Study On Mentors (Active vs. Inactive)

[Ben E Lou]

There has been a bit of confusion over whether or not mentors need to be active in FOF2K7 to have an impact on player development, and I thought I'd do a study designed to determine the answer.

METHOD
1. To minimize masking, I started a new career on Main Street (reduced scouting error for sure there) and with a minimal X-factor (not sure if that helps or not, but it can't hurt).
2. Preference drafted a team emphasizing young talent.
3. Simmed forward to begin regular season.
4. Signed mentors for several positions.
5. Set injuries to 0.
6. Set depth charts so that rookies studied played as many snaps as possible.
7. Simmed 10 seasons with mentors active, 10 with mentors inactive, 5 with no mentors. Everything else on team (game plans, depth charts) kept static during trials.

RESULTS
I've got more detailed results, but here's a summary of the eight players I studied, with 10 season-long trials.

				Avg Current Rating After 16 Games (10 Trials)				Improvement In Development From Mentoring
Player	Cur	Fut		No Mentor	Mentor Inactive	Mentor Active		Mentor vs. No Mentor	Mentor Active vs. Mentor Inactive
QB Blackburn	24	62		30.2	34.1	34.7		62.9%	5.9%
RB Chism	37	59		41.6	44	44.7		52.2%	10.0%
WR Garrison	50	83		67.6	77.5	79.1		56.3%	5.8%
WR Loera	28	55		34.8	40.3	41.2		80.9%	7.3%
OT Wickes	34	63		40.4	46	44.9		87.5%	-9.2%
OT Collier	40	75		47.6	54.3	55.4		88.2%	7.7%
DT Rodgers	24	49		30.6	34	36.8		51.5%	28.0%
DT Barber	44	69		54.4	58.8	57.3		42.3%	-10.1%
AVERAGE	35.1	64.4		43.4	48.6	49.3		63.1%	4.7%

A couple of observations not related to conclusion.

• There's a random factor to player development. Within the same set of trials, QB Blackburn, for example, had seasons where he improved as few as 6 points current, and as many as 18.
• While not studied carefully, it appears that team and individual performance play minimal/no role in how much the player develops.

CONCLUSION: IN FOF2K7, THERE IS LIKELY NO DIFFERENCE IN HAVING A MENTOR ACTIVE AS OPPOSED TO INACTIVE.

The small change observed is statistically insignificant, and given the fact that two of the players developed a little less with the mentor active, I'd strongly suspect that the +4.7% difference (which works out to less than 1 point of current rating per player over 16 games) was just due to the "wobbling" of the system.

[cwadley]

Great work. Thanks.

[Green Caesar]

Yes. Great work. Thanks for answering this quesion, SD.

[ddrrbb]

I wish mentors weren't so important. This basically means you need one for every young, undeveloped player. It would be cool if coaches with good positional and young talent ratings did this job at their best positions, and mentors could help in positions where the coaches aren't as strong.

[QuikSand]

Thanks for investing the time to doing this. I don't think there's any other way to know what's what on this sort of thing than to have someone exert the brute force to tease it out over many controlled trials.

What is really disappointing about this is that this is pretty clearly a *change* between FOF 2004 and FOF 2007, and I'm fairly confident that there was zero said about it anywhere in the game documentation, any of the various Q&A sessions, or anywhere else. I'm glad we know how it works now, but it would have been nice to at least have gotten a hint toward this at some point.

I think I recently answered someone's question here on this subject incorrectly - but did so in good faith, and with a caveat that I just assumed things still worked like they were revealed to have worked in FOF 2004. I will endeavor to make a change if I can relocate the thread.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Thanks for investing the time to doing this. I don't think there's any other way to know what's what on this sort of thing than to have someone exert the brute force to tease it out over many controlled trials.

What is really disappointing about this is that this is pretty clearly a *change* between FOF 2004 and FOF 2007, and I'm fairly confident that there was zero said about it anywhere in the game documentation, any of the various Q&A sessions, or anywhere else. I'm glad we know how it works now, but it would have been nice to at least have gotten a hint toward this at some point.

I think I recently answered someone's question here on this subject incorrectly - but did so in good faith, and with a caveat that I just assumed things still worked like they were revealed to have worked in FOF 2004. I will endeavor to make a change if I can relocate the thread.

I'm not sure what the "correct" answer is here. The fact that inactive mentors had no impact on development in FOF2K4 was not in the documentation, either. That's something the community figured out. (cthomer, maybe?) Technically, I suppose it's not to be expected that Solecismic Software would document a change to a previously-undocumented aspect of the game.

I suppose there are people out there besides the game's creator who think this change should have remained hidden information, but I'm not sure who they are. It makes sense to leave some things mysterious, but when it's changing a known game mechanic from a system that made little/no sense from a real-world perspective to one that makes a lot more, it probably should be documented, so that we have a clue about it without extensive testing.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

It makes sense to leave some things mysterious, but when it's changing a known game mechanic from a system that made little/no sense from a real-world perspective to one that makes a lot more, it probably should be documented, so that we have a clue about it without extensive testing.

That is well put.

[Icy]

Great job, i wonder now too if the player gets also benefit from the mentor if he is inactive. He should i guess as the mentorship should occur not during games but during the weekly training, teams trips etc.

[PiemasterUK]

I agree that it would be good if coaches could also be mentors. Would add another dimension to the staff hiring aspect of the game.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Originally Posted by ddrrbb

I wish mentors weren't so important. This basically means you need one for every young, undeveloped player. It would be cool if coaches with good positional and young talent ratings did this job at their best positions, and mentors could help in positions where the coaches aren't as strong.

This is already occurring in the game to an extent. Coordinators are rated for their ability to develop players at certain positions and young talent. You will maximize development with excellent coordinators.

I am assuming the coordinator variable was held constant in SD's tests. However, if the coordinators were not good, then that would explain a little bit better why not having a mentor at all made a big difference. It is possible that by having good coordinators (at the positions you need them) you lessen the negative effect of not having a mentor. If the coordinators had no effect as seem to think, then they would be completely irrelevant in the game because that is there only purpose, as documented, in the game.

[tarcone]

Does a disgruntled mentor negatively affect the development of a player?

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Does a disgruntled mentor negatively affect the development of a player?

No one knows.

[bmerryman]

In most cases you would have the young player active; however, it should be noted that the player you're mentoring needs to be active.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by bmerryman

In most cases you would have the young player active; however, it should be noted that the player you're mentoring needs to be active.

Is that known for sure with FOF2K7?

[bmerryman]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Is that known for sure with FOF2K7?

I ran my study back on version 6.0. I assume 6.1a is the same. I'll check real quick.

[bmerryman]

Yep. Just ran a season with a rookie DT (23/35) and a 3rd year DT (24/42) both inactive with mentor present. Neither progressed a lick ending up at (23/35) and (24/42). Therefore, as in version 6.0, you have to have the "mentoree" active to receive the benefit. It's strange because the young guys are still working with the mentor in practice. I guess the mentoring only happens if their dressed and ready to go on Sunday.

[gstelmack]

It is interesting that you have the seeming contradiction of "gains experience at the roster position because he is practicing there" vs "can't gain many points unless actually playing a game and playing a lot in that game".

[Sgran]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

It is interesting that you have the seeming contradiction of "gains experience at the roster position because he is practicing there" vs "can't gain many points unless actually playing a game and playing a lot in that game".

The first team always gets the lion's share of the reps in practice. The back-ups run the scout team.

[Firefly]

One thing I've been wondering about for a while is if it's better to play 30 snaps in a game as opposed to, say, 5 snaps in 6 games. I tend to believe the latter helps player development more, but I wonder if anyone else has the same suspicion.

[danimal]

Is there an experience limit on when players stop responding to mentoring? For instance, will a 5-year veteran still develop more quickly with a mentor? How about a 7-year veteran? Also, is this experience threshold different for QBs?

[JetsIn06]

Originally Posted by danimal

Is there an experience limit on when players stop responding to mentoring? For instance, will a 5-year veteran still develop more quickly with a mentor? How about a 7-year veteran? Also, is this experience threshold different for QBs?

From what I remember, a players 3rd year is the last he'll gain anything from a mentor.

[danimal]

Originally Posted by JetsIn06

From what I remember, a players 3rd year is the last he'll gain anything from a mentor.

Is it different for QBs? For some reason, I always thought the experience threshold was higher, but I could be wrong.

[pschumac2]

I'm still trying to figure out how to get a mentor lol but this great info if I figure out how to use them or get them.

[JetsIn06]

Originally Posted by pschumac2

I'm still trying to figure out how to get a mentor lol but this great info if I figure out how to use them or get them.

It's listed on their player card. It will say Mentor to: "Position"

Also, if you go to the attitude advisory tab, there will be a blue M under "notable".

[Firefly]

And to get them you have to offer them money. As in a contract After that all you need to do is sit them on the bench and let them speed up your players' development. I don't know how they do it exactly. Secret of the trade, I guess.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

I'm not sure what the "correct" answer is here. The fact that inactive mentors had no impact on development in FOF2K4 was not in the documentation, either. That's something the community figured out. (cthomer, maybe?) Technically, I suppose it's not to be expected that Solecismic Software would document a change to a previously-undocumented aspect of the game.

I suppose there are people out there besides the game's creator who think this change should have remained hidden information, but I'm not sure who they are. It makes sense to leave some things mysterious, but when it's changing a known game mechanic from a system that made little/no sense from a real-world perspective to one that makes a lot more, it probably should be documented, so that we have a clue about it without extensive testing.

Yep, that was me. And now years later you have repaid me by being the guy who did a study on this...which i found by doing a search for 'mentor' here. I still wasn't sure how it worked in 2K7.