Customization

[Suicane75]

I know I'm probably beating my head against the wall here because Jim has made it pretty clearly that it's not in his plans, but jeez louise. I'm almost 100 years in and 1 team has moved, only because I moved them. And half the league is still playing in the same stadium they were when I started.

The game is just so static that it become almost monotonous. Season to season is still fun, don't get me wrong, and I really am enjoying playing the game. But it just seems that there is so much more life that could be brought to a league and careers, by allowing smaller league sizes, contraction, expansion. For all the talk of player interaction and personalities helping with immersion, I think having a league with it's own unique history could be just as important.

Just my .02

[Solecismic]

There's a small percentage who are absolutely passionate about this feature. Unfortunately, it carries a cost about equal to an entire development cycle.

If I did a new version and that was the only new feature, I'd be out of business.

It's not stubbornness or not liking the idea on my part. It's just a business decision. You made a big show after the chat in July about this and how you wouldn't buy the new product because of it. Yet...

I'm sorry league-size customization is not in there. It won't be in the next version if I ever get that opportunity, either. And I think the odds are zero that it will be in FOF9, though that's a long way from happening. It's simply too big to justify. It's something that has to be put into the design at the beginning, and paid attention to every step of the way. It makes AI ten times more difficult - and that's a huge part of this game.

So, I appreciate your input. I believe that it would add a lot for you. I'm sorry it's not going to happen. Given that you've been here ten years playing one game, I'm doing a decent job providing you even a tiny bit of enjoyment.

[Suicane75]

I don't think a single post is making a big show. But I get it.

[Subby]

Welcome to Ann Arbor.

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by Subby

Welcome to Ann Arbor.

[Solecismic]

I know. It's been a tough week and I feel like I've answered this complaint at least a dozen times. So when a whole new item starts up about it again, from someone who has already established he's really upset about it, it's frustrating.

It's hard to tell people they aren't going to get everything they want. I really try to listen to customers. I hope 7.0 and the new graphics show that I am listening. But whenever this particular issue comes up, it always leads to "Jim is stubborn, Jim doesn't listen..." It's always this particular feature. I don't want to lie to people. I think that's a poor long-term strategy.

[TRO]

Jim, I think the reason people want this particular feature so much is that it was once included in the game.

I also think you are underestimating the amount of people that do care about the feature. Is it a "must have" for many? No. But it is something that 2/3 of the distinct text sim buying groups do value.

Group 1 - Modern Day simmers. They just want an accurate representation of the current era of the sport. Nearly all of these players won't care about expansion options.

Group 2 - Historical simmers. They want to be able to recreate the history of the sport. As such, they value expansion more than most and it is close to a "must have" for these players more than any other. This group would also greatly value some sort of "league totals" or "era modifier" feature to be added to the game.

Group 3 - Fictional simmers. These players are a bit of a wild card in what they are looking for. Speaking personally as one, I value as much customization as the game can hold up to. If the engine can't handle "era modifiers" or expansion, so be it as long as the engine handles what it can well. That said, the additional options and customization helps the immersion factor exponentially. I want to get lost in the world and see it develop around me. I want to see the game develop a 2,500 yard runner or a return guy get 10 TDs in a year.

All in all, it amounts to the fact that most of us value your products and we are insatiable. Meaning, that when we have something good, it just makes us want more. So please, try not to look at these types of threads as bashing or complaining as much as they are feature requests. We wouldn't be begging for them if we didn't love the base game as much as we do.

[Ben E Lou]

Well, expansion (future only) was included. Custom league sizes were not. And expansion seemed to be pretty "hard-coded." IIRC, there were specific seasons in which expansion teams would appear, and specific divisions to which they were added. Expansion was very valuable for me as a fictional player to start with an empty team, and it was all I wanted/needed in this arena. But I think what Suicane (and most of the people who ask for this repeatedly) want is something entirely custom.

Reading between the lines of Jim's post, particularly zeroing in on this...

It's something that has to be put into the design at the beginning, and paid attention to every step of the way.

...it sounds like this is something that the code isn't set up to handle at all, and that therefore would require huge portions of the game to be rewritten. The minimal expansion that FOF had was in an EA version, and when Jim and EA parted ways, EA kept ownership of all of that code IIRC. Long-timers will remember that FOF was very obviously built not off of FOF3 (FOF2001 was it's name,) but off of TCY, which was the first post-EA Solecismic release. The interfaces of TCY and FOF4 were extremely similar, and in some places the 4.0 release had text that hadn't been removed from the college game. My guess is that whatever code base JG built to allow for the expansion in FOF2K1 was not rebuilt for TCY and therefore has never existed for FOF4/FOF5/FOF6/FOF7.

[Danny]

It's not a huge issue for me, but wing able to replay nfl history would be cool.

I think coding in having teams move and build stadiums more often wouldn't be too difficult? Also maybe a feature to be able to start a team with an expansion draft? This would replace one of the teams so the league structure would be te same

[Julio Riddols]

We can use Jim's game for what it is good at and continue enjoying the improvements to it, and I think we're about to get a game from FLC that might be able to tap into the areas Jim's game cannot. I'm excited about both and while I also want to see FOF become this ultimate football dream world, I totally understand how one man putting together a game that complex and still maintaining some semblance of realism would be very tough to do without tearing the guts out of the current product and building from scratch.. I don't think I would be adventurous enough to risk that personally. I'll just be stoked if eventually this game and any other worthy football sim get the audience they deserve.

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

I know. It's been a tough week and I feel like I've answered this complaint at least a dozen times. So when a whole new item starts up about it again, from someone who has already established he's really upset about it, it's frustrating.

It's hard to tell people they aren't going to get everything they want. I really try to listen to customers. I hope 7.0 and the new graphics show that I am listening. But whenever this particular issue comes up, it always leads to "Jim is stubborn, Jim doesn't listen..." It's always this particular feature. I don't want to lie to people. I think that's a poor long-term strategy.

The "big show" you referred to was 1 post, two sentences. I apologize for daring to bring up an issue I was seeing after buying and playing your game pretty non stop since it was released. If you actually read my post you'd see that the first issues I brought up were teams moving and getting new stadiums, things that have nothing to do with what you've said in the past in response to the customization question.

Maybe my 2nd paragraph was unnecessary in your eyes, but I made it pretty clear it was just my wishful thinking out loud and that I was enjoying playing the game very much. I had no idea my single post after the developers chat had stuck in your craw so much.

That being said, do you know what another poor long term strategy is? Mocking your customers for buying your game. You're right, I did say no customization pretty much killed it for me, and I meant it at the time. But when the game out and I decided to purchase it, most of that impulse came from a desire to support you as a developer, not because I was super excited about the game. I wont make that mistake again.

[nilodor]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

The "big show" you referred to was 1 post, two sentences. I apologize for daring to bring up an issue I was seeing after buying and playing your game pretty non stop since it was released. If you actually read my post you'd see that the first issues I brought up were teams moving and getting new stadiums, things that have nothing to do with what you've said in the past in response to the customization question.

Maybe my 2nd paragraph was unnecessary in your eyes, but I made it pretty clear it was just my wishful thinking out loud and that I was enjoying playing the game very much. I had no idea my single post after the developers chat had stuck in your craw so much.

That being said, do you know what another poor long term strategy is? Mocking your customers for buying your game. You're right, I did say no customization pretty much killed it for me, and I meant it at the time. But when the game out and I decided to purchase it, most of that impulse came from a desire to support you as a developer, not because I was super excited about the game. I wont make that mistake again.

I agree with you that the comments seemed a bit harsh and unnecessary. Re-read his post without the big show comment and it's a reasonable response. There have been a couple of posts like that, which, in my opinion, have seen fairly combative and unnecessary. For me I support the product because I like the product, I'm not necessarily sure I support the way some people have been responded to and I'm not very pleased about it.

[nilodor]

Dola: Don't get me wrong I'd love to see, if not customization, at least canned expansion, where the league evolves how the NFL did with regard to the number of teams. Every if this was hard coded I would consider it a huge improvement. I'm still happy enough with the rest of the product improvements to continue to be a customer if it never happens.

[chelm123456789]

Originally Posted by Julio Riddols

We can use Jim's game for what it is good at and continue enjoying the improvements to it, and I think we're about to get a game from FLC that might be able to tap into the areas Jim's game cannot. I'm excited about both and while I also want to see FOF become this ultimate football dream world, I totally understand how one man putting together a game that complex and still maintaining some semblance of realism would be very tough to do without tearing the guts out of the current product and building from scratch.. I don't think I would be adventurous enough to risk that personally. I'll just be stoked if eventually this game and any other worthy football sim get the audience they deserve.

Been lurking the forum here for a while looking to see how the Sim has been progressing. Now I see something about a Sim from FLC.......what is that?

[Solecismic]

Tone is very hard to read on the internet, and I in no way was mocking anyone.

Your message started with "I know I'm probably beating my head against the wall here because Jim has made it pretty clearly that it's not in his plans," and referred to the league size issue, which I have mentioned many times.

Yes, I have made it clear. It's not fun to see anger about this issue from the same people so many times. I don't like disappointing people. Saying that is in no way mocking people.

[Suicane75]

I completely understand your point. I guess my issue was, and maybe still is, what you see as anger. I'm certainly not angry, and I don't think my initial post conveyed anger. Which is what sort of set me off. I even waited a day after your response to post because I was pretty livid, I probably should have waited another day or so, heh.

I just got the impression that for whatever reason, my post from after the chat really stuck with you. I even went back to look at it when you characterized it as "a big show", and I was a bit baffled.

I fully realize that having people say negative things can hurt your bottom line, and that's a bigger deal than just two people arguing about things that don't really affect either of them and for that I do sincerely apologize. It probably would have been a better thing to do in PM, but I felt dressed down in public so my better angels didn't really win out on that one.

I love your game, I've bought every version and I even ran a league for a long time. I'll likely keep buying them even if they don't have everything I personally want. Hell, I had been playing the game for about 5 hours straight when I made my initial post. And as I said, it certainly wasn't, nor was it meant to come across, as angry.

One thing is certain though, I definitely know not to bring up customization again.

[Solecismic]

I think you're right that this particular issue is one I've become too sensitive to. I appreciate your thoughts and I apologize for what, on reading again, I see could look like I was trying to mock you. That's not good customer relations.

[thrym]

I am NOT wanting to pile-on here...but I am one of the 'historical' nut types.

As was mentioned earlier in this thread, would there ever be a chance that we could get a historical 'module' for this? Call it an "Historical Expansion" I'd pay an additional $15 for the ability to start in 1970 with all future expansions hard-coded in.

Just wondering if that would be 'cost-effective' as a side project?

[Solecismic]

It's just not a simple addition. That even someone who cares a lot about it sees it as only worth an add-on price helps answer the question.

I've thought about something along those lines. Now if you make a business out of it and charge for more detailed player files the way some of the season sims worked (Pursue the Pennant Baseball was my favorite), I can see that being worth the investment. But that's a complete direction in and of itself. I won't rule that out, but if it happens, it's going to have to be in partnership with a group that owns and can provide historical data/ratings in a form I can use, and it would have to be a product rather than an add-on.

[thrym]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

It's just not a simple addition. That even someone who cares a lot about it sees it as only worth an add-on price helps answer the question.

I've thought about something along those lines. Now if you make a business out of it and charge for more detailed player files the way some of the season sims worked (Pursue the Pennant Baseball was my favorite), I can see that being worth the investment. But that's a complete direction in and of itself. I won't rule that out, but if it happens, it's going to have to be in partnership with a group that owns and can provide historical data/ratings in a form I can use, and it would have to be a product rather than an add-on.

Wow...sign me up! I worked LONG ago on some of the historical league files and the draft files(for the life of me I can't remember the "names" of the few other folks that worked on this, it was over 10yrs ago) and I am a stats freak! I have degrees in Writing AND History so I know how to research and document that info.

I would dearly love to work on a project like this...if only to add the statistical and historical perspective! I will bug you on occasion now