Sportsmanship in High School Football

[BishopMVP]

Interesting story developing up here - ISL foe says no to Lawrence Academy - BostonHerald.com

St. George’s School recently informed Lawrence Academy that its football team would not make the trek to Groton on Friday afternoon to face the defending ISL champions. “The bottom line is that we met with the headmaster and the decision was made not to play,” St. George’s athletic director and football coach John Mackay said. “As for the reasons why, you can draw your own conclusions.”

This is actually the prestigious private school league - Phillips Andover, Middlesex, Groton, etc - and more backround is available here - http://www.bostonherald.com/blogs/sp...nd-the-future/ Long story short, recruiting and "redshirting" (by having a player repeat a grade when they enter from the public school system) has never been illegal in the ISL, but it was only a few years ago that anyone really took advantage if it in football (it has been going on for years in hockey). This year's Lawrence Academy team has at least 4 19y/o BCS prospects (a couple are committed to Iowa) and 2-3 more D1 prospects. To make things even juicier they've allegedly been playing under a scoring cap imposed by the school President/AD.

In my opinion, if they disliked what Lawrence Academy and its coach was doing so much they could and should have addressed it in the offseason - it wouldn't even have been a big deal to me if St. George’s had informed LA they wouldn’t be playing them this season and given LA a chance to find a different opponent. By canceling the week of St. George's Coach/AD is giving a black eye to his school, his players and the ISL as a whole. He's putting a personal issue in front of what is best for the student-athletes (on both sides) - the cardinal sin of any coach.

[TroyF]

It's funny, two or three years ago I'd probably have agreed with every word you printed. Now? With the frightening data of concussions, hits to the head and long term injury effects? I would never let HS kids go up against players who were far bigger and more athletic than they are in football. I just wouldn't let it happen.

Maybe they should have dealt with it in the offseason, but when it comes to your last statement I think you are wrong. The best thing for his student athletes would to not put them in harms way to take a beating. Not in this day and age.

[Lathum]

I think Troy makes a lot of good points.

Canceling the game that week is shitty, but is you have 19 year old stud athletes pummeling 15 year old kids nothing good can come of that.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I think Troy makes a lot of good points.

Canceling the game that week is shitty, but is you have 19 year old stud athletes pummeling 15 year old kids nothing good can come of that.

As opposed to 18 y/o athletes pummeling 14-15 y/o kids, which happens every week in most states? Unless the 19 y/o have gone through a college-styled weight & training regimen & undergone the physical change that is so common for freshmen college athletes, the difference seems pretty minimal.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

As opposed to 18 y/o athletes pummeling 14-15 y/o kids, which happens every week in most states? Unless the 19 y/o have gone through a college-styled weight & training regimen & undergone the physical change that is so common for freshmen college athletes, the difference seems pretty minimal.

How many of those top tier BCS athletes does an average high school have?

From what I gathered this place seems more like a prep school for potential BCS caliber players. Kind of like the Oak Hill of football.

[digamma]

Having witnessed my share of HS football blowouts, most of those games are actually not that hard hitting. Teams playing at different speeds just doesn't lend itself to physical pummeling.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Lathum

How many of those top tier BCS athletes does an average high school have? From what I gathered this place seems more like a prep school for potential BCS caliber players. Kind of like the Oak Hill of football.

Let's see here ... the top prospects in Georgia

#1 (RB) plays for Carver-Columbus, who has outscored opp 176-9 going 5-0
#2 (6'5, 243 DE) Thomas Co Central, last two wins combined 75-6 score
#3 (6'5, 260 DE) Monroe Area unbeaten in 5, won 1st two 118-13
#4 (6'5, 255 TE) Valdosta unbeaten in 5, won 1st two 71-0

Get the idea? This sort of mismatch happens in multiple places every week, I'm just not seeing anything that unusual about it.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by digamma

Having witnessed my share of HS football blowouts, most of those games are actually not that hard hitting. Teams playing at different speeds just doesn't lend itself to physical pummeling.

This is my observation as well.

A situation similar to this occurred in Georgia in the late 80s. Brookstone (in Columbus) and Athens Academy were two private schools who used to open against one another every year. It was a long drive (3 1/2-ish hours) and a fun little rivalry between two perennial 5-5 type teams playing in Georga's smallest classification.

Then Mack Strong and company showed up at Brookstone. Brookstone went from a 5-5 team to a state power. They averaged over 50ppg in one 7-week stretch in 1987.

A couple of weeks after the 1987 game--a 46-0 Brookstone win that could have been much worse--the Athens Academy AD contacted the Brookstone AD and requested that the series be put on hold for a bit. (Unconfirmed rumors say that he actually said "until at least after Mack and Toby graduate." "Toby" was Toby Norwood, a 210-pound battering ram D1 kid who was Mack's blocking fullback.) Anyway, it's bolded above for emphasis: Brookstone was informed nearly a year in advance; plenty of time was given to make other plans.

[Lathum]

My understanding is the situation here is more like all 4 of those kids being on the same team. I may be wrong and certainly am no authority on high school football.

[TroyF]

I'm not being a sissy here and I understand that it goes on every week, I just don't think it's really what SHOULD be happening. I have a team full of 15-17 year olds and they are going up against a bunch of college aged players to get crushed? I just wouldn't feel comfortable letting that happen.

Maybe I am a sissy. I dunno.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Lathum

My understanding is the situation here is more like all 4 of those kids being on the same team. I may be wrong and certainly am no authority on high school football.

Oh, come on. It's the Northeast. No chance they're that good.


And really, Jon is right. There are teams in the powerhouse states (CAL/TX/GA/FL) that send 5 to 10 kids to D1 nearly every year. And at least in Georgia, it's not uncommon for loaded teams like that to face off against teams that are barely coached, have very little budget, and have 4 or 5 guys going both ways.

[Lathum]

I remember seeing Keith Elias torch my towns HS for 5 TDs and a million yards rushing his senior year before he went to Princeton and on to a cup of coffee in the NFL. And he was a fringe NFL player, I can only imagine what a Reggie Bush type would do.

[digamma]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Oh, come on. It's the Northeast. No chance they're that good.


And really, Jon is right. There are teams in the powerhouse states (CAL/TX/GA/FL) that send 5 to 10 kids to D1 nearly every year. And at least in Georgia, it's not uncommon for loaded teams like that to face off against teams that are barely coached, have very little budget, and have 4 or 5 guys going both ways.

I remember a Patrick Pass led Tucker team, which had at least 3 other D-1 recruits on it, playing a Druid Hills team that dressed a total of 17 people for the game. 17.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I remember seeing Keith Elias torch my towns HS for 5 TDs and a million yards rushing his senior year before he went to Princeton and on to a cup of coffee in the NFL. And he was a fringe NFL player, I can only imagine what a Reggie Bush type would do.

Well, the other factor here (going back to the injury argument) is that, frankly, the hits either aren't that hard, or are non-existent in these types of games. I remember a particular 70-0 rout where the opposition's defensive linemen weren't engaging the o-line at all. They just stood up and backpedaled a bit. Sometimes they'd gang-tackle the ball carrier after 10 yards or so, and sometimes he'd go all the way. But one thing was certain in that game: no one got hurt. I'm not sure anyone even got bruised.

[spleen1015]

I lost to Tiki and Ronde Barber in HS 79-0.

They ran all over us because they were fast as hell. I played OLB and I couldn't catch either one of them running a sweep even when I knew it was coming my way.

I think I touched Tiki once.

[TroyF]

Guess I stand corrected then. These new studies on concussions are really frightening me. I'll admit to being jumpy because of them.

[Logan]

I'm with you Troy. My kids won't be playing football. Call me a pussy all you want.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

I lost to Tiki and Ronde Barber in HS 79-0.

They ran all over us because they were fast as hell. I played OLB and I couldn't catch either one of them running a sweep even when I knew it was coming my way.

I think I touched Tiki once.

Heh.

3:20:50 pm [digamma]: i mean those blowout games might as well be flag football games
3:21:05 pm [digamma]: how many times did AA tackle a bigger stronger Mack Strong?
3:21:08 pm [digamma]: never?
3:31:04 pm [Ben E Lou]: heh

Yeah, that's perhaps the other reason that these types of games don't result in major injuries: on offense, the really fast guys go pretty much untouched. And on defense, the linebackers and safeties rarely get enough speed up to make a big hit because the DL guys are making nearly all the plays at the point of attack or tripping up the ball carrier for a loss.

Put it this way: I'm fairly sure that I've seen more 4-or-more TD wins than 3-point games in my time following high school football. It's just the nature of the beast. The talent is almost always unmatched. I'm also pretty certain that the great majority of season-ending injuries I've witnessed occurred in games between fairly evenly-matched squads. In fact, as I run down in my head the major injuries I've witnessed at games, I can only think of one that happened during a blowout: Andrew Childers got a completely freak ruptured spleen because he had mono and didn't know it, and happened to fall where the point of the football pushed upward and hit his spleen. And no, I haven't always been with the front-runners. I did YL at Osborne in Marietta from '91-'93. We were *terrible.* Plenty of blowouts there. The one major injury that happened to that team was during an overtime game in '93, I'm pretty sure.

[Ben E Lou]

And to be clear, I'm not dismissing the concussion stuff. I'm just suggesting that perhaps they're more likely to occur when on every play there's the chance that a 4.45 185-pound RB from Tucker will hit the hole and engage a 4.50 195-pound safety from Marist coming up to make the play, and the two will collide at full speed.

[digamma]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

And to be clear, I'm not dismissing the concussion stuff. I'm just suggesting that perhaps they're more likely to occur when on every play there's the chance that a 4.45 185-pound RB from Tucker will hit the hole and engage a 4.50 195-pound safety from Marist coming up to make the play, and the two will collide at full speed.

Yes. I actually typed a very similar sentence and deleted it from my original post.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I remember seeing Keith Elias torch my towns HS for 5 TDs and a million yards rushing his senior year before he went to Princeton and on to a cup of coffee in the NFL. And he was a fringe NFL player, I can only imagine what a Reggie Bush type would do.

Yeah, I saw him do the same to my HS--even just managing to tackle the guy sent cheers from the crowd. I got to see him do the same thing to my college two years later.

If I recall correctly, he had 1-A offers, but to play DB. He went to Princeton, in part, because he had a chance to stay at RB.

[Lathum]

I recall that as well.

Did you grow up in Jersey Klingerware?

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I recall that as well.

Did you grow up in Jersey Klingerware?

Yep, Toms River...

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

And to be clear, I'm not dismissing the concussion stuff.

Nor was that my intent either particularly. I simply didn't see where this was all that uncommon a scenario, and perhaps that I also didn't feel that the differential in prospects (nor even size & weight) made injuries any more likely to occur.

Heck, I've seen several blowouts this season myself & nothing more serious than a cramp. On the other hand my nephew's middle school team playing close games against teams that are generally the same size has seen two different kids airlifted to hospitals & another transported by ambulance.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

I think I touched Tiki once.

Post-game handshake?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

I lost to Tiki and Ronde Barber in HS 79-0.

They ran all over us because they were fast as hell. I played OLB and I couldn't catch either one of them running a sweep even when I knew it was coming my way.

I think I touched Tiki once.

I picked off a pass from Kurt Kittner. Mind you he also threw for over 400 yards against us and made a fool out of us in the secondary over and over.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Logan

I'm with you Troy. My kids won't be playing football. Call me a pussy all you want.

I wouldn't let the studies scare you. The rules and medical knowledge are starting to get better and I still don't see a lot of long term effects from these. There are certainly exceptions, but I'd say the overwhelming majority of young football players end up being perfectly fine.

When it comes to football, I sort of weigh the pros vs the cons. Yes there is an injury risk. But your kid will be much more likely to seriously injure himself in a car accident than anything that will happen on a football field. We have to remember that the game is so much slower at these levels.

He'll learn discipline and teamwork. I truly believe that making every kid play a year of some kind of football would benefit them greatly. Even if they suck, it forces you to show respect and have discipline. It's also a phenomenal physical activity that will keep most kids in great shape.

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by Logan

I'm with you Troy. My kids won't be playing football. Call me a pussy all you want.

Pussy

[JediKooter]

I think everyone has sacked Jay Cutler at least one time this season.

[cartman]

Worst sportsmanship I've seen in person at a high school game:

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...t.15896e8.html

Was my sophomore year, and we played Dallas Christian. All that article states is that he kicked a 67 yard field goal, not the events that led up to it.

The 67 yarder was kicked on the last play of the game. They won, final score 67-0. The QB actually ran back 6 or 7 yards to kneel down at the 50 and call a time out. That's when the kicker came out and made the kick. They stormed the field and carried the kicker off on their shoulders.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Post-game handshake?

:highfive:

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by Lathum

How many of those top tier BCS athletes does an average high school have?

To be fair, comparing it to the norm is not accurate either.

Take last years SC 4-A B16 state championship game.
Byrnes played Dorman with 14 D1 scholarship players on the field.
(I want to say 8 SEC players...)

I *think* the breakdown was 8-6....so in ever other game one team played there were 8 D1 prospects on the field.

On a personal note, I think this is a very puss like move. I graduated HS at 17, but was 16 my entire senior football season. I played 4 years of varsity, meaning as a freshman I was 13 and played against 19 year old players (In SC at the time, though it may have since changed I don't know, you could play at 19 provided you turned 19 after August 1st) give the kids the chance, thats what makes sports great...imagine the story these kids would have had if David wins...

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

imagine the story these kids would have had if David wins...

Or even if one David manages his own victory ... like the 160 pound OL who I just watch neutralize a 260 pound DL 1.5* prospect (more like a suspect after that game) for four quarters, including 4 long TD runs right at/through the higher rated Goliath.

[BishopMVP]

I would be more inclined to agree with TroyF (and the school has started giving safety concerns as the official rationale) if it wasn't patently obvious the coach was doing it to prove his own point.

St. George football coach and athletic director John Mackay informed Lawrence Academy that they would not be playing Friday. When pressed on the reasons, Mackay simply said that we could draw our own conclusion, then he chuckled.

This was a league that allegedly didn't even scout future opponents until about 10 years ago due to a "gentleman's agreement" between the coaches. The St. George's coach doesn't like the new style and has a particular vendetta against the LA coach (about whom there are some persistent rumors - such as paying parts of players tuition, etc).

I do love it from a different perspective - these schools recruit the shit out of our Lacrosse, Hockey and Soccer players, so hopefully the school presidents crack down across the board and stem that flow for at least a couple years.

Ben is almost certainly right about them not being that good nationally. They have a QB and WR going to Iowa, a RB to NC State, and at least 3 300+ Linemen with D1 interest/offers, but I'd guess they'd get smoked against any of the top 20 from Texas/Florida/Georgia.

[Glengoyne]

My father was quite an athlete in his day. Back in the early forties, he led his team to what would have been the "valley" championship for Central CA schools. At that time there were fewer divisions, meaning A, AA, AAA, etc.. His coach pulled the plug on the championship game, because his team was going to be going up against a much larger school. To put it into perspective, my father's school had maybe 100 students. Not his class, but his school. The team was scheduled to play a high school with almost 2000 students.

For years growing up, I didn't understand my father's defense of his coach's decision. It does make sense now though. The above is just an extension of the same decision. Albeit, the timing was all wrong, and it appears the coach had other axes to grind.