Shameless Self Promotion of My Economic Plight

[lungs]

Here is an article featuring my father and myself talking about the rough times we're having as dairy farmers. Thought some of you all may find it semi-interesting.

The Sauk County UW-Extension Office is considering organizing group support meetings for local farmers to help them cope with the emotional problems surrounding the protracted, precipitous drop in milk prices.

"So many farmers are just committing suicide now," UW-Extension Agriculture Agent Denise Brusveen said. "Luckily, I haven’t heard of any in Wisconsin yet, but it’s got a lot of us, especially in the extension, thinking of what we can do to support the farmers."

According to numbers compiled from various newspapers on The Wall Street Journal’s "Real Time Economics" blog July 29, 14 Colorado farmers and ranchers committed suicide last year — double the rate five years ago — Maine has reported at least three farmer suicides this year and in the last six months two California dairy farmers committed suicide.

By at least one rubric, this is the lowest milk prices have dropped nationally since 1978 — down nearly 50 percent from a year ago.

Many dairy farms are hemorrhaging money. The average dairy farm in the state is losing $100 per cow each month, according to the Wisconsin Farm Bureau Federation.

"One to two years ago a pregnant heifer was worth $2,500 and now a pregnant heifer is $1,500," Brusveen said. "It’s similar to the housing situation where people were paying big prices and now they’re trying to refinance, but it won’t even appraise at what they paid for it."

The situation is bad enough that merely offering the farmers financial advice no longer seems like enough.

"That’s only good for so long," Brusveen said. "Many are maxing out credit cards just to pay the bills, to keep on farming. The good news is they get to keep their jobs, the bad thing is they have to pay just to keep their jobs."

She said she had talks with people about setting up meetings for area farmers to get together and simply talk about their problems with each other.

"But farmers have a lot of pride and don’t necessarily want to talk about their struggles," Brusveen said.

However, right now she said the extension is considering all suggestions for offering farmers any kind of relief.

Hitting home

As he walked to one of his open-air cow stalls on his family farm in Honey Creek township, Dave Lundgren — who hopes to leave the dairy operation to his son some day — said it can be depressing milking his 400 cows knowing every month he’s losing between $50 and $100 per cow.

"The more you’re milking, the more you’re losing," said his son, Jon. "The (milk) price is well below the cost of production."

Dave said he borrowed money this year just to keep the farm open. He hopes he can hold onto his farm until the milk prices bounce back, but he’s burning through his family’s equity.

"I’ve been farming since 1966, but this is the worse I’ve seen it," Dave said. "We’ve been through some hard times, but this is definitely worse."

Lundgren said he used to organize area meetings of the farmers to swap information. He hasn’t done it recently, but he said most are in similar straits and don’t want to talk about their financial problems.

"It seems like we’re all in the same boat," Lundgren said. "The worst part of it is, if we do recover, that extra money that we borrowed has to be paid back. It’s not going to be over overnight."

Help is available

It’s dairy farmers and families in situations similar to the Lundgrens driving a surge in calls to the Wisconsin Farm Center’s hotline.

"I can tell you our financial calls are up about 100 percent from last year," said Paul Dietmann, Director of the farm center, who also lives in Prairie du Sac. "We’re getting about 150 calls a month from people who are in financial trouble. Right now, it’s almost all dairy producers that we’re getting calls from."

The farm center offers a variety of free programs to assist farmers and their families. Dietmann said when talking to the people who call the hotline, it often becomes clear the financial stress is bleeding into other areas of farmers’ lives.

"In talking to people on the phone, you can pick up depression, frustration," Dietmann said. "We’ve gotten calls from farm wives who are frightened about domestic abuse. We’ve gotten calls from someone who is angry, just angry at everyone, the state government, the federal government (about milk prices.)"

Dietmann said in these situations the farm center offers to send out vouchers that the farmer or the farmer’s family can use to pay for counseling.

"It’s clear the stress caused by the low milk prices is causing a strain on the farm families," Dietmann said.

All-time highs faded

Brusveen said the fallout of milk prices follows all-time highs reached last year.

"No one predicted prices this low for this long," Brusveen said. "Many farmers are good at saving when times are good for when times are bad, but I don’t th ink any farmers have saved enough money for what the situation we’re in is requiring."

The dramatic drop in prices can be attributed to what University of Wisconsin Professor of Agricultural and Applied Economics Brian Gould described as a "perfect storm."

"We’ve had a loss in the export of milk," Gould said. "Last year 11 percent of the country’s milk was exported and that’s been substantially reduced."

He said that combined with a world-wide recession, America’s excessive number of dairy cows has lead to a glut of milk and historically low prices.

Gould said he’s unsure how long the price of milk will remain low.

"They can’t go any lower," he said.

Reducing production

A national program called Cooperatives Working Together has paid farmers to slaughter more than 100,000 cows, potentially taking 2 billion pounds of American milk out of production.

On July 31, the U.S. Department of Agriculture announced it was raising the price it pays for milk and cheddar to lend some relief.

Brusveen said it’s hard to say if these are long-term solutions or simply stopgap measures.

However. both she and Dietmann said that the low milk prices are hitting some states harder than Wisconsin.

"It looks like toward the end of the year we should start to pull out of the current situation," Dietmann said. "Our state is actually probably better positioned than some states in the west and south."

He said Wisconsin could emerge from this stronger than other dairy states, but the ramifications will reverberate for years.

"Farmers are taking on additional debt to stay in business right now," Dietmann said. "We need to be thinking ahead about what’s going to happen when you’re adding an extra thousand dollars in debt per cow this year."

[Butter]

It was very interesting. Hang in there, hopefully things will turn around soon.

[DaddyTorgo]

Sounds rough. Are people pursuing different ways to potentially cut costs, things like grouping together to negotiate prices on supplies and then on milk sold out?

I'm no expert so I'm not sure what else can be done, but are things like that even considered, or is it more "every farmer for themself?"

I know you've talked about selling some milk locally to artisinal cheese-makers, hopefully that brings in a little cash. I wonder what else you could do (*wracking my brain*).

[lungs]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Sounds rough. Are people pursuing different ways to potentially cut costs, things like grouping together to negotiate prices on supplies and then on milk sold out?

That's been done for years through cooperatives. Our fuel is bought through a cooperative, for example. The problem is cooperatives can be just as shady as any other company, especially the large ones. Milk pricing is largely set on the Chicago Mercantile Exchange which can be subject to manipulation. Problem is there is no transparency in that regard. There are companies out there that are having a field day with these low prices *cough*Kraft*cough* and have the capability to manipulate things further.

I know you've talked about selling some milk locally to artisinal cheese-makers, hopefully that brings in a little cash. I wonder what else you could do (*wracking my brain*).

Honestly, there isn't anything that can be done at this point but to wait. We're in a good position because we've got plenty of land to leverage. Our banker has dozens of clients and he recently informed us that he had to pick out three farms that he would absolutely see through this situation and we are among those three. So we aren't even close to throwing in the towel.

As much as it is hurting right now, the industry will be better off in the long run. Lessons have been learned. This was something that needed to happen, but it doesn't make it any easier while dealing with it.

On the bright side, this is a perfect buy low opportunity for myself personally. My dad's retirement isn't going to the the dairy farm itself but all the land that he owns. So we're currently looking at having me buy out the dairy farm (the cows and equipment not the land) at a very discounted rate. Assuming things will turn around eventually, the value will rise. It's like buying a stock at it's lowest point, but the main difference is we know that the value will come back at some point. And I have complete control of my investment.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I sympathize with what you're dealing with. I do some contracting work for the USDA, so I'm aware of the situation. I saw a pretty good piece on CBS Evening News the other day about this very topic. No real good way to deal with it right now. Best of luck in holding on.

Both of my grandfathers lost their mid-Missouri farms during the 1980s when farming took a turn for the worst. It was a lot of fun when I was a kid to hang out on the farm. I know how much it killed them emotionally to lose their farms and something they had done for their whole life.

[DaddyTorgo]

i assumed it had been done via cooperative for most of the stuff, was just wondering if there were additional opportunities to buy things through more local cooperatives (feed, etc) that one could possibly look at in the "every penny helps" mindset.

good to hear that you all have plenty of land and will make it through, but it's got to be...scary/depressing.

[stevew]

The same type of stuff is really effecting the farmers in my county as well. Hopefully the market will equalize soon.

[SackAttack]

I've been trying to make sure the milk I buy is from local Wisconsin dairies. I dunno how much that helps when it's from one guy living on his own, but, it's what I can do.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

i assumed it had been done via cooperative for most of the stuff, was just wondering if there were additional opportunities to buy things through more local cooperatives (feed, etc) that one could possibly look at in the "every penny helps" mindset.

good to hear that you all have plenty of land and will make it through, but it's got to be...scary/depressing.

Buying feed is probably the biggest challenge right now. We and most others in Wisconsin grow our own alfalfa and corn. The problem for us right now is that we got our corn crop flooded last year and ran short. So we are buying corn from another farmer (not a dairy farmer, a cash crop farmer). This year is much better crop wise, as we've currently got a 500 day supply of alfalfa that we made ourselves and the corn crop is looking tremendous so long as a hail storm doesn't come along and wipe it out.

Supplements to the feed we put up are a tremendous cost right now. Supplements we use, for example are cotton seed, fish meal, and soy hulls. Some people are trying to cut corners in these areas to save money. Some feed mills have simply cut off the supply to some farmers. The big problem with cutting out the supplemental parts of the diet is that you can't simply turn the switch on and off. These are living, breathing animals we are talking about and cutting corners will simply shoot yourself in the foot in the long run. We've taken the stance that we need to continue feeding our animals as we always would. If we cut out some of the supplemental parts of the diet, we'd be losing production now and it would take at least another year and maybe two years to get that back. We want to be positioned well enough that when things turn around we are going full steam.

Also when you look at cutting corners in taking care of the animals you are playing with fire when it comes to animal welfare issues. Hoof care of the cow is another area where people are cutting corners and they are paying dearly for it. That's probably a big area where animal welfare is concerned. Not only will you have big losses in production for not maintaining a cow's feet, I think it's just plain old cruel to have your cows hobbling around with sore feet.

This is just a hard industry to cut costs in because you are essentially shooting yourself in the foot if you do. Labor is another area people think you could cut costs. But if I'm stuck doing the work of somebody else, I'll start neglecting other areas. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[SnDvls]

was an article in the Arizona Republic about this and local dairy men the other day too here.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by lungs

Buying feed is probably the biggest challenge right now. We and most others in Wisconsin grow our own alfalfa and corn. The problem for us right now is that we got our corn crop flooded last year and ran short. So we are buying corn from another farmer (not a dairy farmer, a cash crop farmer). This year is much better crop wise, as we've currently got a 500 day supply of alfalfa that we made ourselves and the corn crop is looking tremendous so long as a hail storm doesn't come along and wipe it out.

Supplements to the feed we put up are a tremendous cost right now. Supplements we use, for example are cotton seed, fish meal, and soy hulls. Some people are trying to cut corners in these areas to save money. Some feed mills have simply cut off the supply to some farmers. The big problem with cutting out the supplemental parts of the diet is that you can't simply turn the switch on and off. These are living, breathing animals we are talking about and cutting corners will simply shoot yourself in the foot in the long run. We've taken the stance that we need to continue feeding our animals as we always would. If we cut out some of the supplemental parts of the diet, we'd be losing production now and it would take at least another year and maybe two years to get that back. We want to be positioned well enough that when things turn around we are going full steam.

Also when you look at cutting corners in taking care of the animals you are playing with fire when it comes to animal welfare issues. Hoof care of the cow is another area where people are cutting corners and they are paying dearly for it. That's probably a big area where animal welfare is concerned. Not only will you have big losses in production for not maintaining a cow's feet, I think it's just plain old cruel to have your cows hobbling around with sore feet.

This is just a hard industry to cut costs in because you are essentially shooting yourself in the foot if you do. Labor is another area people think you could cut costs. But if I'm stuck doing the work of somebody else, I'll start neglecting other areas. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

What's the name of your dairy, lungs?

[lungs]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

What's the name of your dairy, lungs?

Lundgren Farms Inc.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by lungs

Lundgren Farms Inc.

Ah, down by Madison. I doubt the stores up here carry your products, but I'll keep my eye out next time I go shopping all the same.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by lungs

That's been done for years through cooperatives. Our fuel is bought through a cooperative, for example. The problem is cooperatives can be just as shady as any other company, especially the large ones. Milk pricing is largely set on the Chicago Mercantile Exchange which can be subject to manipulation. Problem is there is no transparency in that regard. There are companies out there that are having a field day with these low prices *cough*Kraft*cough* and have the capability to manipulate things further.

That really pisses me off. So many games being played out there and the average hard-working person gets fucked in the end.

[Daimyo]

I grew up on a farm and my family went through something similar with pigs in the late 90's. It got to be a vertical industry dominated by factory farms owned by the food companies that could manipulate the market to the point where it was impossible for a family farm to survive. I know at one point it cost more to raise a pig then the pig was worth in the end which sounds similar to where milk is now.

My family eventually sold off all their livestock and now get by just on crop farming.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

Ah, down by Madison. I doubt the stores up here carry your products, but I'll keep my eye out next time I go shopping all the same.

If you eat swiss cheese there is a good chance you've probably consumed something from my farm. We sell our milk to the largest swiss cheese maker in the United States who in turn sells the cheese to others that repackage it under a different name.

It's pretty hard to tell where and under what name my raw product ends up in the consumer's hands.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by Daimyo

I grew up on a farm and my family went through something similar with pigs in the late 90's. It got to be a vertical industry dominated by factory farms owned by the food companies that could manipulate the market to the point where it was impossible for a family farm to survive. I know at one point it cost more to raise a pig then the pig was worth in the end which sounds similar to where milk is now.

My family eventually sold off all their livestock and now get by just on crop farming.

I remember that. That was brutal too.

[RainMaker]

Quick question for you.

Have you ever considered packaging and selling your products direct to consumers? I'd imagine there is some way you can ship products like that without them spoiling (I've ordered meat and even live lobsters). A simple website and the marketing appeal of buying authentic Wisconsin cheese without the corporate crap and processing. Show on the site your farm, how you treat your animals, and how you do things the right way. There is a huge, growing market for organic and small farm products out there. I think there has to be some appeal for people to be able to buy some good cheese from an old fashioned Wisconsin farmer.

Just a thought.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by lungs

If you eat swiss cheese there is a good chance you've probably consumed something from my farm. We sell our milk to the largest swiss cheese maker in the United States who in turn sells the cheese to others that repackage it under a different name.

It's pretty hard to tell where and under what name my raw product ends up in the consumer's hands.

Every once in a while. Usually when I go to Subway.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Quick question for you.

Have you ever considered packaging and selling your products direct to consumers? I'd imagine there is some way you can ship products like that without them spoiling (I've ordered meat and even live lobsters). A simple website and the marketing appeal of buying authentic Wisconsin cheese without the corporate crap and processing. Show on the site your farm, how you treat your animals, and how you do things the right way. There is a huge, growing market for organic and small farm products out there. I think there has to be some appeal for people to be able to buy some good cheese from an old fashioned Wisconsin farmer.

Just a thought.

The thought has entered my mind at times. It'd be a lot more complicated than simply throwing together some products and starting to sell it. The product that leaves my farm is raw, as in unpasteurized and unhomogenized. Unfit for mass human consumption essentially. It'd take a large investment in equipment and buildings to create any capacity worth doing as anything other than a hobby. For the amount of milk we put out a day (4000 gallons), we'd still end up selling most of it to a traditional processor.

Here is an example of a farm in Wisconsin that has gone that route and they farm in a similar way to me (about double the size of me though). They do a damn good job at farming but I've heard rumblings that the cheese business has been a financial burden on them.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

Every once in a while. Usually when I go to Subway.

Then you certainly have. Our processor supplies Subway.

[SackAttack]

Cool!

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

That really pisses me off. So many games being played out there and the average hard-working person gets fucked in the end.

even as someone in the financial markets i agree. the commodities plays are really out of control and ridiculous

[stevew]

Start an ice cream company!

[Grammaticus]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

That really pisses me off. So many games being played out there and the average hard-working person gets fucked in the end.

Actually one could argue the average hard working person is enjoying the lower price of milk. I don't really follow milk prices, so I don't know if the low price is reflected at stores.


Anyway, I hope things work out for you Lungs. If I were in your shoes, I would probably not look to buy a milk farm when it is an industry that requires subsidizing to get by. But if it is what you love to do, I hope you suceed in the long run.

[SportsDino]

When banks can get a trillion in funny money whenever they cry to the Fed how do you think the average hard working American can compete with a commodity exchange game? They blew the price of oil up to near 150 a barrel and then down to under 40 in a span of a year, something that makes absolutely zero economic sense under any scenario other than a lot of fund money being shoved around one way or another.

I don't buy the Walmart style "well everyone else is paying a lower price" argument either. Once you collapse a market that is always to some degree on the margin, the big winners know they can pump up the price again later with reduced competition. Hell, this all probably coincides with the big boys wanting to cut labor left and right anyway... so why not engineer a price collapse, ride out the bad times, and then enter into a market cleared of a bunch of small timers when times are good (and naturally the prices spike back up). Sometimes I think the commodity exchanges are actually introducing an inefficiency in our economy, the whole point of the exchange is to more rapidly distribute these goods in a generic manner, but when you have people selling at a price that does not make sense at all for them (i.e. below cost) there is something horribly wrong. Even if everyone else is doing it.... everyone can be wrong sometimes.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by Grammaticus

Actually one could argue the average hard working person is enjoying the lower price of milk. I don't really follow milk prices, so I don't know if the low price is reflected at stores.

Nope. It went up in the store when the price was high, but never goes down to reflect the record low prices.

Anyway, I hope things work out for you Lungs. If I were in your shoes, I would probably not look to buy a milk farm when it is an industry that requires subsidizing to get by. But if it is what you love to do, I hope you suceed in the long run.

Subsidies are kind of a myth. Crops are where the subsidies are at, not milk. The subsidies we received this year did not even cover one month of production. Larger farmers it probably covered a few days worth. Smaller farmers, yes, it does stretch longer. I'll agree I'm not in favor of subsidies but I'm damn well going to take them when they are available. But they are a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things. If we were subsidized so heavily, you wouldn't see prices lower than they were in 1978 in 2009.

I'm not only buying the business because I love what I do, but I also do see a good opportunity. I have direct control of my investment (the cows). Sure, I'll have to ride out some roller coaster price swings. But in terms of value, I'm going to be buying at about the lowest point imaginable.

So in essence you are basically saying that nobody should really invest in agriculture because it is subsidized? If you love imported oil, you are going to love imported food.

[DaddyTorgo]

Lungs - wouldn't worry about Gram. Not sure why he decided to come in here and be a jerk.

[Subby]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Lungs - wouldn't worry about Gram. Not sure why he decided to come in here and be a jerk.

How is he being a jerk? Those were all things I was thinking as I was reading this thread. I doubt lungs wants a big pity party.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Lungs - wouldn't worry about Gram. Not sure why he decided to come in here and be a jerk.

I didn't take it as him being a jerk at all. He doesn't view it as being a sound investment, and I disagree mostly. I do agree it'd be a horrible investment for somebody that didn't know what the hell they are doing. But in my case, I've got the background and the knowledge that I'm pretty damn confident that I can make it work, and make it work well.

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by lungs

I do agree it'd be a horrible investment for somebody that didn't know what the hell they are doing.

C'mon.. they are cows. Feed them and pull on their nipples once and awhile. Can't be that hard.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by Mustang

C'mon.. they are cows. Feed them and pull on their nipples once and awhile. Can't be that hard.

Some farmers actually do think it's that easy

They are the ones going out of business right now.

[Subby]

What kind of alternate streams of revenue do you guys have? Or is it all dairy production?

[lungs]

Originally Posted by Subby

What kind of alternate streams of revenue do you guys have? Or is it all dairy production?

We sell male calves, but they go for like $35 a piece. We sell the used up cows for slaughter. If we have a good year for crops we'll sell some excess there. We used to sell growth hormone under the table to people that signed affidavits saying they would'nt use it

All those things don't add up to all that much compared to the milk production.

[Subby]

Have you ever thought of selling milk, cheese, etc. under your own banner?

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by Subby

Have you ever thought of selling milk, cheese, etc. under your own banner?

I'd imagine his start up costs to do that would be enormous.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by Mustang

I'd imagine his start up costs to do that would be enormous.

+1

I stated earlier in the thread that I know of a pretty large farm (about double the size of my own) that went into this and they allegedly barely break even marketing their own cheese.

Consider the startup costs, the marketing costs (competing with larger companies that pay for shelf space in stores).

That and I've got my hands full taking care of 800 cows and 8 full time employees. If I did choose to enter such a venture in the future it would have to basically be run by somebody else that knows what the hell they are doing.

[JeeberD]

Originally Posted by Subby

Have you ever thought of selling milk, cheese, etc. under your own banner?

Post #20, senor...

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Subby

How is he being a jerk? Those were all things I was thinking as I was reading this thread. I doubt lungs wants a big pity party.

idk - characterization rescinded. probably was just in a snarky mood when i read it

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

That really pisses me off. So many games being played out there and the average hard-working person gets fucked in the end.

I recently read The Informant by Kurt Eichenwald iirc. All about how Archer Daniels Midland (and others) were manipulating prices left and right across everything going to farms.

[stevew]

I think buying right now is definitely a good move. If your dad was to sell the farm to you in the future, you'd probably end up paying a much higher price. Or if he was to pass on, and left it to you in his will you'd be paying out the ass in taxes.

Now you can basically buy at the lowest valuation possible, it basically can't go much to any lower.

It seems to be a tremendous move on your part, and you're definitely seizing an opportunity.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

I recently read The Informant by Kurt Eichenwald iirc. All about how Archer Daniels Midland (and others) were manipulating prices left and right across everything going to farms.

Archer Daniels Midland - Price Fixer to the world

[Khorium]

I blame all the granolas who decided to start sipping soy milk lattes over the last 15 years.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Khorium

I blame all the granolas who decided to start sipping soy milk lattes over the last 15 years.

Why do people drink soy milk? I never understood it. Tastes like shit and is more expensive.

[Subby]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Why do people drink soy milk? I never understood it. Tastes like shit and is more expensive.

A lot of people believe that it is better for you than cow's milk.

8th Continent Light Vanilla soy milk is better than any milk I have ever tasted.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Why do people drink soy milk? I never understood it. Tastes like shit and is more expensive.

Why do people buy organic foods? Tastes worse, more expensive and usually no healthier.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Why do people drink soy milk? I never understood it. Tastes like shit and is more expensive.

One time I went into a convenience store and picked up a bottle of chocolate milk and went out to my car pulled off the cap and took a sip and literally gagged and spit it out. I thought it was rancid and then I took the time to look at the bottle and saw that it was soy milk. Definitely didn't trip my taste buds, but hey, to each their own.

[lungs]

Dola

For those trying brainstorm other revenue streams for myself, I've pretty much got one in mind but it's going to take several years to get to the point where I can get it going. What is it?

Cows!

Right now we only sell the old and used up cows for slaughter but what I'm thinking here is selling cows at the beginning of their productive life. The problem right now is that I have some issues to clean up with my own cows so that eventually I can have a surplus to sell.

And I'm developing a type of cow that isn't necessarily marketed very heavily right now. Most dairy cows are the black and white variety (Holstein). These produce the most milk in terms of volume. The problem with them is that they are also the largest and they eat the most. The Holstein population is inbred to the point where every single Holstein mating is like breeding first cousins. With that you have a whole plethora of problems associated to the health of the animal.

What I've been doing for the past six years is introducing different bloodlines from all over the world into my herd. A lot of the so-called experts called me a young hotshot idiot that would absolutely ruin my nice herd of inbred Holsteins in the long run. These experts are more concerned with how pretty a cow is than how profitable she is.

Six years later I'm feeling more than vindicated. Instead of having these 16-1800 pound monsters that milk themselves to death in three years, I've got smaller (12-1400 lbs.), healthier animals that produce the same amount of milk in terms of cheese yield as these big old inbred oxen Holstein.

The biggest problem with marketing this is the wrong perception throughout the industry that these animals are inferior. Fortunately, I've got the data to back up my claims and more people are becoming receptive to the idea of a population that isn't so damn inbred. So, I think I'm ahead of the eight ball in this regard, I just need to create a surplus of animals to create this revenue stream.

[SportsDino]

Like I said before, just because everyone does it, don't make it right. You seem to have an idea that makes common sense to me, hopefully you can turn it into a competitive advantage. I think innovation is a money maker, but you do need some luck (like not having your farm killed by moronic market manipulation by some monopoly driven megacorporation).

[DaddyTorgo]

i remember something like maybe you alluded to that in your FTB or something lungs. Sounds cool!