Sad News on CNN Breaking News

John Galt · 03-31-2003, 04:19 PM

No details yet, but this is the headline:

U.S. soldiers fire into van carrying 13 women and children after it fails to stop at checkpoint, Central Command says. Seven found dead, two wounded. Details to come.

sachmo71 · 03-31-2003, 04:24 PM

That is indeed sad.

Tarkus · 03-31-2003, 04:26 PM

I guess suicide bombers kill Iraqi civilians as well as coalition forces.

Tarkus

JeeberD · 03-31-2003, 04:26 PM

Very sad, but they should have stopped...

Havok · 03-31-2003, 04:30 PM

Quote:

I guess suicide bombers kill Iraqi civilians as well as coalition forces.

Exactly

Craptacular · 03-31-2003, 04:35 PM

Fox News link to story

Fritz · 03-31-2003, 04:35 PM

Perhaps Saddam should give the bomber another medal....

Ksyrup · 03-31-2003, 04:42 PM

This is exactly what Iraq wanted.

Buzzbee · 03-31-2003, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ksyrup
This is exactly what Iraq wanted.

Which is, in my opinion, EXACTLY why it happened.

For those to lazy to click the link, here is an excerpt.

In the checkpoint shooting, Central Command said initial reports indicated the soldiers followed the rules of engagement to protect themselves. "In light of recent terrorist attacks by the Iraqi regime, the solders exercised considerable restraint to avoid the unnecessary loss of life," the statement said.

The soldiers involved were from the 3rd Infantry Division, the same unit that lost four soldiers at a checkpoint near Najaf Saturday when an Iraqi soldier dressed as a civilian detonated a car bomb.

The seven dead and two wounded on Monday were among 13 women and children in a van that approached the checkpoint but did not stop, according to the Central Command statement.

It said soldiers motioned for the driver to stop but were ignored. The soldiers then fired warning shots, which also were ignored. They then shot into the vehicle's engine, but the van continued moving toward the checkpoint, according to the statement.

Qwikshot · 03-31-2003, 05:07 PM

A shame but I'd rather the dead not be coalition forces.

Fritz · 03-31-2003, 05:08 PM

13 people? Dont they read the saftey restriction? That van should have only had 8 or 9 in it!

John Galt · 03-31-2003, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fritz
13 people? Dont they read the saftey restriction? That van should have only had 8 or 9 in it!

And just when I thought you couldn't be any more tasteless.

Fritz · 03-31-2003, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by John Galt
And just when I thought you couldn't be any more tasteless.

guilty as charged on that one

markprior22 · 03-31-2003, 05:16 PM

it is too bad this has to happen...but Iraq is not following ANY sort of "rules of engagement"

astralhaze · 03-31-2003, 05:28 PM

For the "it's too bad but what the fuck" crowd, no one here has suggested that coalition forces were in the wrong. The disclaimer is not neccessary. This is a tragedy as are all civilian casulties of war. No need to minimize it by defending coalition forces who are not being attacked.

JeeberD · 03-31-2003, 05:32 PM

So are troops supposed to wait for vehicles to blow up before they try and stop them?

astralhaze · 03-31-2003, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JeeberD
So are troops supposed to wait for vehicles to blow up before they try and stop them?

No. No one here even mentioned that coalition forces were in the wrong. No one.

JeeberD · 03-31-2003, 05:36 PM

OK, misread your first post. Gotcha...

CAsterling · 03-31-2003, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fritz
guilty as charged on that one

Maybe, but still funny

DeToxRox · 03-31-2003, 05:39 PM

lol, Fritz.

FBPro · 03-31-2003, 05:43 PM

Hate to see civilians die, but in light of recent events I can't say that I blame them.

**edited for accuracy**

rexalllsc · 03-31-2003, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by FBPro
True they were "to some degree" wrong, but in light of recent events I can't say that I blame them.

Warning shots...no stop...more warning shots...no stop.

The only thing you CAN assume is that they don't have good intentions. Can't fault them at all.

Fritz · 03-31-2003, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by astralhaze
For the "it's too bad but what the fuck" crowd, no one here has suggested that coalition forces were in the wrong. The disclaimer is not neccessary. This is a tragedy as are all civilian casulties of war.

You are absolutely correct (save that one, you may not get it again from these parts.)

My initial reaction to John's post was colored by his previous disdain (my take, not John's words) for our soldiers.

Tarkus · 03-31-2003, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rexalllsc
Warning shots...no stop...more warning shots...no stop.

The only thing you CAN assume is that they don't have good intentions. Can't fault them at all.

Actually it was:

Signal to stop ... no stop ... warning shots ... no stop ... fire at the vehicles engine ... no stop.

Just wanted to add a little more detail to your point.

Tarkus

mrskippy · 03-31-2003, 06:24 PM

All I gotta say is ... it's about damned time!!!

I have no sympathy for these civilian casualties ... they didn't stop and failed to respond to multiple warning shots.

Everyone is playing up that it was women and children. Last I remember some of the Palestinian suicide bombers have been both women and children (17 year old girl for one).

In Vietnam both women and children had guns. Our naive American troops ignored them, got shot and my dad had to treat the foolishly wounded.

Just because they are women and children ... doesn't make them innocent. It makes them the perfect ones to perform the suicide missions.

Easy Mac · 03-31-2003, 06:30 PM

I don't think there are enough details yet to condemn either side.

How fast/far away was the car. Did it slow down after any of the shots? Did the people in the van know it was a coalition checkpoint, or were they fearful it was Iraqi troops who would kill deserters? And once they've shot your car, why stop, b/c you think they are trying to kill you.

And I am truly sickened by those who say at least it wasn't coalition forces who died. Personally, I don't want them to die either, but they made a conscious choice to put themselves in harms way. I pray they don't die, but it is their choice and I support them in any action they do if they feel it is right. Personally, I would have acted the same if in their situation, with a car not stopping. But the Iraqi civilians didn't ask to be born there. Do you think it matters if the dead are liberated?

Skippy you sicken me. This war is supposedly about preserving humanity. How can we preserve something that doesn't exist, especially after seeing comments like yours.

astralhaze · 03-31-2003, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mrskippy
All I gotta say is ... it's about damned time!!!

You are a very very sick person skippy. I don't see how anyone with any semblence of intelligence, morals, or humanity could actually be happy about something like this.

mrskippy · 03-31-2003, 06:41 PM

Easy Mac, astralhaze ... sorry, but in war you can't take chances. You have to assume that the people in the van were the enemy.

That is a rule of war! Especially, in this war!

Sure, I don't like to see innocent people die just like anybody else and it's sad that these people had to die. But they were asked to stop and given multiple warnings. At that point, they are at fault.

To put it another way ... if a cop tries to pull you over, you start going 100 mph, flip your car and die ... you're at fault.

These checkpoints are designed to protect the soldiers beyond that checkpoint. Are you saying, we should have let them pass?

That'd be a big gamble. That van, with women and children, could've been the big cover for a vehicle full of chemcial or biological agents or a dirty bomb.

And if they were just innocents ... would you be driving straight through a war zone???

astralhaze · 03-31-2003, 06:45 PM

Again, NO ONE said coalition forces were in the wrong. If you are really sad to see civilians die, please explain this quote....

"All I gotta say is ... it's about damned time!!!"

Sounds like you were glad to see this happen. In my opinion, that is, frankly, unfuckingbelievable.

ice4277 · 03-31-2003, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mrskippy
All I gotta say is ... it's about damned time!!!

I would defend the coalition forces for what they did but this is taking it too far.

mrskippy · 03-31-2003, 07:05 PM

What I meant by my quote is ... unlike in past instances

We didn't take any chances and didn't let our guard down. I was getting tired of hearing how are troops died, because we were too passive with civilians.

That's what I was trying to say. We took action against them, before they took action against us!!! That's what I'm trying to say.

Now do you understand???

In these situations were basically damned if we do damned if we don't. That's basically the sentiment I have for the whole war.

If we are aggressive and kill civilians, the Arabs will hate us.
If we are passive and civilians kill soldiers, Americans will cry foul because we didn't do anything to prevent it.

What would you rather do?

astralhaze · 03-31-2003, 07:06 PM

I don't often turn to insults in the place of argument, but you really are a moron.

mrskippy · 03-31-2003, 07:18 PM

So you justify letting vans pass through checkpoints unchecked? What would your attitude have been if that van went on through, unchecked, than blew up unleashing chemcial, biologcial, radiological material on troops or even just blew up maming hundreds?

Are you willing to risk lives like that? Because if so, that's really scary.

Can I ask where you work? Or what line of business your in? If it's a business that requires security, I want to inform your boss of your attitude toward a secure environment.

Do a Google search on Ayat Al-Akhras. Innocent civilian or terrorist? She looks like a beautiful young Arab woman, until you read the story.

astralhaze · 03-31-2003, 07:27 PM

Skippy skippy skippy. Find where anyone in this thread questioned the actions of the soldiers. Show it to me.

No one is questioning that. My question to you is why you are excited and happy to see these people killed.

GrantDawg · 03-31-2003, 07:32 PM

Kirby Puckett

mrskippy · 03-31-2003, 07:33 PM

Let me rephrase...

After the fact, based on what I know up to now, I'm not happy to see these people killed.

However, I'm happy though that the U.S. didn't take a chance and finally took action against a "potential" threat. They didn't do this over the weekend and four American soldiers were killed.

I was getting the impression though that people think we shouldn't have fired shots.

Of course, had these women had guns or a bomb in the van, I don't think anyone would be saddened by the deaths.

The fact that the driver was a woman and the van was full of women was suspicious and that's one reason they wanted to stop the van to check it out.

Easy Mac · 03-31-2003, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GrantDawg
Kirby Puckett

Hey, don't sully the good name of this thread

Craptacular · 03-31-2003, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by astralhaze
No need to minimize it by defending coalition forces who are not being attacked.

Astralhaze, as JeeberD can attest, I think that last statement hinted that you thought they were wrong, regardless of your disclaimer. At least that's the way I read it. Multiply that by the fact that John Galt started this thread, and you can see how some "pro-war", "anti-Saddam", whatever we're supposed to call them (and I'm part of that crowd) would assume people are blaming the military. Carry on.

mrskippy · 03-31-2003, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Craptacular
Astralhaze, as JeeberD can attest, I think that last statement hinted that you thought they were wrong, regardless of your disclaimer. At least that's the way I read it. Multiply that by the fact that John Galt started this thread, and you can see how some "pro-war", "anti-Saddam", whatever we're supposed to call them (and I'm part of that crowd) would assume people are blaming the military. Carry on.

What he said!!!

Qwikshot · 03-31-2003, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Easy Mac

And I am truly sickened by those who say at least it wasn't coalition forces who died. Personally, I don't want them to die either, but they made a conscious choice to put themselves in harms way.

So I guess they're supposed to get run over, blown up or killed. There job is to keep the area secure, they did everything within their power to do so, and finally had to fire on the vehicle.

They were ordered to go to Iraq, their job is to protect us. Like I said, better the Iraqis than the coalition forces UNLESS the coalition forces are committing war atrocities.

You can go puke now.

Easy Mac · 03-31-2003, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Qwikshot
So I guess they're supposed to get run over, blown up or killed. There job is to keep the area secure, they did everything within their power to do so, and finally had to fire on the vehicle.

They were ordered to go to Iraq, their job is to protect us. Like I said, better the Iraqis than the coalition forces UNLESS the coalition forces are committing war atrocities.

You can go puke now.

Isn't killing civilians considered a war atrocity?

AgPete · 03-31-2003, 08:15 PM

The civilian deaths are tragic but I'd just like to offer a prayer for our troops that have to deal with this. It's funny because this news reminds me of my mother. My step-father was a Navy Seal in Vietnam and to this day, is still dealing with a lot of issues from his wartime experiences. When I asked my mother about her opinion on the Iraqi war, being involved with her husband's issues and vet wives groups, her first comment was how worried she was for all the soldiers this war was going to screw up. You don't have to lose an arm or leg to have your life ruined by war. I think the memories of searching a van full of dead women and children just shot by you who may have just been too scared to stop will stick with someone for a long time. It's sad that this had to happen but there are going to be a lot more incidents like it by the time this war is over if Hussein is determined to fight with guerilla tactics and suicide bombers. It's sad how nobody really wins in a war, especially against a sicko like Hussein.

If the rumors are true that our military didn't fully anticipate the guerilla warfare campaign by Hussein, having the Brits and their experience with Northern Ireland will probably be a great benefit.

astralhaze · 03-31-2003, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Craptacular
Astralhaze, as JeeberD can attest, I think that last statement hinted that you thought they were wrong, regardless of your disclaimer. At least that's the way I read it. Multiply that by the fact that John Galt started this thread, and you can see how some "pro-war", "anti-Saddam", whatever we're supposed to call them (and I'm part of that crowd) would assume people are blaming the military. Carry on.

Yes, it was poor wording. I meant under attack from anyone in this thread. My bad.

Qwikshot · 03-31-2003, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Easy Mac
Isn't killing civilians considered a war atrocity?

Not when they are refusing to comply with an order e.g. slowing down a vehicle at a checkpoint, ignoring warning shots...

GoldenEagle · 03-31-2003, 08:17 PM

Dean Houston.

Tarkus · 03-31-2003, 08:18 PM

Not to pour fuel on the fire but an embedded Washington post reporter claims more civilians were killed and that the troops never fired warning shots. They were ordered but the order got there too late. That ought to make this discussion more interesting.

Tarkus

ice4277 · 03-31-2003, 08:21 PM

I think one thing that everybody has to realize is that, in a war, mistakes are going to happen. So, even if they didn't fire any warning shots, and its unfortunate that the civilians were killed, I wouldn't read any strong malice on the part of the U.S. troops into it. Negligence, perhaps, but not any undue malice.

Subby · 03-31-2003, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mrskippy
All I gotta say is ... it's about damned time!!!

I have no sympathy for these civilian casualties ... they didn't stop and failed to respond to multiple warning shots.

Everyone is playing up that it was women and children. Last I remember some of the Palestinian suicide bombers have been both women and children (17 year old girl for one).

In Vietnam both women and children had guns. Our naive American troops ignored them, got shot and my dad had to treat the foolishly wounded.

Just because they are women and children ... doesn't make them innocent. It makes them the perfect ones to perform the suicide missions.

I was looking for bits and pieces of this to quote, but the whole thing is such a stunning monument to dumbfuckery that I decided to keep it whole for posterity.

For someone who never misses an opportunity to espouse their commitment to the Christian faith, your quote is probably one of the more soulless pieces of crapola I have seen in a long time.

And all that backpeddling after the initial quote? Weak, weak, weak.

P.S. God told me that if there actually WAS a Hell you would be second in the Express line behind Jerry Falwell...

NoMyths · 03-31-2003, 09:51 PM

Mr. Skippy, if you're going to church this weekend, please take along a copy of your post. Show it to the priest/minister/pastor/rabbi/whatever and ask him what you need to do to repent for the thoughts that engendered it and for the guidance to remove that kind of darkness from your soul.

You're talking like the kind of person America is trying to save the world from, not for. I'm the kind of person who believes there should be good in anyone. Please, man -- you're not thinking right here.

Fritz · 03-31-2003, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Subby
P.S. God told me that if there actually WAS a Hell you would be second in the Express line behind Jerry Falwell...

God also told you to stuff an Almond Joy in your ear, smother your chest in vapor rub and cloves, and walk around in a grass skirt and bunny slippers.

Medication my friend, you must take your pills.

03-31-2003, 04:26 PM	#3
Tarkus High School Varsity Join Date: Jun 2001	I guess suicide bombers kill Iraqi civilians as well as coalition forces. Tarkus __________________ Winning may not be everything, but losing isn't anything.

03-31-2003, 04:26 PM	#4
JeeberD General Manager Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: The Town of Flower Mound	Very sad, but they should have stopped... __________________ UTEP Miners!!! I solemnly swear to never cheer for TO

03-31-2003, 04:35 PM	#7
Fritz Lethargic Hooligan Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: hello kitty found my wallet at a big tent revival and returned it with all the cash missing	Perhaps Saddam should give the bomber another medal.... __________________ donkey, donkey, walk a little faster

03-31-2003, 04:42 PM	#8
Ksyrup This guy has posted so much, his fingers are about to fall off. Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: In Absentia	This is exactly what Iraq wanted. __________________ M's pitcher Miguel Batista: "Now, I feel like I've had everything. I've talked pitching with Sandy Koufax, had Kenny G play for me. Maybe if I could have an interview with God, then I'd be served. I'd be complete."

03-31-2003, 05:07 PM	#10
Qwikshot Pro Starter Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: ...down the gravity well	A shame but I'd rather the dead not be coalition forces. __________________ "General Woundwort's body was never found. It could be that he still lives his fierce life somewhere else, but from that day on, mother rabbits would tell their kittens that if they did not do as they were told, the General would get them. Such was Woundwort's monument, and perhaps it would not have displeased him." Watership Down, Richard Adams

03-31-2003, 04:24 PM	#2
sachmo71 The boy who cried Trout Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: TX	That is indeed sad.

03-31-2003, 04:35 PM	#6
Craptacular College Starter Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: The Mad City, WI	Fox News link to story

03-31-2003, 05:08 PM	#11
Fritz Lethargic Hooligan Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: hello kitty found my wallet at a big tent revival and returned it with all the cash missing	13 people? Dont they read the saftey restriction? That van should have only had 8 or 9 in it! __________________ donkey, donkey, walk a little faster

03-31-2003, 05:16 PM	#14
markprior22 High School Varsity Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: springfield, il	it is too bad this has to happen...but Iraq is not following ANY sort of "rules of engagement"

03-31-2003, 05:28 PM	#15
astralhaze College Prospect Join Date: Dec 2002	For the "it's too bad but what the fuck" crowd, no one here has suggested that coalition forces were in the wrong. The disclaimer is not neccessary. This is a tragedy as are all civilian casulties of war. No need to minimize it by defending coalition forces who are not being attacked. __________________ I can understand Brutus at every meaning, but that parahraphy threw me for a loop. Last edited by astralhaze : 03-31-2003 at 05:28 PM.

03-31-2003, 05:32 PM	#16
JeeberD General Manager Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: The Town of Flower Mound	So are troops supposed to wait for vehicles to blow up before they try and stop them? __________________ UTEP Miners!!! I solemnly swear to never cheer for TO

03-31-2003, 05:36 PM	#18
JeeberD General Manager Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: The Town of Flower Mound	OK, misread your first post. Gotcha... __________________ UTEP Miners!!! I solemnly swear to never cheer for TO

03-31-2003, 05:39 PM	#20
DeToxRox Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Michigan	lol, Fritz.

03-31-2003, 05:43 PM	#21
FBPro College Starter Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: SE	Hate to see civilians die, but in light of recent events I can't say that I blame them. edited for accuracy __________________ GM RayCo Raiders-est. 2004-2012 Charter member of the IHOF-RayCo GM GM Tennessee Titans PFL 2011-2014 GM Tennessee Titans FOWL 2020-2025 Last edited by FBPro : 03-31-2003 at 07:55 PM.

03-31-2003, 06:24 PM	#25
mrskippy Banned Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: California	All I gotta say is ... it's about damned time!!! I have no sympathy for these civilian casualties ... they didn't stop and failed to respond to multiple warning shots. Everyone is playing up that it was women and children. Last I remember some of the Palestinian suicide bombers have been both women and children (17 year old girl for one). In Vietnam both women and children had guns. Our naive American troops ignored them, got shot and my dad had to treat the foolishly wounded. Just because they are women and children ... doesn't make them innocent. It makes them the perfect ones to perform the suicide missions.

03-31-2003, 06:30 PM	#26
Easy Mac Registered User Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Here	I don't think there are enough details yet to condemn either side. How fast/far away was the car. Did it slow down after any of the shots? Did the people in the van know it was a coalition checkpoint, or were they fearful it was Iraqi troops who would kill deserters? And once they've shot your car, why stop, b/c you think they are trying to kill you. And I am truly sickened by those who say at least it wasn't coalition forces who died. Personally, I don't want them to die either, but they made a conscious choice to put themselves in harms way. I pray they don't die, but it is their choice and I support them in any action they do if they feel it is right. Personally, I would have acted the same if in their situation, with a car not stopping. But the Iraqi civilians didn't ask to be born there. Do you think it matters if the dead are liberated? Skippy you sicken me. This war is supposedly about preserving humanity. How can we preserve something that doesn't exist, especially after seeing comments like yours.

03-31-2003, 06:41 PM	#28
mrskippy Banned Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: California	Easy Mac, astralhaze ... sorry, but in war you can't take chances. You have to assume that the people in the van were the enemy. That is a rule of war! Especially, in this war! Sure, I don't like to see innocent people die just like anybody else and it's sad that these people had to die. But they were asked to stop and given multiple warnings. At that point, they are at fault. To put it another way ... if a cop tries to pull you over, you start going 100 mph, flip your car and die ... you're at fault. These checkpoints are designed to protect the soldiers beyond that checkpoint. Are you saying, we should have let them pass? That'd be a big gamble. That van, with women and children, could've been the big cover for a vehicle full of chemcial or biological agents or a dirty bomb. And if they were just innocents ... would you be driving straight through a war zone???

03-31-2003, 06:45 PM	#29
astralhaze College Prospect Join Date: Dec 2002	Again, NO ONE said coalition forces were in the wrong. If you are really sad to see civilians die, please explain this quote.... "All I gotta say is ... it's about damned time!!!" Sounds like you were glad to see this happen. In my opinion, that is, frankly, unfuckingbelievable. __________________ I can understand Brutus at every meaning, but that parahraphy threw me for a loop.

03-31-2003, 07:05 PM	#31
mrskippy Banned Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: California	What I meant by my quote is ... unlike in past instances We didn't take any chances and didn't let our guard down. I was getting tired of hearing how are troops died, because we were too passive with civilians. That's what I was trying to say. We took action against them, before they took action against us!!! That's what I'm trying to say. Now do you understand??? In these situations were basically damned if we do damned if we don't. That's basically the sentiment I have for the whole war. If we are aggressive and kill civilians, the Arabs will hate us. If we are passive and civilians kill soldiers, Americans will cry foul because we didn't do anything to prevent it. What would you rather do?

03-31-2003, 07:06 PM	#32
astralhaze College Prospect Join Date: Dec 2002	I don't often turn to insults in the place of argument, but you really are a moron. __________________ I can understand Brutus at every meaning, but that parahraphy threw me for a loop.

03-31-2003, 07:18 PM	#33
mrskippy Banned Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: California	So you justify letting vans pass through checkpoints unchecked? What would your attitude have been if that van went on through, unchecked, than blew up unleashing chemcial, biologcial, radiological material on troops or even just blew up maming hundreds? Are you willing to risk lives like that? Because if so, that's really scary. Can I ask where you work? Or what line of business your in? If it's a business that requires security, I want to inform your boss of your attitude toward a secure environment. Do a Google search on Ayat Al-Akhras. Innocent civilian or terrorist? She looks like a beautiful young Arab woman, until you read the story.

03-31-2003, 07:27 PM	#34
astralhaze College Prospect Join Date: Dec 2002	Skippy skippy skippy. Find where anyone in this thread questioned the actions of the soldiers. Show it to me. No one is questioning that. My question to you is why you are excited and happy to see these people killed. __________________ I can understand Brutus at every meaning, but that parahraphy threw me for a loop.

03-31-2003, 07:32 PM	#35
GrantDawg World Champion Mis-speller Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Covington, Ga.	Kirby Puckett

03-31-2003, 07:33 PM	#36
mrskippy Banned Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: California	Let me rephrase... After the fact, based on what I know up to now, I'm not happy to see these people killed. However, I'm happy though that the U.S. didn't take a chance and finally took action against a "potential" threat. They didn't do this over the weekend and four American soldiers were killed. I was getting the impression though that people think we shouldn't have fired shots. Of course, had these women had guns or a bomb in the van, I don't think anyone would be saddened by the deaths. The fact that the driver was a woman and the van was full of women was suspicious and that's one reason they wanted to stop the van to check it out.

03-31-2003, 08:15 PM	#42
AgPete College Prospect Join Date: Jan 2001	The civilian deaths are tragic but I'd just like to offer a prayer for our troops that have to deal with this. It's funny because this news reminds me of my mother. My step-father was a Navy Seal in Vietnam and to this day, is still dealing with a lot of issues from his wartime experiences. When I asked my mother about her opinion on the Iraqi war, being involved with her husband's issues and vet wives groups, her first comment was how worried she was for all the soldiers this war was going to screw up. You don't have to lose an arm or leg to have your life ruined by war. I think the memories of searching a van full of dead women and children just shot by you who may have just been too scared to stop will stick with someone for a long time. It's sad that this had to happen but there are going to be a lot more incidents like it by the time this war is over if Hussein is determined to fight with guerilla tactics and suicide bombers. It's sad how nobody really wins in a war, especially against a sicko like Hussein. If the rumors are true that our military didn't fully anticipate the guerilla warfare campaign by Hussein, having the Brits and their experience with Northern Ireland will probably be a great benefit. __________________ Click here for the FOF2004 World Football League Dynasty (WFL) - Football Goes Global! OOTP5 Psychology Experiment (Incomplete but fun read for MLB fans.) The FOFC All-Time NFL Team - Voted on by FOFC members.

03-31-2003, 08:17 PM	#45
GoldenEagle Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Little Rock, AR	Dean Houston. __________________ Xbox 360 Gamer Tag: GoldenEagle014

03-31-2003, 08:18 PM	#46
Tarkus High School Varsity Join Date: Jun 2001	Not to pour fuel on the fire but an embedded Washington post reporter claims more civilians were killed and that the troops never fired warning shots. They were ordered but the order got there too late. That ought to make this discussion more interesting. Tarkus __________________ Winning may not be everything, but losing isn't anything.

03-31-2003, 08:21 PM	#47
ice4277 Pro Rookie Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Berkley, MI: The Hotbed of FOFC!	I think one thing that everybody has to realize is that, in a war, mistakes are going to happen. So, even if they didn't fire any warning shots, and its unfortunate that the civilians were killed, I wouldn't read any strong malice on the part of the U.S. troops into it. Negligence, perhaps, but not any undue malice.

03-31-2003, 09:51 PM	#49
NoMyths Poet in Residence Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Charleston, SC	Mr. Skippy, if you're going to church this weekend, please take along a copy of your post. Show it to the priest/minister/pastor/rabbi/whatever and ask him what you need to do to repent for the thoughts that engendered it and for the guidance to remove that kind of darkness from your soul. You're talking like the kind of person America is trying to save the world from, not for. I'm the kind of person who believes there should be good in anyone. Please, man -- you're not thinking right here.

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)