Who goes into the HOF first? Rose, Bonds or Clemens

[DeToxRox]

With all of the hooplah going on over the Mitchell Report and steroids in baseball in general a lot of people talk about not allowing these people in the Hall, or at least not first ballot. On the flipside, Pete Rose has been outcasted from the Hall for belittling the integrity of the game, but by all accounts doing so without changing the outcome of games.

So if you had only one vote for the HOF, who would you vote for the HOF, if any of the three, and why?

[Shkspr]

If Rose bet on his teams to win games, he most certainly changed the outcome of the games by managing in such a way as to maximize the chances to win those particular games rather than the championship. That said...

Rose never gets in because he has lacked the humility and repentance necessary to appease the press. Likewise, Bonds was such a focus of the steroid era for so long and has such an antagonistic relationship with the press that he never gets in - the steroid thing provides writers with a convenient excuse to snub him even though he's one of the top 5 hitters in history. Clemens, however, becomes guilty only alongside a whole lot of other players, and I think as time recedes, everyone from the steroid controversy with the exception of Bonds and possibly McGwire will have their transgressions overlooked.

[Cringer]

Bonds is losing.

[Radii]

My answer would be "whoever retires first(and for good) between Clemens and Bonds"

They may not get in on the first ballot but both I think get in very easily within a few years of eligibility.

[Hammer755]

Originally Posted by Radii

My answer would be "whoever retires first(and for good) between Clemens and Bonds"

" "

Betting >>>>> PED's.

I also don't believe the concept that "by all accounts doing so without changing the outcome of games." That's simply not true. Rose admitted to betting on the Reds.

A lot of people afforded him some leniency because he says he only bet on the Reds to win, but I still have problems with that for a couple of reasons - 1.) He's changed his story so many times, I don't know how anyone can believe anything he says, 2.) Even if it is true, betting on your team to win brings the exact same problems as betting on them to lose, but instead of juggling lineups/rotations, etc. to put your worst players in the game, you do it to put your best players in the game. Going all out to win today's game that you have a bet riding on may mean forfeiting your chances of winning tomorrow's game which, IMO, is "changing the outcome of games".

[RomaGoth]

I say f 'em all. Seriously. Clemens is an obvious cheater, yes he was a dominant pitcher prior to the alleged use of HGH, but he was most definately on the decline when he went to Toronto. Take away 100-150 of his wins because of the cheating, and he becomes a much more average pitcher with some really dominant years in his past. Would he go to the HOF based upon that? Hard to say, but probably yes. He was a shoo-in prior to the steroid mess. Now, if he ever gets in at all it won't be on the first ballot, and probably not on the second one either.

Bonds is just an a-hole. Yes, he has huge career numbers, but being a jerk to the media has repercussions, just ask Jim Rice and Jack Morris. Bonds will eventually get in based upon his great numbers, but he is also not a first timer.

Pete Rose will never get in. So much time has gone by since his betting exploits first became public knowledge, yet people still remember it very clearly. He will not come clean even to this day, always changing his story and has yet to truly apologize for his actions. In addition to the above info, Rose is also a jerk to the media. Should he get in? In my opinion, probably yes because his gambling has nothing to do with his playing career. Bonds and Clemens are a little different in that they took performance enhancing drugs to increase their stats. Bonds will someday get in, not so sure about Clemens anymore. Rose will forever be on the outside looking in because he had direct influence on the outcomes of baseball games, and the voters will never forget that.

[Hammer755]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

Bonds is just an a-hole. Yes, he has huge career numbers, but being a jerk to the media has repercussions, just ask Jim Rice and Jack Morris. Bonds will eventually get in based upon his great numbers, but he is also not a first timer.

So were Ted Williams and Ty Cobb, but their numbers transcended their personalities, just as Bonds' do (steroids notwithstanding, obviously).

[Pumpy Tudors]

Of the three, I think Clemens gets in first, and then Bonds gets in afterwards, and maybe Pete Rose gets in after he dies.

[Butter]

Originally Posted by Radii

My answer would be "whoever retires first(and for good) between Clemens and Bonds"

They may not get in on the first ballot but both I think get in very easily within a few years of eligibility.

My answer also. I think they may go in together after this past season... who is going to sign them now?

[CU Tiger]

Clemens, easily.
You guys are forgetting one thing. WHile Clemens is a scumbag like the other two, he also is more intelligent than a 7 year old. Pete has looked like a blubbering idiot far too long to need explanation, barry appears dead in the water all becuase he couldnt keep lil barry in his pants (I mean GOS almost isnt possible w/o the mistress) I think Clemens will run circles around these accusations and position himself properly, to largely shrug this off in a year or two.

[Jas_lov]

Personally I feel F em all! But I think Clemens and Bonds will eventually get in. Clemens might on the 1st ballot depending on what happens between now and then. Bonds may take a little longer if he even gets in at all depending on what happens between now and then. I don't think Rose has a chance in hell. Have they announced next year's inductees yet? Did McGwire's % go up at all?

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

Clemens, easily.
You guys are forgetting one thing. WHile Clemens is a scumbag like the other two, he also is more intelligent than a 7 year old. Pete has looked like a blubbering idiot far too long to need explanation, barry appears dead in the water all becuase he couldnt keep lil barry in his pants (I mean GOS almost isnt possible w/o the mistress) I think Clemens will run circles around these accusations and position himself properly, to largely shrug this off in a year or two.

Clemens is guilty by not vehemently proclaiming his innocence. He has yet to speak on the issue in person rather than through his lawyer. Also, his lawyer stated that Roger will speak when the time is right. WTF??? The time was right about a week ago I believe. He should have come right out and either confirmed or denied the accusations. By sitting quietly, we all know he is guilty. I know if somebody accused me of something I didn't do, I would be all over the place protecting my reputation. Maybe it is a personality trait, but even with that argument Roger would have already come out and said something. I mean, this guy has been very vocal about things in the past. Why not about this?

[DaddyTorgo]

they can all go f*ck themselves as far as i'm concerned.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

Bonds is just an a-hole. Yes, he has huge career numbers, but being a jerk to the media has repercussions, just ask Jim Rice and Jack Morris. Bonds will eventually get in based upon his great numbers, but he is also not a first timer.

I'm trying to ponder the stupidity of someone who thinks Jack Morris and Jim Rice are remotely comparable to Barry Bonds in terms of value. Morris is a good pitcher who shouldn't be in the HOF even if they doubled the size, and Rice is a Hall of Very Good Guy. Barry Bonds is one of the 5 best players of all time.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

they can all go f*ck themselves as far as i'm concerned.

Now THAT is the attitude I like to see. You hear that MLB???

GO F*CK YOURSELVES!!!!

(I agree with you)

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

I'm trying to ponder the stupidity of someone who thinks Jack Morris and Jim Rice are remotely comparable to Barry Bonds in terms of value. Morris is a good pitcher who shouldn't be in the HOF even if they doubled the size, and Rice is a Hall of Very Good Guy. Barry Bonds is one of the 5 best players of all time.

I don't care enough about any of them to bother arguing about it. Do you need to ponder that too?

[Karlifornia]

The Hall Of Fame is stupid, and if you've ever been there, you know how boring it is. I was bored by it, and I was a 12 year old die-hard baseball fan.

[ISiddiqui]

Bonds. Steroids or not, it's hard to ignore those numbers... and especially the numbers before he was alleged to have taken them.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Karlifornia

The Hall Of Fame is stupid, and if you've ever been there, you know how boring it is. I was bored by it, and I was a 12 year old die-hard baseball fan.

+1,000,000

[DanGarion]

I vote Pete. Especially after watching him on Sports Unfiltered a days ago.

[rowech]

Race will play a factor in this as Clemens will get in and Bonds won't.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

Clemens is guilty by not vehemently proclaiming his innocence. He has yet to speak on the issue in person rather than through his lawyer. Also, his lawyer stated that Roger will speak when the time is right. WTF??? The time was right about a week ago I believe. He should have come right out and either confirmed or denied the accusations. By sitting quietly, we all know he is guilty. I know if somebody accused me of something I didn't do, I would be all over the place protecting my reputation. Maybe it is a personality trait, but even with that argument Roger would have already come out and said something. I mean, this guy has been very vocal about things in the past. Why not about this?

I disagree 100%.
I think the fact that Clemens hasnt made a public appearance or wagged a finger shows that he is quietly seeking the advice of good legal counsel.
I will not be shocked to see multiple suits filed in the next few weeks, which are then eventually quietly settled behind closed doors.

I think time will prove that Roger is waging an image on his public image.

[oliegirl]

I love baseball almost as much as I love College Football, however I don't follow it like I used to because of all the BS going on with Steroids. It got to the point where I just got frustrated and said "fuck it".

In my opinion, if what Bonds/Clemens/all the other steroid users in baseball didn't take something that is "illegal" and "banned" from baseball, then there isn't much baseball can do to keep them out of the HOF, and I doubt the media will keep them out although there will be some in the media who refuse to vote for them based on their alleged (or proved) use. However, on a personal and ethical level, I think that anyone who took performance enhancing drugs, banned or not, shouldn't be allowed in. I think the time has come for baseball and the media to take a really hard line on this issue and the only way to effectively and permanently do so is to make someone out as the "poster boy", ala Martha Stewart. I'd like nothing more than to see that person be Bonds, but at this point I really don't care who it is as long as it's done and the whole situation is resolved by declaring performance enhancing drugs of any kind illegal in baseball.

As for Pete Rose, I was young and not a huge sports fan when this went down, so I admit I don't know all the gory details. But to me, what he did by betting on baseball and betting on his own games, was so negative and it left such a tarnish on the sport, that it "undoes" any good he did during his career. Maybe, if he'd come out and sincerely apologized, convinced the public (or the majority of the public) that he was sorry for his actions, I'd feel differently, but he didn't and I don't.

So the short answer is that I vote "F 'em all".

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

I disagree 100%.
I think the fact that Clemens hasnt made a public appearance or wagged a finger shows that he is quietly seeking the advice of good legal counsel.
I will not be shocked to see multiple suits filed in the next few weeks, which are then eventually quietly settled behind closed doors.

I think time will prove that Roger is waging an image on his public image.

Then we agree to disagree. My belief is Roger Clemens is now stuck between a rock and a hard place. He doesn't want to be viewed as a cheater, but he knows that we know he took the stuff. I sincerely doubt that George Mitchell would put ANY names in a report that could come back and bite him in the ass later. I also would bet that Clemens didn't expect his butt buddy Petitte to actually come out and admit HGH use to the public. So now he is pretty much screwed no matter what he does.

Good for all of them. They can all rot in baseball hell, or the place we call Cooperstown.

[RomaGoth]

In a related topic, Derek Jeter came out today and told us not to judge Clemens and Pettite too harshly. WTF?? Yeah, sure, Jeter. The people that pay yours and their salary should not judge them too harshly. Where were you when A-Rod was being murdered in the media and by the fans 2 years ago?? Not that I am a big fan of A-Rod, but geez, how does a guy protect a cheater like Clemens but not a guy like Rodriguez? They must really be on the outs now. At any rate, I lost a ton of respect for Jeter now and am inching ever closer to not caring or watching baseball again. It is all a joke.