Tennesseee Titans - Bring the NFL the spread offense!

[QuikSand]

So, Norm Chow is out as OC for the Titans.

Vince Young is mobile and tough and knows a bit about the spread offense.

The team has a lot going for it on defense, clearly.


Isn't this the perfect test case to have one of these college wizards (or hell, just someone who has watched a bit of film) to bring to the NFL a full-on version of the spread offense that seems to leave one in three college teams completely baffled? (Yes, I'm looking at you , Big Ten, but it's clearly not just you) I don't know if you want the run-first version or a short-pass version of some hybrid, but it just seems like even against true NFL speed, this is worth a try.

Anybody else think this could be a perfect situation to see how it might work?

[st.cronin]

The Patriots already run the spread offense, and it works pretty well. Their offense is actually very similar to the one the Longhorns run.

[Pumpy Tudors]

I don't really know much about college offenses, but does the spread offense require good receivers to make it work? Maybe it doesn't. I really don't know. When Justin Gage and Roydell Williams (a guy I'm very familiar with) are the best you've got, I would hope that your offense doesn't have to rely very much on them.

[QuikSand]

I'm aware that the Patriots operate something this year that looks a lot like the spread on many occasions... but clearly they are a team committed to nothing in particular, and don't mind basically lining up with 3 TE next week if that's what they think works best for their matchups.

In any event... I would be interested to see a wide-open version of the spread... not just running with 3 or 4 WRs on most plays, but using the QB as a major part of the rushing game, using a variety of finesse running plays and reverses in place of a good deal of your standard handoff-to-halfback stuff, and all manner of controlled passing to replace the ball-control running game from a standard offense. maybe even more elaborate than the Longhorns offense, I guess. NE does some of this stuff, but I'd like to see a team with more mortal skill players put something together as an honest effort to see if it would work in the NFL.

[MacroGuru]

The Qb as a major part of the rushing game aka as Urbans spread...to me = short life expectancy in the NFL for any QB...they just cannot take the amount of shots and abuse at that level for to long.

The offense is designed to get the QB moving off tackle or off the tight end...no true end arounds for them, or the draw straight up the gut.

Now do not say Vick did this, because he didn't, he scrambled when he had no one to through it to, it's a bit different than a controlled play, with the blocking set up, and if that fails..your mush.

[HerRealName]

I was just saying the same thing to a buddy earlier today. They should pick up Dennis Dixon this year and Tebow or Pat White next year, commit to it, and see what happens. They couldn't do any worse offensively than they did last year.

[Galaxy]

Interesting thinking. My concern would be the quarterback getting too beat up against NFL defenses (and 16-game regular seasons) as well as finding the right kind of back.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by HerRealName

I was just saying the same thing to a buddy earlier today. They should pick up Dennis Dixon this year and Tebow or Pat White next year, commit to it, and see what happens. They couldn't do any worse offensively than they did last year.

Why would the Titans need a quarterback? I think QS's point is that they have the quarterback to do it.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

Why would the Titans need a quarterback? I think QS's point is that they have the quarterback to do it.

Because you would expect a QB to get beat up running this offense in the NFL. With 2 or 3 on the roster who could potentially run it, it would be interesting to see.

[cartman]

The Titans receiving corps was absolutely awful this season. They showed most of the games in Austin, and there were so many dropped passes, I thought they had a field full of T.O.s out there. Sure there were many times when VY was off target on throws, but there were many more times when he (or Collins) hit them in the hands and they flat out dropped it. The only consistent receiver they had was Bo Scaife, and you know your receivers are bad when defenses leave them single covered most of the game and double up your TE.

[Passacaglia]

I've watched a bit of film.





(sometimes when I can't watch a game on the weekend, I tape it and watch it later the next week)

[HerRealName]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

Why would the Titans need a quarterback? I think QS's point is that they have the quarterback to do it.

Back-up. It gets back to Macro's point about QBs getting injured in that system as we saw with Tebow, White, and Dixon this year. I don't even think they'd need to use high draft picks to get these guys either.

[QuikSand]

There's a fair amount of (possibly revisionist) history about how the so-called west coast offense evolved from Bill Walsh's desire to come up with a system that covered up the weaknesses of some less-skilled QBs. Maybe that's true, and it just turned out to be expandable enough to turn weak QBs into good ones, and good ones into great ones. Maybe we will never know how good Joe Montana was, really.

Anyhow... I wonder if the spread is basically the next version of the same sort of thing. Maybe you could install an offense like this and as long as you have a few guys who are familiar with it and how to run it, your QB could become basically an expendable part of the offense. Oh, Tebow got hurt? Send out Pat White. White got hurt? Send out the kid we just drafted from Appalachian State this year. Whatever. If the QB knows where his guys are going to be, pretty much anyone can throw the 4-yard slant pass, and the WR screen, and most of the stuff that they are called upon to do in the hardcore version of this offense. It might be good theater, even if not particularly good football.

If that's the case, maybe Tennessee and their prized QB isn't the best test case, after all. Maybe a team like Baltimore or Atlanta with a near-void at the position is a better launching pad. Draft or sign a handful of athletic short-pass type guys, let them compete for the job, but be prepared to go through them if need be, if that's the practical cost of running this offense.

[st.cronin]

I don't buy that qbs would necessarily get hurt more in that kind of offense. You just don't see NFL qbs take a lot of hits when they scramble - in college, yes, qbs take a beating, but not in the NFL.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

Because you would expect a QB to get beat up running this offense in the NFL. With 2 or 3 on the roster who could potentially run it, it would be interesting to see.

Thanks. I was confused that he meant as a starter.

[cartman]

Thinking about this more, one draw back I can see with the spread at the pro level is the speed of defenses. A lot of the O-Line blocking in the spread is zone blocking. And since the hashmarks are closer to the middle of the field, there is a lot more room that the O-line has to cover.

Whenever college teams running the spread had problems, it more often than not was because the front seven of the defense got into the backfield quickly and disrupted plays.

Regardless, if an OC could figure out how to get it to work in the NFL, it could be an interesting change of pace.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by cartman

Thinking about this more, one draw back I can see with the spread at the pro level is the speed of defenses. A lot of the O-Line blocking in the spread is zone blocking. And since the hashmarks are closer to the middle of the field, there is a lot more room that the O-line has to cover.

Whenever college teams running the spread had problems, it more often than not was because the front seven of the defense got into the backfield quickly and disrupted plays.

Regardless, if an OC could figure out how to get it to work in the NFL, it could be an interesting change of pace.

I would love to see the NFL adopt the college hashmarks.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Anyhow... I wonder if the spread is basically the next version of the same sort of thing. Maybe you could install an offense like this and as long as you have a few guys who are familiar with it and how to run it, your QB could become basically an expendable part of the offense. Oh, Tebow got hurt? Send out Pat White. White got hurt? Send out the kid we just drafted from Appalachian State this year. Whatever. If the QB knows where his guys are going to be, pretty much anyone can throw the 4-yard slant pass, and the WR screen, and most of the stuff that they are called upon to do in the hardcore version of this offense. It might be good theater, even if not particularly good football.

If that's the case, maybe Tennessee and their prized QB isn't the best test case, after all. Maybe a team like Baltimore or Atlanta with a near-void at the position is a better launching pad. Draft or sign a handful of athletic short-pass type guys, let them compete for the job, but be prepared to go through them if need be, if that's the practical cost of running this offense.

That's the problem w/using Tennessee - they've got a huge portion of their salary cap and marketing tied up in Vince Young. But there are 1-2 of these guys that fall to the 2nd day/go undrafted every year. I think you could even run a version of the single wing where you line up 2-3 of Dennis Dixon, Josh Cribbs, Armanti Edwards Tommie Frazier etc. in the backfield and use misdirection to make it more effective. Then pay the big offensive money to a Randy Moss/Plaxico type WR who can't be single covered on the outside. But no one is going to make that kind of commitment and risk their coaching job on it.

I think Al Saunders (Chiefs OC) has said he could run the option effectively in the NFL, he'd just need 16 QB's each season.

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

I think Al Saunders (Chiefs OC) has said he could run the option effectively in the NFL, he'd just need 16 QB's each season.

Back in the 70's and 80's there was some sentiment that an NFL team should try and run the triple option attack that was so successful with college QB's like Turner Gill, J. C. Watts, Tommie Frasier, etc. The prevailing opinion was that the quarterback would get killed trying to run that type of offense in the NFL.

The modern spread offense with the zone read might be more viable, but the quarterback would still take an enormous pounding.

[MacroGuru]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

I don't buy that qbs would necessarily get hurt more in that kind of offense. You just don't see NFL qbs take a lot of hits when they scramble - in college, yes, qbs take a beating, but not in the NFL.

Ah but this is where the difference is with the Spread Offense...they are not necessarily scrambling, it is a designed run, with designed zone blocking...thus taking hits needlessly from LB's that were the size of their DL in College.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by MacroGuru

Ah but this is where the difference is with the Spread Offense...they are not necessarily scrambling, it is a designed run, with designed zone blocking...thus taking hits needlessly from LB's that were the size of their DL in College.

There are designed qb runs in the nfl. You still almost never see a qb take a big hit when he's carrying the ball. Virtually every big hit an nfl qb takes is when he drops back to pass.

[MacroGuru]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

There are designed qb runs in the nfl. You still almost never see a qb take a big hit when he's carrying the ball. Virtually every big hit an nfl qb takes is when he drops back to pass.

You are right, because they either slide, or get out of bounds. With the speed and size of an NFL defense, a Spread Offense Run by a QB, he isn't making it out of bounds, and the running, juking and fighting for every inch that they have done in college, would be more damaging in the NFL.

Trust me, I love the Spread, I enjoyed watching Alex Smith run it to perfection here in Utah (Even though I hate the U when they play BYU) and Tebow run it...I just do not think they can take the beatings in the NFL. I look at a lot of the ones playing in college this season....and most of them missed games.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by MacroGuru

You are right, because they either slide, or get out of bounds. With the speed and size of an NFL defense, a Spread Offense Run by a QB, he isn't making it out of bounds, and the running, juking and fighting for every inch that they have done in college, would be more damaging in the NFL.

Trust me, I love the Spread, I enjoyed watching Alex Smith run it to perfection here in Utah (Even though I hate the U when they play BYU) and Tebow run it...I just do not think they can take the beatings in the NFL. I look at a lot of the ones playing in college this season....and most of them missed games.

This just sounds to me like one of those things that everybody believes despite zero evidence. Maybe its true, but the standard explanation doesn't sound right to me.

[IMetTrentGreen]

Their offense is actually very similar to the one the Longhorns run.

Said someone who has apparently never seen either team play.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by IMetTrentGreen

Said someone who has apparently never seen either team play.

To be fair, maybe the Pats just have a better play caller than Greg Davis.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by IMetTrentGreen

Said someone who has apparently never seen either team play.

Ok, which college offense more closely resembles what the Pats do? None that I can think of. Or, which pro offense more closely resembles what the Longhorns do? Surely not the Titans.

[bhlloy]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

This just sounds to me like one of those things that everybody believes despite zero evidence. Maybe its true, but the standard explanation doesn't sound right to me.

Think of it this way. If the QB is your PRIMARY running option, he's no longer going to be able to go out of bounds for losses or slide after a gain of 2-3 yards on a regular basis. He's going to have to fight for every single yard and have a YPC of around 4.5 for the offense to really be successful. Add that to how much faster the NFL defenses are, and I think the QB would be absorbing a ridiculous amount of hits. There is a big difference between running a QB draw once a game and scrambling a few times and having the QB being the primary runner.

[Huckleberry]

Why is everybody acting like every spread offense is the Urban Meyer spread offense?

The QB doesn't have to be the primary runner at all. Meyer is the only spread architect that actively disdains running backs.

An NFL spread would call for the QB to run the ball 10 times per game at the absolute maximum. He wouldn't be running it 20 times every week.

It's not a bad idea. The whole "defenses are too fast" thing is not as big a deal as it is for the option because the spread attacks the edges with passes in addition to runs. I don't care how fast an OLB is, he's not going to outrun the ball to the sideline.

It would be an interesting test run. But people would poo-poo the idea unless it was crazy successful. I-formation boring old-school offense averages 20 points per game? Good solid NFL offense. New-school spread scheme averages 20 points per game? Failure.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

Think of it this way. If the QB is your PRIMARY running option, he's no longer going to be able to go out of bounds for losses or slide after a gain of 2-3 yards on a regular basis. He's going to have to fight for every single yard and have a YPC of around 4.5 for the offense to really be successful. Add that to how much faster the NFL defenses are, and I think the QB would be absorbing a ridiculous amount of hits. There is a big difference between running a QB draw once a game and scrambling a few times and having the QB being the primary runner.

Ah, I agree if the qb is the primary running option, there might be problems. But even in college spread offenses, the qb is almost never the primary running option. If that's whats being suggested, I agree, that would take a very special qb, or a 2-qb system.

[sabotai]

They should just teach a running back to throw the ball. That would solve this problem.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by sabotai

They should just teach a running back to throw the ball. That would solve this problem.

Paging Darren McFadden.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by sabotai

They should just teach a running back to throw the ball. That would solve this problem.

I hear there is one of them that should be getting out of jail in about a year.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

If that's the case, maybe Tennessee and their prized QB isn't the best test case, after all. Maybe a team like Baltimore or Atlanta with a near-void at the position is a better launching pad. Draft or sign a handful of athletic short-pass type guys, let them compete for the job, but be prepared to go through them if need be, if that's the practical cost of running this offense.

Baltimore already has Troy Smith....that's a start at least.

[stevew]

tri-dola

It'd be interesting to see if we could run an effective spread in FOF. Although right off the top of my head, I think it'd be hard to get younger QB's that can even run the 4 and 5 WR sets....let alone to get 3-4 of them.

[clintl]

The NFL has already tried the spread offense (back when it was still known as the Run and Shoot). It didn't exactly win a bunch of championships.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by Huckleberry

Why is everybody acting like every spread offense is the Urban Meyer spread offense?

The QB doesn't have to be the primary runner at all. Meyer is the only spread architect that actively disdains running backs.

An NFL spread would call for the QB to run the ball 10 times per game at the absolute maximum. He wouldn't be running it 20 times every week.

It's not a bad idea. The whole "defenses are too fast" thing is not as big a deal as it is for the option because the spread attacks the edges with passes in addition to runs. I don't care how fast an OLB is, he's not going to outrun the ball to the sideline.

It would be an interesting test run. But people would poo-poo the idea unless it was crazy successful. I-formation boring old-school offense averages 20 points per game? Good solid NFL offense. New-school spread scheme averages 20 points per game? Failure.

This is pretty close to my thoughts on the issue as well. If you want to see the spread offense in NFL form, check out this box score from GB and Baltimore in 2001:

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter?game_i...2001&week=REG5

Basically, GB was faced to go against an extremely fast front 7 with good starting corners. I remember the GB coaches saying after the game that their only chance was to lineup 4 and 5 WRs from the shotgun and pick on the nickel and dime corners of Baltimore (it also removed some talented LBs). If you look at the gamelog, Favre ran 40-45 of their 60ish plays from the Shotgun with atleast 3 WRs (and often 4 and 5 sets). He finished the game 27/34 for 337 yards, 3 TDs and 0 INT. They split out Martin and Franks and the WR spot accounted for 20 of the 27 catches. It was quite remarkable and Favre didn't scramble once. IMO, that's the way a spread could work in today's NFL. Unfortunately, in normal Mike Sherman fashion, the Pack never ran that gameplan again for the rest of the season.

I think having a mobile QB would be a plus for the above spread as it would keep atleast one LB/S occupied as a spy and free up more room for the receivers. But, it's not a necessity. The main concept is to spread the field, have one quick read at all times and focus on the one matchup that's to your advantage (WR1-DB1... WR4-DB/LB4). If the opponent plays zone, work the sidelines. If they go man, stick to the middle. I'd like to see how it would work with a mobile QB, but they have to be very accurate with the 10-20 yard pass. I don't know if that QB is Young, I'd be more inclined to try it with a better passer (but still mobile guy) like Romo, Garrard or Derek Anderson.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by clintl

The NFL has already tried the spread offense (back when it was still known as the Run and Shoot). It didn't exactly win a bunch of championships.

There are some pretty big differences between the spread offense and the run and shoot. The run and shoot is a drop back, pass first type of offense, where the running game is an afterthought. There is almost never a tight end in a run and shoot formation either. The spread is usually run out of the shotgun, and the plays are balanced between run and pass. Hawaii this past season ran the run and shoot, which is very different from the offense that West Virginia put on the field.

[Galaril]

Well, I for one am glad the Titans kicked Chow and his unproductive Offense to the curb. It looks like they are going to bring Heimerdinger back who was the OC when McNair was there good move.
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/new...ffensive-aide/

[sooner333]

I think that a zone-read type offense would fail. I'd love to see it tried, but think about it. The fast defenses in college (like you would see in the NFL) are usually stopping the zone reads. Granted, USC didn't against Texas and Oklahoma didn't against WVU, but many of the successful runs in that game were the scrambles out of the pocket where linebackers were already into coverage and lots of space was open. Pat White had tons of yards on the ground, but many were out of scrambles...lots of the zone read plays were blown up in the backfield.

Also, with the quarterback and runningback both standing still for the fake, you will also leave open your running back to some monster hits in the backfield.

A Tim Tebow, single wing offense might work better, but even more liklihood of injury. Essentially it would be like three yards and cloud of dust with your QB with an occassional jump pass.

[k0ruptr]

the pats run the shoot and run, different from the run and shoot.

[nilodor]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

So, Norm Chow is out as OC for the Titans.

Vince Young is mobile and tough and knows a bit about the spread offense.

The team has a lot going for it on defense, clearly.


Isn't this the perfect test case to have one of these college wizards (or hell, just someone who has watched a bit of film) to bring to the NFL a full-on version of the spread offense that seems to leave one in three college teams completely baffled? (Yes, I'm looking at you , Big Ten, but it's clearly not just you) I don't know if you want the run-first version or a short-pass version of some hybrid, but it just seems like even against true NFL speed, this is worth a try.

Anybody else think this could be a perfect situation to see how it might work?

A friend of mine and I had this same discussion a couple of months ago after Oregon and Ap state beat up on Michigan running the spread. We went through the teams and Tennessee seemed to make the most sense, they would need new receivers and backs but they had the best QB for it this side of Vick. Basically we were thinking you look at Desean Jackson early, Dexter Jackson out of Ap state later, then some back with good hands and voila you've transformed your personel to be right for the spread. If you're worried about Young's health, Dennis Dixon will probably be around in the late stages of the draft and there should be pleanty of other QB's available in free agency. The main draw to running this offense is a lot of those players aren't in high demand and can be found on the scrap heap. There are some versions of the spread in the NFL but not like what you see in college, the NFL version reminds me more of Texas Tech's offense, where you just spread them out and throw quick hitters out of the gun, though with less screens. Maybe Missouri would be a good blueprint for Tennessee to try out, enough running to keep defenses honest, but not enough to raise Vince's life insurance premiums?

[nilodor]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

Back in the 70's and 80's there was some sentiment that an NFL team should try and run the triple option attack that was so successful with college QB's like Turner Gill, J. C. Watts, Tommie Frasier, etc. The prevailing opinion was that the quarterback would get killed trying to run that type of offense in the NFL.

The modern spread offense with the zone read might be more viable, but the quarterback would still take an enormous pounding.

How much more of a pounding would a QB take than a typical carry the mail running back? Is it just the type of hits (giving yourself up on the option) that causes concern? Because you can run this offense without the option pitches and use the safer zone reads. Or is it more along the lines of it would be hard to still throw the ball well if you're the secondary runner? I don't think there would be much debate over if this would shorten your career or not, but I think a QB could stand up for 5 or 6 years like a good RB can.

OK reading this over it sounds pretty critical, that's not how it's intended, I'm genuinely interested in hearing more explanation on the QB getting killed side of things because it seems to be a common thought, I'm just not sure I entirely believe it.

[BishopMVP]

A lot of the increased injury risk vs. RB's would be the big hits from leaving yourself open after option pitches. You also identified a second problem - RB's can have an injured shoulder, ribs or forearm and still run the ball, but it's a lot harder to go through the throwing motion with accuracy. The third problem is that a lot of these QB's are lighter than RB's - Armanti Edwards for example weighs about 175.

I can't find it right now, but there was another variant of the spread that uses only 3 down linemen, then has the outside guys shifting up or back to change who's eligible based on matchups. I doubt it would work in the NFL, but I've always wanted to see it run in small college or HS ball.

[rkmsuf]

If you have no ability at all to throw the ball, run whatever offense you want and it will fail miserably in the NFL.

Maybe you can get away with shitty offense in the ham and egg college game. Not in big boy football.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

If you have no ability at all to throw the ball, run whatever offense you want and it will fail miserably in the NFL.

Maybe you can get away with shitty offense in the ham and egg college game. Not in big boy football.

I agree any of these exotic offenses would have limited success. I hope the Titans never think to do this there O sucks bad enough after Chow fucked it up. Most likly heimerdinger if he truly is going to be the new OC will bring on the vertical passing game. That will take Young to improve his downfield pass mechanics and the Titans will need a true #1 reciever and a good pass catching TE not a H-back(Scaife). The rest f there recievers will be better if they have a #1 like Desean Jackson or Moss for example.

[rkmsuf]

I think Chow had very little to work with and was forced to really reign in the offense. As it was Young threw 17 ints in very few attempts.

[Huckleberry]

Originally Posted by Galaril

That will take Young to improve his downfield pass mechanics and the Titans will need a true #1 reciever and a good pass catching TE not a H-back(Scaife). The rest f there recievers will be better if they have a #1 like Desean Jackson or Moss for example.

Actually, downfield passing is what Young is best at. He struggles with the medium-distance passes and hates throwing it short. Has a lot of work to do, obviously, throwing the ball but he absolutely needs a deep threat to work with. With Justin Gage as your primary deep target the field is simply too short.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

I think Chow had very little to work with and was forced to really reign in the offense. As it was Young threw 17 ints in very few attempts.

I will be the last one to be called a huge Young fan or apologist but I think Young is much less to blame than Chow. Young threw 17 Ints but he also improved alot(compl% 11% & 23 yds/g avg.increases)
Stats:
Year Team G QBRat Comp Att Pct Yds Y/G Y/A TD Int Rush Yds Y/G Avg
2006 Tennessee15 66.7 184 357 51.5 2199 146.6 6.2 12 13 83 552 36.8
2007 Tennessee15 71.1 238 382 62.3 2546 169.7 6.7 9 17 93 395 26.3 4

The general feeling with most Titans fans is that Chow was of course hinder by the personnel he had. But, he has been there 3 years and he was the the one putting that Offensive personnel on the field as OC. He wanted Leinart and made no it no secret that he wanted Tennessee to draft him. When he didn't get him he basically tried to turn Young into him by restricting a lot of his dynamic on the fly play making by keeping him in the pocket and not rolling out. The WRs or lack there of was much more a hindrance for Young than Chow.

[Noop]

Spread Offense - NE, Hawaii, Old Florida State
Spread Option - Florida, WVU
Shotgun Read - Texas when Vince was there.

[astrosfan64]

Vince Young is terrible, unless you put in a spread option or shotgun read, I don't think this guy is going to make it in the NFL.

He can't read a defense. He isn't that accurate. The Titans offense was actually better this year, when Kerry played.