He deserves his own thread.....

[Schmidty]

The most exciting player I have ever watched in any sport, and that includes Jordan. Good Lord, I miss him.

[Greyroofoo]

At least this thread isn't about Jesus

[Sun Tzu]

Originally Posted by Greyroofoo

At least this thread isn't about Jesus

Amen

[Schmidty]

Even Jesus couldn't tackle Barry.

[stevew]

Barry Sanders is love. Emmit Smith is not.

[jeff061]

Originally Posted by HiFiRevival

You mean Barry "2 yard loss cause it's the playoffs" Sanders? Most overrated NFL player of the last 20 years. Great breakaway ability but I'll take the guy who runs primarily North-South over the scat back.

Not so much on a team that has no other discernible talent whatsoever. North-south doesn't work so well when you are surrounded by stiffs.

[stevew]

it sucks that he came when we were young and could not truly appreciate him. Like if the first girl you had sex with was Scarlett Johansen when you were 16. Probably will go the rest of our lives and never see another.

[Sun Tzu]

Originally Posted by HiFiRevival

You mean Barry "2 yard loss cause it's the playoffs" Sanders? Most overrated NFL player of the last 20 years. Great breakaway ability but I'll take the guy who runs primarily North-South over the scat back.

Barry Sanders and Tommy Dreamer are both, by far, the greatest ever.

Eat it.

[Tigercat]

Originally Posted by HiFiRevival

You mean Barry "2 yard loss cause it's the playoffs" Sanders? Most overrated NFL player of the last 20 years. Great breakaway ability but I'll take the guy who runs primarily North-South over the scat back.

Sanders went backwards and hesitated because he could. He had the instincts that he could have gotten 1500 yards going north and south more, but why do that when he could pull of the big runs? The Lions fortunes were not determined by Sander's lack of ability to get short yardage. The Lions lacked consistent QB play, they needed the Sanders who could make the big play. Those Lions QBs didn't look even worse because teams had to account for big play Sanders.

To assume that the lions would have been better off all those years if Sanders had the same yardage numbers only with a more consistent but less big play style is misguided and nothing but a gallon jug of haterade.

[azjoe_02]

Originally Posted by Tigercat

Sanders went backwards and hesitated because he could. He had the instincts that he could have gotten 1500 yards going north and south more, but why do that when he could pull of the big runs? The Lions fortunes were not determined by Sander's lack of ability to get short yardage. The Lions lacked consistent QB play, they needed the Sanders who could make the big play. Those Lions QBs didn't look even worse because teams had to account for big play Sanders.

To assume that the lions would have been better off all those years if Sanders had the same yardage numbers only with a more consistent but less big play style is misguided and nothing but a gallon jug of haterade.

Well said Tigercat, well said.

[JeeberDMack]

Originally Posted by stevew

Barry Sanders is love. Emmit Smith is not.

Emmitt's just THE MOTHERFUCKING MAN is all...

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by stevew

Barry Sanders is love. Emmit Smith is not.

You are wise, young man.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by JeeberDMack

Emmitt's just THE MOTHERFUCKING MAN is all...

^ This


A great player makes those around him better, I am a huge cowboy and Aikman fan, but I'd wager that if you take 22 off those cowboy teams that Troy never sees Canton.

Its funny how selective media forgets thet Lions signing big money Freee Agent OL talent year after year and it never equaling W's. And the WR corp wasn't exactly a bunch of stiffs either

[molson]

Kind of weird to remember how shocking Sanders' retirement was, when looking back, he was already 30 and coming off a down year. He probably would have been an ordinary player if he came back.

So I was never a fan of him blaming the Lions being bad for his retirement. It's kind of accepted as fact now that they were terrible. But there were a lot worse teams in the 90s. When was the last time a great player quit his sport because his team wasn't good enough?

[EagleFan]

Best in my lifetime. My favorite football player of all time.

Thanksgiving day isn't the same without him in a game.

[EagleFan]

Best in my lifetime. My favorite football player of all time.

Thanksgiving day isn't the same without him in a game.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by molson

So I was never a fan of him blaming the Lions being bad for his retirement. It's kind of accepted as fact now that they were terrible. But there were a lot worse teams in the 90s. When was the last time a great player quit his sport because his team wasn't good enough?

I don't think Barry quit because of the 'team' in terms of the specific players and talent surrounding him, so much as the culture of the organization in its entirety, and how he was being used....and for whatever it's worth, the head coach gave up & quit in the middle of the following season, mentally and physically exhausted, so it's not hard to imagine that something was seriously wrong with the team at that time, beyond even the usual Lions frustrations and tragi-comedy.

[judicial clerk]

Didn't Emmitt say Barry was better?

[Autumn]

Whether you'd prefer a different style back or not, Barry was an athletic talent on a level you very rarely see in any sport. He could do things which seemed to defy physics, and who wouldn't want to watch that?

[Ksyrup]

Unless I missed it, that video doesn't include the TB play where he is 1-on-1 with Lynch coming out of the backfield and completely jukes him out of his shorts before sprinting by for a 60-something-yard TD. Indefensible.

It's the play at 36 seconds in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NjIRwMQApI

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Unless I missed it, that video doesn't include the TB play where he is 1-on-1 with Lynch coming out of the backfield and completely jukes him out of his shorts before sprinting by for a 60-something-yard TD. Indefensible.

It's the play at 36 seconds in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NjIRwMQApI

They also missed the Lynch/Sanders encounter at 1:28 here.

[albionmoonlight]

Biggest sadness for me was him having to waste years of his prime stuck in the run n shoot with guys like Rodney Peete and Erik Kramer as QB.

I remember some quote from Mouse Davis or someone saying that once they got the passing game on track, Barry would be able to rush for 2,000 yards easily. OK. And if Spud Webb could have dunked from half court, then the Atlanta Hawks would have been really hard to defend. Doesn't mean that it was ever going to happen or that you should try to build a team around it.

[tarcone]

Sanders saw things on the field that 99.9% of the world would miss. I saw many north-south runs. He just tried to do a lot on the field. And sometimes it just didnt work. At that point the Lions didnt have a QB that could help.
Why get 3 yards, when you could 35?

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by stevew

Barry Sanders is love. Emmit Smith is not.

QFT

[cartman]

Answer me this:

If Barry's moves were out of this world, how come Emmitt has a DWTS crown while Barry doesn't?

[molson]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

I don't think Barry quit because of the 'team' in terms of the specific players and talent surrounding him, so much as the culture of the organization in its entirety, and how he was being used....and for whatever it's worth, the head coach gave up & quit in the middle of the following season, mentally and physically exhausted, so it's not hard to imagine that something was seriously wrong with the team at that time, beyond even the usual Lions frustrations and tragi-comedy.

The Lions were 8-8 and 9-7 the two years after Sanders retired.

They weren't a historically bad team. By Sanders' reasoning, he would have had to quit the sport if he ended up on any of about half of NFL teams.

[Noop]

He will never be better than Michael Jordan.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by molson

The Lions were 8-8 and 9-7 the two years after Sanders retired.

They weren't a historically bad team. By Sanders' reasoning, he would have had to quit the sport if he ended up on any of about half of NFL teams.

That was kind of the point of the post you quoted....despite whatever platitudes Sanders may have spouted after the fact about 'winning', I don't think it was about the talent, the stats or the wins. Let alone that they were 5-11 the year Barry quit, I don't think you can fault him for not knowing they would be 8-8 in his absence. Also despite their moderate achievements in the win column, note that under Ross'es command, the Lions offense went from an being ranked 2nd, to 14th, to 21st, to 27th, and still had won a single playoff game since 1958.

I don't think it's coincidence that head coach Bobby Ross also quit the team in the middle of what ended up being a winning 9-7 team, citing mental and physical exhaustion, and a team that had supposedly given up on him...a team which went on to do better in his immediate absence. Personally, I think it came down to the simple fact that Barry didn't like Bobby Ross, or Chuck Schmidt, and felt disrespected on and off the field, and basically just chose to quit because he didn't like his workplace environment. Not necessarily the most graceful exit for such an epic talent, but something I personally can't fault the man for....of course, my analysis is based on a fair bit of assumptions and make-believe, so your mileage may vary.

[Atocep]

Barry was the most entertaining player to ever play in the NFL. I don't think there's any dispute there.

He's also overrated. He led the league in rushes for a loss every year of his career and fumbled 41 times, which goes against everything advanced stats are telling us is important in football.

His O-Lines weren't as bad as people have made them out to be and the Lions really weren't any worse the 2 seasons after he left.

Great player, but not the greatest ever or even in the top 5 as far as running backs are concerned.

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Great player, but not the greatest ever or even in the top 5 as far as running backs are concerned.

To me, that's just a ridiculous statement. I can hear the arguments over whether Emmitt, Brown, or Payton was better, but to say that he isn't even in the top 5 is blatantly wrong. I suspect you would get very little support from most experts on that view.

[Eaglesfan27]

I'd agree that he is in top 5 RB's, but not the top. That goes to Emmitt for me (even though I couldn't stand the cowgirls.) However, Sanders was the most exciting RB.

[Noop]

Walter Payton
Jim Brown
Earl Campbell
OJ Simpson
Tony Dorsett
Eric Dickerson

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

To me, that's just a ridiculous statement. I can hear the arguments over whether Emmitt, Brown, or Payton was better, but to say that he isn't even in the top 5 is blatantly wrong. I suspect you would get very little support from most experts on that view.

IMO Payton, Smith, and Brown were clearly better players. After that you have a group of guys like Faulk, Dorsett, OJ, and Dickerson that Barry belongs in.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by Atocep

He's also overrated. He led the league in rushes for a loss every year of his career and fumbled 41 times, which goes against everything advanced stats are telling us is important in football.

Barry - 10 years, 41 fumbles
Payton - 13 years, 86 fumbles
Brown - 9 years, 57 fumbles


...in fact, I'd be surprised if there's a top back with anywhere near as few fumbles as Barry.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

Barry - 10 years, 41 fumbles
Payton - 13 years, 86 fumbles
Brown - 9 years, 57 fumbles


...in fact, I'd be surprised if there's a top back with anywhere near as few fumbles as Barry.

The fumbles might not be too bad. I was glancing at them. I wouldn't compare his fumbles to Payton or Brown, though. Different eras.

The most important thing in my statement is the carries for loss anyway. There's a reason the Lions couldn't get any consistency on offense and it started with Barry.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by stevew

Barry Sanders is love. Emmit Smith is not.

Yeah, but in a game that matters. I'd take Emmit over Barry most every time. I'd still throw Barry on a team of my choice every once in a while, just because he was undeniably awesome. Except when he wasn't.

I'm no Barry hater. I loved watching him in college, rooted for him to be allowed entry into the draft. I then drafted him as a rookie for my non-keeper fantasy team. It was only a few years later when I realized I didn't really mind going up against Barry in a fantasy situation, because while he was capable of putting up monster numbers, he was also very prone to have negative or at least negligible yards at halftime.

[larrymcg421]

I'm always amazed when we have these arguments that people just want to completely discount the talent surrounding a player when coming to these conclusions.

Are we really just going to blindly say Emmit was better and discount the obvious talent differences between the two teams? Yes, great players make players around them better, but you ain't turning Erik Kramer or Scott Mitchell into Troy Aikman.

And how about this stat? Top 10 Defenses..

Smith: 8 times
Sanders: 0 times

But yeah, the Lions real problem were Sanders 3 yard losses and not their shitty QB's or subpar defenses.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

I'm always amazed when we have these arguments that people just want to completely discount the talent surrounding a player when coming to these conclusions.

Are we really just going to blindly say Emmit was better and discount the obvious talent differences between the two teams? Yes, great players make players around them better, but you ain't turning Erik Kramer or Scott Mitchell into Troy Aikman.

And how about this stat? Top 10 Defenses..

Smith: 8 times
Sanders: 0 times

But yeah, the Lions real problem were Sanders 3 yard losses and not their shitty QB's or subpar defenses.

Look at how bad the Cowboys started the year when Emmitt held out. His running helped Troy immensely as well as the ball control helped that defense.

[path12]

I loved watching Sanders but I remember watching Payton. He's my number one.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

I'm always amazed when we have these arguments that people just want to completely discount the talent surrounding a player when coming to these conclusions.

An equally big problem is elevating a player to epic mythical levels because he was a great individual player on a poor team. A lot of the "what if's" that will come up in these conversations get pretty absurd. This is a bigger issue for careers tragically cut short(Len Bias immediately comes to mind), but it happens for great players on bad teams too, Sanders more than anyone else I can think of.

[remper]

Originally Posted by Atocep

The fumbles might not be too bad. I was glancing at them. I wouldn't compare his fumbles to Payton or Brown, though. Different eras.

The most important thing in my statement is the carries for loss anyway. There's a reason the Lions couldn't get any consistency on offense and it started with Barry.

How are Sanders's fumbles "different" that Payton's? Different era...?

Barry may have had some inconsistency, but he also could hit the home run any time he touched the ball. That highlight against the Bears gets me every time. Barry runs right into what looks like half the Bear's defense and somehow squirts away for the TD. I remember watching that game, and thinking no one evens comes close to this guy's talent.

I don't see the point of comparing Emmitt vs Barry, because their running styles were so different. But anyone trying to say that they had equivalent talent around them is just flat out wrong.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by remper

Barry may have had some inconsistency, but he also could hit the home run any time he touched the ball. That highlight against the Bears gets me every time. Barry runs right into what looks like half the Bear's defense and somehow squirts away for the TD. I remember watching that game, and thinking no one evens comes close to this guy's talent.

Consistency is far more valuable than the homerun threat that also loses yardage several times per game.

[Tigercat]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Consistency is far more valuable than the homerun threat that also loses yardage several times per game.

Not when you are needed to make big plays. A "consistent" RB needs a consistent QB when he only gets ~6 yards on 2 carries and it is 3rd and 4. (Which will happen plenty of times in a game with a "consistent" RB.)

Eddie George's production instead of Sanders, for example, would have made the Lions a far worse team than with Sanders.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Tigercat

Not when you are needed to make big plays. A "consistent" RB needs a consistent QB when he only gets ~6 yards on 2 carries and it is 3rd and 4. (Which will happen plenty of times in a game with a "consistent" RB.)

Eddie George's production instead of Sanders, for example, would have made the Lions a far worse team than with Sanders.

Yes, there was a huge drop off in the Lions' play with James Stewart at RB.

The Lions offense was hurt by the fact that they had no clue whether or not it'd be 2nd and 6 or 2nd and 13. Good defenses also did a good job keeping those homeruns from happening, which made Barry a bad RB to be depending on in the playoffs.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

Yeah, but in a game that matters. I'd take Emmit over Barry most every time. I'd still throw Barry on a team of my choice every once in a while, just because he was undeniably awesome. Except when he wasn't.

I'm no Barry hater. I loved watching him in college, rooted for him to be allowed entry into the draft. I then drafted him as a rookie for my non-keeper fantasy team. It was only a few years later when I realized I didn't really mind going up against Barry in a fantasy situation, because while he was capable of putting up monster numbers, he was also very prone to have negative or at least negligible yards at halftime.

I was just referring to post 2 where someone said the thread was about Jesus and playing on the obvious other huge ass thread about Allah.

[B & B]

If you are actually debating Barry vs. Emmitt, and you watched more than one season of each playing the position, and you dont believe that Barry>Emmitt, then you should stop watching sports. Alltogether.

Its not your thing.
Go watch the Kardashians show, or Twilight, err whatever.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Yes, there was a huge drop off in the Lions' play with James Stewart at RB.

James Stewart didn't join until 2000 (while Sanders last year was 98) and during his timeframe the Lions ranked 22nd, 26th, and 26th in points scored, all of which were their lowest rankings since 1988 (I don't think it's hard to figure out what happened after that season). Even if their offense had improved, I find it hard to believe that James Stewart and his 24th ranked DVOA could take credit for it, nor could Greg Hill and his 33rd ranked DVOA in 1999.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Axxon

They also missed the Lynch/Sanders encounter at 1:28 here.

*Goosebumps*

It's almost not fair to mention how hard Lynch hit without remembering that he is a converted LB.