Time to get screamed at?

[Super Ugly]

I only registered today, but I've been a long-time reader here. I've found the posts, on the whole, to be informative and hilarious. Maybe you'll say that I don't have any right in saying anything, though ...
The whole business with your Parisian friend saddened me, to say the least. The casual xenophobia that I've seen displayed isn't representative of America as a whole - I know that - and I know that it isn't launched at people like Darkiller maliciously (well, maybe some of it is, but people don't want to get into that right now). I just want to offer my humble opinion to you all ... countries like France, Germany and yeah, even your ally England (my home) have a long tradition of dissent in which we question the actions of our leaders (does that make any sense?) - at times using avery cruel (European?) sense of humour to get our point across. In America, that kind of behaviour is frowned upon, and it's hard for us outside the country to understand that. Some of the anti-Bush remarks, while OTT for sure, probably weren't meant as any kind of deep disrespect for your nation. That much I'm sure of. People from outside America have a very hard time understanding the culture and intent. Yeah, it's a mixture of jealousy and even dread, but most of the time it's just plain bafflement. I used to live in America - my girlfriends's American, too - so I can see and understand how wildly different places like France and the USA are. Without wanting to sound like a hippy, it's ignorant remarks like the ones posted on this board that perpetuate fear and misunderstanding. Your countries are inextricably linked in history - more so than you may wish to acknowledge. It'd be a shame if world events continued on their present course (the fault of all parties concerned), and all of that was lost.
Darkiller, I sincerely hope that you will come back to this board, and I also hope that the rest of you out there can forgive him for his posts. I would like to continue contributing to this board in the future - I just hope that any differences in opinion won't frighten me (and others like myself) from doing so.
Peace.
p.s. Sorry this was so damned long.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Sorry S.U., but I have no plans to forgive nor forget those who support America and those who behave detrimental to her interest.

[tucker342]

Good post S.U., agreed on most everything you said.

[CamEdwards]

I think calling our president a cocksucker kind of crosses the line of dissent into hate.

[Tekneek]

Still, I wonder... Does anyone think it matters if DK thinks Bush is a cocksucker? I'm surprised that bothers people. Clinton was accused of hundreds of crimes, including murders, drug trafficking, coverups, financial fraud, etc. Was that all hate too? Ultimately which is worse : Being called a cocksucker, or a murderer?

I don't think it matters what somebody in France thinks of George W. Bush. Apparently George W. Bush doesn't even care what the Prime Minister of France thinks of him! Why should we care what some FOF gamer in Paris thinks of him?

[MikeVic]

Welcome!

[TroyF]

Our country has a long history of challenging leadership as well. . . Even as far as states waging war to seperate.

When DK wants to call America a "terrorist" state, I have every right to tell him to go to hell. I'm smart enough to know my governments policies are not perfect, that they've made many questionable moves in the past.

Still, I think DK crossed the line. Call it xenophobia if it makes you feel better, but anyone waging a debate using the logic DK showed will never get my respect.

TroyF

[Super Ugly]

I don't think I explain myself well enough. What I'm trying to say is that if you insult, for example, the PM in Britain, people kind of take it as a given. If you ridicule the President in the USA, people act as if you just shat on their carpet. But that's just my personal experience - one Thanksgiving I laughed my arse off to Roseanne singing the Star Spangled Banner. My girlfriend's family was ... less than impressed. All I'm saying is that you can seem to go a lot further here, and when we think our behaviour is acceptable in other cultures ... well, it leads to all kinds of grumblings.

[Super Ugly]

"Call it xenophobia if it makes you feel better, but anyone waging a debate using the logic DK showed will never get my respect."

Yeah, of course. But really I was referring to the cruel anti-French comments that have swamped the posts. I agree though, xenophobia works both ways. A lot of the protest in England right now is driven by a lot of unwarranted anti-Americanism.

[STK]

Originally posted by pjstp20
I'm wondering where you get this from. There are tons of people here who are opposed to Bush and this war and protesting it just as much as those in Europe.

Have you ever seen British Parliament in session? They boo and jeer speakers that have the floor.

And they wear powdered wigs.

[Super Ugly]

"Have you ever seen British Parliament in session? They boo and jeer speakers that have the floor.

And they wear powdered wigs."


God, the horror ... I don't know about the powdered wigs, though. I think that's just in private, when they've been caught with a plastic bag over their head. and an orange stuck in their mouth. No shit. Apparently some MPs find it a turn on.

Maybe I should consider French citizenship.

Originally posted by Super Ugly
If you ridicule the President in the USA, people act as if you just shat on their carpet

That is because the President of the United States is the Commander and Chief of our military. This would be the highest of all ranking officer positions that anyone could ever hope to achieve. Therefore, respect is deserved but anyone that holds that office. We Americans take anything resembling an insult to the highest of all military officers in the USA very seriously. Instead of trying to get us to lighten up on your lesser view of our president why not try and respect our position on the matter since he is our elected official and not yours.

[Super Ugly]

"I mean I can't be sure because I'm not Brittish, but I don't think something similar would be well received in the U.K. would it?"

I wouldn't be so sure ...

"Therefore, respect is deserved but anyone that holds that office. We Americans take anything resembling an insult to the highest of all military officers in the USA very seriously."

No doubt. But then, my girlfriend's dad is in the air force, and I doubt he'd agree with you 100% on that (but don't let John Ashcroft hear that, huh fellas?). Shucks, I'm not trying to stir it, nor am I openly criticising your President (in private I may hold different views, but that's besides the point). I just wish there was a little less finger pointing going on from BOTH sides and a little more constructive dialogue.

[MrBug708]

If he woulda blasted Pat Robertson and Ted Kennedy, us Americans might be alright

[Travis]

Originally posted by couriers
That is because the President of the United States is the Commander and Chief of our military. This would be the highest of all ranking officer positions that anyone could ever hope to achieve. Therefore, respect is deserved but anyone that holds that office. We Americans take anything resembling an insult to the highest of all military officers in the USA very seriously. Instead of trying to get us to lighten up on your lesser view of our president why not try and respect our position on the matter since he is our elected official and not yours.

Dude, I hate to break it to you, but there was a whole lot of Dubya bashing going on before this war, and respect wasn't exactly the first word on a lot of people's minds when it came to Bush v2.0.

Once the war was begun in full, it seems American's have become a lot more protective of their President which is cool and all, but it seems like it's really going from one extreme to the other in an awful damn hurry.

Then again, most of us in Canada are counting down the days until Cretien leaves office, so my opinion may be a bit jaded.

[sabotai]

I pretty much agree with what Tekneek said. I don't get what DK said about Bush that pissed people off so much. I've seen just the same from others on this board.

And I have yet to hear anyone call Bush anything worse then what the republicans called Clinton.

And Birtish Parliment is one of the most entertaining shows on TV.

[Tekneek]

Originally posted by MrBug708
If he woulda blasted Pat Robertson and Ted Kennedy, us Americans might be alright

Hahah. Yeah, probably so. If he had been even a little witty about it, it might have gone over better as well.

[astralhaze]

Come on now, I seriously doubt George Bush has ever sucked a cock. Knowingly anyway.

Originally posted by Travis
Dude, I hate to break it to you, but there was a whole lot of Dubya bashing going on before this war, and respect wasn't exactly the first word on a lot of people's minds when it came to Bush v2.0.

Once the war was begun in full, it seems American's have become a lot more protective of their President which is cool and all, but it seems like it's really going from one extreme to the other in an awful damn hurry.

Then again, most of us in Canada are counting down the days until Cretien leaves office, so my opinion may be a bit jaded.

Consider yourself jaded then. I hate to break it to you but I wasn't one of those bashing Dubya prior to the war and no it has nothing to do with whom I voted for. When it comes to respect I hold very traditional views instilled at an early age. My parents, most elders, some policemen, nearly all doctors, every priest and most certainly the president of the United States of America are all held up high on my list of who deserves respect simply for who they are. Sorry if that doesn't hold true for yourself and your Prime Minister but for me it is always worth defending the honor of these particular individuals.

On a more specific note, I don’t argue against others speaking their minds be it positive or not about the President. However, my explanation was merely to give a reason for why someone might choose to defend against what they perceive as being negative attacks against their leader.

[Travis]

Heh, easy to chalk me up to jaded because of a flippant remark, but that's fair.

I wasn't trying to single you out in any way, just trying to point out more of a trend. It just amazes me how popular opinion sways so quickly, when a year from now, after this is over, it'd be interesting to see how many people would jump to Dubya's defense if somebody called him wacko.

I'm in no way assessing him myself, as I'm poorly underinformed to do that. Just playing a little Devil's Advocate.

[JonInMiddleGA]

just trying to point out more of a trend.

But what trend are you referring to? GHWB's approval rating in the most recent poll (3/14/03) is one point higher (58%) than it was in the first Gallup poll after he took office. There was a major spike in the first poll after 9/11 and that wave lasted quite a while (65% or higher for one year) but it would seem to me that the national opinion right now is about the same as it was when he took office.

Not ripping on you personally, I think what you said is a common notion. It's just that the data doesn't appear to support it.

[albionmoonlight]

The office of the president of the President of the United States deserves to be treated with dignity.

However,

[Conservative view] the way in which Clinton acted in his personal affairs and the disrespect that liberals and non-Americans are showing toward Bush now has degraded that dignity irrevocably. [/Conservative view]

[Liberal view] the way in which conservatives went on a witch hunt against Clinton and the callous disregard that Bush has shown to the opinions of those who disagree with him has degraded that dignity irrevocably. [/Liberal view]

[my view] the pressure on the media to produce opinions instead of ratings has lead to a world in which no office can be considered sacred. Combine that with a president whose personal morals were so poor that I would not trust him with my car for the weekend and a president whose policies and diplomatic skills leave a lot be desired and there is no wonder that the gloves are off. [/my view]

Also--it's OK to hate the president. Something about democracy and opinions and self-government.

Also--it's OK to love the president. Something about democracy and opinions and self-government.

A lot of people here make fun of France and the French leadership. DK stood up to it. People here are standing up to DK. It's all free speech and it's all OK. Don't let it ruin your day.

I always support our President regardless of who it is. Why shouldn't I? He is the one voted into that position by the majority of Americans. As a country our votes indicated we wanted him to lead us, so I will let him do the job we elected him to do. If he screws it up there is nothing I can do about it, so I just adapt on the fly and keep on keeping on. There is nothing as dumb as hearing people passionately criticize our President to the point of arguing with others, staying up at night worrying, wasting stamps on critical letters to the White House, etc. I fully support everything he does for the reasons I have outlined above.

I deeply resent anyone who criticizes our attempts to protect our freedom and the safety of our nation. Until Darkiller wakes up one morning, turns on his TV, and then watches hundreds of people (some he knew personally) jump to their death from a burning skyscraper (because suicide is faster and more peaceful than burning to death at the hands of foreign terrorists) he has no right criticizing anything about the U.S. or what it does.

The United States has been far too passive for way too long. I for one am glad they are finally flexing their muscles. You want diplomacy? The U.S. is the kind of diplomacy, but you can only be diplomatic so long until you start kicking the shit out of people who fail to heed your diplomatic warnings. There is not a single person who criticizes this action who can argue with the fact that Sadam has received more than enough warnings and had more than enough time to change his ways. If you want to criticize someone why don't you criticize him? He deserves everything he is getting and he has no one to blame but himself.

Once again before I go, I don't care what it takes to keep our country from being punked like this again I will support it. It seems to me quite a few people have already forgotten how images like this made them feel, or maybe they never did feel the sorrow and hatred I felt.



HornsManiac

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by HornsManiac
He is the one voted into that position by the majority of Americans.

Well, I agree with some of what you said, but I do think we should take a look at what I think is a factual error. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think we've had a majority of voters elect a President since 1988.

[WSUCougar]

Thanks, Super Ugly, for starting up this thread. Your intentions are clearly good and I think I see the points you are trying to make. As an American member of FOFC I appreciate it. Welcome aboard.

A couple comments of my own:

> Like most everything else, Americans are a multi-faceted people when it comes to their country. You've got the "love-it-or-leave-it" element, the flag-burners, and everything in between.

> Many of us get very touchy - sometimes irrationally so - when foreigners state, imply, or otherwise target our country for criticism. This comes from what I think is a very real national sentiment that (a) we are a "good" nation, (b) we do a huge amount internationally, whether it is military/defense oriented, trade, or relief efforts, (c) we are still seemingly despised by almost everyone.

> President Bush has been a target for mockery by many Americans since the election campaign, but this is nothing new. In fact I can't recall a President that hasn't been the subject of mockery.

[Fritz]

Originally posted by SkyDog
Well, I agree with some of what you said, but I do think we should take a look at what I think is a factual error. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think we've had a majority of voters elect a President since 1988.

I know we have never had a president ellected by a majority of Americans....

[Ben E Lou]

Dola:

Yeah, I just looked up some stats. Yes, the last candidate to win a majority of the popular vote was Bush in 1988. Interestingly, there really have only been two popular vote relative landslides (greater than 60% of the vote) in the last 60 years:

'64 Johnson over Goldwater (61%)
'72 Nixon over McGovern (61%)

The next two biggest "landslides" were Reagan '84 (59%) and Ike '56 (58%)

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally posted by couriers
Consider yourself jaded then. I hate to break it to you but I wasn't one of those bashing Dubya prior to the war and no it has nothing to do with whom I voted for. When it comes to respect I hold very traditional views instilled at an early age. My parents, most elders, some policemen, nearly all doctors, every priest and most certainly the president of the United States of America are all held up high on my list of who deserves respect simply for who they are. Sorry if that doesn't hold true for yourself and your Prime Minister but for me it is always worth defending the honor of these particular individuals.

On a more specific note, I don’t argue against others speaking their minds be it positive or not about the President. However, my explanation was merely to give a reason for why someone might choose to defend against what they perceive as being negative attacks against their leader.

I agree that certain stations in life do deserve a bit of a respect, but by no means should it be completely unquestioned. unwavering respect. Respect the person NOT the station. Just because someone is a policeman, priest, doctor, or even President of the United States does not mean that they automatically deserve, get, or command respect.

Respect is earned. A title alone should never be enough.

[Fritz]

Originally posted by Honolulu_Blue
I agree that certain stations in life do deserve a bit of a respect, but by no means should it be completely unquestioned. unwavering respect. Respect the person NOT the station. Just because someone is a policeman, priest, doctor, or even President of the United States does not mean that they automatically deserve, get, or command respect.

Respect is earned. A title alone should never be enough.

Interesting, my take on it is exactly the opposite. Some people have roles that demand respect. In this case you respect the position, not the man (though you may respect both.)

[edit]
This is what keeps things working, even if the man in the job is not up to the task.
[/edit]

[Noble_Platypus]

I agree Fritz. I didnt think much of Clinton, but the guy was president. If you dont respect the title then the whole chain of command crumbles.

[TroyF]

Johnson over Goldwater. . .

Daisy Girl. The most influential ad in political history IMO.

TroyF

PS: I agree with Fritz and his last post.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by Fritz
I know we have never had a president ellected by a majority of Americans....

Well of course, I assumed he meant "majority of voters."

[McSweeny]

i've been bashing bush ever since he came into office, and though i support our troops 100% i don't agree with this war...


that being said, great post Super Ugly

[Fritz]

Originally posted by SkyDog
Well of course, I assumed he meant "majority of voters."

I know, but my fight card is still a pugilist short of a full event and I was hoping to drum up some action.

[KWhit]

Of course Bush didn't even get more popular votes than Gore which adds to the controversy.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by KWhit
Of course Bush didn't even get more popular votes than Gore which adds to the controversy.

True, but it is hard to see that as a valid point of controversy. Like it or not, we voted under the Electoral College rules. I, for one, voted for a different candidate than I would have voted for had the rules been different. Who is to say how many would have voted differently should the rules have been different?

[Easy Mac]

i didn't vote b/c bush was going to win my state regardless

[RawIsDan]

If you insult a country's leader as a citizen of another country how can you not expect an angry reaction ? Especially a flame bait one filled with ignorant, anti-American rhetoric as DK posted.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally posted by Fritz
Interesting, my take on it is exactly the opposite. Some people have roles that demand respect. In this case you respect the position, not the man (though you may respect both.)

[edit]
This is what keeps things working, even if the man in the job is not up to the task.
[/edit]

Hmmm... No. You are right. This is most certainly right. I respect policemen because they have the uniform and badge. It's the station, not the man. Though often, not always by a longshot, respect both.

As for respecting the President. Because the position is one man. Well, one man at a time, it's a bit trickier I think. I respect the station of President, but if I don't respect the man who is president then it's tough to say "You can't criticize/mock/ridicule/ this president because he is the president." The station and man are one. Unlike, say cops/priests, where there are many at any one given time. Some good. Some not so good.

That being said, I don't think I'd call Dubya a cocksucker. An idiot? Been there. Meglomaniac? Done that. But I haven't had it in me to go after him ever since this war started. Too many more important concerns weighing on my mind like getting our troops home as quickly and safely as possible and ending this whole mess resolved with as few casaulties (on all sides) as possible.

[KWhit]

Originally posted by SkyDog
True, but it is hard to see that as a valid point of controversy. Like it or not, we voted under the Electoral College rules. I, for one, voted for a different candidate than I would have voted for had the rules been different. Who is to say how many would have voted differently should the rules have been different?

Oh yeah. I think the college is a lame system, but you're right. Those are the rules. I was just pointing out that for most people who view the election as illegitimate one of the key reasons is that Bush received less votes than Gore. I'm not one of the ones who claim that the election was stolen, but the system stinks.

[Bee]

I think in times of trouble, it is not as acceptable to be critical of your leaders. When things are going well it's fine to make jokes and comments, but when things are tough it no longer is funny. I think that's been the case in all countries, not just the US (although the US is generally more sensitive for reasons as outlined in some of the posts above).

[HornedFrog Purple]

Haha

'72 Nixon over McGovern (61%)

Like my daddy always told me, they're all crooks just vote for the one who gets the most crooked things done for you.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by HornedFrog Purple
Haha

'72 Nixon over McGovern (61%)

Like my daddy always told me, they're all crooks just vote for the one who gets the most crooked things done for you.

Are we long-lost half-brothers HFP?????

[superbama]

Did Darkkiller call the President a cocksucker? I thought he said that about Rumsfeld.