Rick Carlisle FIRED!!!

Abe Sargent · 05-31-2003, 04:00 AM

Honestly, what more could you do as a Head Coach? You are in your second year as a coach. Last year, you took a struggling team, installed a Defense First attitude alongside a Team First attitude and take your team deep into the playoffs. As a result of your coaching, you are the NBA Coach of the Year, have the Defensive MVP, and received tremendous accolades.

Year two, your team has the best record in the East, and makes it to the Eastern Conference Championships playing what most refer to as Old School teamwork basketball. No superstars, defying a formula for success that has been in place for a while now.

Two years, deep in the playoffs, an overachieving team, NBA Coach of the Year award. What more could the Pistons have wanted?

Maybe there is more info to the story, and we'll find out more, but for right now, I just have to wonder if this wasn't one of the Stupidest Coach Firings of All Time.

-Anxiety

Rich1033 · 05-31-2003, 04:12 AM

Wow, thats a shock. Dumars better already have the inside track on Brown or Van Gundy to make this move.

Actually even if he does I still dont agree with it.

daedalus · 05-31-2003, 04:59 AM

This doesn't make sense to me, either.

As much as everybody seems to love either Brown or Van Gundy, I don't know that they can do much more than Carlisle has done.

Blackadar · 05-31-2003, 06:41 AM

Bizarre. Too bad Buttercup's banned or he could give us an explanation.

oykib · 05-31-2003, 06:44 AM

I think that this is a black mark on Dumars and the ownership. They do have a chance to land a top flight coach now-- especially with Darko coming. But you can't fire guys after performances like the two year stretch Carlisle just took the Pistons through.

BreizhManu · 05-31-2003, 07:06 AM

read it on another board :

Quote:

Originally posted by Zigue at http://insiders3.ezboard.com/fdetroitpistonsfrm1

Here are a few reasons that we can speculate on:

Joe blamed coaching for our collapse against the Nets (who are not that much better than us) as well as our horrid start against Orlando.

Joe had philosophical disagreements with Carlisle over Curry starting and the pound the ball into the ground for 23 seconds offense that we ran.

Joe and Rick disagreed on Carmelo versus Darko

Rick was demanding an outrageous extension.

They are having disagreements over the future of the franchise, including trades on the table and other stuff that we will never know about.

Joe sees Brown, Gumby and Silas as much better coaches than Rick.

Rip and Chauncey did not like Carlisle's way.

Carlisle has less charisma than a deflated ball on the bottom rung of a rusted ball rack.

Just guesses. We shall find out in time.

oykib · 05-31-2003, 07:18 AM

But I thought that the point was results. If you look at that Detroit team's roster, do you see a 50-win, #1 seeded conference finalist?

Samdari · 05-31-2003, 07:56 AM

I just don't see how they thought anyone could get more out of that team. You think Dumars will try to lure Zeke away from the Pacers, or worse, Laimbeer from the WNBA?

TroyF · 05-31-2003, 10:14 AM

Unbelievable. This is one of the more bizzare firings I've ever seen. As has been mentioned, I think the guy got more from that group of players than anyone could reasonably suspect.

I find it hard to respect this decision.

TroyF

bigdawg2003 · 05-31-2003, 10:54 AM

Unbelievable. What the hell is Dumars smoking?

GrantDawg · 05-31-2003, 11:01 AM

I don't give a lick about basketball, but I heard about this on the radio. Someone is going to need to come up with a good explaination for this firing, or who in their right mind would take that job? You would have to think "win it all in one year or else be fired."

bigdawg2003 · 05-31-2003, 11:09 AM

Hopefully Carlisle will go to the Rockets and lead them to a finals win over Larry Brown's Pistons. I say Rockets because I want Carlisle to beat Brown while he's in Detroit, and that won't be more than five seasons. Of all the teams w/o a coach (minus Detroit), Houston will win sooner.

heybrad · 05-31-2003, 11:23 AM

I'd like to see him go to Philadelphia. Imagine him bringing the same type of defense to Philly and having Iverson on offense. Not a bad combo.

cmp · 05-31-2003, 11:30 AM

I think it's a good move for the Pistons. Carlisle didn't have as much to do with the success as you all think. Their defensive success was primarily because of assistant coach Kevin O'Neill. He implented the system and he ran it. And now O'Neill is possibly heading to Toronto as their new head coach. Carlisle is not good at developing young players. He didn't even play Tayshaun this year until they got to the playoffs, and even then he only played because Michael Curry got foul trouble in one the games. And now with Darko coming in I think Dumars had no confidence in Carlisle to develop him properly.

JPhillips · 05-31-2003, 12:08 PM

I think Dumars was programmed by Marc Vaughn!

Bishop · 05-31-2003, 12:10 PM

Pistons to name Brown as new coach Monday

http://espn.go.com/nba/news/2003/0531/1561343.html

bbor · 05-31-2003, 12:29 PM

Carlyle is coming to Toronto :d

He can take over another under achieving team

vtbub · 05-31-2003, 12:36 PM

Really a dumb move.

Real classy.

ice4277 · 05-31-2003, 12:49 PM

IMO this will be a good move. Carlisle was MUCH too inflexible with his coaching style, and was hell-bent throughout most of the season on not playing Tayshaun and Okur that much. The only reason Tayshaun broke into the lineup was becuase of injuries and Corliss Williamson playing like piss. The offense stagnated and he did little to try and change it. Carlisle was a good coach but, for me, he was never going to win a title here. I think Carlise would have had to change his strategies a bit too much for his liking. If you just look at the record, then yes, he did a good job, but you could also say the team would have been much better served by playing the youngsters more, winning less during the regular season, but giving them valuable experience come the playoffs. This move was not made for the past, it was made for the future.

ice4277 · 05-31-2003, 12:51 PM

Dola

Here's a link to a pretty good column discussing this. Or for those too lazy to click on the button:

AUBURN HILLS -- Larry Brown is the next coach of the Pistons.

The official announcement could come as early as Monday. And it only makes sense.

If you're going to fire a young coach in Rick Carlisle, which the Pistons did Saturday, you have to hire one of the top coaches in the NBA as his replacement.

Plus, you don't make this move unless you either have a guy already in place or you know for sure that you can secure your new coach quickly.

In this case, there will be no hiring process. You can't interview just any or everybody out there to fill the position. After all, Carlisle won 50 games in each of his first two seasons, won NBA Coach of the Year in his rookie season, captured two Central Division titles, had the best record in the Eastern Conference this season and took the Pistons to the conference finals before they were eliminated by the New Jersey Nets.

If you were going to hire Jeff Van Gundy, Paul Silas, Mike Dunleavy, Mike Fratello or John Calipari -- some of the available former NBA coaches out there -- you'd be better off keeping Carlisle.

That's why it has to be one of the following coaches: Phil Jackson, Pat Riley or Brown. And since Jackson, the Los Angeles Lakers coach, isn't available and neither is Riley, the Miami Heat coach and part-owner, the obvious choice is Brown.

Mark it down: Brown is the man.

Saying it was time for a "fresh look," Brown, 62, resigned as coach and vice president of basketball operations of the Philadelphia 76ers on Monday after six seasons.

Enshrined to the Basketball Hall of Fame in 2002, Brown is the only coach in NBA history to lead six different teams -- Nuggets, Pacers, Spurs, Nets, Clippers and the ABA's Carolina Cougars -- to the playoffs and has more than 1,000 victories in the ABA, NBA and college ranks.

Brown spent five seasons at Kansas, winning the NCAA college basketball championship in 1988. He also coached the UCLA Bruins for two seasons. You have to look at this the same way as when the Tigers fired Les Moss and replaced him with Sparky Anderson in 1979. At the time, Moss was 27-26. But the Tigers felt when you have a chance to upgrade with a proven winner, you do it.

You saw it again when the Red Wings replaced Bryan Murray as coach with Scotty Bowman. The Lions, in less of a degree, did it when they first said that Marty Mornhinweg was coming back as coach for his third season. A week or so later, when Steve Mariucci became available, the Lions dumped Mornhinweg and upgraded with Mooch. When you really think about it, it's not that shocking, that outside the box. Apparently, the Pistons felt the same way.

If you think that Carlisle was not retained because the Pistons were swept by the Nets or because Carlisle didn't play Tayshaun Prince during the regular season or that upper management didn't like the offense he ran, you're wrong.

This is clearly a move to upgrade. Brown isn't some Johnny-Come-Lately. In 31 years, Brown's resume is as impressive as any coach out there. The only knock on Brown is that he doesn't stay put long. The six years he spent with the 76ers was his longest stint anywhere.

But at his age, this appears as if it would be his final move. And there are a lot of reasons why Brown would covet this gig. There are no stars. Brown won't have to deal with the superstar problems he had with Allen Iverson in Philly.

It's a young, talented team. Brown prides himself as being a teacher of the game. And the Pistons are in position to make a run at a championship in the next couple of years. What a way to go out, with an NBA title.

Brown will, no doubt, get a five-year contract worth around $25 million. That's the going rate for top coaches in this league.

And the Pistons certainly have that now in Brown.

cmp · 05-31-2003, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by vtbub
Really a dumb move.

Real classy.

Almost all moves Dumars has made lately have been called dumb, but ended up being terrific moves.

Trading Stack for Rip.

Drafting Okur.

Drafting Prince.

Singing Billups to what people thought was too much money.

And the next move that people thought was stupid but will really be a genius move, firing Carlisle and hiring Brown.

Carlisle was lucky that Detroit made it to the ECF. We should have lost in the first round because of Carlisle's stubborness. The only reason Prince even started playing was because Curry got in foul trouble and they needed someone in there. Otherwise he would never had played Prince. He wouldn't take Robinson out the lineup even though it is clear that Robinson's best days are behind him and Okur is becoming a very good player.

CHEMICAL SOLDIER · 05-31-2003, 01:26 PM

Too bad for Rick ....I bet they would have fired him even if they had gone to the finals .

vtbub · 05-31-2003, 03:20 PM

Detroit actually has done some good things, they have taliored the team around their strengths and have succeded.

Hamilton for Stackhouse? You bet.

Prince? In a minute.

This isn't the Lions, a team going nowhere. This was a team on the up, with a tremendous draft pick, who probably would have gone that extra step, especially if the Nets lost kid.

I like Larry Brown. He was great with Kansas, he got a bum deal in Indy, and he helped Iverson become a better player.

Detroit, even if they are the best team in the east, are not in the same league as the West. Coaches learn from their mistakes, and Carlisle being a first time coach I'm sure made a few.

They aren't one or two pieces away from that title puzzle. Along with everybody else in the East, they are probably three or four years away. They should have stuck with Rick.

cmp · 05-31-2003, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by vtbub

Detroit, even if they are the best team in the east, are not in the same league as the West. Coaches learn from their mistakes, and Carlisle being a first time coach I'm sure made a few.

They aren't one or two pieces away from that title puzzle. Along with everybody else in the East, they are probably three or four years away. They should have stuck with Rick.

It matters how fast Darko develops. I think the three of fours away is probably about right for Detroit to win a championship. I feel they can beat anyone in the East until then though. If Darko turns into a superstar Detroit can be very very good in a few years. They would be able to compete with anyone.

vtbub · 05-31-2003, 03:31 PM

Then why go with a coach who, chances are, won't be there in three years?

cmp · 05-31-2003, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by vtbub
Then why go with a coach who, chances are, won't be there in three years?

One of the reasons would be so they can actually develop Darko. Carlisle has not been very good at developing young players. He never played Rodney White, right now we don't know how good he could have been. Tayshaun didn't even play until the playoffs. And him not playing much in the regular season showed in the Nets series. He didn't play Okur much until Rebraca was out with his irregular heartbeat problems.

And, this team was built on defense. But they had absolutely no offense. And now with assistant coach Kevin O'Neill probably leaving to Toronto their went their defense. O'Neill is the one who implented this defense and had this team play the type of defense they did. With him gone what would happen? They needed to go in a different direction and Dumars obviously thought Carlisle wouldn't be able to get the job done.

Schmidty · 05-31-2003, 05:25 PM

I trust Joe, but this decision could come back to bite the Pistons in the ass.

jetpunk2000 · 05-31-2003, 05:25 PM

When I first heard the news I was shocked. Now, it makes a bit more sense to me, but still not 100% sold on it. If Carlisle was really that bad with young players, then you probably won't find a better teacher than Brown. Now wouldn't it be something if Brown backs out of the deal? Given his track record, I don't tihnk that would be out of the question.

cmp · 05-31-2003, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jetpunk2000
Now wouldn't it be something if Brown backs out of the deal? Given his track record, I don't tihnk that would be out of the question.

That's the one thing I'm worried about right now. From what I've heard on different websites and on TV he's still deciding between the Pistons and the Rockets. If he goes to the Rockets then my opinion of the Carlisle firing changes completely. Because if your not going to get a guy like Brown to replace Carlisle, why fire him in the first place? If Brown does indeed come to Detroit then I like the move.

But I too trust Joe. The man has shown he knows what he's doing. So I wouldn't expect him to just go and fire a good coach without some good reasons.

jetpunk2000 · 05-31-2003, 05:34 PM

Quote:

That's the one thing I'm worried about right now. From what I've heard on different websites and on TV he's still deciding between the Pistons and the Rockets. If he goes to the Rockets then my opinion of the Carlisle firing changes completely. Because if your not going to get a guy like Brown to replace Carlisle, why fire him in the first place? If Brown does indeed come to Detroit then I like the move.

Well, what would be the option if he does end up with Houston? I know you've mentioned O'neill was supposedly the brains behind the operation. Was the whole staff fired, or would he be a back up to Brown?

Dr. Sak · 05-31-2003, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bishop
Pistons to name Brown as new coach Monday

http://espn.go.com/nba/news/2003/0531/1561343.html

I hope Larry Brown rots in hell...that fuckin bastard. I thought he was burnt out from coaching? Fuckin dick!

daedalus · 05-31-2003, 05:37 PM

Larry Brown develops young players?

cmp · 05-31-2003, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jetpunk2000
Well, what would be the option if he does end up with Houston? I know you've mentioned O'neill was supposedly the brains behind the operation. Was the whole staff fired, or would he be a back up to Brown?

I'm not that sure what would happen then. I would love to be able to have O'Neill as the head coach if the Brown deal fell out. I haven't heard any other possible candidates for the job other than Brown though.

ice4277 · 05-31-2003, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gold101
I'm not that sure what would happen then. I would love to be able to have O'Neill as the head coach if the Brown deal fell out. I haven't heard any other possible candidates for the job other than Brown though.

Yeah, but at the same time, it would be pointless to have fired a coach who has done what he has unless you know you are getting a better one in return. Anyways, the Pistons have scheduled a press conference for Monday, at which point they are expected to announce the new coach, so they must have him (whoever it is) lined up already. And if that's the case, I really can't see it being anybody other than Brown.

Schmidty · 05-31-2003, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by daedalus
Larry Brown develops young players?

His reputation is that he doesn't, but the fact that he was a great college coach tells me that he must be a very good teacher. That's the most important thing in my opinion.

Whoever comes in, Joe is going to strongly "recommend" that they play the young players, and bring them along smoothly.

I'll be interested to hear what local talk shows (like "The Huge Show") have to say about this whole situation on Monday.

Daimyo · 05-31-2003, 06:05 PM

Wow... Maybe the Pacers can finally correct their worst mistake of the last decade, fire 'Zeke and hire Carlisle like they should have done directly when Bird stepped away. Carlisle didn't just turn the Pistons into a dominant team, he was also basically coaching those great Pacer teams when Bird was the figurehead coach.

TroyF · 05-31-2003, 06:09 PM

Look, I don't care how the Pistons or their fans want to spin this, it's a classless move.

Had he played Prince in the regular season and lost more games because of it, the same scenario would have played out. If the Pistons thought they were winning because of O'Neal's defense, then you hire O'Neal as head coach.

So Brown is the equivilant of Pat Riley or Phil Jackson is idiotic IMO. Brown's coached in the NBA for 15 years. . . he's been to the finals once. He has zero championship rings at the pro level. Byron Scott has went to double the amount of finals Brown has.

Before you make it sound like I'm insulting Brown, understand I'm not. I'm pointing out simple facts. I'm sure you'll make excuses for Brown. I'm wondering, though, what is the difference between this Detroit team and his teams in Indiana? Spot up shooter is the best offensive force, good but erratic point gaurds, some decent shooters from the wing. Decent, but not great depth.

Wallace is a difference maker on defense, but a liability on offense. All things being equal, Dale Davis gave Indiana their "toughness" and rebounding in the same way Wallace gives Detroit theirs.

How many times did that Indiana team go to the NBA finals under Brown? 0. None. Zippo. Nada. You get the point.

Maybe Brown stays long enough in Detroit to make a difference. Maybe Darko becomes the best big man in the history of the game and Detroit wins it all next year.

I think what will end up happening, is that you'll find out this team was overacheiving as it was. That they'll be hard pressed to equal last year's win total or trip to the conference finals with ANY head coach. Good luck Larry.

TroyF

jetpunk2000 · 05-31-2003, 06:38 PM

Quote:

So Brown is the equivilant of Pat Riley or Phil Jackson is idiotic IMO

I'm not trying to turn this into a "Phil Jackson has never coached a down on its luck team thread" but Phil Jackson has never coached a team down on its luck. I would definitely consider Brown to be the equivalent of Jackson. I honestly believe if Brown had Jordan and Pippen and Kobe and Shaq he'd have 9 titles as well. When Phil turns around a few organizations from scratch or at least attempts it, then I think you could accurately rate his coaching ability.

tucker342 · 05-31-2003, 07:30 PM

I don't think Brown would have been able to keep the peace in LA. He wouldn't have 9 titles...

TroyF · 05-31-2003, 07:52 PM

Brown wouldn't have had the patience to stay in LA or Chicago.

Just curious, how many rings do Shaq, Kobe, MJ, and Pippen have WITHOUT Phil Jackson? That's right, none.

I doubt that Brown would have 9 titles. I doubt he'd have had half that many.

TroyF

cmp · 05-31-2003, 08:17 PM

Now it looks like Carlisle could be heading out West to coach Portland. I'll be interested to see what he can do with a group of players who seem like they are much more talented then Detroit's. Maybe somehow Carlisle can turn that group around and put them in the Finals next year. Unlikely but he did a job with Detroit. A Pistons/Blazers Finals in the next few years could be interesting.

jetpunk2000 · 05-31-2003, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Just curious, how many rings do Shaq, Kobe, MJ, and Pippen have WITHOUT Phil Jackson? That's right, none.

I sense some hostility here.

You got me on that one, they haven't. BUT he also has stepped into the situations at the right times. In Chicago they had been on the verge for a couple of years, but just couldn't get past Detroit. Pippen was in his fourth year and just becoming the player he was going to be for the next decade. When he got to LA, Kobe was entering his fourth year and was just about to come into his own. I'm not trying to downplay what he has done. 9 titles for anybody is incredible in this day and age, no matter how he gets them. But that being said, I would like to see him coach a team without two big named superstars at the same time. Last time he had that MJ had to bail him out midseason. I just like to take my licks at the man, being a Knicks fan. It's about the only joy i can get lately.

jetpunk2000 · 05-31-2003, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Now it looks like Carlisle could be heading out West to coach Portland

Didn't Portland just deny Philly permission to talk to Cheeks? That'd be messed up if they did that and then turn around and whack the guy. Hopefully if they are gonna do it, they'll give Cheeks the respect to at least get the Philly job.

cmp · 05-31-2003, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jetpunk2000
Didn't Portland just deny Philly permission to talk to Cheeks? That'd be messed up if they did that and then turn around and whack the guy. Hopefully if they are gonna do it, they'll give Cheeks the respect to at least get the Philly job.

Here's the article. http://www.detnews.com/2003/pistons/...ons-179401.htm

Apparently they've given Cheeks permission now to speak with Philly.

Also, maybe people shouldn't rush to judgement on Dumars and his "classless" move by firing Carlisle. There might be a little more to the story then you all think.

Daimyo · 05-31-2003, 08:54 PM

Brown should go to Houston. I think he'd be a much better fit there than in Detroit. I bet he's just happy to go anywhere that doesn't have Iverson.

vtbub · 05-31-2003, 09:15 PM

I read the article that gold linked, and I still think that the move was utterly classless. Yes, it seems that the Detroit press is giddy, but as a whole things are so bad there that there isn't much to be giddy about.

Hey, if Carlisle got off to a rocky start next season, at least that would have given Dumars some cover for canning him. Granted, Brown would not have been available, but there are some exceptional coaches currently unemployed who could fill that role.

The really amazing thing is that this musical chairs is not bringing in any new coaches, if Carlisle suckedd in Detroit, why would he do any better in Portland. It really makes NO sense.

Isiah Thomas kept his job and Rick Carlisle didn't? Even too strange for Groovy Walton.

TroyF · 05-31-2003, 09:46 PM

No hostility, just facts. Tell me how different it is if Brown leads the Pistons to the championship this year after Carslile gave the the playoff experience to help get them there?

Sorry, Brown has had talent in the past. As I said, he had more talent in Indiana IMO, and he never led them to the place Detroit thinks he's going to take them. Here's an article with a different spin:

http://espn.go.com/nba/columns/bucher_ric/1561441.html

TroyF

ice4277 · 05-31-2003, 09:53 PM

Ok, Troy, some fair points in this article, but for me, this is the kicker about the whole thing, from the same article:

"As for Brown succeeding Carlisle, well, there's no reason he shouldn't be more successful"

And there it is. Carlisle did a good job but they went after somebody who they feel could do a better job. Carlisle, as I stated earlier, never has seemed to me like the guy who could take them to the next level, and a lot of things in the Nets series kind of pointed that out to me. Carlisle did well to get the team the number of wins he did, but I think Brown will do a better job. You don't. Guess we'll have to wait and see what happens on the court.

cmp · 05-31-2003, 10:01 PM

This almost reminds of the situation in the NFL with Tampa. Tony Dungy took a bad team and made them good. But he wasn't the guy who would be able to take them over the hump so they got rid of him and got Gruden and won a championship. Maybe Detroit's doing the same here in the NBA.

GrantDawg · 05-31-2003, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gold101
This almost reminds of the situation in the NFL with Tampa. Tony Dungy took a bad team and made them good. But he wasn't the guy who would be able to take them over the hump so they got rid of him and got Gruden and won a championship. Maybe Detroit's doing the same here in the NBA.

Yes, but they at least gave him a few seasons. This guy had two! And he over-achieved in both! If this was a computer game that did this to you, you'd be pissed.

05-31-2003, 07:56 AM	#8
Samdari Roster Filler Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Cicero	I just don't see how they thought anyone could get more out of that team. You think Dumars will try to lure Zeke away from the Pacers, or worse, Laimbeer from the WNBA? __________________ http://www.nateandellie.net Now featuring twice the babies for the same low price!

05-31-2003, 10:54 AM	#10
bigdawg2003 High School Varsity Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Austin, Texas, USA	Unbelievable. What the hell is Dumars smoking? __________________ I didn't even know Elvis was from Memphis. I thought he was from Tennessee.

05-31-2003, 11:09 AM	#12
bigdawg2003 High School Varsity Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Austin, Texas, USA	Hopefully Carlisle will go to the Rockets and lead them to a finals win over Larry Brown's Pistons. I say Rockets because I want Carlisle to beat Brown while he's in Detroit, and that won't be more than five seasons. Of all the teams w/o a coach (minus Detroit), Houston will win sooner. __________________ I didn't even know Elvis was from Memphis. I thought he was from Tennessee.

05-31-2003, 12:08 PM	#15
JPhillips Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Newburgh, NY	I think Dumars was programmed by Marc Vaughn! __________________ To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers

05-31-2003, 12:29 PM	#17
bbor Pro Starter Join Date: May 2001 Location: toronto	Carlyle is coming to Toronto :d He can take over another under achieving team __________________ Pumpy Tudors Now that I've cracked and made that admission, I wonder if I'm only a couple of steps away from wanting to tongue-kiss Jaromir Jagr and give Bobby Clarke a blowjob.

05-31-2003, 04:12 AM	#2
Rich1033 High School Varsity Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Sylvania, Ohio	Wow, thats a shock. Dumars better already have the inside track on Brown or Van Gundy to make this move. Actually even if he does I still dont agree with it.

05-31-2003, 04:59 AM	#3
daedalus Pro Rookie Join Date: Oct 2000	This doesn't make sense to me, either. As much as everybody seems to love either Brown or Van Gundy, I don't know that they can do much more than Carlisle has done.

05-31-2003, 06:41 AM	#4
Blackadar Retired Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Fantasyland	Bizarre. Too bad Buttercup's banned or he could give us an explanation.

05-31-2003, 06:44 AM	#5
oykib College Starter Join Date: Oct 2000	I think that this is a black mark on Dumars and the ownership. They do have a chance to land a top flight coach now-- especially with Darko coming. But you can't fire guys after performances like the two year stretch Carlisle just took the Pistons through.

05-31-2003, 07:18 AM	#7
oykib College Starter Join Date: Oct 2000	But I thought that the point was results. If you look at that Detroit team's roster, do you see a 50-win, #1 seeded conference finalist?

05-31-2003, 10:14 AM	#9
TroyF Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000	Unbelievable. This is one of the more bizzare firings I've ever seen. As has been mentioned, I think the guy got more from that group of players than anyone could reasonably suspect. I find it hard to respect this decision. TroyF

05-31-2003, 11:01 AM	#11
GrantDawg World Champion Mis-speller Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Covington, Ga.	I don't give a lick about basketball, but I heard about this on the radio. Someone is going to need to come up with a good explaination for this firing, or who in their right mind would take that job? You would have to think "win it all in one year or else be fired."

05-31-2003, 11:23 AM	#13
heybrad Norm!!! Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Manassas, VA	I'd like to see him go to Philadelphia. Imagine him bringing the same type of defense to Philly and having Iverson on offense. Not a bad combo.

05-31-2003, 11:30 AM	#14
cmp Pro Rookie Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Grand Rapids, MI	I think it's a good move for the Pistons. Carlisle didn't have as much to do with the success as you all think. Their defensive success was primarily because of assistant coach Kevin O'Neill. He implented the system and he ran it. And now O'Neill is possibly heading to Toronto as their new head coach. Carlisle is not good at developing young players. He didn't even play Tayshaun this year until they got to the playoffs, and even then he only played because Michael Curry got foul trouble in one the games. And now with Darko coming in I think Dumars had no confidence in Carlisle to develop him properly.

05-31-2003, 12:10 PM	#16
Bishop Mascot Join Date: Jan 2003	Pistons to name Brown as new coach Monday http://espn.go.com/nba/news/2003/0531/1561343.html

05-31-2003, 12:36 PM	#18
vtbub College Starter Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Burlington, VT USA	Really a dumb move. Real classy. __________________

05-31-2003, 12:49 PM	#19
ice4277 Pro Rookie Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Berkley, MI: The Hotbed of FOFC!	IMO this will be a good move. Carlisle was MUCH too inflexible with his coaching style, and was hell-bent throughout most of the season on not playing Tayshaun and Okur that much. The only reason Tayshaun broke into the lineup was becuase of injuries and Corliss Williamson playing like piss. The offense stagnated and he did little to try and change it. Carlisle was a good coach but, for me, he was never going to win a title here. I think Carlise would have had to change his strategies a bit too much for his liking. If you just look at the record, then yes, he did a good job, but you could also say the team would have been much better served by playing the youngsters more, winning less during the regular season, but giving them valuable experience come the playoffs. This move was not made for the past, it was made for the future.

05-31-2003, 12:51 PM	#20
ice4277 Pro Rookie Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Berkley, MI: The Hotbed of FOFC!	Dola Here's a link to a pretty good column discussing this. Or for those too lazy to click on the button: AUBURN HILLS -- Larry Brown is the next coach of the Pistons. The official announcement could come as early as Monday. And it only makes sense. If you're going to fire a young coach in Rick Carlisle, which the Pistons did Saturday, you have to hire one of the top coaches in the NBA as his replacement. Plus, you don't make this move unless you either have a guy already in place or you know for sure that you can secure your new coach quickly. In this case, there will be no hiring process. You can't interview just any or everybody out there to fill the position. After all, Carlisle won 50 games in each of his first two seasons, won NBA Coach of the Year in his rookie season, captured two Central Division titles, had the best record in the Eastern Conference this season and took the Pistons to the conference finals before they were eliminated by the New Jersey Nets. If you were going to hire Jeff Van Gundy, Paul Silas, Mike Dunleavy, Mike Fratello or John Calipari -- some of the available former NBA coaches out there -- you'd be better off keeping Carlisle. That's why it has to be one of the following coaches: Phil Jackson, Pat Riley or Brown. And since Jackson, the Los Angeles Lakers coach, isn't available and neither is Riley, the Miami Heat coach and part-owner, the obvious choice is Brown. Mark it down: Brown is the man. Saying it was time for a "fresh look," Brown, 62, resigned as coach and vice president of basketball operations of the Philadelphia 76ers on Monday after six seasons. Enshrined to the Basketball Hall of Fame in 2002, Brown is the only coach in NBA history to lead six different teams -- Nuggets, Pacers, Spurs, Nets, Clippers and the ABA's Carolina Cougars -- to the playoffs and has more than 1,000 victories in the ABA, NBA and college ranks. Brown spent five seasons at Kansas, winning the NCAA college basketball championship in 1988. He also coached the UCLA Bruins for two seasons. You have to look at this the same way as when the Tigers fired Les Moss and replaced him with Sparky Anderson in 1979. At the time, Moss was 27-26. But the Tigers felt when you have a chance to upgrade with a proven winner, you do it. You saw it again when the Red Wings replaced Bryan Murray as coach with Scotty Bowman. The Lions, in less of a degree, did it when they first said that Marty Mornhinweg was coming back as coach for his third season. A week or so later, when Steve Mariucci became available, the Lions dumped Mornhinweg and upgraded with Mooch. When you really think about it, it's not that shocking, that outside the box. Apparently, the Pistons felt the same way. If you think that Carlisle was not retained because the Pistons were swept by the Nets or because Carlisle didn't play Tayshaun Prince during the regular season or that upper management didn't like the offense he ran, you're wrong. This is clearly a move to upgrade. Brown isn't some Johnny-Come-Lately. In 31 years, Brown's resume is as impressive as any coach out there. The only knock on Brown is that he doesn't stay put long. The six years he spent with the 76ers was his longest stint anywhere. But at his age, this appears as if it would be his final move. And there are a lot of reasons why Brown would covet this gig. There are no stars. Brown won't have to deal with the superstar problems he had with Allen Iverson in Philly. It's a young, talented team. Brown prides himself as being a teacher of the game. And the Pistons are in position to make a run at a championship in the next couple of years. What a way to go out, with an NBA title. Brown will, no doubt, get a five-year contract worth around $25 million. That's the going rate for top coaches in this league. And the Pistons certainly have that now in Brown.

05-31-2003, 01:26 PM	#22
CHEMICAL SOLDIER College Starter Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Henderson, Nevada	Too bad for Rick ....I bet they would have fired him even if they had gone to the finals . __________________ Toujour Pret

05-31-2003, 03:20 PM	#23
vtbub College Starter Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Burlington, VT USA	Detroit actually has done some good things, they have taliored the team around their strengths and have succeded. Hamilton for Stackhouse? You bet. Prince? In a minute. This isn't the Lions, a team going nowhere. This was a team on the up, with a tremendous draft pick, who probably would have gone that extra step, especially if the Nets lost kid. I like Larry Brown. He was great with Kansas, he got a bum deal in Indy, and he helped Iverson become a better player. Detroit, even if they are the best team in the east, are not in the same league as the West. Coaches learn from their mistakes, and Carlisle being a first time coach I'm sure made a few. They aren't one or two pieces away from that title puzzle. Along with everybody else in the East, they are probably three or four years away. They should have stuck with Rick. __________________

05-31-2003, 03:31 PM	#25
vtbub College Starter Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Burlington, VT USA	Then why go with a coach who, chances are, won't be there in three years? __________________

05-31-2003, 05:25 PM	#27
Schmidty Coordinator Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Early, TX	I trust Joe, but this decision could come back to bite the Pistons in the ass. __________________ Just beat the devil out of it!!! - Bob Ross

05-31-2003, 05:25 PM	#28
jetpunk2000 Waterboy Forever Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Oceanside NY	When I first heard the news I was shocked. Now, it makes a bit more sense to me, but still not 100% sold on it. If Carlisle was really that bad with young players, then you probably won't find a better teacher than Brown. Now wouldn't it be something if Brown backs out of the deal? Given his track record, I don't tihnk that would be out of the question.

05-31-2003, 05:37 PM	#32
daedalus Pro Rookie Join Date: Oct 2000	Larry Brown develops young players?

05-31-2003, 06:05 PM	#36
Daimyo College Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Berkeley	Wow... Maybe the Pacers can finally correct their worst mistake of the last decade, fire 'Zeke and hire Carlisle like they should have done directly when Bird stepped away. Carlisle didn't just turn the Pistons into a dominant team, he was also basically coaching those great Pacer teams when Bird was the figurehead coach.

05-31-2003, 06:09 PM	#37
TroyF Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000	Look, I don't care how the Pistons or their fans want to spin this, it's a classless move. Had he played Prince in the regular season and lost more games because of it, the same scenario would have played out. If the Pistons thought they were winning because of O'Neal's defense, then you hire O'Neal as head coach. So Brown is the equivilant of Pat Riley or Phil Jackson is idiotic IMO. Brown's coached in the NBA for 15 years. . . he's been to the finals once. He has zero championship rings at the pro level. Byron Scott has went to double the amount of finals Brown has. Before you make it sound like I'm insulting Brown, understand I'm not. I'm pointing out simple facts. I'm sure you'll make excuses for Brown. I'm wondering, though, what is the difference between this Detroit team and his teams in Indiana? Spot up shooter is the best offensive force, good but erratic point gaurds, some decent shooters from the wing. Decent, but not great depth. Wallace is a difference maker on defense, but a liability on offense. All things being equal, Dale Davis gave Indiana their "toughness" and rebounding in the same way Wallace gives Detroit theirs. How many times did that Indiana team go to the NBA finals under Brown? 0. None. Zippo. Nada. You get the point. Maybe Brown stays long enough in Detroit to make a difference. Maybe Darko becomes the best big man in the history of the game and Detroit wins it all next year. I think what will end up happening, is that you'll find out this team was overacheiving as it was. That they'll be hard pressed to equal last year's win total or trip to the conference finals with ANY head coach. Good luck Larry. TroyF

05-31-2003, 07:30 PM	#39
tucker342 Pro Starter Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Iowa City, IA	I don't think Brown would have been able to keep the peace in LA. He wouldn't have 9 titles...

05-31-2003, 07:52 PM	#40
TroyF Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000	Brown wouldn't have had the patience to stay in LA or Chicago. Just curious, how many rings do Shaq, Kobe, MJ, and Pippen have WITHOUT Phil Jackson? That's right, none. I doubt that Brown would have 9 titles. I doubt he'd have had half that many. TroyF

05-31-2003, 08:17 PM	#41
cmp Pro Rookie Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Grand Rapids, MI	Now it looks like Carlisle could be heading out West to coach Portland. I'll be interested to see what he can do with a group of players who seem like they are much more talented then Detroit's. Maybe somehow Carlisle can turn that group around and put them in the Finals next year. Unlikely but he did a job with Detroit. A Pistons/Blazers Finals in the next few years could be interesting.

05-31-2003, 08:54 PM	#45
Daimyo College Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Berkeley	Brown should go to Houston. I think he'd be a much better fit there than in Detroit. I bet he's just happy to go anywhere that doesn't have Iverson.

05-31-2003, 09:15 PM	#46
vtbub College Starter Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Burlington, VT USA	I read the article that gold linked, and I still think that the move was utterly classless. Yes, it seems that the Detroit press is giddy, but as a whole things are so bad there that there isn't much to be giddy about. Hey, if Carlisle got off to a rocky start next season, at least that would have given Dumars some cover for canning him. Granted, Brown would not have been available, but there are some exceptional coaches currently unemployed who could fill that role. The really amazing thing is that this musical chairs is not bringing in any new coaches, if Carlisle suckedd in Detroit, why would he do any better in Portland. It really makes NO sense. Isiah Thomas kept his job and Rick Carlisle didn't? Even too strange for Groovy Walton. __________________

05-31-2003, 09:46 PM	#47
TroyF Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000	No hostility, just facts. Tell me how different it is if Brown leads the Pistons to the championship this year after Carslile gave the the playoff experience to help get them there? Sorry, Brown has had talent in the past. As I said, he had more talent in Indiana IMO, and he never led them to the place Detroit thinks he's going to take them. Here's an article with a different spin: http://espn.go.com/nba/columns/bucher_ric/1561441.html TroyF

05-31-2003, 09:53 PM	#48
ice4277 Pro Rookie Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Berkley, MI: The Hotbed of FOFC!	Ok, Troy, some fair points in this article, but for me, this is the kicker about the whole thing, from the same article: "As for Brown succeeding Carlisle, well, there's no reason he shouldn't be more successful" And there it is. Carlisle did a good job but they went after somebody who they feel could do a better job. Carlisle, as I stated earlier, never has seemed to me like the guy who could take them to the next level, and a lot of things in the Nets series kind of pointed that out to me. Carlisle did well to get the team the number of wins he did, but I think Brown will do a better job. You don't. Guess we'll have to wait and see what happens on the court.

05-31-2003, 10:01 PM	#49
cmp Pro Rookie Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Grand Rapids, MI	This almost reminds of the situation in the NFL with Tampa. Tony Dungy took a bad team and made them good. But he wasn't the guy who would be able to take them over the hump so they got rid of him and got Gruden and won a championship. Maybe Detroit's doing the same here in the NBA.

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