Is this an intended tell, a bug, or what?

Ben E Lou · 05-19-2009, 11:29 AM

I've had a small amount of success doing this in leagues, and thought I'd share to add to the collective body of knowledge. I'm also not convinced that it's not a plain ol' bug, either.

1. Sort by a specific category's current rating in the FA screen.
2. See rookie who appears to be a near-void in said category showing up much higher on the list than he belongs by his bars.
3. Sign him, thinking there might be a mask there.

I'm wondering if anyone else has noticed it and has teased out something more than I have. A great example just showed up in IHOF:

When I sorted the FA list by current kickoff distance, this guy showed up at like #4 or so. In need of a kicker anyway, I signed him. Now that he shows up on my roster, it's even more interesting. When I sort by kickoff distance for all kickers on rosters, he is slotted right between a guy who is a 40 and another guy who is a 43. Clearly, that 41 or 42 that FOF is giving me for him is above his blue-bar range. And again, that's *current*, not future.

I haven't found this to be the case in *all* situations, but it seems to me that a disproportionate number of guys with this anomaly turn out to be better than advertised.

Has anyone else noticed this, or have a take on it?

(TC is Thursday, so I'll update his bars in this thread probably during lunchtime.)

gstelmack · 05-19-2009, 11:32 AM

What does the guy look like post-TC? This looks like the sort is not taking into account the blue bars but rather the red bars you'll see once he gets through TC. In which case I'd argue bug in the sort screens.

chinaski · 05-19-2009, 11:35 AM

It would be interesting to see what this guy looks like by going to "Trade Information" pre-tc and right clicking him. Could we get screencaps of that and post tc?

Ben E Lou · 05-19-2009, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chinaski

It would be interesting to see what this guy looks like by going to "Trade Information" pre-tc and right clicking him. Could we get screencaps of that and post tc?

Heh. I had no idea about this. Here it is:

cuervo72 · 05-19-2009, 11:54 AM

Wow...I had no idea about that either.

Here's my 3rd round QB. I sure hope something happens in camp to get him off of those 0s, considering the understood bug/feature where guys who are on 0 never move from 0, no matter what the green says. If not, he's absolutely screwed.

chinaski · 05-19-2009, 11:54 AM

good stuff, it appears the sorting was dead on. This will surely help me in dominating FOWL

Ben E Lou · 05-19-2009, 11:59 AM

Well, this particular data point (the pre-camp red/green) is entirely new to me, so I'm not sure what to make of it just yet. I don't know what, if anything, it means.

gstelmack · 05-19-2009, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Well, this particular data point (the pre-camp red/green) is entirely new to me, so I'm not sure what to make of it just yet. I don't know what, if anything, it means.

That the screen got missed when the blue bars went in?

That chinaski has been holding out on us?

That once a guy is on your roster the blue bars should go away?

gstelmack · 05-19-2009, 12:07 PM

Oh, it also means the red bar is already well outside the blue bar and our scouts are even dummer than we thought they were...

Alan T · 05-19-2009, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chinaski

This will surely help me in dominating FOWL

Keep up the good work!

Chubby · 05-19-2009, 12:19 PM

innnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnteresting

Ben E Lou · 05-19-2009, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstelmack

That the screen got missed when the blue bars went in?

This is my guess at this point.

chinaski · 05-19-2009, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstelmack

Oh, it also means the red bar is already well outside the blue bar and our scouts are even dummer than we thought they were...

haha yes that too. I dont take much out of the trade information sneak peek (but it is very interesting to see), since this is all pre-tc, which can manipulate the player in many random ways. Im led to believe the trade sneak peek is a true view of the player without any scout involved, but thats just a gut feeling, probably wrong

Chubby · 05-19-2009, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chinaski

haha yes that too. I dont take much out of the trade information sneak peek (but it is very interesting to see), since this is all pre-tc, which can manipulate the player in many random ways. Im led to believe the trade sneak peek is a true view of the player without any scout involved, but thats just a gut feeling, probably wrong

It's wrong

I compared the players popup (doubleclick) playercard to the rightclick and they are the same for not fully developed players.

Chubby · 05-19-2009, 12:29 PM

The more interesting part (to me) is the search part...

Ben E Lou · 05-19-2009, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chubby

It's wrong

I compared the players popup (doubleclick) playercard to the rightclick and they are the same for not fully developed players.

...thus lending a little bit more credence to the theory that this is just a place where Jim forgot to apply the blue-bar mask for rookies.

Hammer · 05-19-2009, 12:31 PM

I have to confess I have been doing this for a while with UDFA's. I don't think its generally of massive use as the players combine will tend to mean you will have a good idea who will be at the top of the list. In this example though, its clearly more useful as its a no combine guy. As we are talking about UDFA's the players don't tend to be anything special as a rule, so I have never really fell upon a stud using this method.

I have always found RBs tougher to predict than most. I found a hole recognition sort for example, quite useful to up a half decent back.

Ben E Lou · 05-19-2009, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chubby

The more interesting part (to me) is the search part...

The search part I've known about for a while. This was an unusual case, though, where a rookie had a higher current bar than a bunch of veterans. Usually I'm comparing rookies to rookies and don't see anything as obvious as this one.

Chubby · 05-19-2009, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

...thus lending a little bit more credence to the theory that this is just a place where Jim forgot to apply the blue-bar mask for rookies.

Which isn't a big deal (IMO) since you can only see it if they are signed to a contract.

Chubby · 05-19-2009, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

The search part I've known about for a while. This was an unusual case, though, where a rookie had a higher current bar than a bunch of veterans. Usually I'm comparing rookies to rookies and don't see anything as obvious as this one.

Obviously search has to comapare SOMETHING, but thought it would be the scout prediction preTC rather than postTC value.

Chubby · 05-19-2009, 12:36 PM

now, can we use this to predict TC movement...

Chubby · 05-19-2009, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chubby

now, can we use this to predict TC movement...

which I'm seeing as a yes right now...

Ben E Lou · 05-19-2009, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chubby

Which isn't a big deal (IMO) since you can only see it if they are signed to a contract.

On the surface, I agree. However, I wouldn't be one bit surprised if, with a little observation of past players, you could use this to get a much more exact bead on where the bars of your players are headed, maybe even without TC.

Chubby · 05-19-2009, 12:38 PM

is there a tool to type in values for ratings to give you an overall rating? i.e. has anyone figured out how the overall rating is gotten to?

Ben E Lou · 05-19-2009, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chubby

Obviously search has to comapare SOMETHING, but thought it would be the scout prediction preTC rather than postTC value.

Right. That's what I would assume, too. I'm thinking that this is doing exactly that.

Chubby · 05-19-2009, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

On the surface, I agree. However, I wouldn't be one bit surprised if, with a little observation of past players, you could use this to get a much more exact bead on where the bars of your players are headed, maybe even without TC.

Which helps you how tho? You're going to see this with camp anyways...

Ben E Lou · 05-19-2009, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chubby

Which helps you how tho? You're going to see this with camp anyways...

If it *can* be divined, I can think of two very pretty obvious things to do with it immediately, and there are probably more...

1. Those 25/41 types who change very little in camp can still go significantly either way. But with extra data, you might be able to *know* what's happening with them immediately, so the one who's gonna just be a 39 gets cut immediately, instead of holding a spot for him for 2-3 years, and the one who's gonna be a 50 gets to play immediately.

2. Use every stage of FA2 to sign a buttload of players to no-bonus contracts and cut the ones who are gonna be useless. Depending on the makeup of your team and the rules of your league, you could cycle through as many as 100 rookies this way with no risk at all.

Chubby · 05-19-2009, 12:50 PM

I'm trying to look for position change benefits at the moment. I have to load up a SP career since I don't have Dewacht signed...

Ben E Lou · 05-19-2009, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chubby

I'm trying to look for position change benefits at the moment. I have to load up a SP career since I don't have Dewacht signed...

Heh. Now there's one I hadn't thought about, either. Do the pre-switch, look, and see what's there. If bad, do not export.

digamma · 05-19-2009, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

2. Use every stage of FA2 to sign a buttload of players to no-bonus contracts and cut the ones who are gonna be useless. Depending on the makeup of your team and the rules of your league, you could cycle through as many as 100 rookies this way with no risk at all.

This is what I was thinking.

Chubby · 05-19-2009, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Heh. Now there's one I hadn't thought about, either. Do the pre-switch, look, and see what's there. If bad, do not export.

Unsigned you can't trade them tho so they don't show on that screen...

RedKingGold · 05-19-2009, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Heh. Now there's one I hadn't thought about, either. Do the pre-switch, look, and see what's there. If bad, do not export.

Yup. This gives you an efficient look-in into the big play receiving bar.

Jughead Spock · 05-19-2009, 12:57 PM

hm. This could really take away that Christmas Eve feel of training camp, darn it.

Ben E Lou · 05-19-2009, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chubby

Unsigned you can't trade them tho so they don't show on that screen...

I'm talking about signed ones. It *might* (again, we don't know the true nature of it yet) be able to tell you whether or not you should switch one of your rookies pre-camp.

Ben E Lou · 05-19-2009, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jughead Spock

hm. This could really take away that Christmas Eve feel of training camp, darn it.

I doubt it. The more I think about it, the more I'm in the camp that this is very likely Jim having forgotten to apply the blue-bar fog of war *before* training camp. I'm thinking more and more about position switches...

Yoda · 05-19-2009, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hammer

I have to confess I have been doing this for a while with UDFA's. I don't think its generally of massive use as the players combine will tend to mean you will have a good idea who will be at the top of the list. In this example though, its clearly more useful as its a no combine guy. As we are talking about UDFA's the players don't tend to be anything special as a rule, so I have never really fell upon a stud using this method.

I have always found RBs tougher to predict than most. I found a hole recognition sort for example, quite useful to up a half decent back.

I have been doing this a while myself... the last year or so.

For backups I generally want specific bars, so in PDFA I would search for specific bars and noticed this, honestly never really thought that much of it.

cthomer5000 · 05-19-2009, 01:40 PM

to me the right-click thing is WAY more interesting... but back to the original point.

Ben, i think that's been 'known' to some degree for a while, though i think looking in the 'void' categories you're taking it a step farther than I ever had. I remember chatting with at least one IHOF owner in the past though about using the search by X rating feature to be able to sort of zero in on useful players by getting them to come up in conjunction with 2+ year guys. Obviously when you get them to fall between guys rated 50 and 55 in kickoff distance.... you know where there actual red or green lies.

Sef0r · 05-20-2009, 05:40 AM

Can someone give me a quick run down of this right click thing and the trade thing? Actually, I'm trying to understand what is being talked about aside from a rating that appears to be nothing actually being something when compared to veterans.

gstelmack · 05-20-2009, 10:11 AM

Go to the trade info screen and right-click a rookie on your roster. You'll see his red/green bars. Go to your roster and click him. You'll see blue bars.

Sef0r · 05-20-2009, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstelmack

Go to the trade info screen and right-click a rookie on your roster. You'll see his red/green bars. Go to your roster and click him. You'll see blue bars.

omg are you serious? lol, ftw, bling bling

TheMeat · 05-22-2009, 01:28 AM

Very Interesting, lets break the game so Jim makes us a new one!

Eaglesfan27 · 05-22-2009, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMeat

Very Interesting, lets break the game so Jim makes us a new one!

I think the game is broken in some areas and people are just shedding more light on it. Hopefully, Jim fixes a lot of these areas with the new one - out by September, plzkthx.

PilotMan · 05-27-2009, 07:49 PM

I think that this is just one area that got missed. The bars sure are not set in stone. They can change quite a bit after camp, especially for high volatility players.

aston217 · 03-12-2012, 09:16 AM

More gravedigging -- I don't know how I stumbled on this old thread but it's something I had been looking at and been meaning to comment on. Plus, I don't think enough people know about the right click trick, or the weird immediately unmasked bars phenomenon!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

...thus lending a little bit more credence to the theory that this is just a place where Jim forgot to apply the blue-bar mask for rookies.

What is weird is that this happens to a lot of bars, but not for all rookies. It just happens sometimes. I guess what you guys mean when you say Jim forgot something is, it is happening *all the time* for certain *types* of masks.

This seems to happen quite often for a number of bars, and I've been keeping a running list:
-Elusiveness
-INTs
-Endurance
-Get Downfield
-Man? (I can't remember or confirm right now)
-ST? (again, can't confirm)
-Kick Power (confirmed for Punters, not sure about K's)
-3rd down passing
-Kick Returning
-Hole Recognition

It may just be that it is possible for this to happen with any non-static bar, but I see this all the time with bars like Get Downfield and Endurance, and have never, ever seen it with say, Run Defense or Play Diag or the blocking skills bars, to name a few...

Note that a player can still go either way in camp and this doesn't have anything to do with camp movement. Yeah, I'm three years behind y'all, anyway...

Quote:

I think that this is just one area that got missed. The bars sure are not set in stone. They can change quite a bit after camp, especially for high volatility players.

This of course is not relevant here, as we are talking about pre-camp bar reveals.

MIJB#19 · 03-12-2012, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aston217

... and have never, ever seen it with say, Run Defense ...

I have and the difference was as large as the blue bar being 0-20ish and the pre camp run defense bar being 30/80ish.

Firefly · 03-13-2012, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

I have and the difference was as large as the blue bar being 0-20ish and the pre camp run defense bar being 30/80ish.

I can confirm a similar case with ST

05-19-2009, 11:32 AM	#2
gstelmack Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Cary, NC	What does the guy look like post-TC? This looks like the sort is not taking into account the blue bars but rather the red bars you'll see once he gets through TC. In which case I'd argue bug in the sort screens. __________________ -- Greg -- Author of various FOF utilities

05-19-2009, 11:35 AM	#3
chinaski College Prospect Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Portland, Oregon	It would be interesting to see what this guy looks like by going to "Trade Information" pre-tc and right clicking him. Could we get screencaps of that and post tc? __________________ CCFL - Buffalo Bills IHOF - Houston Mustangs GML - San Diego

05-19-2009, 11:54 AM	#6
chinaski College Prospect Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Portland, Oregon	good stuff, it appears the sorting was dead on. This will surely help me in dominating FOWL __________________ CCFL - Buffalo Bills IHOF - Houston Mustangs GML - San Diego

05-19-2009, 11:59 AM	#7
Ben E Lou Morgado's Favorite Forum Fascist Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Greensboro, NC	Well, this particular data point (the pre-camp red/green) is entirely new to me, so I'm not sure what to make of it just yet. I don't know what, if anything, it means. __________________ The media don't understand the kinds of problems and pressures 54 million come wit'!

05-19-2009, 12:07 PM	#9
gstelmack Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Cary, NC	Oh, it also means the red bar is already well outside the blue bar and our scouts are even dummer than we thought they were... __________________ -- Greg -- Author of various FOF utilities Last edited by gstelmack : 05-19-2009 at 12:08 PM.

05-19-2009, 12:19 PM	#11
Chubby Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Syracuse, NY	innnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnteresting

05-19-2009, 12:29 PM	#15
Chubby Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Syracuse, NY	The more interesting part (to me) is the search part...

05-19-2009, 12:31 PM	#17
Hammer College Prospect Join Date: Sep 2005	I have to confess I have been doing this for a while with UDFA's. I don't think its generally of massive use as the players combine will tend to mean you will have a good idea who will be at the top of the list. In this example though, its clearly more useful as its a no combine guy. As we are talking about UDFA's the players don't tend to be anything special as a rule, so I have never really fell upon a stud using this method. I have always found RBs tougher to predict than most. I found a hole recognition sort for example, quite useful to up a half decent back. Last edited by Hammer : 05-19-2009 at 12:31 PM.

05-19-2009, 12:36 PM	#21
Chubby Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Syracuse, NY	now, can we use this to predict TC movement...

05-19-2009, 12:38 PM	#24
Chubby Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Syracuse, NY	is there a tool to type in values for ratings to give you an overall rating? i.e. has anyone figured out how the overall rating is gotten to?

05-19-2009, 12:50 PM	#28
Chubby Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Syracuse, NY	I'm trying to look for position change benefits at the moment. I have to load up a SP career since I don't have Dewacht signed...

05-19-2009, 12:57 PM	#33
Jughead Spock High School Varsity Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Lowcountry, SC	hm. This could really take away that Christmas Eve feel of training camp, darn it.

05-20-2009, 05:40 AM	#38
Sef0r n00b Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: New Zealand	Can someone give me a quick run down of this right click thing and the trade thing? Actually, I'm trying to understand what is being talked about aside from a rating that appears to be nothing actually being something when compared to veterans.

05-20-2009, 10:11 AM	#39
gstelmack Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Cary, NC	Go to the trade info screen and right-click a rookie on your roster. You'll see his red/green bars. Go to your roster and click him. You'll see blue bars. __________________ -- Greg -- Author of various FOF utilities

05-22-2009, 01:28 AM	#41
TheMeat n00b Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Alberta	Very Interesting, lets break the game so Jim makes us a new one! __________________ Owner/GM/Head Coach and Towel Boy for the St. Louis Rams.of the FOWL Owner of the Green Bay Packers of the PFL. First Response Coordinator of Public Relations Disasters for the Balzac Ticklers of the FOOLX. (retired) Owner/GM of the soon to be awesome Fort Worth Fury of the IHOF

05-27-2009, 07:49 PM	#43
PilotMan Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Seven miles up	I think that this is just one area that got missed. The bars sure are not set in stone. They can change quite a bit after camp, especially for high volatility players. __________________ He's just like if Snow White was competitive, horny, and capable of beating the shit out of anyone that called her Pops.

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)