I'm sick and tired of people telling me not to get upset.

[Toddzilla]

This is a general attitude of mine, and while it probably makes me an asshole, I'm not goingto apologize for it. Something specific happened today at my church - where I am the president - and I was and still am livid. Not to get too specific, our pledge campaign is coming up and for that I write a letter that gets mailed along with specific information from the pledge committee a letter from the minister, and a pledge form.

Today I got the letter. In it was my letter, nothing from either the pledge committee nor the minister, and a pledge form that includes a section for people to contribute to a fund which doesn't exist.

So I sent out a "WTF is going on here" email to a bunch of people who were directly or indirectly in charge of the pledge campaign. I want to know who authorized the mailing, why all of he components weren't there, who changed the form to include the non-existen fund, and so on.

Some of the people wrote back and told me to calm down, that email wasn't a proper medium to discuss this, that everyone is trying and we need to instead focus on how to mitigate the current situation and prevent it from happening again.

To which I want to reply "Fuck you". I'm angry that this got botched up so badly and I'm tired of having to make excuses and shoulder the blame for when things like this get screwed up so often. I'm not concerned so much about mitigating the disaster as I am about holding people accountable an making sure it doens't happen again. I have every right to be pissed off - I care very deeply what happens - if you're so offended by someone showing emotion, either don't fuck up so much or go volunteer someplace else. People who are really good at correcting mistakes are people who make alot of them. I want to be known for running a group of people that get things right, not having to make them right after they fail.

Yeah, I'm going to get pissed off when things that should have gone right get fucked up because off carelessness. I'm pissed and embarrassed and if these people aren't either, I don't want to work for them.

And what year is this? It's 2010, assholes, e-mail is the way things work. If you don't like it, tough shit.

{/rant}

[Lathum]

I had no idea churches had presidents.

[Mustang]

I wouldn't get upset about it.

[Noop]

Well. How was dinner?

[thesloppy]

I think if you screw something up as badly as it sounds like they did, someone should be A-OK with taking the responsibility.

....that said, you gotta admit there is certainly some irony to "fuck everybody at my church, and if you don't like it go volunteer somewhere else."

[Subby]

Pretty sure that you are going to be out on your ass after the mid-term elections.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Dude, don't blow a gasket.

(is that better?)

[Schmidty]

Sounds like you're totally overreacting, and are well on your way to having coronary problems at an early age.

Don't have a cow, man!!

[MacroGuru]

Dude...get upset...find out the feller who did it...tie his truck up to a tow truck...stick a stinky diaper in his air filter...tow the truck somewhere.

Then urinate all over the seat of his truck and then light it on fire!

Using the print out of the emails and letters as the kindling...

[JonInMiddleGA]

I'm reminded here of an exchange at work many years ago that went something like this

Employee to supervisor (me): You expect everybody to be perfect.
Supervisor (me) to employee: Not at all. I expect everybody to want to be.

That's a huge distinction that, sadly, I don't think all that many people understand or at least not instinctively. There's very little pride in most work anymore, often even less to be found when unpaid work.

If it's giving you this much upset, my (unsolicited) advice would be to walk away from the role. Failing that, try the ol' Serenity Prayer, because it doesn't sound like you've got the right talents/attitudes among the staff to unfuck things permanently so you're going to need to find a way to deal with it.

[stevew]

I get pissed when people act like everything is small stuff, and of course the lame ass "don't sweat the small stuff" motto. And I'm like, no motherfucker, the small stuff is worth sweating because eventually it'll become big stuff.

[Aylmar]

You really do get what you pay for, don't you?

[Suicane75]

SERENITY NOW!!!

[Sgran]

A few years back we had a situation on the plane similar to Adam Sandler in Anger Management. Basically, wife and i were travelling with our small daughters and asked to get moved to more appropriate seats. I'm pretty sure we were being reasonable yet firm, but the steward acted like we were causing a scene and said "see, you're yelling at me". At that point I could feel my blood begin to boil and had to stop myself from ripping his head off. It's funny how somebody telling you to calm down often makes you more angry than the original cause.

[Toddzilla]

Basically, I'm going to have a pow-wow with the main guy responsible, with whom I've been good friends for years, and tell him I"m going to rant and rave for about 5 minutes to just get all of my anger out, that none of it is personal, and when I'm done we can work on a plan to dig us out of this hole.

And then I'm going to talk to our minister and the head of our program council - the ones who really didn't like me getting angry - and tell them that I'm an emotional, passionate guy. I get very happy when things go right and I get upset when they go really wrong. I take a tremendous amount of pride in my church and being the president means everything that leadership does reflects back on me. The congregation chose me for those reasons, so you get the whole package.

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by MacroGuru

Dude...get upset...find out the feller who did it...tie his truck up to a tow truck...stick a stinky diaper in his air filter...tow the truck somewhere.
Then urinate all over the seat of his truck and then light it on fire!
Using the print out of the emails and letters as the kindling...

+1

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I'm reminded here of an exchange at work many years ago that went something like this
Employee to supervisor (me): You expect everybody to be perfect.
Supervisor (me) to employee: Not at all. I expect everybody to want to be.
That's a huge distinction that, sadly, I don't think all that many people understand or at least not instinctively. There's very little pride in most work anymore, often even less to be found when unpaid work.

If it's giving you this much upset, my (unsolicited) advice would be to walk away from the role. Failing that, try the ol' Serenity Prayer, because it doesn't sound like you've got the right talents/attitudes among the staff to unfuck things permanently so you're going to need to find a way to deal with it.

+10

Originally Posted by stevew

I get pissed when people act like everything is small stuff, and of course the lame ass "don't sweat the small stuff" motto. And I'm like, no motherfucker, the small stuff is worth sweating because eventually it'll become big stuff.

+1,000,000

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

SERENITY NOW!!!

I can't wait for the Airing of Grievances at Toddzilla's church!

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by stevew

I get pissed when people act like everything is small stuff, and of course the lame ass "don't sweat the small stuff" motto. And I'm like, no motherfucker, the small stuff is worth sweating because eventually it'll become big stuff.

I get pissed by people who see small stuff and want to act like it's the end of the freaking world (even moreso by people who act this way only about other people's small stuff). Especially when there are more important things (the real big stuff) to be worrying about and addressing.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

Basically, I'm going to have a pow-wow with the main guy responsible, with whom I've been good friends for years, and tell him I"m going to rant and rave for about 5 minutes to just get all of my anger out, that none of it is personal, and when I'm done we can work on a plan to dig us out of this hole.

And then I'm going to talk to our minister and the head of our program council - the ones who really didn't like me getting angry - and tell them that I'm an emotional, passionate guy. I get very happy when things go right and I get upset when they go really wrong. I take a tremendous amount of pride in my church and being the president means everything that leadership does reflects back on me. The congregation chose me for those reasons, so you get the whole package.

Good idea. And if the minister doesn't find this worthy of getting a little upset about, then it might be time to for a ministerial search commitee.

[lighthousekeeper]

[JPhillips]

Suspend them from Jesus for two weeks.

[Airhog]

I think its the wrong attitude to have. This is the same culture in place in hospitals, when someone makes a mistake you punish them for it, and tell others not to make the same mistake, rather than figuring out how to prevent the mistake from occurring.

People are human, mistakes will be make, we have to learn how to reduce the potential mistakes.

[molson]

The first time I read this it sounded like some kind of attempted church fraud. But it was just a typo? Be careful here. Even if you're getting all hot and bothered about people's reactions to you, everyone will see it as you getting all freaked out about a typo.

Edit: My father retired as a pastor early because of this kind of stuff. People seemingly freaking out over administrative issues.

[CraigSca]

What denomination church is this?

I'm going to second what thesloppy said.

[Matthean]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

I get pissed by people who see small stuff and want to act like it's the end of the freaking world (even moreso by people who act this way only about other people's small stuff). Especially when there are more important things (the real big stuff) to be worrying about and addressing.

Originally Posted by Airhog

I think its the wrong attitude to have. This is the same culture in place in hospitals, when someone makes a mistake you punish them for it, and tell others not to make the same mistake, rather than figuring out how to prevent the mistake from occurring.

People are human, mistakes will be make, we have to learn how to reduce the potential mistakes.

+infinity. I work with people who are like this and they drive me up a freaking wall. Being passionate is one thing. Using profanity in a church letter is something different. I honestly don't see how you should keep the position you are in. Did somebody screw up? Yes, maybe even multiple people, but it's completely uncalled for to lash out at co-workers like that. You have zero Biblical support to justify how you handled this. If I'm the pastor, I find out what went wrong, fix it the best I can, and have you admit your own mishandling in this with sending a response to all you e-mailed. If you don't, you no longer are president.

[Subby]

I don't know if you made this thread so you could vent or you wanted honest feedback, but knowing you from your posts I would say you are an intelligent guy and probably wanted the latter.

Excoriating others via email shows extremely poor leadership. A leader fixes the problem first, then investigates what went wrong. My guess is that your personality is probably more suited to support roles/back office stuff and that you probably don't have the personality to lead people.

[lordscarlet]

Originally Posted by Airhog

I think its the wrong attitude to have. This is the same culture in place in hospitals, when someone makes a mistake you punish them for it, and tell others not to make the same mistake, rather than figuring out how to prevent the mistake from occurring.

People are human, mistakes will be make, we have to learn how to reduce the potential mistakes.

Clearly you haven't been in an environment where all that happens is "fixing." At some point people need to be held accountable. We have huge issues in my job because people just try to fix things after they go wrong instead of not doing it wrong in the first place or holding people accountable for doing it wrong.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Subby

and that you probably don't have the personality to lead people.

I'd argue that he seems quite capable of leading people who actually give a damn about the quality of their work. Alas, not many of those around any more.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I'd argue that he seems quite capable of leading people who actually give a damn about the quality of their work. Alas, not many of those around any more.

"it's society's fault"

[Subby]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I'd argue that he seems quite capable of leading people who actually give a damn about the quality of their work. Alas, not many of those around any more.

Sure, but I would argue that it is a lot easier to pull off that type of leadership. Performance during a crisis is what defines good leadership and it sounds like that is where T-zilla came up short.

[JediKooter]

I think in any organization, there has to be accountability. Otherwise, something like this will happen again in the future.

[heybrad]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I'd argue that he seems quite capable of leading people who actually give a damn about the quality of their work. Alas, not many of those around any more.

Give me good people to lead and I'm a good leader?

[Neon_Chaos]

Captain Picard was a great leader. Not like that jerk, Kirk.

[Sun Tzu]

Make it so.

[Autumn]

I think to address what you meant to be your point, Toddzilla, I agree that some people can't deal with intense emotions, whether in other people or themselves. A lot of people are raised to think raising your voice, getting visibly upset, etc., are not okay. It's legitimate to express things in that way, but you have to know some people aren't going to know how to deal with it.

That said, clearly there are still ways to be over the top. Groups that are going to work together have to deal with this sort of stuff, and it's just a constant balance. It's definitely possible to be too aggressive, too belligerent, to offend or frighten people. You and they need to come to a shared place where they can recognize that you need to be able to express yourself, and that you can recognize that they need to feel safe and not harassed.

What you plan to do with your friend sounds like a great solution if he's okay with it. Groups really need to deal with things like conflict and communication styles, but usually don't. Really I don't think any of it has to do with the actual mistake made - there's always going to be things to upset you (anyone).

[molson]

Originally Posted by heybrad

Give me good people to lead and I'm a good leader?

More like give me people who don't need a leader and I'm a good leader.

[Daimyo]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

And what year is this? It's 2010, assholes, e-mail is the way things work. If you don't like it, tough shit.

Email is completely inappropriate for this type of communication.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I'm reminded here of an exchange at work many years ago that went something like this

Employee to supervisor (me): You expect everybody to be perfect.
Supervisor (me) to employee: Not at all. I expect everybody to want to be.

That's a huge distinction that, sadly, I don't think all that many people understand or at least not instinctively. There's very little pride in most work anymore, often even less to be found when unpaid work.

If it's giving you this much upset, my (unsolicited) advice would be to walk away from the role. Failing that, try the ol' Serenity Prayer, because it doesn't sound like you've got the right talents/attitudes among the staff to unfuck things permanently so you're going to need to find a way to deal with it.

I think that's a really strong point

[CraigSca]

I guess I just found the juxtaposition of "church leader" and f-bombs being bandied about a bit over the top. While none of us is infallible, you might want to make sure the message and teachings of your the church are indeed being received.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

Captain Picard was a great leader. Not like that jerk, Kirk.

BLASPHEMY! Burn the HERETIC!




Seriously though, I'm with Jon on this one. Everything the church leadership does reflects directly on the guy, if they fuck up it makes him look like an idiot.

My question is though: Did you require them to get your OK on whatever got sent out before teh mailing? Have these same people done this same job before?

If you asked for verification and they ignored you, scream away. If not, thats a mistake on your end. If they're new to this then you have to be a bit more lenient.

I'm still curious about this "non existant fund". Whats up with that?

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

I guess I just found the juxtaposition of "church leader" and f-bombs being bandied about a bit over the top. While none of us is infallible, you might want to make sure the message and teachings of your the church are indeed being received.

There are times to preach and there are times to yell, if this is as big a screw up as it seems, then its a time to yell, preaching can come later.

Its easier to beg forgiveness than permission.

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by Daimyo

Email is completely inappropriate for this type of communication.

+1

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Daimyo

Email is completely inappropriate for this type of communication.

Umm, no, its not. Its faster and more traceable than anything else. You email the initial problem, let people know you want to speak to them either by phone or in person to settle the problem and ask them to respond asap. It allows for accountability and helps eliminate duplicity in the workplace.

it doesn't matter if its a paying job or a volunteer one. People must be responsible for what they do.

Email isn't some high school com-link for preppy kids. Its the single most widely used medium for communication in the world. Anyone in a leadership position should be required to use it.

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Umm, no, its not. Its faster and more traceable than anything else.

Umm, yes it is. It's impersonal and lazy as hell. It's lame and does NOT show good leadership skills. It shows that you don't want to take the time and effort to talk to people face-to-face, and it's also kind of a weasley way of not having to face the problem head-on. The only way an email is appropriate in this situation, is to call together a meeting about the issue, and then discuss it in a way that all concerns can be aired out, and everyone is allowed to give their opinion/reaction to the situation.

Email in an important, potentially emergency situation like this is simply a cop-out.

[RendeR]

Did you not actually read anything past that sentence in my post?

A) its not an emergency, its just a major fuckup
B) I stated exactly what you did for when and why it should be used.
C) You cover ALL your bases when dealing with large scale problems, if for no other reason than to cover your ass when everyone looks for teh scapegoat. "yes, I did in fact contact them, here is the initial email, I received these responses along with phone calls and a face to face after that."

Stop shitting on the guy for doing something right when everyone else in his church seems not to be.

[thesloppy]

Impersonal or not, I would totally use email in a situation like this (well, assuming it was not an angry email to my church), at least as an initial contact. First, because this seems like an issue that stemmed at least partially from people acting individually and without accountability, and some sort of immediate group forum is obviously necessary, and secondarily because if they're all volunteers they may not have the ability to meet in the same place and time, in a timely manner. Lastly, email is focused and to the point, whereas a meeting of volunteers will eventually devolve into an argument about parking, every time.

[flere-imsaho]

I think the correct point is that attempting to "manage" this initially by email is going to be ineffective and may even be counter-productive and that most effective leaders would already know this.

[RendeR]

I think the real problem is that people are assuming that email was the only option used.

its just the first step.

After that you brown bag the idiots and get the bats out.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Stop shitting on the guy for doing something right when everyone else in his church seems not to be.

I hate to be negative here, but he's done little to address the root cause of the problem (people consistently not employing common sense and the results of this) and done much to simply reinforce that he's going to fly off the handle a lot.

If the volunteers in question are too incompetent to routinely produce good work, then he's going to have to develop an idiot-proof protocol that guarantees everything is appropriately checked (by him) before going out (since he can't just fire them).

If the volunteers are competent but simply didn't understand the details or have the full picture it's a) a further indictment on his leadership capabilities and b) further reinforcement for his volunteers to limit their interactions with him (which will presumably cause more problems - it may in fact have caused this problem).

Disclaimer: This is just based off of what I've read, which I'm sure isn't a 100% whole picture. I'm sure you're a great person in real life Todd, so please don't take this personally.

[ISiddiqui]

Seems strange for a church leader to act this angry and profanity laden. Jesus taught us to forgive easily (Matthew 18:22). I'm not saying be a pushover, but the way to handle it may have been to find out what the problem was in a more calm way and then deal with who caused the problem.