Who was more well known to average Joe?

Chief Rum · 12-07-2008, 05:42 PM

This is a poll resulting from discussion in the OJ Simpson thread.

The base figure here is the Q rating of Phil Spector--how well he is generally known by the public--as you would suppose it in 2003, just prior to the events that led to his murder trial.

Please select any of the poll options above who you believe are MORE well known at the point of time listed than Phil Spector was in 2003.

This is a multiple choice poll, so you may choose all that apply.

Logan · 12-07-2008, 06:00 PM

I feel like Carrot Top is fairly well-known for being a complete tool, which normally wouldn't be a good thing, except for this poll.

sterlingice · 12-07-2008, 06:15 PM

Why was Phil Spector the barometer? Frankly, the first person I thought of when I saw that name was Arlen Specter, he of the senate judiciary committee.

SI

Axxon · 12-07-2008, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Why was Phil Spector the barometer? Frankly, the first person I thought of when I saw that name was Arlen Specter, he of the senate judiciary committee.

SI

A bunch of guys are saying the reason they're mad at OJ and not Phil is because OJ is more famous than Phil. I didn't necessarily agree that at the time OJ was more famous than Phil though I agree that he became so.

Of course, it was all a clever way to avoid the race issue. You see, race had nothing to do with Robert Blake and Phil Spector getting a free pass and OJ being defiled and hated. It's all because he had a high enough Q rating and they didn't. Murder is only worth getting worked up over if you have a high enough Q rating. Race plays no part in it at all.

Logan · 12-07-2008, 06:21 PM

Way to make yourself look like a jackass in two threads man.

Axxon · 12-07-2008, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Logan

Way to make yourself look like a jackass in two threads man.

So, I should pretend to agree with something I don't? I don't need that kind of "respect." I disagree with something and someone decides to start a second thread about it. What am I supposed to do?

Chief Rum · 12-07-2008, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axxon

So, I should pretend to agree with something I don't? I don't need that kind of "respect." I disagree with something and someone decides to start a second thread about it. What am I supposed to do?

My second thread was started without bias, a simple poll question. It seems that no one was posting toward a bias until you posted here. I recommend you and everyone cease and desist in this poll thread and let it stand for what it is, and if you want to continue actual discussion, go back to the other thread.

Axxon · 12-07-2008, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

My second thread was started without bias, a simple poll question. It seems that no one was posting toward a bias until you posted here. I recommend you and everyone cease and desist in this poll thread and let it stand for what it is, and if you want to continue actual discussion, go back to the other thread.

I really wasn't trying to discuss it. Someone wanted to know the frame of reference and I gave it in my opinion. That's what I was doing.

Lathum · 12-07-2008, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axxon

Of course, it was all a clever way to avoid the race issue. You see, race had nothing to do with Robert Blake and Phil Spector getting a free pass and OJ being defiled and hated. It's all because he had a high enough Q rating and they didn't. Murder is only worth getting worked up over if you have a high enough Q rating. Race plays no part in it at all.

you are becoming borderline insulting ( as insulting as an internet message board can get). I cant speak for others, but race plays no part in the OJ case for me. The evidence was overwhealming and the proscecution botched it so bad ( worse then my spelling). Then he comes out with a book called "If I did it" Are you kidding me?

As for the race question I think it was a bigger deal for the black community for him to get off then it was for the white community to get a conviction. Coming on the heels of the Rodney King incident it was a very emotional case.

Chief Rum · 12-07-2008, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axxon

I really wasn't trying to discuss it. Someone wanted to know the frame of reference and I gave it in my opinion. That's what I was doing.

You could have just posted a link. As it is, I wouldn't have much of a problem with you discussing it here except that in your response to Logan, you basically took a swipe at me for starting a second thread. You leave that out, you're not even dealing with me here.

Chief Rum · 12-07-2008, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Why was Phil Spector the barometer? Frankly, the first person I thought of when I saw that name was Arlen Specter, he of the senate judiciary committee.

SI

For SI and others looking for the reference point here...

http://operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?t=69403

Axxon · 12-07-2008, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum

you are becoming borderline insulting ( as insulting as an internet message board can get). I cant speak for others, but race plays no part in the OJ case for me. The evidence was overwhealming and the proscecution botched it so bad ( worse then my spelling). Then he comes out with a book called "If I did it" Are you kidding me?

As for the race question I think it was a bigger deal for the black community for him to get off then it was for the white community to get a conviction. Coming on the heels of the Rodney King incident it was a very emotional case.

I'm not insulting you. I've never said there was 100% consensus on the issue. I do believe that in general race played a part so I question the collective society on why famous white murderers aren't universally scorned like famous black murderers all things considered. The only answer I've gotten is that he was more famous. I still await another reason.

Remember, in ALL THREE cases I've conceded that they got away with murder. Your argument above is true but it doesn't at all explain the extreme vitriol to OJ and the relative crickets chirping about Blake and Spector and no, I don't believe either of them is not recognized enough to be considered a celebrity and people have heard of all three cases.

Chief Rum · 12-07-2008, 06:46 PM

Okay, if we don't stop discussing this here, I am going to delete this thread. Go to the other thread. It goes very much against my intent to have two arguments about the very same freakin' thing going on on the board, and I am not going to stand for cluttering up the board like that.

Only posts about the poll, and validity of options of said poll or questions from people about why the poll was posted (already answered, with link) should be coming here.

Axxon · 12-07-2008, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

You could have just posted a link. As it is, I wouldn't have much of a problem with you discussing it here except that in your response to Logan, you basically took a swipe at me for starting a second thread. You leave that out, you're not even dealing with me here.

I apologize if you took my reply that way. I didn't mean to take a swipe at you for starting the thread. I was, as you said, giving the answers I was going to post in the other thread but saw this one and it fit.

I don't really think the true point of the discussion is who's more famous though and so this thread is kinda a jump from the true issue I've stated.

If you want to talk about the issue of why OJ is hated and Blake and Spector aren't the first thread is the more appropriate place. If you want to discuss who was more famous, then this is the proper thread. I just don't think this issue is the same or that important.

Again though, no swipe meant at you and sorry if you took it that way.

spleen1015 · 12-07-2008, 06:48 PM

I have no idea who Phil Spector is. Guess I'll wiki him.

Axxon · 12-07-2008, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Okay, if we don't stop discussing this here, I am going to delete this thread. Go to the other thread. It goes very much against my intent to have two arguments about the very same freakin' thing going on on the board, and I am not going to stand for cluttering up the board like that.

Only posts about the poll, and validity of options of said poll or questions from people about why the poll was posted (already answered, with link) should be coming here.

I just posted why they are two different discussions. If you still choose to delete this thread, I'll have to reopen the exact same poll. After all, no reason for people to lose posts.

SackAttack · 12-07-2008, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spleen1015

I have no idea who Phil Spector is. Guess I'll wiki him.

I never heard of him before his murder trial started getting headlines in LA.

Not that that has anything to do with guilt; only that OJ I knew of before his trial, while Phil Spector, it was like "Celebrity? Really? Take your word for it."

CU Tiger · 12-07-2008, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SackAttack

I never heard of him before his murder trial started getting headlines in LA.

Not that that has anything to do with guilt; only that OJ I knew of before his trial, while Phil Spector, it was like "Celebrity? Really? Take your word for it."

+1

in '94 OJ was as well known for his Naked Gun and NBC work as he was for his Bills/USC days....at least to a teenager at the time....

Not that i wasnt familiar with him, I mean he was OJ but he was more visible as a color commentator and his movie cameos.

PS, I had no idea who he was, still dont really other than some b lister who got away with murder.

Carrot head is mainly known by those of us who knew him when he was famous (mid 90s) not for his crap today.

DeToxRox · 12-07-2008, 08:28 PM

Norbert.

DanGarion · 12-08-2008, 01:24 AM

The question still remains, who the hell did Carrot Top kill?!?!?!?!?!?

st.cronin · 12-08-2008, 03:47 AM

Claiming that Phil Spector has ever been more famous than OJ Simpson is like claiming that Caddyshack 2 is a better movie than Caddyshack.

Butter · 12-08-2008, 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Okay, if we don't stop discussing this here, I am going to delete this thread. Go to the other thread. It goes very much against my intent to have two arguments about the very same freakin' thing going on on the board, and I am not going to stand for cluttering up the board like that.

Yet, you posted the poll. Seems silly either way.

KWhit · 12-08-2008, 07:34 AM

OJ (circa 1994) was about a million times more famous than Phil Spector. I am still not positive who Phil Spector is and wouldn't know him if I bumped into him on the sidewalk.

Samdari · 12-08-2008, 08:00 AM

This is probably not a good place to ask this question. Considering the origin of this board, there is quite a bit of bias towards knowing who the NFL player is. A 60's music fan board would almost unquestionably think Specter was the most famous.

Shkspr · 12-08-2008, 08:01 AM

Ooh, next we should do a poll and see whether LaDainian Tomlinson is more famous than Rick Rubin.

Butter · 12-08-2008, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KWhit

OJ (circa 1994) was about a million times more famous than Phil Spector. I am still not positive who Phil Spector is and wouldn't know him if I bumped into him on the sidewalk.

If you saw Phil Spector one time, you would totally know him if you ever bumped into him.

sterlingice · 12-08-2008, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shkspr

Ooh, next we should do a poll and see whether LaDainian Tomlinson is more famous than Rick Rubin.

How about

Mo Vaughn
vs
the current Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams
vs
the tag team of Pierre and Marie Curie
vs
Ron Weasley

in a 4 Corner Cage Famosity Deathmatch?

SI

B & B · 12-08-2008, 08:32 AM

This thread fails to deliver on a variety of levels.

Sun Tzu · 12-08-2008, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B & B

This thread fails to deliver on a variety of levels.

Especially in the area of pics. I was fully expecting to see at least one of these guys half naked in this thread. Very dissapointing.

I voted for the Juice post 1994. OJ's "well known-ness" was IMO as high as anyone in the last 50 years during the trial. Even little kids who barely spoke english knew there was some guy named OJ. I'm surprised the poll is as close as it is.

MIJB#19 · 12-08-2008, 08:56 AM

OJ Simpson has been a world wide known figure since the car chase. That's quite the achievement for a football player. Don't be shocked if he's the best known former-football player, even without the Naked Gun movies.

Now this Spectator guy, uhm, really, who?

sterlingice · 12-08-2008, 10:42 AM

Ooh! Ooh! Another one!

How about an Eight Cornered Octagon for King of the Universe Fame-Off Fame-Match of Doom?

*Radek Bonk
*William Katt, TV's Greatest American Hero
*Ahaziah, one of the kings of Israel who had a bad go of it
*Vanity Smurf
*Tai Shan, the baby panda born from the Washington DC zoo in 2005
*Some guy named Walter who used to live at my address and we keep getting mail here
*Thorium, #90 on the Periodic Table of elements
*The concept of "original position" by philosopher John Rawls

SI

MikeVic · 12-08-2008, 11:02 AM

Ok, is it bad if I don't know who this Spector guy is?

KWhit · 12-08-2008, 11:08 AM

No.

Nobody really knows who he is except Axxon who has some weird crush on the guy.

Pumpy Tudors · 12-08-2008, 12:01 PM

Wait, didn't Carrot Top kill that girl from "My Sister Sam"?

Logan · 12-08-2008, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samdari

This is probably not a good place to ask this question. Considering the origin of this board, there is quite a bit of bias towards knowing who the NFL player is. A 60's music fan board would almost unquestionably think Specter was the most famous.

I actually think this is a great place to ask this question. For one, every person in America knows who the fuck OJ Simpson is, so that eliminates the bias from this site. A 60's music fan board would be horribly biased, but they would all know who OJ is, and there may be a couple outliers who don't know Specter.

And considering this site has a very broad range of people, from all over the country (plus outside), of different educational and social backgrounds, and I'd also say the group on here is more intelligent overall than a random selection of people...yeah I think this is a good place to ask one of the most obvious questions ever been asked.

Chief Rum · 12-08-2008, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

Yet, you posted the poll. Seems silly either way.

But I didn't post it and then have some long post about why you should vote this way or that. The poll was merely to show what public opinion as best as we can measure it on this board would be with respect to this question. I posted it and let it roll. It was only intended to provide us with at least some evidence for the other thread. It wasn't intended to be Bitch Thread #2.

Chief Rum · 12-08-2008, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samdari

This is probably not a good place to ask this question. Considering the origin of this board, there is quite a bit of bias towards knowing who the NFL player is. A 60's music fan board would almost unquestionably think Specter was the most famous.

What about Carrot Top? He's kicking Phil Spector's ass here.

Kathy Griffin · 12-08-2008, 12:24 PM

Why am I not in this poll. Carrot Top, OJ, they're all D-list celebrtities.

Chief Rum · 12-08-2008, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kathy Griffin

Why am I not in this poll. Carrot Top, OJ, they're all D-list celebrtities.

Sorry, Kathy, I limited my poll to just one ugly redhead, and Carrot Top was suggested first in the other thread.

Pumpy Tudors · 12-08-2008, 02:17 PM

dont talk shit about kathy griffin

Chief Rum · 12-08-2008, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

dont talk shit about kathy griffin

No, I am talking shit TO Kathy Griffin. There's a difference.

Pumpy Tudors · 12-08-2008, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

No, I am talking shit TO Kathy Griffin. There's a difference.

valid point

Daimyo · 12-08-2008, 05:17 PM

I first heard of OJ Simpson when I was about 6 years old because he was a great football player. I knew his face later from the Naked Gun movies and rental car commercials. Michael Jordan may have perfected "sports star as crossover mainstream celebrity", but OJ pioneered it. The murder trial was only a big deal because everyone knew OJ.

I'd never heard of Spector until this very thread and didn't know what he did until I looked him up in Wikipedia. I don't think there is any comparison between the two. For context I'm 30 years old.

Crim · 04-14-2009, 01:10 AM

Phil Spector guilty, to face minimum of 18 yrs

Chief Rum · 04-14-2009, 01:27 AM

Yup, thought of this discussion tonight when I saw the news.

Shkspr · 04-14-2009, 01:34 AM

sabotai · 04-14-2009, 01:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shkspr

Who?

Some guy....*shrug*

Izulde · 04-14-2009, 01:56 AM

Good heaven! He's HIDEOUS

flere-imsaho · 04-14-2009, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Yup, thought of this discussion tonight when I saw the news.

Ksyrup · 04-14-2009, 03:23 PM

I can't believe a single person in the world would consider OJ less popular at the time of his arrest than Spector at the time of his. OJ was a crossover celebrity on national commercials and in movies, and Phil Spector was known 40 years ago, but in a "behind the scenes" way, and essentially disappeared from the face of the earth for 25-30 years until he killed someone.

Maybe Matthew Sweet or Eddie Money would vote for Phil Spector, I don't know. But that's about it.

View Poll Results: Who is more well known than Phil Spector in 2003?
OJ Simpson in 1994 (pre-Bronco chase)	77	62.10%
OJ Simpson (present day)	111	89.52%
Carrot Top (present day)	60	48.39%
No one (Phil Spector was the more well known)	2	1.61%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 124. You may not vote on this poll

12-07-2008, 06:15 PM	#3
sterlingice Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Back in Houston!	Why was Phil Spector the barometer? Frankly, the first person I thought of when I saw that name was Arlen Specter, he of the senate judiciary committee. SI __________________ Houston Hippopotami, III.3: 20th Anniversary Thread - All former HT players are encouraged to check it out! Janos: "Only America could produce an imbecile of your caliber!" Freakazoid: "That's because we make lots of things better than other people!" Last edited by sterlingice : 12-07-2008 at 06:16 PM.

12-07-2008, 06:46 PM	#13
Chief Rum Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Where Hip Hop lives	Okay, if we don't stop discussing this here, I am going to delete this thread. Go to the other thread. It goes very much against my intent to have two arguments about the very same freakin' thing going on on the board, and I am not going to stand for cluttering up the board like that. Only posts about the poll, and validity of options of said poll or questions from people about why the poll was posted (already answered, with link) should be coming here. __________________ . . I would rather be wrong...Than live in the shadows of your song...My mind is open wide...And now I'm ready to start...You're not sure...You open the door...And step out into the dark...Now I'm ready. Last edited by Chief Rum : 12-07-2008 at 06:47 PM.

12-08-2008, 01:24 AM	#20
DanGarion Coordinator Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: PNW	The question still remains, who the hell did Carrot Top kill?!?!?!?!?!? __________________ Los Angeles Dodgers Check out the FOFC Groups on Facebook! and Reddit! DON'T REPORT ME BRO!

12-08-2008, 03:47 AM	#21
st.cronin General Manager Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: New Mexico	Claiming that Phil Spector has ever been more famous than OJ Simpson is like claiming that Caddyshack 2 is a better movie than Caddyshack. __________________ co-commish: bb-bbcf.net knives out

12-07-2008, 06:00 PM	#2
Logan Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: NYC	I feel like Carrot Top is fairly well-known for being a complete tool, which normally wouldn't be a good thing, except for this poll.

12-07-2008, 06:21 PM	#5
Logan Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: NYC	Way to make yourself look like a jackass in two threads man.

12-07-2008, 06:48 PM	#15
spleen1015 Coordinator Join Date: Sep 2003	I have no idea who Phil Spector is. Guess I'll wiki him.

12-07-2008, 08:28 PM	#19
DeToxRox Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Michigan	Norbert.

12-08-2008, 07:34 AM	#23
KWhit Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Conyers GA	OJ (circa 1994) was about a million times more famous than Phil Spector. I am still not positive who Phil Spector is and wouldn't know him if I bumped into him on the sidewalk.

12-08-2008, 08:00 AM	#24
Samdari Roster Filler Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Cicero	This is probably not a good place to ask this question. Considering the origin of this board, there is quite a bit of bias towards knowing who the NFL player is. A 60's music fan board would almost unquestionably think Specter was the most famous. __________________ http://www.nateandellie.net Now featuring twice the babies for the same low price!

12-08-2008, 08:01 AM	#25
Shkspr College Benchwarmer Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Amarillo, TX	Ooh, next we should do a poll and see whether LaDainian Tomlinson is more famous than Rick Rubin.

12-08-2008, 08:32 AM	#28
B & B College Benchwarmer Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: A sports era long ago when everything didnt require a Nike logo	This thread fails to deliver on a variety of levels. __________________ I think that Rosen will be the best QB in the class. -albionmoonlight

12-08-2008, 08:56 AM	#30
MIJB#19 Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Maassluis, Zuid-Holland, Netherlands	OJ Simpson has been a world wide known figure since the car chase. That's quite the achievement for a football player. Don't be shocked if he's the best known former-football player, even without the Naked Gun movies. Now this Spectator guy, uhm, really, who? __________________ * 2005 Golden Scribe winner for best FOF Dynasty about IHOF's Maassluis Merchantmen * Former GM of GEFL's Houston Oilers and WOOF's Curacao Cocktail

12-08-2008, 10:42 AM	#31
sterlingice Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Back in Houston!	Ooh! Ooh! Another one! How about an Eight Cornered Octagon for King of the Universe Fame-Off Fame-Match of Doom? Radek Bonk William Katt, TV's Greatest American Hero Ahaziah, one of the kings of Israel who had a bad go of it Vanity Smurf Tai Shan, the baby panda born from the Washington DC zoo in 2005 Some guy named Walter who used to live at my address and we keep getting mail here Thorium, #90 on the Periodic Table of elements The concept of "original position" by philosopher John Rawls SI __________________ Houston Hippopotami, III.3: 20th Anniversary Thread - All former HT players are encouraged to check it out! Janos: "Only America could produce an imbecile of your caliber!" Freakazoid: "That's because we make lots of things better than other people!"

12-08-2008, 11:02 AM	#32
MikeVic Head Coach Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Hometown of Canada	Ok, is it bad if I don't know who this Spector guy is?

12-08-2008, 11:08 AM	#33
KWhit Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Conyers GA	No. Nobody really knows who he is except Axxon who has some weird crush on the guy.

12-08-2008, 12:01 PM	#34
Pumpy Tudors Bounty Hunter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Pittsburgh, PA	Wait, didn't Carrot Top kill that girl from "My Sister Sam"? __________________ No, I am not Batman, and I will not repair your food processor.

12-08-2008, 12:24 PM	#38
Kathy Griffin n00b Join Date: Jun 2008	Why am I not in this poll. Carrot Top, OJ, they're all D-list celebrtities.

12-08-2008, 02:17 PM	#40
Pumpy Tudors Bounty Hunter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Pittsburgh, PA	dont talk shit about kathy griffin __________________ No, I am not Batman, and I will not repair your food processor.

12-08-2008, 05:17 PM	#43
Daimyo College Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Berkeley	I first heard of OJ Simpson when I was about 6 years old because he was a great football player. I knew his face later from the Naked Gun movies and rental car commercials. Michael Jordan may have perfected "sports star as crossover mainstream celebrity", but OJ pioneered it. The murder trial was only a big deal because everyone knew OJ. I'd never heard of Spector until this very thread and didn't know what he did until I looked him up in Wikipedia. I don't think there is any comparison between the two. For context I'm 30 years old. Last edited by Daimyo : 12-08-2008 at 05:17 PM.

04-14-2009, 01:27 AM	#45
Chief Rum Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Where Hip Hop lives	Yup, thought of this discussion tonight when I saw the news. __________________ . . I would rather be wrong...Than live in the shadows of your song...My mind is open wide...And now I'm ready to start...You're not sure...You open the door...And step out into the dark...Now I'm ready.

04-14-2009, 01:34 AM	#46
Shkspr College Benchwarmer Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Amarillo, TX	Who?

04-14-2009, 01:56 AM	#48
Izulde Head Coach Join Date: Sep 2004	Good heaven! He's HIDEOUS __________________ 2006 Golden Scribe Nominee 2006 Golden Scribe Winner Best Non-Sport Dynasty: May Our Reign Be Green and Golden (CK Dynasty) Rookie Writer of the Year Dynasty of the Year: May Our Reign Be Green and Golden (CK Dynasty)

04-14-2009, 03:23 PM	#50
Ksyrup This guy has posted so much, his fingers are about to fall off. Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: In Absentia	I can't believe a single person in the world would consider OJ less popular at the time of his arrest than Spector at the time of his. OJ was a crossover celebrity on national commercials and in movies, and Phil Spector was known 40 years ago, but in a "behind the scenes" way, and essentially disappeared from the face of the earth for 25-30 years until he killed someone. Maybe Matthew Sweet or Eddie Money would vote for Phil Spector, I don't know. But that's about it. __________________ M's pitcher Miguel Batista: "Now, I feel like I've had everything. I've talked pitching with Sandy Koufax, had Kenny G play for me. Maybe if I could have an interview with God, then I'd be served. I'd be complete." Last edited by Ksyrup : 04-14-2009 at 03:25 PM.

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)