Front Office Football Central  

Go Back   Front Office Football Central > Main Forums > FOF9, FOF8, and TCY Discussion
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read Statistics

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-03-2009, 08:14 AM   #1
Higgs44
n00b
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Why does my Defense suck so bad????

I have good to very good players on my defense. Ive read the help file Defensive Pass Coverage Screen, and set up the defense accordingly per situations. I do pretty well in scouting my opponents and knowing when they run and pass. Yet im constantly getting torched every game while gambling on a pass, expecting a pass, etc... My run defense seems ok, but against the pass, its like it doesnt matter, i get torched every time.

An example... i just played a game against an opponent, where it was obvious he would pass at least 70% of the time (he passed 66%), so I set my game plan defensively to combat the pass a lot more than the run... the result was just unbelievable.

28/39 314 yards 5 TDs. And most of his incompletions came late in the game when it was out of reach. For most of the game he was over 80%.

The WRs who killed me... 42/42 who's all get downfield and nothing else and a 35/35 whos best attribute is Special Teams.

Its not like my defense is garbage either, which just makes me sick.

DE 52/52
DE 41/41
NT 77/77
SILB 36/64
WILB 24/55
SLB 23/63
WLB 62/62 Sack Machine 29 sacks in first 2 seasons.
CB 22/45
CB 54/54
SS 56/56
FS 66/66

Any help is appreciated. This kind of stuff really has me losing interest in the game and questioning the decision to buy it.

Higgs44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2009, 09:16 AM   #2
Ben E Lou
Morgado's Favorite Forum Fascist
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Greensboro, NC
Let's see....

1. You don't have very good players on your defense. You have one very weak CB, and probably get very little help from your linebackers in coverage. Also, your pass rush probably isn't all that good overall. (WLBs with the right skills are almost always sack machines in the 3-4 in FOF, fyi.)

2. My guess is that you're overdoing your pass expectation. If you do too much of any thing in FOF, you get hurt overall.

3. I wonder about your sample size here. Is this just a case of bad dice rolls?
__________________
The media don't understand the kinds of problems and pressures 54 million come wit'!
Ben E Lou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2009, 09:50 AM   #3
Higgs44
n00b
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
I knew that would be said for the most part, which is why I should have posted my OTHER teams defense... Which I get about the same futility.

DE 62/62 52 and 59 pass rush skills, 80 run D
DE 66/66 78 and 80 pass rush skills, 58 run D
NT 79/79 95 and 66 pass rush skills, 100 run D
SILB 47/47 Run stopper
WILB 48/48 decent in m2m, more of a pass rusher
SLB 75/75 great in coverage
WLB 34/62 great pass rusher
CB 66/66 at least 70 in all bars from run d to punish hit, except zone 61
CB 55/55 very good bars
SS 48/48 very good bars, light in m2m and endurance
FS 33/40 decent coverage bars, poor run
Higgs44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2009, 09:55 AM   #4
Higgs44
n00b
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben E Lou View Post
Let's see....

1. You don't have very good players on your defense. You have one very weak CB, and probably get very little help from your linebackers in coverage. Also, your pass rush probably isn't all that good overall. (WLBs with the right skills are almost always sack machines in the 3-4 in FOF, fyi.)

2. My guess is that you're overdoing your pass expectation. If you do too much of any thing in FOF, you get hurt overall.

3. I wonder about your sample size here. Is this just a case of bad dice rolls?

I have 8 sacks (4 in each), 12 hurries and 6 QB knock downs in 2 games so far with the first defense,

So if im guessing correctly that hes passing on just about all of his plays, thats a bad thing???? I mean he only ran for 78 yards, so its not like I was guessing wrong.

This has been going on for an entire season + since Ive assembled the 2nd defense. Just seems no matter what i do, teams just shred me through the air.

Last edited by Higgs44 : 02-03-2009 at 10:24 AM.
Higgs44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2009, 11:37 AM   #5
Nogram
Mascot
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Dime. Never Blitz. Let them run on you and focus on stopping the pass.

Last edited by Nogram : 02-03-2009 at 11:38 AM.
Nogram is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2009, 05:27 PM   #6
bulletsponge
Pro Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: TX
i shouldnt say this cause im afraid it will bite me in the ass, but run less 3 and 4 deep zones in heavy pass situations
bulletsponge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2009, 09:14 PM   #7
Higgs44
n00b
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by bulletsponge View Post
i shouldnt say this cause im afraid it will bite me in the ass, but run less 3 and 4 deep zones in heavy pass situations

bullet... Ive been doing this already. I was told long ago about this. I rarely use 4 deep, and 3 deep isnt that high.
Higgs44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2009, 09:43 PM   #8
bulletsponge
Pro Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: TX
then get better defensive players, and let them gel. no it isnt fast and easy, but its the best way
bulletsponge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2009, 10:09 PM   #9
Yoda
High School Varsity
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Woodstock, GA
Running 3 or 4 deep zones when you are playing a 3-4 defense isn't always a bad thing. It really depends on the coverage skills of your LB's.

To me, playing defense in FoF is about putting your best players in position to make the plays. If that means playing a 'base' defense in passing situations, then do it. It does no good to have a 60/60 LB sitting on the bench while your 39/39 3rd for 4th DB is on the field for 70% of your plays.
__________________
Championships Won
CCFL 2040
PFL 2015 2022 2026 2046
FFL 2013 2014 2015
RNFL 2014 2029
GMFL 2009
HFL 1983 1987 1990
TFL 1983
vNFL 2024
GML 2011
WOOF 2018
Yoda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2009, 10:32 PM   #10
Nogram
Mascot
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Run a test...

Run a season with the base defense (REX), then run one with Zero blitzing and only Dime, the results may SHOCK you. It is close to a bug, so use at your own discretion.
Nogram is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2009, 11:23 PM   #11
Yoda
High School Varsity
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Woodstock, GA
Sure, I'll bite:
Base Season-
Pass Defense:
Att:563
Comp:315
Yards:3717
Rate: 73.0
Rush Defense:
Att:337
Yards:1464

OpPPG: 18.5
YPG: 309.1
OpFumb: 12
Int: 22

All Dime Season-
Pass Defense:
Att:543
Comp:313
Yards:3057
Rate: 73.9
Rush Defense:
Att:389
Yards:2162

OpPPG: 20.6
YPG: 319.1
OpFumb: 9
Int: 14

Guess I could run more than a 1 season sample set.... what was I suppsed to see? Same passing stats except less yardage, giving up alot more running?
__________________
Championships Won
CCFL 2040
PFL 2015 2022 2026 2046
FFL 2013 2014 2015
RNFL 2014 2029
GMFL 2009
HFL 1983 1987 1990
TFL 1983
vNFL 2024
GML 2011
WOOF 2018
Yoda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2009, 08:16 AM   #12
bmerryman
Mascot
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Quote from Jim Gindin Q & A:

"Being able to limit the pass depends more heavily on your personnel than anything else, so a pair of excellent cover cornerbacks is the cornerstone of a successful defense."
bmerryman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2009, 09:06 AM   #13
3ric
College Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Sweden
Related question... are there some situations in which you could set your defensive gameplan to either 100% aggressive run defense or 100% aggressive pass defense with any long-term success?
__________________
San Diego Chargers (HFL) - Lappland Reindeers (WOOF) - Gothenburg Giants (IHOF)
Indiana: A TCY VC - year 2044 - the longest running dynasty ever on FOFC!
3ric is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2009, 10:03 AM   #14
nickelback
n00b
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
You know what would be nice, a Defensive Gameplan Library similar to the offensive one. It is quite obvious that most people have no clue on defense, including myself. I see guys writing up dynasties and posting pictures from their team summaries screen and it is insane how good those defenses are sometimes. Just have no clue what I'm doing wrong but it almost seems like the game is broke on the defensive side.
nickelback is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2009, 10:06 AM   #15
gstelmack
Pro Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Cary, NC
In none of the rosters above did you post the stats of your nickel and dime DBs. With how often the game loves to force you into nickel and dime, those backs can make or break a defensive game plan.
__________________
-- Greg
-- Author of various FOF utilities
gstelmack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2009, 01:04 PM   #16
Tormaz
Mascot
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Defense to me is more about getting big red bars.

Once you have that many things will fall into place.
Tormaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2009, 03:41 PM   #17
TheMeat
n00b
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Alberta
This is a very interesting thread to me because I also sturggle on defense. I have never changed much on my defenses and almost always use REX. Although I've been told that is bad idea I just hadn't gotten around to really digging into the testing of various offenses.

I just finished a season of a MP league with a friend and my defensive players are quite a bit better than his, 5-10 pts OVR better than his at every position. His defense has done better than mine for about 6 years straight, although my pass offense is a juggernaut my pass D has been worst in the league 5 out of 6 years. But because I had let my defense go to ruin before rebuilding it the last three years my cohesion sucks (55 Dline and 61 Secondary). After pouring over the numbers from the past few years I have come to two shaky hypotheses:
  1. Cohesion matters more on defense than it does on offense.
  2. Since I run a very heavy pass offense it puts a lot of pressure on my pass defense and using the REX settings is a bad idea.
So number 1 is a simply fix: TIME. But I will be commencing defensive testing starting tonight on how to adjust my D to the fact that they see close to 700 pass plays every year, but only 300+ run plays since my team is usually leading against CPU teams.

I share your frustration Higgs, but don't give up! if the game were easy it'd be boring, you will eventually figure out a defensive strategy and when you do it will bring a sense of accomplishment.

Also by looking at your first defensive team I will point out the (perhaps obvious) point that a 22/99 player is just a 22 right now, not a 99. These players will perform like a 22 and since they're not developed I would guess they're young and that means laclustre cohesion.
__________________
Owner/GM/Head Coach and Towel Boy for the St. Louis Rams.of the FOWL
Owner of the Green Bay Packers of the PFL.
First Response Coordinator of Public Relations Disasters for the Balzac Ticklers of the FOOLX. (retired)
Owner/GM of the soon to be awesome Fort Worth Fury of the IHOF

TheMeat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2009, 03:53 PM   #18
Yoda
High School Varsity
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Woodstock, GA
Cohesion is important for defense.

In game planning, REX is WAY to agressive (for my taste, anyway).
__________________
Championships Won
CCFL 2040
PFL 2015 2022 2026 2046
FFL 2013 2014 2015
RNFL 2014 2029
GMFL 2009
HFL 1983 1987 1990
TFL 1983
vNFL 2024
GML 2011
WOOF 2018
Yoda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2009, 07:27 PM   #19
Higgs44
n00b
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmerryman View Post
Quote from Jim Gindin Q & A:

"Being able to limit the pass depends more heavily on your personnel than anything else, so a pair of excellent cover cornerbacks is the cornerstone of a successful defense."


My 2 CBs are pretty good imo.

LCB
m2m 70
zone 61
bnr 72
pd 76
ph 77
int 28 <---- hands of stone

RCB
m2m 67
zone 40
bnr 75
pd 71
ph 39
int 94

Nickle
m2m 40/59
zone 47/50
bnr 38/49
pd 28/36
ph 12
int 33/54

Dime (which I dont use very often)
m2m 75
zone 71
bnr 0
pd 44
ph 9
int 12

Cohesion for D Front and secondary is 73 each

Last edited by Higgs44 : 02-04-2009 at 07:35 PM.
Higgs44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2009, 06:02 PM   #20
Higgs44
n00b
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
well... 2nd defense got waxed yet again... just doesnt make any sense to me, and im pretty close to calling it a day with this game.
Higgs44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2009, 11:06 PM   #21
Yoda
High School Varsity
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Woodstock, GA
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmerryman View Post
Quote from Jim Gindin Q & A:

"Being able to limit the pass depends more heavily on your personnel than anything else, so a pair of excellent cover cornerbacks is the cornerstone of a successful defense."

That's a load of BS.

I have 2 great CB's in the GEFL and they can't stop crap.

I've had better success with 40-50 rated CB's than those guys.
__________________
Championships Won
CCFL 2040
PFL 2015 2022 2026 2046
FFL 2013 2014 2015
RNFL 2014 2029
GMFL 2009
HFL 1983 1987 1990
TFL 1983
vNFL 2024
GML 2011
WOOF 2018
Yoda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2009, 04:28 AM   #22
Sef0r
n00b
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: New Zealand
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
That's a load of BS.

I have 2 great CB's in the GEFL and they can't stop crap.

I've had better success with 40-50 rated CB's than those guys.

I've had the same problem with who my scout rates as being great, I end up using low rated players who seem to play better. That is all in SP as I am only just experiencing MP and find I only have 1 corner who has an average pass def rating.
Sef0r is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2009, 06:46 PM   #23
Higgs44
n00b
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
I honestly dont see the point in drafting defensive players anymore. The greatest of em arent half as good as mediocre offensive players.

Last edited by Higgs44 : 02-10-2009 at 06:46 PM.
Higgs44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2009, 08:01 PM   #24
bmerryman
Mascot
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
That's a load of BS.

I have 2 great CB's in the GEFL and they can't stop crap.

I've had better success with 40-50 rated CB's than those guys.

I disagree. The better defenses I see tend to have good corners. Do all of them? No.
bmerryman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2009, 08:14 PM   #25
Sef0r
n00b
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: New Zealand
Obviously that depends on what "good corners" actually means.
Better bar ratings or better play ratings?

The best defence I had in SP (sorry, no real MP experience yet) has 40/40 and 45/52 rated corners. I had a defense with 80+ rated corners, both of them and they played average. My lower rated corners played well, defended 33 balls between them both, 7 INTs between them.

However in saying that, I've also had high BAR corners who actually played well and low BAR corners who played badly....
Sef0r is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2009, 02:52 PM   #26
RendeR
Coordinator
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Buffalo, NY
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sef0r View Post
Obviously that depends on what "good corners" actually means.
Better bar ratings or better play ratings?

The best defence I had in SP (sorry, no real MP experience yet) has 40/40 and 45/52 rated corners. I had a defense with 80+ rated corners, both of them and they played average. My lower rated corners played well, defended 33 balls between them both, 7 INTs between them.

However in saying that, I've also had high BAR corners who actually played well and low BAR corners who played badly....


I would say that your results are proof that your highly rated corners were doing exactly what they're meant to.

2 80+rated corners basically shut down or at the least make the QB check off to a 3rd and 4th receiver who is covered by your LB's or your nickel n Dime players. Those players rack up the stats because they're seeing FAR more action than the main receivers that your big 2 are covering.


I have to join the bandwagon of "My defense has decent players but they just can't stop anything". Its frustrating. I'm gonna try the all Dime zero blitz idea in a few games and see if anything changes.
RendeR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2009, 03:28 AM   #27
Hammer
College Prospect
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Its seems to me, that the best defense in this game is great offense. If you can get a lead, and get into pass defense, its much easier to shut a passing game down.

I don't worry too much about CBs, I invest primarily on offense. This approach has yielded some very good results.

It all comes back to great QBx1, WRx2. Thats the easiest way to win in this game.
Hammer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2009, 08:48 AM   #28
Yoda
High School Varsity
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Woodstock, GA
I disagree with that statement. While a good offense does help, it's not the end all, be all.

Last season in the TFL my Falcons were one of the leagues worst offenses, averaging 12.8 ppg, yet my defense limited my opponents to 14.0 ppg.
__________________
Championships Won
CCFL 2040
PFL 2015 2022 2026 2046
FFL 2013 2014 2015
RNFL 2014 2029
GMFL 2009
HFL 1983 1987 1990
TFL 1983
vNFL 2024
GML 2011
WOOF 2018
Yoda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2009, 02:45 PM   #29
Hammer
College Prospect
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
No, I don't think we are far apart Yoda. I don't think its everything, but it helps. If you can get a team to pass into your aggressive pass defense you have an advantage, thats all I was saying.

From there go about business as usual. Get the right personnel and gameplan the best you can. I tend to invest in system defensive players, red bars where I want them. Not highly rated players so much. Having a good offense puts you one step ahead in the race to build a good defense, but it doesn't mean you forget your defense entirely.

Last edited by Hammer : 03-01-2009 at 02:47 PM.
Hammer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2009, 05:02 PM   #30
beargrowlz
High School Varsity
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Georgia
Quote:
Originally Posted by Higgs44 View Post
well... 2nd defense got waxed yet again... just doesnt make any sense to me, and im pretty close to calling it a day with this game.

Maybe your expectations are too high? Or maybe you just notice the negative your team produces? Your HFL defense - the one where you were starting a CB with a 9 B&R and 22 zone in the game that started this discussion - is 12th in fewest passing yards allowed, 12th in opponent passer rating and 12th in opponent passes defensed. Relative to the rest of the league you're playing better than average pass defense.

In the game before Staubach torched you, you only allowed 160 yards passing. In the four games after, you allowed 195, 180, 172 and 148 yards passing.

I think maybe you're just looking for a perfection that isn't - and shouldn't - be there.



Cheers,
-Bear
__________________
-Beargrowlz

[email protected]
TCY Golden Scribe Winner - Bear Goes Home

"The measure of a man's real character is what he would do if he knew he would never be found out."
--Thomas B. Macaulay

Last edited by beargrowlz : 03-01-2009 at 05:12 PM.
beargrowlz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2009, 05:12 PM   #31
beargrowlz
High School Varsity
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Georgia
dola

To expound upon my last post, there are any numbers of reasons why you got hammerred in that one game and played well in others.

1) Maybe your secondary isn't as good as you think it is
2) Maybe you've got players with mismatched pass coverages, some good at one, some at another
3) Despite calling all pass defenses maybe you didn't have the players in the pass coverages that utilize their talents the best
4) Maybe you overused certain pass coverages
5) Maybe you got outcoached
6) Maybe Detroit got some damn lucky dice rolls and you got some damn poor ones

Any number of things can happen in a one off situation. Add to that the fact that defensive gameplanning isn't as intutitive or user friendly as it could be and you've got the recipe for a defensive meltdown. Even the best of defenses lay an egg occassionally.

But as I wrote above, focusing on one game - or 2 or 3 - is simply too small a sample size. To see if your defense has played well you need to view that game in the context of the entire season.



Cheers,
-Bear
__________________
-Beargrowlz

[email protected]
TCY Golden Scribe Winner - Bear Goes Home

"The measure of a man's real character is what he would do if he knew he would never be found out."
--Thomas B. Macaulay
beargrowlz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2009, 06:36 PM   #32
Yoda
High School Varsity
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Woodstock, GA
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammer View Post
No, I don't think we are far apart Yoda. I don't think its everything, but it helps. If you can get a team to pass into your aggressive pass defense you have an advantage, thats all I was saying.

From there go about business as usual. Get the right personnel and gameplan the best you can. I tend to invest in system defensive players, red bars where I want them. Not highly rated players so much. Having a good offense puts you one step ahead in the race to build a good defense, but it doesn't mean you forget your defense entirely.

True.

That I agree with. I think bars in the right places that fit in a defensive scheme is the way to go.

And having an offense that can stay on the field and generate points definately helps.
__________________
Championships Won
CCFL 2040
PFL 2015 2022 2026 2046
FFL 2013 2014 2015
RNFL 2014 2029
GMFL 2009
HFL 1983 1987 1990
TFL 1983
vNFL 2024
GML 2011
WOOF 2018
Yoda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2009, 06:38 PM   #33
Yoda
High School Varsity
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Woodstock, GA
If you have a 75/75 CB who sucks at BNR coverage and you are playing BNR 30% of the time... that's a mistake.
__________________
Championships Won
CCFL 2040
PFL 2015 2022 2026 2046
FFL 2013 2014 2015
RNFL 2014 2029
GMFL 2009
HFL 1983 1987 1990
TFL 1983
vNFL 2024
GML 2011
WOOF 2018
Yoda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2009, 07:05 PM   #34
Sef0r
n00b
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: New Zealand
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
If you have a 75/75 CB who sucks at BNR coverage and you are playing BNR 30% of the time... that's a mistake.

How true is that? How true is anything we would expect to be logical?

Has Jim ever responded to this as being a problem?
I've built defences and got players required for those defences only to fail most of the time.
I have moved from a 4-3 BnR to a 3-4 BnR where the DBs have basically remained the same.

Cornerbacks who are good/very good at M2M, BnR.
Safeties who are good/very good at M2M, Zone.

I played mostly 2 Deep BnR and FAIL.
Sometimes I want to know for sure that when I play a specific type of DEF and have the players that can actually play THAT defence I want it to work sometimes.
Sef0r is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2009, 10:43 AM   #35
Hammer
College Prospect
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
You know, its seems to me some people expect all the luck to go there way. They expect everything to go the way they want it to go. They can't accept that sometimes they will meet a better player/better man on that day. Its easy to blame the game, rather than admit you got outplayed or outcoached. Not aimed at anyone in particular, just a general observation.
Hammer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2009, 11:50 AM   #36
Shard77
Mascot
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammer View Post
You know, its seems to me some people expect all the luck to go there way. They expect everything to go the way they want it to go. They can't accept that sometimes they will meet a better player/better man on that day. Its easy to blame the game, rather than admit you got outplayed or outcoached. Not aimed at anyone in particular, just a general observation.

I agree this is true to an extent.

One thing to keep in mind is that, in FOF, we only have two primary factors with which to base our performance expectations: a player's bars and his statistics.

In RL, coaches can factor in how a player looks on the practice field and use that to determine how he fits into a team's plans. For example, here in New England, fans were clamoring for the Pats to cut Matt Cassell during the pre-season because he was playing very poorly during games. However, Belicheck obviously knew something that the rest of us didn't because he stuck with him and we all know how that turned out. Obviously, this isn't possible in a text-sim.

I think the frustration sets in when GM's are facing teams with significantly inferior talent ratings-wise and still get beat handily. For example, if I have a team with a decent offense and a defense with veteran players rated primarily in the 50's and 60's and I'm facing an opposing QB rated 35 I should expect to win that game most of the time. Yes, there is the "any given Sunday" axiom to consider, but most days my team should prevail.

If teams with superior ratings talent-wise are getting consistently beaten by inferior teams, it speaks to either: a) poor game planning, b) a flaw in the game logic, or c) a combination of the two.
__________________
PFL - Indianapolis Colts (Commissioner)
WOOF - Delaware Chupacabras

Last edited by Shard77 : 03-02-2009 at 11:52 AM.
Shard77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2009, 01:13 PM   #37
beargrowlz
High School Varsity
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Georgia
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shard77 View Post
I agree this is true to an extent.

One thing to keep in mind is that, in FOF, we only have two primary factors with which to base our performance expectations: a player's bars and his statistics.

In RL, coaches can factor in how a player looks on the practice field and use that to determine how he fits into a team's plans. For example, here in New England, fans were clamoring for the Pats to cut Matt Cassell during the pre-season because he was playing very poorly during games. However, Belicheck obviously knew something that the rest of us didn't because he stuck with him and we all know how that turned out. Obviously, this isn't possible in a text-sim.

I think the frustration sets in when GM's are facing teams with significantly inferior talent ratings-wise and still get beat handily. For example, if I have a team with a decent offense and a defense with veteran players rated primarily in the 50's and 60's and I'm facing an opposing QB rated 35 I should expect to win that game most of the time. Yes, there is the "any given Sunday" axiom to consider, but most days my team should prevail.

If teams with superior ratings talent-wise are getting consistently beaten by inferior teams, it speaks to either: a) poor game planning, b) a flaw in the game logic, or c) a combination of the two.

I agree with Hammer entirely. We're all guilty of this - myself included - as you sit there and wonder why you're getting scorched on a particular day.

I think the difficulty here is two-fold in the fact that a) the complaints generally involve "one off" games - the "Any Given Sunday" concept - and that ratings can be misleading.

In the situation that started this discussion the team's defense in question was playing good pass defense over a series of games and had one bad game. Even a great pass defense is going to have a bad day sometimes because of dice rolls. When one of your corners is a 9 BnR and a 22 zone and your defense has been playing very well, the odds of you having a bad defensive day increase dramatically every game you play - the odds are just going to catch up to you.

Beyond that, all other things being equal (same quality team owner/gameplan/injuries/coaching staff etc), better teams should beat worse teams obviously. But the fewer games you take into account the more luck and less skill/talent level is involved. I don't mean to belabor the obvious - or maybe I do - but the more times you play the more times the better team should win - all other things being equal. But in one game? The randomness is just too prevalent.

And that's really what we're discussing when the problem is one bad pass defense day out of seven games.

The other thing that throws a wrench in the "most talented team" argument is that there are some 50 rated corners who really can't play pass defense. They get the overall ratings bump because of their run defense, their return or special teams skills, play diagnosis or because they excel in one coverage area - or a combination of that stuff.

Finally, teams that have cover players with mismatched pass defenses are worse than their overall ratings advantage would lead you to believe. Having a 60 rated corner that excels at m2m but stinks at BnR and a 60 rated corner that excels at BnR but stinks at m2m negates half your coverage on each play.

I'll be the first to admit that defensive game planning is not as intuitive as it should be and devising a pass coverage scheme with the limited insight into how they work mechanically is problematic at best. But I think most complaints can be attributed to just bad luck, being outcoached, having mismatched players, over-using coverages - a particular team not being as good as it's owner thinks it is - we all have blinders on when it comes to our own guys - or an opponent not being as bad as an owner thinks they are.

But ultimately one game tells me nothing because as Hammer - and Mick Jagger before him - said, "You can't always get what you want".



Cheers,
-Bear
__________________
-Beargrowlz

[email protected]
TCY Golden Scribe Winner - Bear Goes Home

"The measure of a man's real character is what he would do if he knew he would never be found out."
--Thomas B. Macaulay

Last edited by beargrowlz : 03-02-2009 at 01:18 PM.
beargrowlz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2009, 02:04 PM   #38
Yoda
High School Varsity
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Woodstock, GA
I think that some people are stuck in a 'Madden' state of mind. Where they average 35+ ppg and allow less than 10 per game.

One of the biggest flaws with FoF is a lack of documentation.

I'll admit, I do enjoy somewhat going in a figuring somethings out. On the other hand, there are somethings I feel that sould be documented.

One of the flaws in FoF, is that unlike the NFL, the defense doesn't get to match up.

In the NFL, if a 3rd WR comes on the field, the defense is allowed to substitute to match it. FoF doesn't account for this. Yes, in 4 and 5 WR situations, FoF will force you into Nickle/Dime coverages.

I would rather see it a choice, if the offense is in this formation/set these are the defenses I want to run.

Example, if the offense has 3 WR's, I always want to be in a nickle package.

But, as far as the current game goes, I think that it's harder for people to tell when a defense is working, as opposed to an offense working.

I found that until I started watching ALL my games, that I didn't have an idea of really what my defense was doing.
__________________
Championships Won
CCFL 2040
PFL 2015 2022 2026 2046
FFL 2013 2014 2015
RNFL 2014 2029
GMFL 2009
HFL 1983 1987 1990
TFL 1983
vNFL 2024
GML 2011
WOOF 2018
Yoda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2009, 03:41 PM   #39
Sef0r
n00b
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: New Zealand
I agree with you Yoda, the worse thing about this game defensively for me are:

Inability to set a particular Defensive formation to an offensive set, i.e. Nickle to match up to a 3WR set, 1 deep with safety in the box on 2TE or goalline sets.
The WLB blizting ALL THE TIME in the 3-4 defense should be an option.
Sef0r is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2009, 07:10 AM   #40
Higgs44
n00b
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Heres a problem I have.

Just had a pre season game in which I set my Defense to play a TON of pass defense, disregarding run defense. Granted i did not have all of my regulars in there, but still, what happened is just ridiculous.

24/25 240 yards 3 TDs

Again, most of my regulars were not in there, but come on. Im playing Pass defense and the opposing QBs only have 1 incompletion??? Its getting to joke status.
Higgs44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2009, 07:24 AM   #41
Ben E Lou
Morgado's Favorite Forum Fascist
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Greensboro, NC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben E Lou;1936776, in the first response to you in this thread.
2. My guess is that you're overdoing your pass expectation. If you do too much of any thing in FOF, you get hurt overall.
.
__________________
The media don't understand the kinds of problems and pressures 54 million come wit'!
Ben E Lou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2009, 07:28 AM   #42
Ben E Lou
Morgado's Favorite Forum Fascist
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Greensboro, NC
Dola:

I'm not 100% certain that expectation falls into "things not to do too much of," but I know that Jim himself clarified in one of the Q&As that overdoing some things on defense hurts you.
__________________
The media don't understand the kinds of problems and pressures 54 million come wit'!
Ben E Lou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2009, 08:41 AM   #43
Higgs44
n00b
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben E Lou View Post
.


How does that make any sense at all? If im looking for a Pass, and hes passing, how is that a bad thing?????

Its not like im looking for a run and hes throwing the ball. Im friggen expecting pass.

What your saying is, I should play 50/50 all game regardless of down and distance... according to you thats how you play correct defense.

Last edited by Higgs44 : 03-23-2009 at 08:43 AM.
Higgs44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2009, 08:44 AM   #44
Ben E Lou
Morgado's Favorite Forum Fascist
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Greensboro, NC
Solecismic Q & A: Offensive and Defensive Familiarity - Front Office Football Central
__________________
The media don't understand the kinds of problems and pressures 54 million come wit'!
Ben E Lou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2009, 09:27 AM   #45
Higgs44
n00b
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
according to my GP... my coverages fell within these answers. i did NOT have more than 40% of any coverage.

So again, I ask, if im guessing pass and hes passing, why is it so hard to stop???

If what your saying is I shouldnt be guessing correctly, then what i said is correct. Defense is not worth drafting. There are FAR more formations to run offensively than defensively, meaning the "familiar" message is far easier to see on defense and recognize for a OC. If its all about "tendancies", then its not worth it.

Last edited by Higgs44 : 03-23-2009 at 09:29 AM.
Higgs44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2009, 09:33 AM   #46
Ben E Lou
Morgado's Favorite Forum Fascist
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Greensboro, NC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Higgs44 View Post
according to my GP... my coverages fell within these answers. i did NOT have more than 40% of any coverage.

So again, I ask, if im guessing pass and hes passing, why is it so hard to stop???

If what your saying is I shouldnt be guessing correctly, then what i said is correct. Defense is not worth drafting. There are FAR more formations to run offensively than defensively, meaning the "familiar" message is far easier to see on defense and recognize for a OC. If its all about "tendancies", then its not worth it.

You may have missed this part:

Quote:
Yes, that's true, though not on quite as extensive a scale (maybe half the code, same concept). The offensive coordinator is looking at your pass coverage and defensive expectations (run, pass, aggressive) in various situations. The results are far less dramatic, never more than even the minimum level of what would generate a "familiar" message on offense. In the future, I see this giving more life to the play-by-play, but for now, it doesn't belong there.

Again, nothing for sure, but he certainly did lump in expectations there.

And I'd disagree about drafting. Defense (assuming you don't have big leads) is all about getting big red bars on that side of the ball, and not doign anything extreme in any direction with your game plan.
__________________
The media don't understand the kinds of problems and pressures 54 million come wit'!
Ben E Lou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2009, 09:47 AM   #47
Higgs44
n00b
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben E Lou View Post
You may have missed this part:



Again, nothing for sure, but he certainly did lump in expectations there.

And I'd disagree about drafting. Defense (assuming you don't have big leads) is all about getting big red bars on that side of the ball, and not doign anything extreme in any direction with your game plan.

I saw it... Ive never been one to go to extremes on aggressive settings, Ive fallen into the middle more, unless its an obvious passing situation, ie 3rd and 15 or so, then yeah, im gonna bump up aggressive passing D.

My Defenses tend to get more of the "expecting" messages, than the "aggressively expecting".
Higgs44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2009, 09:50 AM   #48
Ben E Lou
Morgado's Favorite Forum Fascist
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Greensboro, NC
I read that as *any* expectations, not just aggressive, and going back to what you said...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Higgs44 View Post
Heres a problem I have.

Just had a pre season game in which I set my Defense to play a TON of pass defense, disregarding run defense. Granted i did not have all of my regulars in there, but still, what happened is just ridiculous.

24/25 240 yards 3 TDs

Again, most of my regulars were not in there, but come on. Im playing Pass defense and the opposing QBs only have 1 incompletion??? Its getting to joke status.
...I would think that there's at least a chance that you got dinged because of your expectations being too heavily slanted in one direction.
__________________
The media don't understand the kinds of problems and pressures 54 million come wit'!
Ben E Lou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2009, 10:37 AM   #49
Higgs44
n00b
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
you would think, that it should take at least a half or so to recognize what im doing regardless? Instead get thumped from kickoff to end of game???

and by disregarding run d, im talking a 70-30 split on pass D to run D.
Higgs44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2009, 11:05 AM   #50
beargrowlz
High School Varsity
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Georgia
Quote:
Originally Posted by Higgs44 View Post
Heres a problem I have.

Just had a pre season game in which I set my Defense to play a TON of pass defense, disregarding run defense. Granted i did not have all of my regulars in there, but still, what happened is just ridiculous.

24/25 240 yards 3 TDs

Again, most of my regulars were not in there, but come on. Im playing Pass defense and the opposing QBs only have 1 incompletion??? Its getting to joke status.

Statistical aberration due to small sample size.



Cheers,
-Bear
__________________
-Beargrowlz

[email protected]
TCY Golden Scribe Winner - Bear Goes Home

"The measure of a man's real character is what he would do if he knew he would never be found out."
--Thomas B. Macaulay
beargrowlz is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:02 PM.



Powered by vBulletin Version 3.6.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2026, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.