Eyeballs on America's balls: Patriotism

[Karlifornia]

During the course of the USA's short existence, patriotism has been seen as an honorable quality. America gives rights to everyone that other countries do not, so we should love "her". Making democracy work (quibbles disregarded) on a large scale is admirable. Keeping a potentially catastrophic cold war cold was great. Civil rights movement sfor women and blacks were great, if tardy. There's a lot to be proud of when it comes to our young country, but the warts are there. Nuking Japan twice, slavery, the genocide of the Native Americans....pretty terrible, but in the context of superpowers, par for the course.

It is my feeling that the educated in this country are aware of both the peaks and valleys in this countrys advancement of quality of life. The non-educated are usually too worried about how they're going to get their next meal to think about both history and the present on a scale much larger then self-sustenance.

From blind patriotism, to straight up resistance, we all have our own feelings about this country that we are so fortunate to live in (I am not trying to sway the voting here....in fact, my feelings are quite tepid towards America in it's current form....but to deny how lucky we are to be here would be completely ignoring conditions in 85% of other countries worldwide).

[Neon_Chaos]

Show me to my embassy! Whoo!

[Cringer]

I am going to bed now. I hear you are not allowed to do this in other countries so I am excited to do so.

[WSUCougar]

Nuking Japan twice

Perhaps an argument for a different thread, but this falls into the "what doesn't belong in this list" category in my opinion.

By the way, I voted #3.

[SteveMax58]

I think options 2 & 3 are not necessarily different options.

I can love my country unconditionally, but also be ashamed and/or disagree with it's direction at times. I voted option 2, however, because I prefer "unconditionally" to "generally", though I think both words are probably not an accurate definition for me.

[tarcone]

I think ashamed is too harsh a word. I like disagree more.
I voted #2. Because I will never be ashamed of what the United States has done and, in theory, is trying to do.
Did we make mistakes along the way? Sure. Slavery was a bad thing. Genocide of Native Americans was bad.
Dropping atom bombs on Japan probably saved millions of lives more then it killed. So not a bad thing.

[George]

I'd say I'm somewhere between 2 and 3, but closer to 2. I'm technically an immigrant, though I came here as an infant. My family came here with little and made a great life. I've seen first hand what you can achieve here, and I have a lot of love for this country.

Having said that, we've made mistakes and will probably do so in the future; however, we're not alone in that regard. I don't give us a free pass, though.

In the end, I think the good greatly outweighs the bad, and despite our collective flaws, I've very proud to be an American.

[Schmidty]

I always feel embarrassed for people who are over-the-top patriotic, unless they're a vet.

Throughout human history, pride, patriotism, and greed are the main causes of strife in this world. And yes, I consider patriotism and certain forms of organized religion to be very similar.

[chesapeake]

The issue is a lot more complex than this poll can reasonably represent. One of the things this administration has done is to further blur the line between patriotism and jingoism. It also forgets that America is a lot more than its current government. My own personal sentiments are close to #1. But to me, the stars and stripes mean something much different than what the Bush Administration would have you believe. In fact, it upsets me greatly to think of how they have co-opted our most revered national symbol for their own political purposes.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by tarcone

I think ashamed is too harsh a word. I like disagree more.
I voted #2. Because I will never be ashamed of what the United States has done and, in theory, is trying to do.
Did we make mistakes along the way? Sure. Slavery was a bad thing. Genocide of Native Americans was bad.

Really? I think it's fine to vote #2, though I voted #3. But you think "ashamed" is too strong a word for genocide and slavery? I agree with you in principle that we have to learn how to keep going forward despite our mistakes, and hold on to the things that are great about America, but I have absolutely no reservation about being ashamed, disgusted, or sickened by some of hte things that have happened in our history.

To my mind, if we have to make little of such great evils as genocide and slavery in order to be patriotic, then I don't want to be patriotic. I think that's the sort of thing that pushes some people towards choices #4 and below. We need to be able to voice disgust at something like slavery, yet not let that disgust flavor everything about our country.

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by Autumn

Really? I think it's fine to vote #2, though I voted #3. But you think "ashamed" is too strong a word for genocide and slavery? I agree with you in principle that we have to learn how to keep going forward despite our mistakes, and hold on to the things that are great about America, but I have absolutely no reservation about being ashamed, disgusted, or sickened by some of hte things that have happened in our history.

To my mind, if we have to make little of such great evils as genocide and slavery in order to be patriotic, then I don't want to be patriotic. I think that's the sort of thing that pushes some people towards choices #4 and below. We need to be able to voice disgust at something like slavery, yet not let that disgust flavor everything about our country.

Option 5 is for non-Americans. (At least, I think it is.)

[MJ4H]

Wish I could see who voted #4.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by MattJones4Heisman

Wish I could see who voted #4.

I bet he is anti-marijuana

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by MattJones4Heisman

Wish I could see who voted #4.

If they are serious, I wonder why they don't leave. (Not in a America : Love it or leave it way), but if you are that unhappy, not like there is anything stopping you from leaving and finding a different place to live.

[path12]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I bet he is anti-marijuana

What? Goddamn commie should get out then.

I voted 3 by the way, mainly because of the wording. I love my country, but I can't say that I support what it does unconditionally.

[SackAttack]

How 'bout this?

I love this country unconditionally.

I'm not, on the other hand, quite so thrilled about what some people have done, or have tried to do, in her name over the years. That's a quibble not with the experiment, though, but with the people who occasionally get to run it.

[Subby]

I love this country - the people running it? Not so much.

[Pumpy Tudors]

I think America is a great place in which to chill out with your friends.

[rkmsuf]

Eyeballs on Pumpy's balls.

[Autumn]

Well, I think given this is a poll, and you're restricted to the limited wording, I think we can construe a vote for #4 as simply a more negative opinion of America than #3. Probably someone who is disgusted enough to no longer be able to feel like "I love America." I don't think that means someone has to move as 1) they may not think there are better choices, or 2) they may wish to stay and insist that America get better.

I think these are emotional issues, and #4 can just be construed as the flip side of #1. Does it make sense to live in a country you say you're ashamed of and want to leave? No. But pure jingoism isn't logical either, they're both just a way of expressing a strong feeling.

[Dutch]

You can be patriotic or not, that's what makes this country great and why I voluntarily choose to be patriotic.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Heck, I'm still mentally quibbling over how to define "this country". Is it an entity unto itself, different from the inhabitants of it? Or are the inhabitants actually "the country"? And where does its potential vs its reality factor in?
For that matter, am I answering in this moment or over the sum total of the existence?

Separately

Does it make sense to live in a country you say you're ashamed of and want to leave?

Seems to me that it could make quite a bit of sense actually. Not everyone has the means/circumstances where they can just immediately get the hell out of Dodge even though they're quite unhappy. Further, that would also come back to the issue of whether you believe that unhappiness (and accompanying desire to be elsewhere) is temporary or permanent. So from a practical standpoint I can definitely see where being ashamed/wanting to leave & yet remaining can easily coexist.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Heck, I'm still mentally quibbling over how to define "this country". Is it an entity unto itself, different from the inhabitants of it? Or are the inhabitants actually "the country"? And where does its potential vs its reality factor in?
For that matter, am I answering in this moment or over the sum total of the existence?

That's a very good point, and one of the main reasons for disagreement on this issue, I think. Some people think of America and think of the government, and what it's done in our past. Some people think of the political model. Others think of the culture and social mores. Others think of the people who live here. It's hard to have a discussion on that without defining it. If one person is arguing about America, thinking about the people that live in their town, and someone else is thinking about the institution of slavery, they're going to butt heads or miss each other entirely.

[Pumpy Tudors]

To a few of us, "America" is a big slab of land between other big slabs of land known as "Canada", "Mexico", and "Akon's house."

[Abe Sargent]

I neither love nor hate America. It is a state, not something worthy of my love nor my loyalty. People are worthy of my love. God is too. Not an organization.

[JediKooter]

I voted for option 2. As screwed up as the politicians are who think they run this country, there's no other place I'd rather be.

Where's the trout option?

[Critch]

I'm not an American, but I think yous are a-ok.

[Radii]

I'm happy to have been born here and I think we have an exciting and interesting history, but I no longer feel like I live in the greatest nation on earth, like I did when I was younger. I now feel like I live in one of 10-15 countries that anyone should consider themselves happy and lucky to have been born in.

I voted #3, it seems the natural choice.

Had my life turned out differently, if a couple decisions had gone differently I very, very easily could have ended up moving to another country during the last 5 years, and I suspect the odds that I move to another country later in life are greater than 25%.

[rowech]

What if I love the country but generally can't stand the people in it?

[Noop]

I love the ideals very close to hate the realities.

[Cringer]

Originally Posted by rowech

What if I love the country but generally can't stand the people in it?

I don't think I could stand people anywhere.

[EagleFan]

The thread lost me when nuking Japan twice was listed as a black mark (the thread creator's biases are showing).

I guess the person voting number 4 doesn't have the balls to give their reasons? Oh well, that's the greatest part of this country is that they have the right to say that (ironic isn't it).

[SFL Cat]

US is still the only country I'd want to call home. Those who don't haven't traveled much.

[Groundhog]

To me It's not about dropping an atomic bomb so much, it's more about targetting civillians rather than military targets to force a country in to submission, which is something awfully similar to what another group of much-maligned folks try to do these days as well.

I'm not American, but I love Australia, though not blindly so. I don't consider Australia beyond criticism, and lots of things have happened over our history that I'm not proud of. I also recognise that there are probably lots of other countries I could live quite happily in - the US likely one of them.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

US is still the only country I'd want to call home. Those who don't haven't traveled much.

Or haven't travelled enough. Honestly, there are plenty of nice countries out there. Patriotism is more a natural love of where you're from than a result of every other place sucking.

[jeff061]

My parents fucked here.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Yes Groundhog, surely it would have been better to launch a ground invasion that would have killed millions of Allied troops and likely tens of millions of Japanese civilians involved in the defense of their home islands.

Your argument may be the single biggest moment I can recall here, and that's pretty stiff competition.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

Those who don't haven't traveled much.

Or haven't given up on acquiring a nice island somewhere.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Yes Groundhog, surely it would have been better to launch a ground invasion that would have killed millions of Allied troops and likely tens of millions of Japanese civilians involved in the defense of their home islands.

Your argument may be the single biggest moment I can recall here, and that's pretty stiff competition.

I'm not saying that the atomic bombing was a bad thing (the napalm was probably worse anyhow) - maybe it was indeed the best thing to do at the time. I just don't think it's neccessarily something to be proud of, and it definately counts as a very dark day in the history of your country.

[WSUCougar]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

I'm not saying that the atomic bombing was a bad thing (the napalm was probably worse anyhow) - maybe it was indeed the best thing to do at the time. I just don't think it's neccessarily something to be proud of, and it definately counts as a very dark day in the history of your country.

I respectfully disagree. Pearl Harbor was a very dark day in the history of our country. I'm not "proud" of the atomic bombing of two Japanese cities, nor of the fire bombing of Tokyo and other cities. But war is hell, and strategic bombing was a necessary evil in the course of winning a very brutal war.

[SackAttack]

Just on a totally random train of thought here, would it have been as effective to use atomic weapons on one or two of the islands the Japanese were so fiercely defending as to use them on Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

Just on a totally random train of thought here, would it have been as effective to use atomic weapons on one or two of the islands the Japanese were so fiercely defending as to use them on Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

Nope. The military was in complete control of the government, and it was going to take something pretty darn destructive to get them to surrender. Hell, even *after* the atomic bombs, the Emperor still had to go to great lengths to evade his military "advisors" in order to secretly broadcast the surrender.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by WSUCougar

I respectfully disagree. Pearl Harbor was a very dark day in the history of our country. I'm not "proud" of the atomic bombing of two Japanese cities, nor of the fire bombing of Tokyo and other cities. But war is hell, and strategic bombing was a necessary evil in the course of winning a very brutal war.

I don't disagree with Pearl Harbour. They were both dark days, for different reasons.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Yes Groundhog, surely it would have been better to launch a ground invasion that would have killed millions of Allied troops and likely tens of millions of Japanese civilians involved in the defense of their home islands.

Your argument may be the single biggest moment I can recall here, and that's pretty stiff competition.

I'd just like to point out that the question of the bombing of Japan is a subject of much, and continued, historical, philosophical and moral debate. It's not like questioning it was invented in this thread, people have been doing it since before the decision was made and probably will be for the rest of time. You can have your opinion, and many people will agree with it, but it's not exactly bonehead material to disagree with you.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Autumn

I'd just like to point out that the question of the bombing of Japan is a subject of much, and continued, historical, philosophical and moral debate. It's not like questioning it was invented in this thread, people have been doing it since before the decision was made and probably will be for the rest of time. You can have your opinion, and many people will agree with it, but it's not exactly bonehead material to disagree with you.

Whenever dealing with JIMGA in a thread like this it does well to remember that if he had control of the US's nukes, Japan would be far from the only country in the world that has its very own A-Bomb dome.

[rowech]

It's easy to say dropping the bomb was wrong. It's tougher to make the right decision and drop it. The estimated troop loss of US soliders of an invasion was overwhelming when compared to the loss of using the two bombs. It was the quickest and easiest way to win the war with the least amount of life loss on the US side. It's really a simple decision in my mind. It sucks that it happened but it's war.

If nothing else, it has given the entire world a hell of a deterrent in using the things for the last 60 years.

[Cringer]

Using nukes is not even up there with the worse thing this country has done. Genocide of the native indians and slavery are far worse. Do I blame those on this country as a whole as much as I blame it on the attitudes of men back when those happened? Probably not.

You can look at history and say this country did this, that country did that, but what it comes down to is man in history has been total crap because of acceptable ideals held during those times that are no longer viewed the same way. If you think about it, the human race has done a lot of growing up over the last 100-150 years.

Crap I am tired. Goodnight...morning, whatever.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Autumn

people have been doing it since before the decision was made and probably will be for the rest of time.

There's never been a shortage of fools in the world.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

There's never been a shortage of fools in the world.

Or of people willing to call people fools for disagreeing with them. I'm willing to bet that nobody on this board has enough of the facts, or the qualifications, to definitively analyze this matter. We can all throw out our thoughts based on what we happen to know, but I don't cherish my opinion or those of anyone else who hasn't actually studied the matter, truly studied it.

[Huckleberry]

JimGA had an excellent point regarding defining the term "this country" in the context of this poll.

I answered Option 2 but am a combination of 1, 2, and 3 because of the different possible definitions.

I love the United States of American unconditionally. The concept of this nation and what it stands for, the fact that it's my home, the way its government is set up, etc. are all things I love.

However, the people that live in this country have made some really terrible decisions in the past and will make really terrible decisions in the future. This applies to politicians, leaders, citizens. Everybody.

Doesn't impugn the USA as a nation in the sense of the country as an entity. But it does impugn the nation in the sense of the people living there and the people in charge.