.

As someone who served in the army for 9 years and has done more than my fair share of patrols, the second that guy starts moving away you have to make a judgement call. In hindsight you can sit there and say he did the wrong thing, but it was his call and when you look at the situations surrounding it he had reason to be alarmed.

The girl could have easily found herself tased as well when she got out of the SUV. She could have easily grabbed a gun out of the glovebox.

This situation could have been avoided with a second officer there or by the guy doing what he was told. I really wish anyone that thinks this was excessive force could be in a situation like that one time. Everything isn't black and white and you don't get to replay it over and over breaking things down.

[jeff061]

Civilian does not equal army. No issue with this in a war zone or a hostile country. I'm leniant about this stuff in general. But this was just ridiculous.

This was a guy pulled over for speeding, WHO WAS FOLLOWING ORDERS. Just not quickly enough.

[CU Tiger]

My biggest issue iss the kids right hand, it stays in and moving in his pocket.
As an LEO that has to scare you.

The ticket signing doesnt say you agree with it, only that it was issued. And in UT YES you HAVE to sign it. It is actually to protect drivers from having tickets written on them that they never see.


The kid was not confused, he just didnt like what he was told, and was DEFINITELY walking back towards the car. Cop was a bit jumpy and unholstered the Taze too soon imho...but based on that one hand the kid is lucky he didnt take a bullet.

When you are pulled over put both damn hands on the wheel or where they can be seen, and treat the cop with respect. Hell I got a speeding tickt Tuesday and me and the cop laughed about it.
Yes it sucks.
yes Ill pay a lawyer.
But shit happens he is just doing his job.

[Noop]

Excessive.

[jeff061]

Looked to me like he was turning around to walk away from the cruiser, since the cop was flipping out when he got too close.

When you are pulled over put both damn hands on the wheel or where they can be seen, and treat the cop with respect.

I do the same thing. Doesn't have any bearing on this though.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by jeff061

Civilian does not equal army. No issue with this in a war zone or a hostile country. I'm leniant about this stuff in general. But this was just ridiculous.

This was a guy pulled over for speeding, WHO WAS FOLLOWING ORDERS. Just not quickly enough.

I've done more than just patrols. I've done guard duty at base gates where I've pulled people over. I've had situations where I've chased people on foot after they jumped a fence leaving post. I've seen a person that had been in custody attempt to flee a base in a vehicle. Army life is a lot more than patrols through combat zones.

It comes down to judgement calls in each situation. You can not have training for every possible scenario and you have to act in a way you see fit. The guy was not following orders. He was told to sign the ticket. He was then arrested and started moving toward his car and away from the place where he was being detained while reaching into his pocket. The cop was in a bad situation by being out there alone and in that situation he has to make sure he maintains control AT ALL TIMES. You try and do you're own thing at your own risk.

The fact that this issue is split shows how difficult of a call this would have been to make on the fly. I have the utmost respect for those in law enforcement and those that don't are why situations like this happen. Do what you're told and this doesn't happen. Hell, if the guy had just stayed at the patrol car and not moved back toward his vehicle it wouldn't have happened.

Like I said, I really wish people could experience a situation like that. I can't imagine being in a situation like that alone.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Grammaticus

He was a lazy bum and is proof that cops (at lease some cops) are possibly over paid.

This comment disgusts me. Its sad to see people actually think like this.