ceiling for your young "franchise" QB - McNabb?

[hoopsguy]

I had this discussion with a Cowboys fan recently around Romo, but I think that it is equally applicable for Cutler, Rivers, and Ryan right now.

Everyone hopes that their young QB will be the next Brady or P. Manning, but those guys are going to end up as all-time greats. How realistic is it to expect your young player to reach this level?

Given what you have seen from your "franchise" QB, would you be satisfied with him progressing and playing at the same level as Donovan McNabb has over his ten year career, plus whatever he has left in the tank? I'm not talking about the regular season or playoff record, as those are a by-product of the QB + the surrounding talent. I'm talking about the QB performance in a vacuum. A different team will likely have different results (maybe less playoff appearances, maybe Super Bowl wins, etc).

[DaddyTorgo]

oooh - great question, and a great example.

i would say the answer is yes.

[Logan]

Yeah, a very good example. I'd say yes.

[DeToxRox]

Honestly, Eli Manning right now is what I want out of a franchise QB.

I'd say from here on out he's a shue in for 3200 - 3500 yards, 22-27 TD, and 10-13 INT.

He manages games well, he gets all his players involved, and he is nails under pressure.

And I used to hate Eli, but that kid has really evolved into a protoytpe at QB.

[MrDNA]

If I can add Brady Quinn to the list of "potential franchise QBs" I would answer: hell yes. Donovan's had a great level of success, especially compared to the other QBs from that "great" class (sigh... Tim Couch...)

[DaddyTorgo]

Eli Manning is a spoiled, entitled little whiny bitch who makes me throw up in my mouth a little bit each time he tastes an ounce of success.

Where does this derive from? Frankly it derives largely from his behavior when he was drafted, and I don't think it's something that I will ever be able to get over. And it's not even like I'm a Chargers fan or anything, I just think that was an extremely classless move. The guy should be happy enough he got drafted by somebody IMO, what makes him think he's so special that he can force a trade? Fuck him.

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Eli Manning is a spoiled, entitled little whiny bitch who makes me throw up in my mouth a little bit each time he tastes an ounce of success.

Where does this derive from? Frankly it derives largely from his behavior when he was drafted, and I don't think it's something that I will ever be able to get over. And it's not even like I'm a Chargers fan or anything, I just think that was an extremely classless move. The guy should be happy enough he got drafted by somebody IMO, what makes him think he's so special that he can force a trade? Fuck him.

That's fine, but if I didn't say it was Eli, and just a generalization of a perfect franchise QB, would you disagree?

[Logan]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Eli Manning is a spoiled, entitled little whiny bitch who makes me throw up in my mouth a little bit each time he tastes an ounce of success

Funny, as someone who lives in NYC and therefore is subjected to constant media coverage of the Giants, a team I can't stand...there has been absolutely nothing that has happened since the draft that would make him fit this description. Get over it already.

edit: I quoted this before you expanded on yours. It was a move orchestrated by his father, if you want to hold that against him for the rest of his career, you're more than welcome to. But considering everything he has done since that has been pure class, and there's many more bad guys in the NFL, I think it should be forgotten.

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by Logan

Funny, as someone who lives in NYC and therefore is subjected to constant media coverage of the Giants, a team I can't stand...there has been absolutely nothing that has happened since the draft that would make him fit this description. Get over it already.

Yeah. Eli seems like a good guy, and as a Lions fan, I do not blame him. Hell, I suspect it'll happen to us this year. Why do you blame a guy who does not want to play for a shitty franchise? If Stafford or Smith said "fuck you Lions, you've shown nothing that'll show I can thrive here" then why would you sign with them?

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Logan

Funny, as someone who lives in NYC and therefore is subjected to constant media coverage of the Giants, a team I can't stand...there has been absolutely nothing that has happened since the draft that would make him fit this description. Get over it already.

Why should I? It's my opinion, I'm entitled to it.

[Deattribution]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Eli Manning is a spoiled, entitled little whiny bitch who makes me throw up in my mouth a little bit each time he tastes an ounce of success.

Where does this derive from? Frankly it derives largely from his behavior when he was drafted, and I don't think it's something that I will ever be able to get over. And it's not even like I'm a Chargers fan or anything, I just think that was an extremely classless move. The guy should be happy enough he got drafted by somebody IMO, what makes him think he's so special that he can force a trade? Fuck him.

Somebody sounds like they are still bitter over the Super Bowl

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Deattribution

Somebody sounds like they are still bitter over the Super Bowl

Nope. I felt this way since he was drafted. As I said, it stems from that.

[Deattribution]

I'd take the performance of McNabb in a QB, Injuries and off the field controversy aside.

But throw in those two things and I think I would pass him up and take my chances on a rookie I had no idea about.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Nope. I felt this way since he was drafted. As I said, it stems from that.

Assuming you have the same venom towards Elway and his career?

[Deattribution]

Not to continue the thread jack, but I figured everyone got over the whole Eli ordeal when he was pretty much proven right by the way they treated Drew Brees, and to a lesser extent Marty Schottenheimer. Both were classless acts by the Chargers.

[DaddyTorgo]

Elway was a bit before my time for me to have strong feelings about. I wasn't really an NFL fan until HS when he was basically already done.

[DaddyTorgo]

can we end the threadjack and return to the original question?

[Logan]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

can we end the threadjack and return to the original question?

Yes, when the original threadjacker requests it, it can now return to topic.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Eli Manning is a spoiled, entitled little whiny bitch who makes me throw up in my mouth a little bit each time he tastes an ounce of success.

Pats fan calling someone whiny? Oh the irony....

[miami_fan]

Kind of hard to put the QB in a vacuum but I think it McNabb is a great example. In my opinion, he has been very good to great with the least amount talent overall surrounding him.

[Autumn]

It's a good question. I think in action most team staffs, and fans, answer No by the fact that they'll move on to someone else if the kid doesn't perform like Brady. But I think taking a broader view a team should be glad to have someone at the McNabb level, given how easy it is to end up with worse. But everyone wants to go for the best, and so I think a lot of potentially decent QBs get bounced around or shown the door.

[cartman]

If McNabb is considered the ceiling, and taking into account that Romo has had much better stats in his first three seasons as a starter than McNabb's first three as a starter, then it is a no-brainer to keep Romo if you are saying that the career arcs will be similar. That means that Romo will have a higher high than McNabb experienced by quite a large margin.

[kcchief19]

I have a hard time separating a QB and his statistics from his win/loss record. Stats alone don't tell the whole story.

That said, earlier today I said there were only two guys I would define as "franchise QBs" -- Manning and Brady. The "ceiling" (maybe "floor" is a better term?) I had in mind were the next guys on my list, McNabb and Roethlisberger.

For me, I essentially define a "franchise" QB as someone who I'd be willing to see quarterback my favorite team for the duration of his career. The guy is the QB and there is no doubt, debate or question. In essence, I think a franchise guy is someone who you envision playing for one team his entire career barring an injury or quirk (think Montana leaving San Francisco for KC because he missed an entire season and you have another franchise-type guy behind him).

Considering only stats, if I took Manning and Brady I'd be confident my favorite team would make many deep runs in the playoffs and win a title or two. With McNabb, I'd feel like the team had someone who would get the job done but wouldn't necessarily be someone I'd take for their entire career.

I think Rivers is reaching that level and Brees might be as well. Delhomme I think a guy like Hasselbeck was on that second tier for a while but isn't now.

The Cowboys are my second favorite team but I don't have the love affair with Romo that most people seem to have. I also don't see what people love about Cutler. But that has more to do with intangibles, which is why I don't think you can divorce stats and wins as much as you may want. I don't see Romo and Cutler being the guys who can will their teams to wins the way McNabb and Roethlisberger can.

[RedKingGold]

To me, a "franchise" quarterback or number one overall draft pick has a successful career once he takes the team who drafted him to a Super Bowl.

[molson]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Pats fan calling someone whiny? Oh the irony....

Have you ever read any of your posts after an Eagles game?

Though I'm interested in your opinion on the original post, since you were calling for Kolb to start the rest of the season a few weeks ago.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

To me, a "franchise" quarterback or number one overall draft pick has a successful career once he takes the team who drafted him to a Super Bowl.

So Steve Young, by definition, never had a successful career, am I correct?

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Pats fan calling someone whiny? Oh the irony....

Agree that is ridiculous. Reminds me of when Harrison got his knee taken out a few years ago at the end of the season by the Titans Bobby Wade and Harrison was calling it a a "dirty " play.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by Logan

Assuming you have the same venom towards Elway and his career?

I do and have said as much on the board.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by molson

Have you ever read any of your posts after an Eagles game?

Though I'm interested in your opinion on the original post, since you were calling for Kolb to start the rest of the season a few weeks ago.

Have you read why I was calling for Kolb? The Eagles were out of it, or so I incorrectly thought (glad that they basically won the lottery week 17 to get in), and it seemed that McNabb was not in the team's plans for next season forward so at that point it only makes sense for the team to see if the person they are pinning there hopes on at QB is going to be worth it or if they need to look elsewhere.

As for your first statement. Supporting posts please? There is a huge difference between venting frustration at the team and whining. Whining is the Pats fans with their "everyone is jealous of us" "everyone is against us" "look what we had to overcome" crap.

As for the opinion upon McNabb, I have been a huge supporter of his during his time in Philly. He frustrates me once in a while but no where near as much as Reid's play calling.

[JonInMiddleGA]

No, I would not be satisfied with that, as there are more than a dozen QB's I'd rather have in the league at pretty much any given moment. If my guy is really a "franchise QB" worth the phrase then I don't think I should feel like there's that many I'd rather have. Otherwise he's just my current starter, not my franchise if you see the distinction I'm trying to make.

[Izulde]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

No, I would not be satisfied with that, as there are more than a dozen QB's I'd rather have in the league at pretty much any given moment. If my guy is really a "franchise QB" worth the phrase then I don't think I should feel like there's that many I'd rather have. Otherwise he's just my current starter, not my franchise if you see the distinction I'm trying to make.

Which are those QBs by the way?

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by cartman

If McNabb is considered the ceiling, and taking into account that Romo has had much better stats in his first three seasons as a starter than McNabb's first three as a starter, then it is a no-brainer to keep Romo if you are saying that the career arcs will be similar. That means that Romo will have a higher high than McNabb experienced by quite a large margin.

McNabb 1st 3 seasons:
44 G, 38 GS, 721-1278 (56.4%) for 7456 yds, 54 TD, 32 Int (2.5%), 215 carries for 1424 with 8 TD's

Romo's 1st 3 seasons:
16 G, 0 GS, 0-0 for 0 yards, 0 TD, 0 Int, 2 carries for -2 yards



Of course since you are just counting Romo's first three seasons as a starter we can look at the following names:

Owens, Roy Williams, Whitten

Small, Charles Johnson, Dunn


Or a couple other numbers:
1st 3 seasons as a starter postseason record:

Romo: 0-2
McNabb: 3-2

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Izulde

Which are those QBs by the way?

I've never been particularly impressed by McNabb as a QB but I'm not particularly inclined to go searching through the league rosters for every season he's been in the league to give annual answers but I'll quickly throw out some names from this current season since you asked.

Rivers, Brees, Peyton, Eli, Ryan, Romo, Cassell/Brady, Cutler, Big Ben, Flacco, Favre make 11 (twelve if you count both NE guys). At some point you start getting into that realm I was talking about, starters vs franchise guys and I'm getting close to stretching my comfort zone with that word here. But I'd also rather have current editions of Warner, Garcia, and possibly Collins & Hill starting for my team than McNabb.

edit to add: Scratch "close to stretching my comfort zone" and replace it with "there aren't really half the guys in the league I'd consider as 'franchise' QB's instead of 'starting' QB's ... but I'd rather have roughly half the leagues QB's than McNabb.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I've never been particularly impressed by McNabb as a QB but I'm not particularly inclined to go searching through the league rosters for every season he's been in the league to give annual answers but I'll quickly throw out some names from this current season since you asked.

Rivers, Brees, Peyton, Eli, Ryan, Romo, Cassell/Brady, Cutler, Big Ben, Flacco, Favre make 11 (twelve if you count both NE guys). At some point you start getting into that realm I was talking about, starters vs franchise guys and I'm getting close to stretching my comfort zone with that word here. But I'd also rather have current editions of Warner, Garcia, and possibly Collins & Hill starting for my team than McNabb.

edit to add: Scratch "close to stretching my comfort zone" and replace it with "there aren't really half the guys in the league I'd consider as 'franchise' QB's instead of 'starting' QB's ... but I'd rather have roughly half the leagues QB's than McNabb.

Are you serious?

Rivers? Cutler? Flacco? Cassels? Favre? Warner? Collins? Hill? Garcia? Romo?

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Are you serious?

Rivers? Cutler? Flacco? Cassels? Favre? Warner? Collins? Hill? Garcia? Romo?

His list was so inane that it wasn't even worth a response.

[stevew]

I am so tired of the drama surrounding the eagles and McNabb. Can't wait till they are bounced from the playoffs again.

[JonInMiddleGA]

{shrug} The question was asked, I answered ... albeit getting the original question a little mixed up with the point I was trying to make about the whole franchise vs starting QB thing. My list was more about the latter than the former and really turned into "how many guys would I prefer to be my starting QB than DMcN". I did not do a list that was about career arc (or however you want to put it), which would have been more attuned to the original question. My bad if that generated confusion, I was just trying to list which dozen or so QB's I'd rather have this year than him, including some guys who I would prefer because of how they could be used effectively within their talent range, not because they're some sort of awe inspiring superstars.

If my franchise guy - ostensibly Matt Ryan I guess - turned out to be McNabb, I'd be disappointed because I really feel like he's more of a starter because he's the best on the roster, not one of the greats in the league. More like one of the good/pretty good in the league. Maybe I apply tougher standards to the whole "franchise QB" tag than most people, I dunno. Not something I spend a hella lot of time trying to define but I think my thought process goes something like "a guy you want to build your team around" instead of "a guy you build your team around because you can't come up with a better option right now". And I don't believe the former grow on trees, there's only a handful of them at a given time. Doesn't make the others horrible QB's, they just aren't people I'd jump with glee at making my team revolve around. That's what Ryan is (in this hypothetical case) so if he peaks as McNabb then I'd have to be disappointed because there's never been a single day in his career that I would have bet the farm on McNabb,
I simply don't see him as that kind of player.

[mrsimperless]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

Why do you blame a guy who does not want to play for a shitty franchise?

Because if you want the privilege of playing in the NFL then you have to abide by their rules. The draft is part of the game and there is NO single player who is bigger than the game.

As far as Eli goes I like him though. He may be devoid of personality, but it is better than the trainwrecks a lot of these guys become.

And I would say that an above average quarterback who can win a super bowl is something to be happy about. "Franchise" QBs are not easy to come by. They more or less have to fall into your lap. If your team has even one in your lifetime I'd say you are lucky. And no, McNabband Eli aren't franchise QBs. They're capable of winning games on their own, but they don't make a habit of it. However, you put a good team around them and they can make that team great.

[Tigercat]

Talking about QB play in a vacuum, I am more than happy with Brees' current level. If I find out one day it isn't his ceiling, I will probably have an instantaneous orgasm.

[cuervo72]

I think if we're going to play the "who better" game, we should also pose the question "what QBs from 2000-present would you rather have had". Not at any given moment, but over the whole period (eliminate guys who had insane years but then tanked - i.e. Marc Bulger). Farve, Brady, Manning are givens I'd say. Who else?

(that aside...I still can't honestly say that I didn't like Randall better than McNabb)

[DaddyTorgo]

you'd want favre since 2000? really? i'd take someone else third (over him) during that time period behind Brady/Manning for sure

[cuervo72]

Heh, well maybe maybe not. I did wonder after I wrote that.

[DaddyTorgo]

i don't really have an answer for who i'd take right now (would have to do some comparing), but i'm sure i could find somebody.

[chesapeake]

A wise person absolutely should be satisfied if your QB of the future turns out to have as good of a career as has McNabb. Just as I am satisfied that Matt Hasselbeck has turned out to be a solid and occasionally spectacular QB since Holmgren traded for him to fill that role for the Seahawks.

I wish that Hasselbeck was a Hall of Fame caliber QB. But expecting every QBotF to be one is ludicrous. Most end up sucking. Considering the past QBotFs that the Seahawks have annointed since the conclusion of the Dave Kreig era -- Kelly Stouffer, Dan McGwire and Rick Mirer, each of which cost at least a 1st round pick -- having one pan out as well as Hasselbeck has is very satisfying.

[Neuqua]

As a Bears fan, I would be ECSTATIC to have a quarterback come even close to McNabb.

[Neuqua]

1992: Harbaugh, Peter Tom Willis, Will Furrer
1993: Harbaugh, Willis
1994: Erik Kramer, Steve Walsh
1995: Kramer 1996: Kramer, Dave Kreig
1997: Kramer, Rick Mirer
1998: Kramer, Steve Stenstrom, Moses Moreno
1999: Shane Matthews, Cade McNown, Jim Miller
2000: McNown, Matthews, Miller
2001: Miller, Matthews
2002: Miller, Chris Chandler, Henry Burris
2003: Kordell Stewart, Chandler, Rex Grossman
2004: Grossman, Jonathan Quinn, Craig Krenzel, Chad Hutchinson
2005: Kyle Orton, Grossman
2006: Grossman
2007: Grossman, Brian Griese, Orton
2008: Orton, Grossman

Yeesh.

[henry296]

I think the way to approach this questions, if your team heavily invested in a quarterback either through draft, free agency or trade what performance would be an acceptable return on that investment. I'm sure it depends on the size of the contract, but I'm think 1st or 2nd round pick or 4-5 year contract where you are pegging your future on that QBs success.

I would easily take McNabb's performance in that situation.

[MikeVic]

You did have Kordell, Neuqua.

[DaddyTorgo]

okay - of all the sites on the interwebs i can't find one that compiles cumulative qb ratings for time periods? that can't be right - i figured there had to be one.

[gstelmack]

McNabb is having the running QB issue of injuries. I think he had a great couple of years, but has been tailing off. Of course, it's hard to tell how much is McNabb, and how much has been the coaching staff's refusal to run or get him a decent receiver. So I'm not sure. But I don't know if he's who I'd want leading my franchise.

Of course, so many of the QBs have warts. I've liked Rivers since he was at NC State, because he always gives his all to try and find a way to win (something I don't think McNabb has, see the Super Bowl game). But with the Chargers he doesn't seem to wake up sometimes until the fourth quarter. Jeff Garcia and Daunte Culpepper have had the running QB curse as well, with some fantastic years then just dying off. Jake Delhomme will just throw killer interceptions at exactly the wrong time, but then Brett Favre made a hall-of-fame career out of that strategy. Tom Brady can't handle a strong pass rush. Peyton Manning loves to blame his receivers.

Really, all the QBs in the NFL clearly suck...