The Skins sign ANOTHER Jet and ANOTHER multimillion salary!

AgPete · 03-09-2003, 11:01 PM

They love the Jets this year! They're about to sign Laveranues Coles now.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/columns/pasqu...n/1520968.html

I think it's a great move for a fun and gun offense but $13 million bonus?!

They better hope their running backs can do the job and Ramsey will be good enough in his second year. They had better win now because they won't have any money left to sign anyone else for the next 2-3 years.

SegRat · 03-09-2003, 11:20 PM

I want to know how the hell they can afford anyone!!!! Every year they are signing guys to insane amounts of money, but the next year they do it all over again.
When they signed D. Sanders, it was a huge contract. Where the hell do they keep finding the money.

oykib · 03-09-2003, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SegRat
I want to know how the hell they can afford anyone!!!! Every year they are signing guys to insane amounts of money, but the next year they do it all over again.
When they signed D. Sanders, it was a huge contract. Where the hell do they keep finding the money.

Serious. There's got to be something funny going on witht the skins cap.

bigdawg2003 · 03-10-2003, 01:01 AM

$13 million dollar bonuses go to ace, #1 sure threat WRs like Owens and Harrison, not someone like Coles. And this contract is bigger than the one Peerless Price got. Who would you rather have?

EDIT: If Coles signs the offer sheet and the Jets dont match (which they would be foolish to do), they would receive the 13th pick in the draft. Did the other 30 owners (not including Houston) let snyder in cause they knew he would do stupid crap like this?

SirFozzie · 03-10-2003, 01:21 AM

Big Dawg.. I'm not sure they know. Here's how stupid they were earlier:

Their offer sheet for Chad Morton require a Fifth round pick. Only, you see, the Skins already traded their Fifth round pick (9th in the round) away.. so at that point, the offer sheet was not valid.

The pick has to be AS good or better in the fifth round. They go looking about, and see the Patriots fifth round pick is above that, and they call the Patriots, and ask them.. "Can we trade for your fifth round pick?"

The Pats already had two picks in that round (Trust me, it's important later), so they swung a deal, the Pats fifth round pick to Washington for a 7th rounder this year and a fourth rounder this year.

They swing a deal, and all is well, until the Redskins come back to the league and says "Here we go.. see?" The league takes a look, and says.. nuh uh.. nope.. sorry.. the pick is not as good as your fifth rounder, the offer sheet is still not valid.

The Redskins go.. "uh.. what?" Then they re-read the trade. The Patriots had given them their fifth round pick all right, it's just that they had multiple picks in the round, and the one the Redskins wanted was acquired by the Patriots from Dallas. The Patriots had traded THEIR fifth round pick, which isn't as good as the Skins, to Washington.

So the Redskins had to go back to the Patriots and swing ANOTHER deal, and this time the Patriots had them over a barrell, after all, if the Skins don't have that pick, the offer sheet goes away.. (and I'm sure they get fined by the league). Washington agreed to swap picks with the Patriots in the THIRD round, (moving the Pats up six picks), PLUS the Skins 4th round pick next year, for the pick that came from Dallas. I guess they also nullified the old trade.

Now, the Jets have until Thursday to match the offer sheet, and it looks like they will.. So in effect, the Skins traded down six spots in this year's third round, and gave up their fourth round pick next year.. for the Dallas pick in the fifth round this year.

Makes you wince to be a Skins fan don't it?

(edit: Changed one of the picks to the proper location, this all came from a story in the Boston Globe today)

Tarkus · 03-10-2003, 01:51 AM

Here's what the Jets do if they are smart. Now keep in mind I don't mind Bradway not offering Coles $35 mil, that's ridiculous, but his HUGE mistake was not tendering him at $1.8 mil. Because of that the schmuck cost his team a third round pick, which would have been extremely beneficial.

With that being said, this is what the Jets will do:

1. They will not match for Morton

2. They will not match for Coles

3. With the 13th pick in the draft the New York Jets select a DT, either Joseph, Williams, or Robertson depending on who's available.

4. With the 22nd pick in the draft the Jets select Kelly Washington. This guy is big, fast, strong, and has soft hands. Also, he's apparently healthy. He's 6'3", 225, and runs somewhere between a 4.3 and 4.4 40.

If the Jets can work this they'd be set. Truthfully, I'd be tempted to grab Washington with the 13th pick if he's healthy, and then grab either Boss Bailey or a DT with the 22nd pick.

I'm so pissed they won't get a third round pick, they could have packaged it with a first and moved up and gotten Washington and an elite DT for sure.

You heard it hear first, this is what the Jets are going to do.

Tarkus

wade moore · 03-10-2003, 04:07 AM

Didn't see a link and I haven't been keeping up this weekend..

Why do the Jets get the 13th pick if the Skins do this?

AgPete · 03-10-2003, 05:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by wade moore
Didn't see a link and I haven't been keeping up this weekend..

Why do the Jets get the 13th pick if the Skins do this?

Because he's a restricted free agent.

cthomer5000 · 03-10-2003, 05:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tarkus
Here's what the Jets do if they are smart. Now keep in mind I don't mind Bradway not offering Coles $35 mil, that's ridiculous, but his HUGE mistake was not tendering him at $1.8 mil. Because of that the schmuck cost his team a third round pick, which would have been extremely beneficial.

I disagree. I don't think anyone would have tried signing him if they tendered him a 1.8 million. So Bradway didn't cost the Jets a 3rd round pick, he basically cost them the right to exclusively negotiate with Coles.

cthomer5000 · 03-10-2003, 05:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bigdawg2003
And this contract is bigger than the one Peerless Price got. Who would you rather have?

I'd rather have the one who was the #1 receiver on his own team, facing the best coverage week in and week out - Laverenues Coles.

Fritz · 03-10-2003, 05:57 AM

I think this is a bad deal for Coles. He will get more money, but I am willing to bet his career will be destroyed. In 2 to 3 years he will be a backup somewhere.

cthomer5000 · 03-10-2003, 06:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fritz
I think this is a bad deal for Coles. He will get more money, but I am willing to bet his career will be destroyed. In 2 to 3 years he will be a backup somewhere.

Why do you think that? Either he stays in New York as a well-paid starter or moves to Washingon in a pass crazy offense. He's also insanely fast, so should be great for the Redskin offense.

Being a Jet fan I really want him to stay, but for Laveranues I think it's win-win.

AgPete · 03-10-2003, 06:11 AM

I agree, I don't see how playing under Spurrier can be detrimental to any wide receiver's career.

Bee · 03-10-2003, 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by cthomer5000

I'd rather have the one who was the #1 receiver on his own team, facing the best coverage week in and week out - Laverenues Coles. [/b]

That's exactly what I was thinking.

I might not want him over Price when you throw in the 13th pick overall though when compared to the 23rd.

Honolulu_Blue · 03-10-2003, 07:13 AM

Coles is a very good receiver. I've had him on a number of fantasy squads. He produces. Washington desperately wants (and needs) to upgrade the wide receiver position. They are committed to Spurrier's offense and need to assemble the necessary parts. They allegedly tried to trade up in the draft in order to get Andre Johnson or Charles Rogers. They can still pursue this course of action if the Jets match their offer for Coles. At this point, I guess, their thinking is that Coles is worth the money and he is better than anyone they can get with the #13 pick in this draft. That could be true.

One great receiver, tried and tested in the NFL, is better than taking a gamble.

Fritz · 03-10-2003, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by cthomer5000
Why do you think that? Either he stays in New York as a well-paid starter or moves to Washingon in a pass crazy offense. He's also insanely fast, so should be great for the Redskin offense.

Being a Jet fan I really want him to stay, but for Laveranues I think it's win-win.

Free Agency is littered with highly paid WRs that do nothing when moving to a new team. I know you can find examples of ones who did well, but I think it is a huge crapshoot to leave a place where you have success.

cthomer5000 · 03-10-2003, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fritz
Free Agency is littered with highly paid WRs that do nothing when moving to a new team. I know you can find examples of ones who did well, but I think it is a huge crapshoot to leave a place where you have success.

Althought that may be true, it doesn't make it a valid observation. Looking at the specificis of this situation it is difficult to see how a player so young and so good, moving into a pass-heavy offense can be hurting his career.

If you can tell me why he will flop in Washington I'll start listening.

AgPete · 03-10-2003, 08:14 AM

I actually believe Peerless Price has a better chance of failing than Coles. CTHomer mentioned this too. The high priced receivers that usually seem to fail a lot are the ones that move from teams where they either have good complimentary receivers around them or aren't used to being THE man. Joey Galloway, Keyshawn Johnson, etc. are all guys that never faced the same intense coverage on their former teams and I'm willing to bet Peerless Price will be surprised about the coverage he faces now that Eric Moulds isn't opposite him. Gardner and Coles ain't that bad of a duo but the Skins sure are putting a lot of faith in Ramsey.

Bee · 03-10-2003, 08:20 AM

The biggest cause for concern with Coles playing in DC would be Spurrier's attitude towards players. He not only plays musical chairs with his quarterbacks, he does it with his receivers as well. Unless the coach settles down, Coles may come in as the #1 receiver and by week 3 be the #3 receiver. Also, in Spurrier's offense the receiver has to read the defense the same way as the quarterback to be successful. I don't know how well Coles will be at doing this since the Jets offense is more reliant on the quarterback making adjustments to the receivers. Finally, another concern is the quarterback situation in DC. In NY, Coles has had Testaverde and Pennington throwing him the ball (2 pretty good quarterbacks). In DC, it looks like Ramsey and Rob Johnson (1 unproven QB and 1 bad QB).

There are definitely some issues that could hurt Coles in the move, but that's not to say he can't overcome them and have a career best season.

Fritz · 03-10-2003, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by cthomer5000
If you can tell me why he will flop in Washington I'll start listening.

Then don't listen, but write down my prediction on a sticky and put it on the last page of your address book. We can revist this next January.

Ksyrup · 03-10-2003, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AgPete
I actually believe Peerless Price has a better chance of failing than Coles. CTHomer mentioned this too. The high priced receivers that usually seem to fail a lot are the ones that move from teams where they either have good complimentary receivers around them or aren't used to being THE man. Joey Galloway, Keyshawn Johnson, etc. are all guys that never faced the same intense coverage on their former teams and I'm willing to bet Peerless Price will be surprised about the coverage he faces now that Eric Moulds isn't opposite him. Gardner and Coles ain't that bad of a duo but the Skins sure are putting a lot of faith in Ramsey.

This is called the "Alvin Harper Effect."

Bee · 03-10-2003, 08:49 AM

Sounds like the Redskins are still pursuing Kevin Dyson as well. Could be an interesting group of receivers in DC next season.

Subby · 03-10-2003, 09:45 AM

I actually like this better than the rumored deals of packaging Smoot and #13 to move up and grab Rogers or Johnson. This way they keep Smoot, don't have to face a possible holdout, and have a receiver that is already proven. Redskins fans have been burned repeatedly by highly drafted WRs (Michael Westbrook or Desmond Howard, anyone?) and Coles is no fluke. In fact, he has gotten it done while being subjected to double coverage (unlike Peerless Price who frequently enjoyed single coverage.)

I know one thing for sure - Coles will be a hell of a lot more successful in Washington than Derrius Thompson will be in Miami...

Tarkus · 03-10-2003, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by cthomer5000

I disagree. I don't think anyone would have tried signing him if they tendered him a 1.8 million. So Bradway didn't cost the Jets a 3rd round pick, he basically cost them the right to exclusively negotiate with Coles. [/b]

You're right, he's an even bigger schmuck than I thought.

Tarkus

Logan · 03-10-2003, 10:31 AM

I think this works out well for the Jets if they don't match the offer sheet. I feel like it would be possible to use the Skins 13th overall pick, and maybe their second rounder, to trade up into the top 10 and grab Andre Johnson. They still have their own 1st at 22 to select a DT.

Bee · 03-10-2003, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Logan
I think this works out well for the Jets if they don't match the offer sheet. I feel like it would be possible to use the Skins 13th overall pick, and maybe their second rounder, to trade up into the top 10 and grab Andre Johnson. They still have their own 1st at 22 to select a DT.

The problem with that is the Jets are close to competing now. How many rookie WR's have an impact? It usually takes a couple years to really get it together at WR. Coles is a prime example. Look at his career and you'll see last year was his breakout season. The Jets need players that can play this season, not 2-3 years from now.

damnMikeBrown · 03-10-2003, 11:42 AM

Would you rather have your moronic GM have you on the brink of salary cap hell year in & year out... OR

Would you rather have your moronic GM have your team $12 million to $8 million under the salary cap year in & year out AND not field a competitive squad for over a decade?

If you chose the latter, Congratulations! You're a Bengals fan!

Logan · 03-10-2003, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bee
The problem with that is the Jets are close to competing now. How many rookie WR's have an impact? It usually takes a couple years to really get it together at WR. Coles is a prime example. Look at his career and you'll see last year was his breakout season. The Jets need players that can play this season, not 2-3 years from now.

I agree completely. It's just that I don't think the Jets are going to want to give him that contract. Also, they have been saying that they want to add a big receiver to go with Moss and Chrebet (and Coles, for that matter). Johnson would fit there.

Havok · 03-10-2003, 12:26 PM

People rag on Syndur all the time but i love the guy. He may be a little crazy sometimes and still a little wet behind the ears but he's the biggest Redskin fan in the D.C. area. He'll do whatever it takes to win and spend any amount of money he has to. Ill admit he screwed up a couple years ago when he signed all those veterans to huge contracts like Deion, but he learned his lesson. Now he's out there signing young talented guys like Trotter last year and now Thomas and Coles this year. He'll win us a few superbowls eventually. There's no doubt in my mind.

And since we love signing jets so much this year.... I'd love it if we traded for Pennington!!!! He's an outright stud!!

Bee · 03-10-2003, 12:28 PM

I like Snyder too. He wants to win and that's more than at least half the other owners in the NFL can say. He's made mistakes, but every move he makes is trying to improve the team. I wish Paul Allen were a little more aggressive like Snyder.

Tarkus · 03-10-2003, 12:37 PM

Okay, if Coles ends up a Redskin he's off my Madden 2003 team! That'll teach him!

On a serious note, I don't think the Jets should trade up. They should pick Kelly Washington at #13 (he should be there), a DT or OLB at 22, and a safety in the second round. Kelly Washington could be the best receiver in the draft, better than Rogers or Johnson. He was injured last year and there some character questions, but if he's healthy he's definitely a talent. I say grab this guy!

Tarkus

RonnieDobbs · 03-10-2003, 05:06 PM

I love this move and I love this offseason.

Coles is a burner and an established threat. He was great last season. He is exactly the type of receiver we want. Would we get a better receiver at the 13th pick? Rogers and Johnson and gone, so I say no. Sure, it's a lot of money, but I think he'll produce. I'd have to agree that I'd rather have Coles than Price at the same money. Our offense NEEDS effective receivers, and we got one.

jetpunk2000 · 03-10-2003, 05:38 PM

I'm still trying to figure out where all this cap room is coming from. That being said, I think the Jets are in a very tough spot here. My heart says let him go, he's not worth that much against the cap, but my brain says who the hell is out there to take his place?

Tarkus · 03-10-2003, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jetpunk2000
I'm still trying to figure out where all this cap room is coming from. That being said, I think the Jets are in a very tough spot here. My heart says let him go, he's not worth that much against the cap, but my brain says who the hell is out there to take his place?

Kelly Washington

Tarkus

jetpunk2000 · 03-10-2003, 06:08 PM

Well, apparently Bradway is looking at UFA's and "street" people to "band-aid" the position. He's also intrigued by the 13th pick. So it looks like they won't match for Coles. He sounded like he was going to match Morton though. Good move there anyway.

Bee · 03-10-2003, 06:28 PM

Most of the cap room came from releasing Stephen Davis. The Redskins have already taken the cap hits from Deion and those guys who they overpaid for a couple years ago. Most of the guys they've been signing have been signed for relatively cheap contracts. The only big dollar guy was the guard and now Coles.

You have to be impressed with how fast the Redskins struck in free agency. Half the teams are still trying to evaluate the players available and the Redskins have basically finished their shopping. There was an interesting article by Len Pasquelli on espn.com about the Dan and how he went into this free agency period better prepared than just about anyone else.

cthomer5000 · 03-10-2003, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tarkus
Kelly Washington

Tarkus

Who's out here to take his place this year, rather than 3 years from now?

Tarkus · 03-10-2003, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cthomer5000
Who's out here to take his place this year, rather than 3 years from now?

Washington will do it in two years, which is how long it will take the Jets to get their defense to the point where they can contend for the Super Bowl.

Tarkus

cthomer5000 · 03-10-2003, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tarkus
Washington will do it in two years, which is how long it will take the Jets to get their defense to the point where they can contend for the Super Bowl.

Tarkus

I don't see eye to eye with you here. I think either they have to keep Coles and try to make a title run this season or not match the offer, blow up the linebacking corps and try to make it next year or the year after.

You might be right about Washington, but I'd be really angry if the Jets let Coles go...

jetpunk2000 · 03-10-2003, 06:59 PM

Quote:

You might be right about Washington, but I'd be really angry if the Jets let Coles go...

Well Bradway was on the radio before and sounded pretty much resigned to letting Coles go...Maybe he was bluffing but he sounded convincing.

Iceberg · 03-10-2003, 07:04 PM

they are overpaying for coles but assuming they get him they have given this offense an incredible makeover. The guard problems that plagued them last year will be solved and they now have backs suited for the fun and gun. The last piece of the puzzle seemed to be the burner that they are getting in coles. Gardner was no #1 reciever, coles is. I think as long as ballcoach commits to Ramsey he will have a breakout season. Last year dropped passes and poor protection made it impossible for the kid to do anything but mark my word he will be good.

kcchief19 · 03-10-2003, 07:10 PM

I will take any bets from anyone who thinks is a great move.

First, the claim that Coles is an "established" NFL receiver is ridiculous. He's had one very nice year. His first two years in the NFL he couldn't hold on to the ball and couldn't run patterns. He played well last year (contract year), but one year does not a career make.

Second, he's small. He's listed at 5-11 and I doubt he is that. Third, WRs rarely perform well moving to a new system in the NFL in the first year -- so do you think Coles, who couldn't learn the easiest offense in the NFL for two years, is going to pick up Spurrier's sytem on the fly?

Coles is a nice player -- he's just not worth a $13 million signing bonus. It's a reach and a waste of a first-round draft pick.

As far as the cap goes, you can make the numbers work easily. It's a $35 million deal, but the number for year one is $2.3. The catch is that most teams don't have enough money to pay out the bonus. Snyder is probably going to spend upwards of $125-150 million this year on bonuses and payroll. Most teams are not willing to go into deficit spending to pay bonuses, so they are not going to go nuts like The Dan.

wade moore · 03-10-2003, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AgPete
Because he's a restricted free agent.

I understand that, but what merits a 1st rounder rather than saythe 5th that morton warranted?

cthomer5000 · 03-10-2003, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wade moore
I understand that, but what merits a 1st rounder rather than saythe 5th that morton warranted?

The level at which a player is tendered an offer.

If you tender them an offer at the lowest level you have right of first refusal - and if losing them receive a pick in the round in which the player was selected

If you tender the player and offer at the middle amoutn, a first round draft pick is the price.

If you tender them at the highest amount it's a first and third round pick.

damnMikeBrown · 03-11-2003, 01:38 AM

Ok, cthomer, you have the knowledge it seems. In a related vein, a Franchised player takes 2 first rounders if not matched? Does a player with the transition tag garner anything except the right to match the offer?

Tarkus · 03-11-2003, 02:26 AM

Here's FA 101. The amounts aren't correct since this is a little old, but the rest of the information is accurate.

Restricted Free Agent (RFA) - a player who has completed three accrued seasons and now has an expired contract. A RFA receives a "qualifying" offer (a salary level predetermined by the Collective Bargaining Agreement between the league and its players) from his old club. If the restricted free agent accepts an offer sheet from a new club, his old club can match the offer and retain him because it has the "right of first refusal." If the old club does not match the offer, it can possibly receive draft-choice compensation depending on the amount of its qualifying offer.

RFA Tender Amounts for 2001:
Right of First Refusal + Original Draft Pick Compensation: $512,000
Right of First Refusal + 1st Round Draft Pick Compensation: $1,115,000
Right of First Refusal + 1st and 3rd Round Draft Picks in Compensation: $1,488,00

Unrestricted Free Agent (UFA) - a player who has completed four or more accrued seasons and now has an expired contract. This player is free to sign with any team with no compensation owed to his old team.

Exclusive Rights Free Agent (EFA) - a player with less than 3 accrued seasons who is not currently under contract but may not negotiate with any team other than his prior club.
Accrued Season - Six or more regular-season games on a club's active/inactive, reserved-injured or "physically unable to perform" lists.

Transition Player - This player's club must offer a minimum of the average of the top 10 salaries of last season at the player's position or 120 percent of the player's previous year's salary, whichever is greater. A transition player designation gives the club a first-refusal right to match within seven days an offer sheet given to the player by another club after his contract expires. If the club matches, it retains the player. If it does not match, it receives no compensation.

Franchise Player - A club can designate one franchise player in any given year. The salary level offer by a player's old club determines what type of franchise player he is. An "exclusive" franchise player -- not free to sign with another club -- is offered a minimum of the average of the top five salaries at the player's position as of April 14, or 120 percent of the player's previous year's salary, whichever is greater. If the player is offered a minimum of the average of the top five salaries of last season at his position, he becomes a "non-exclusive" franchise player and can negotiate with other clubs. His old club can match a new club's offer, or receive two first-round draft choices if it decides not to match.

Exclusive Rights Franchise Player - player cannot negotiate with any other team and has his one-year salary determined by the average of the top 5 salary cap numbers for players at his position on a date one week before that year's NFL Draft.

Tender Offer Amounts: Position Franchise $ Transition $
QB $7,446,000 $6,280,000
DE $5,699,000 $4,975,000
DT $5,028,000 $4,110,000
LB $5,515,000 $4,573,000
OL $4,920,000 $4,442,000
RB $5,600,000 $4,703,000
CB $4,493,000 $4,077,000
WR $4,303,000 $3,906,000
S $3,342,000 $2,926,000
TE $2,288,000 $2,070,000
K/P $1,241,000 $1,129,000

Can a club decide to withdraw its franchise or transition designations on a player? If so, can it then use them on other players? - A club can withdraw its franchise or transition designations and the player then automatically becomes an unrestricted free agent either immediately or when his contract expires. The club cannot name a new transition player (two allowed in 1993, one in 1994 and one in the final year of the CBA). It can name a new franchise player the next year. A club can, though, designate a transition player in lieu of a franchise player at any time.

Hope that helps.

Tarkus

Bee · 03-11-2003, 06:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kcchief19
I will take any bets from anyone who thinks is a great move.

First, the claim that Coles is an "established" NFL receiver is ridiculous. He's had one very nice year. His first two years in the NFL he couldn't hold on to the ball and couldn't run patterns. He played well last year (contract year), but one year does not a career make.

Second, he's small. He's listed at 5-11 and I doubt he is that. Third, WRs rarely perform well moving to a new system in the NFL in the first year -- so do you think Coles, who couldn't learn the easiest offense in the NFL for two years, is going to pick up Spurrier's sytem on the fly?

Coles is a nice player -- he's just not worth a $13 million signing bonus. It's a reach and a waste of a first-round draft pick.

As far as the cap goes, you can make the numbers work easily. It's a $35 million deal, but the number for year one is $2.3. The catch is that most teams don't have enough money to pay out the bonus. Snyder is probably going to spend upwards of $125-150 million this year on bonuses and payroll. Most teams are not willing to go into deficit spending to pay bonuses, so they are not going to go nuts like The Dan.

To play devil's advocate for a moment...

What other choices would the Redskins have? They have no #1 receiver on the team. Any player they bring in will be facing the exact same problems that Coles will be (coming into a new system, etc) unless you bring in former Gators and we know that doesn't work. There's not going to be a top flight receiver at thier first round pick. They tried to trade up and get Rogers and that fell through. Price was picked up by Atlanta so he's out of the picture. Perhaps Coles has been overpaid, but they seem to have gotten him in under the cap with room enough to spare to continue signing more players (They added Pat Johnson last night). I don't see any realistic moves to improve their receiver corp that would be better than this move. Do you?

Subby · 03-11-2003, 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kcchief19
Coles is a nice player -- he's just not worth a $13 million signing bonus. It's a reach and a waste of a first-round draft pick.

I need an explanation of why Coles is a waste of a first round draft pick. Seems like Coles is better than any WR they were going to get at 1(13). In fact, the deal is pretty similar to what Price got and much of what I have read from guys like Pasquarelli and King point to Coles being better than Price.

Quote:

Originally posted by kcchief19
The catch is that most teams don't have enough money to pay out the bonus. Snyder is probably going to spend upwards of $125-150 million this year on bonuses and payroll. Most teams are not willing to go into deficit spending to pay bonuses, so they are not going to go nuts like The Dan.

Are you sure about those numbers? That seems really, really high to me.

And what teams can't afford to pay out the bonuses? NFL teams get around $70 million a piece just from the national television contract. That covers the salary cap alone. If an NFL team can't afford to pay out bonuses on top of that, then there is serious financial mismanagement going on - particularly when you consider that many bonuses are paid out over two seasons.

Havok · 03-11-2003, 06:53 AM

I'd take Coles over any receiver in this draft. Espcially with our history of drafting WR's. Desmond Howard, Michael Westbrook, etc... We havent drafted a good #1 WR since Art Monk 2 decades ago!!!

Quote:

And what teams can't afford to pay out the bonuses? NFL teams get around $70 million a piece just from the national television contract. That covers the salary cap alone. If an NFL team can't afford to pay out bonuses on top of that, then there is serious financial mismanagement going on - particularly when you consider that many bonuses are paid out over two seasons.

Right on there.

The Redskins make a TON of money every year. We're in no danger of losing money. And even if we were syndur wont give a shit. All he wants to do is win. Thats why i love him

Craptacular · 03-13-2003, 10:46 PM

The Chad Morton situation is apparently unresolved still. The Jets matched the offer sheet, but according to John Clayton, they didn't match a part of the contract that could void the 4th and 5th years. The case will be going to an arbiter. This whole Jets / Redskins / Coles / Morton situation is just getting weirder by the day.

03-09-2003, 11:20 PM	#2
SegRat High School Varsity Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Oshkosh, WI	I want to know how the hell they can afford anyone!!!! Every year they are signing guys to insane amounts of money, but the next year they do it all over again. When they signed D. Sanders, it was a huge contract. Where the hell do they keep finding the money. __________________ USFL: Charlotte Fightn' Squirrels

03-10-2003, 01:01 AM	#4
bigdawg2003 High School Varsity Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Austin, Texas, USA	$13 million dollar bonuses go to ace, #1 sure threat WRs like Owens and Harrison, not someone like Coles. And this contract is bigger than the one Peerless Price got. Who would you rather have? EDIT: If Coles signs the offer sheet and the Jets dont match (which they would be foolish to do), they would receive the 13th pick in the draft. Did the other 30 owners (not including Houston) let snyder in cause they knew he would do stupid crap like this? __________________ I didn't even know Elvis was from Memphis. I thought he was from Tennessee. Last edited by bigdawg2003 : 03-10-2003 at 01:02 AM.

03-10-2003, 01:21 AM	#5
SirFozzie Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: The State of Insanity	Big Dawg.. I'm not sure they know. Here's how stupid they were earlier: Their offer sheet for Chad Morton require a Fifth round pick. Only, you see, the Skins already traded their Fifth round pick (9th in the round) away.. so at that point, the offer sheet was not valid. The pick has to be AS good or better in the fifth round. They go looking about, and see the Patriots fifth round pick is above that, and they call the Patriots, and ask them.. "Can we trade for your fifth round pick?" The Pats already had two picks in that round (Trust me, it's important later), so they swung a deal, the Pats fifth round pick to Washington for a 7th rounder this year and a fourth rounder this year. They swing a deal, and all is well, until the Redskins come back to the league and says "Here we go.. see?" The league takes a look, and says.. nuh uh.. nope.. sorry.. the pick is not as good as your fifth rounder, the offer sheet is still not valid. The Redskins go.. "uh.. what?" Then they re-read the trade. The Patriots had given them their fifth round pick all right, it's just that they had multiple picks in the round, and the one the Redskins wanted was acquired by the Patriots from Dallas. The Patriots had traded THEIR fifth round pick, which isn't as good as the Skins, to Washington. So the Redskins had to go back to the Patriots and swing ANOTHER deal, and this time the Patriots had them over a barrell, after all, if the Skins don't have that pick, the offer sheet goes away.. (and I'm sure they get fined by the league). Washington agreed to swap picks with the Patriots in the THIRD round, (moving the Pats up six picks), PLUS the Skins 4th round pick next year, for the pick that came from Dallas. I guess they also nullified the old trade. Now, the Jets have until Thursday to match the offer sheet, and it looks like they will.. So in effect, the Skins traded down six spots in this year's third round, and gave up their fourth round pick next year.. for the Dallas pick in the fifth round this year. Makes you wince to be a Skins fan don't it? (edit: Changed one of the picks to the proper location, this all came from a story in the Boston Globe today) __________________ Check out Foz's New Video Game Site, An 8-bit Mind in an 8GB world! http://an8bitmind.com Last edited by SirFozzie : 03-10-2003 at 01:22 AM.

03-10-2003, 01:51 AM	#6
Tarkus High School Varsity Join Date: Jun 2001	Here's what the Jets do if they are smart. Now keep in mind I don't mind Bradway not offering Coles $35 mil, that's ridiculous, but his HUGE mistake was not tendering him at $1.8 mil. Because of that the schmuck cost his team a third round pick, which would have been extremely beneficial. With that being said, this is what the Jets will do: 1. They will not match for Morton 2. They will not match for Coles 3. With the 13th pick in the draft the New York Jets select a DT, either Joseph, Williams, or Robertson depending on who's available. 4. With the 22nd pick in the draft the Jets select Kelly Washington. This guy is big, fast, strong, and has soft hands. Also, he's apparently healthy. He's 6'3", 225, and runs somewhere between a 4.3 and 4.4 40. If the Jets can work this they'd be set. Truthfully, I'd be tempted to grab Washington with the 13th pick if he's healthy, and then grab either Boss Bailey or a DT with the 22nd pick. I'm so pissed they won't get a third round pick, they could have packaged it with a first and moved up and gotten Washington and an elite DT for sure. You heard it hear first, this is what the Jets are going to do. Tarkus __________________ Winning may not be everything, but losing isn't anything.

03-10-2003, 05:57 AM	#11
Fritz Lethargic Hooligan Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: hello kitty found my wallet at a big tent revival and returned it with all the cash missing	I think this is a bad deal for Coles. He will get more money, but I am willing to bet his career will be destroyed. In 2 to 3 years he will be a backup somewhere. __________________ donkey, donkey, walk a little faster

03-10-2003, 06:11 AM	#13
AgPete College Prospect Join Date: Jan 2001	I agree, I don't see how playing under Spurrier can be detrimental to any wide receiver's career. __________________ Click here for the FOF2004 World Football League Dynasty (WFL) - Football Goes Global! OOTP5 Psychology Experiment (Incomplete but fun read for MLB fans.) The FOFC All-Time NFL Team - Voted on by FOFC members.

03-10-2003, 07:13 AM	#15
Honolulu_Blue Hockey Boy Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Royal Oak, MI	Coles is a very good receiver. I've had him on a number of fantasy squads. He produces. Washington desperately wants (and needs) to upgrade the wide receiver position. They are committed to Spurrier's offense and need to assemble the necessary parts. They allegedly tried to trade up in the draft in order to get Andre Johnson or Charles Rogers. They can still pursue this course of action if the Jets match their offer for Coles. At this point, I guess, their thinking is that Coles is worth the money and he is better than anyone they can get with the #13 pick in this draft. That could be true. One great receiver, tried and tested in the NFL, is better than taking a gamble. __________________ *Steve Yzerman*: 1,755 points in 1,514 regular season games. 185 points in 196 postseason games. A First-Team All-Star, Conn Smythe Trophy winner, Selke Trophy winner, Masterton Trophy winner, member of the Hockey Hall of Fame, Olympic gold medallist, and a three-time Stanley Cup Champion. Longest serving captain of one team in the history of the NHL (19 seasons).

03-10-2003, 08:14 AM	#18
AgPete College Prospect Join Date: Jan 2001	I actually believe Peerless Price has a better chance of failing than Coles. CTHomer mentioned this too. The high priced receivers that usually seem to fail a lot are the ones that move from teams where they either have good complimentary receivers around them or aren't used to being THE man. Joey Galloway, Keyshawn Johnson, etc. are all guys that never faced the same intense coverage on their former teams and I'm willing to bet Peerless Price will be surprised about the coverage he faces now that Eric Moulds isn't opposite him. Gardner and Coles ain't that bad of a duo but the Skins sure are putting a lot of faith in Ramsey. __________________ Click here for the FOF2004 World Football League Dynasty (WFL) - Football Goes Global! OOTP5 Psychology Experiment (Incomplete but fun read for MLB fans.) The FOFC All-Time NFL Team - Voted on by FOFC members.

03-10-2003, 08:20 AM	#19
Bee Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Fairfax, VA	The biggest cause for concern with Coles playing in DC would be Spurrier's attitude towards players. He not only plays musical chairs with his quarterbacks, he does it with his receivers as well. Unless the coach settles down, Coles may come in as the #1 receiver and by week 3 be the #3 receiver. Also, in Spurrier's offense the receiver has to read the defense the same way as the quarterback to be successful. I don't know how well Coles will be at doing this since the Jets offense is more reliant on the quarterback making adjustments to the receivers. Finally, another concern is the quarterback situation in DC. In NY, Coles has had Testaverde and Pennington throwing him the ball (2 pretty good quarterbacks). In DC, it looks like Ramsey and Rob Johnson (1 unproven QB and 1 bad QB). There are definitely some issues that could hurt Coles in the move, but that's not to say he can't overcome them and have a career best season.

03-10-2003, 08:49 AM	#22
Bee Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Fairfax, VA	Sounds like the Redskins are still pursuing Kevin Dyson as well. Could be an interesting group of receivers in DC next season.

03-10-2003, 09:45 AM	#23
Subby lolzcat Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: sans pants	I actually like this better than the rumored deals of packaging Smoot and #13 to move up and grab Rogers or Johnson. This way they keep Smoot, don't have to face a possible holdout, and have a receiver that is already proven. Redskins fans have been burned repeatedly by highly drafted WRs (Michael Westbrook or Desmond Howard, anyone?) and Coles is no fluke. In fact, he has gotten it done while being subjected to double coverage (unlike Peerless Price who frequently enjoyed single coverage.) I know one thing for sure - Coles will be a hell of a lot more successful in Washington than Derrius Thompson will be in Miami... __________________ Superman was flying around and saw Wonder Woman getting a tan in the nude on her balcony. Superman said I going to hit that real fast. So he flys down toward Wonder Woman to hit it and their is a loud scream. The Invincible Man scream what just hit me in the ass!!!!! I do shit, I take pictures, I write about it: chrisshue.com

03-10-2003, 10:31 AM	#25
Logan Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: NYC	I think this works out well for the Jets if they don't match the offer sheet. I feel like it would be possible to use the Skins 13th overall pick, and maybe their second rounder, to trade up into the top 10 and grab Andre Johnson. They still have their own 1st at 22 to select a DT.

03-10-2003, 11:42 AM	#27
damnMikeBrown College Benchwarmer Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Cincinnati, OH	Would you rather have your moronic GM have you on the brink of salary cap hell year in & year out... OR Would you rather have your moronic GM have your team $12 million to $8 million under the salary cap year in & year out AND not field a competitive squad for over a decade? If you chose the latter, Congratulations! You're a Bengals fan!

03-10-2003, 12:26 PM	#29
Havok College Starter Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Florida	People rag on Syndur all the time but i love the guy. He may be a little crazy sometimes and still a little wet behind the ears but he's the biggest Redskin fan in the D.C. area. He'll do whatever it takes to win and spend any amount of money he has to. Ill admit he screwed up a couple years ago when he signed all those veterans to huge contracts like Deion, but he learned his lesson. Now he's out there signing young talented guys like Trotter last year and now Thomas and Coles this year. He'll win us a few superbowls eventually. There's no doubt in my mind. And since we love signing jets so much this year.... I'd love it if we traded for Pennington!!!! He's an outright stud!! __________________ Maniacal Misfitz - We're better than you and we know it!

03-10-2003, 12:28 PM	#30
Bee Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Fairfax, VA	I like Snyder too. He wants to win and that's more than at least half the other owners in the NFL can say. He's made mistakes, but every move he makes is trying to improve the team. I wish Paul Allen were a little more aggressive like Snyder.

03-10-2003, 12:37 PM	#31
Tarkus High School Varsity Join Date: Jun 2001	Okay, if Coles ends up a Redskin he's off my Madden 2003 team! That'll teach him! On a serious note, I don't think the Jets should trade up. They should pick Kelly Washington at #13 (he should be there), a DT or OLB at 22, and a safety in the second round. Kelly Washington could be the best receiver in the draft, better than Rogers or Johnson. He was injured last year and there some character questions, but if he's healthy he's definitely a talent. I say grab this guy! Tarkus __________________ Winning may not be everything, but losing isn't anything.

03-10-2003, 05:06 PM	#32
RonnieDobbs High School JV Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Boston, MA	I love this move and I love this offseason. Coles is a burner and an established threat. He was great last season. He is exactly the type of receiver we want. Would we get a better receiver at the 13th pick? Rogers and Johnson and gone, so I say no. Sure, it's a lot of money, but I think he'll produce. I'd have to agree that I'd rather have Coles than Price at the same money. Our offense NEEDS effective receivers, and we got one. __________________ ----------------------------------------- Lookin' forward to great seasons from my 'Skins, Cubbies, and Red Sox (please humor me) Proud Manager of the BOSTON WYCKYD SCEPTRE Also attempting to Right The Ship with the Clippers

03-10-2003, 05:38 PM	#33
jetpunk2000 Waterboy Forever Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Oceanside NY	I'm still trying to figure out where all this cap room is coming from. That being said, I think the Jets are in a very tough spot here. My heart says let him go, he's not worth that much against the cap, but my brain says who the hell is out there to take his place?

03-10-2003, 06:08 PM	#35
jetpunk2000 Waterboy Forever Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Oceanside NY	Well, apparently Bradway is looking at UFA's and "street" people to "band-aid" the position. He's also intrigued by the 13th pick. So it looks like they won't match for Coles. He sounded like he was going to match Morton though. Good move there anyway.

03-10-2003, 06:28 PM	#36
Bee Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Fairfax, VA	Most of the cap room came from releasing Stephen Davis. The Redskins have already taken the cap hits from Deion and those guys who they overpaid for a couple years ago. Most of the guys they've been signing have been signed for relatively cheap contracts. The only big dollar guy was the guard and now Coles. You have to be impressed with how fast the Redskins struck in free agency. Half the teams are still trying to evaluate the players available and the Redskins have basically finished their shopping. There was an interesting article by Len Pasquelli on espn.com about the Dan and how he went into this free agency period better prepared than just about anyone else.

03-10-2003, 07:04 PM	#41
Iceberg H.S. Freshman Team Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Kensington, MD	they are overpaying for coles but assuming they get him they have given this offense an incredible makeover. The guard problems that plagued them last year will be solved and they now have backs suited for the fun and gun. The last piece of the puzzle seemed to be the burner that they are getting in coles. Gardner was no #1 reciever, coles is. I think as long as ballcoach commits to Ramsey he will have a breakout season. Last year dropped passes and poor protection made it impossible for the kid to do anything but mark my word he will be good.

03-10-2003, 07:10 PM	#42
kcchief19 Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Kansas City, MO	I will take any bets from anyone who thinks is a great move. First, the claim that Coles is an "established" NFL receiver is ridiculous. He's had one very nice year. His first two years in the NFL he couldn't hold on to the ball and couldn't run patterns. He played well last year (contract year), but one year does not a career make. Second, he's small. He's listed at 5-11 and I doubt he is that. Third, WRs rarely perform well moving to a new system in the NFL in the first year -- so do you think Coles, who couldn't learn the easiest offense in the NFL for two years, is going to pick up Spurrier's sytem on the fly? Coles is a nice player -- he's just not worth a $13 million signing bonus. It's a reach and a waste of a first-round draft pick. As far as the cap goes, you can make the numbers work easily. It's a $35 million deal, but the number for year one is $2.3. The catch is that most teams don't have enough money to pay out the bonus. Snyder is probably going to spend upwards of $125-150 million this year on bonuses and payroll. Most teams are not willing to go into deficit spending to pay bonuses, so they are not going to go nuts like The Dan.

03-11-2003, 01:38 AM	#45
damnMikeBrown College Benchwarmer Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Cincinnati, OH	Ok, cthomer, you have the knowledge it seems. In a related vein, a Franchised player takes 2 first rounders if not matched? Does a player with the transition tag garner anything except the right to match the offer?

03-11-2003, 02:26 AM	#46
Tarkus High School Varsity Join Date: Jun 2001	Here's FA 101. The amounts aren't correct since this is a little old, but the rest of the information is accurate. Restricted Free Agent (RFA) - a player who has completed three accrued seasons and now has an expired contract. A RFA receives a "qualifying" offer (a salary level predetermined by the Collective Bargaining Agreement between the league and its players) from his old club. If the restricted free agent accepts an offer sheet from a new club, his old club can match the offer and retain him because it has the "right of first refusal." If the old club does not match the offer, it can possibly receive draft-choice compensation depending on the amount of its qualifying offer. RFA Tender Amounts for 2001: Right of First Refusal + Original Draft Pick Compensation: $512,000 Right of First Refusal + 1st Round Draft Pick Compensation: $1,115,000 Right of First Refusal + 1st and 3rd Round Draft Picks in Compensation: $1,488,00 Unrestricted Free Agent (UFA) - a player who has completed four or more accrued seasons and now has an expired contract. This player is free to sign with any team with no compensation owed to his old team. Exclusive Rights Free Agent (EFA) - a player with less than 3 accrued seasons who is not currently under contract but may not negotiate with any team other than his prior club. Accrued Season - Six or more regular-season games on a club's active/inactive, reserved-injured or "physically unable to perform" lists. Transition Player - This player's club must offer a minimum of the average of the top 10 salaries of last season at the player's position or 120 percent of the player's previous year's salary, whichever is greater. A transition player designation gives the club a first-refusal right to match within seven days an offer sheet given to the player by another club after his contract expires. If the club matches, it retains the player. If it does not match, it receives no compensation. Franchise Player - A club can designate one franchise player in any given year. The salary level offer by a player's old club determines what type of franchise player he is. An "exclusive" franchise player -- not free to sign with another club -- is offered a minimum of the average of the top five salaries at the player's position as of April 14, or 120 percent of the player's previous year's salary, whichever is greater. If the player is offered a minimum of the average of the top five salaries of last season at his position, he becomes a "non-exclusive" franchise player and can negotiate with other clubs. His old club can match a new club's offer, or receive two first-round draft choices if it decides not to match. Exclusive Rights Franchise Player - player cannot negotiate with any other team and has his one-year salary determined by the average of the top 5 salary cap numbers for players at his position on a date one week before that year's NFL Draft. Tender Offer Amounts: Position Franchise $ Transition $ QB $7,446,000 $6,280,000 DE $5,699,000 $4,975,000 DT $5,028,000 $4,110,000 LB $5,515,000 $4,573,000 OL $4,920,000 $4,442,000 RB $5,600,000 $4,703,000 CB $4,493,000 $4,077,000 WR $4,303,000 $3,906,000 S $3,342,000 $2,926,000 TE $2,288,000 $2,070,000 K/P $1,241,000 $1,129,000 Can a club decide to withdraw its franchise or transition designations on a player? If so, can it then use them on other players? - A club can withdraw its franchise or transition designations and the player then automatically becomes an unrestricted free agent either immediately or when his contract expires. The club cannot name a new transition player (two allowed in 1993, one in 1994 and one in the final year of the CBA). It can name a new franchise player the next year. A club can, though, designate a transition player in lieu of a franchise player at any time. Hope that helps. Tarkus __________________ Winning may not be everything, but losing isn't anything.

03-13-2003, 10:46 PM	#50
Craptacular College Starter Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: The Mad City, WI	The Chad Morton situation is apparently unresolved still. The Jets matched the offer sheet, but according to John Clayton, they didn't match a part of the contract that could void the 4th and 5th years. The case will be going to an arbiter. This whole Jets / Redskins / Coles / Morton situation is just getting weirder by the day.

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