Well, Marc tried.. no CM4 USA version:

[SirFozzie]

Just read this item which was posted on Sigames:

"It is with huge sorrow that we must announce that Eidos have decided not to release Championship Manager 4 on the American continent with real player data. We were given the option of releasing with "fictional" data, as we are forced to do in Germany, but this was ultimately unacceptable to us.
The decision was made after Eidos US consulted with a number of lawyers who believed that the risks of releasing the game outweighed the potential commercial success of the game.

We are very disappointed with this decision, particularly after the amount of work that everyone at SI has put in to try and make it happen, but we have lost the battle. That does not mean that we won't win the battle in the future, but, for the time being, Championship Manager 4 will not be released across the Atlantic."


Good thing we got it special order, huh?

[neofied]

I think it's time the sigames started to look for a new publisher. I don't see what the big fuss is about releasing the game here, where it likely would do very well.

But, I also wonder, what is wrong with releasing with fictional data? One would think that most of us here are used to that sort of thing with our text based sims.

[Calis]

I'm not sure I understand exactly, would SI have to pay more licensing fees to release here? I'm not sure how that work. I just don't get this reason, please explain.

Furthermore, why are they forced to do so in Germany? Is this a FIFA deal or what?

[SirFozzie]

In most other nations, you can get by saying "this is a fictional account, the actions of the players in the game does not necessarily correspond to what they would really do" (so a player can't sue them if in the game, they punch a referee or something)

In Germany, the player's names is copyrighted by a FIFA organization, who gave an exclusive license to EA's FIFA series. Therefore, the german version has to be scrambled. Here in the US, SI games would have to go through all the national federations, and get permission to use their players in a game, which does not come cheap.

Same kind of reason you see false names for players in the licensed baseball games, some players are not covered by the agreement because they are not part of the MLBPA, or something similar

[Kevin]

$&^%#%#&^%$*^%$ lawyers manage to ruin everything.

[bbor]

Bah...burecratic red tape shit......

[Calis]

Wow, that's just a strange deal then. So it's fine if they use all the names as long as they don't release it IN the States? That's really jacked up.

It still doesn't make sense, how can they use the names at all?

[SirFozzie]

Calis: If they released it here in America *that is, officially distributed it* then they would be held liable under American copyright law, which is much stronger then general Euro Copyright.

In an interesting sideline to the Germany mention I made earlier, apparently Oliver Kahn has sued EA because of the licensing, and has apparently won, so I don't know what this means for the Germany situation

[SirFozzie]

dola: Here's a news story I found on this. Hope this kind of thing doesn't spread:

The first two come from Germany. One is a suit brought by Oliver Kahn, the German and Bayern Munich goalkeeper, against the producers of a football video game who have used his name in the game. The game in question is EA’s FIFA 2002. Although EA has entered into numerous licensing deals in relation to the game including deals with FIFA, FIFPro (the international players’ union), and a number of national football associations, it is understood that many of the players featured in the game have not directly granted the right to use their names and image in the game. This case should be followed closely by advisors and agents alike as the legal and commercial issues of using player names and images in computer games (and other merchandise) are far from settled in many sports

[Neuqua]

I now hate lawyers even more than I did 45 seconds ago.

[vtbub]

It really sucks.

When Ultimate Soccer Manager was released here, they used real names for that.

[ISiddiqui]

Well, maybe it can be solved with an online download with a 'license' that is on a UK site and not especially 'for' Americans *wink*

And why hate lawyers? Why not hate the politicians that wrote the copyright laws?

[Neuqua]

Originally posted by ISiddiqui
Well, maybe it can be solved with an online download with a 'license' that is on a UK site and not especially 'for' Americans *wink*

And why hate lawyers? Why not hate the politicians that wrote the copyright laws?

Ok fine, I also hate the politicians that wrote the copyright laws.

Punks.

[Samdari]

Politicians are a subset of lawyers especially deserving of ire, but that should not preclude your generic hatred of the legal profession.

[ISiddiqui]

Why, because they allow people who've been stepped on to get their money back? We all know what a better world this would be if the people who suffered injury due to someone else's negligence weren't allowed to get the money to pay for their medical bills from the person which actually caused the harm :p.

I mean, you don't really think that laws prevent corporations from doing shady things, do you? It's the lawsuits that do it. What do you think got cars like the Ford Pinto off the streets?

There are more than a few incompetant doctors, but you don't say we should be wary of the medical profession. So why allow a few bad lawyers to become indicative of the entire legal profession?

[Airhog]

So why dont they release it in the usa with fictional names, and then some 3rd party site release a patch that changes them to real names?

[sabotai]

I don't really see the big deal. I mean, it would be good to walk into Best Buy and see it on the shelves. But let's face it, as far as the USA goes, text sims are a niche market and no matter how pretty a game is, if it is a text sim, it's a niche market game in the US.

I really don't think CM4 would do that well in the US considering it is a niche market game, and on top of that, it's soccer. Soccer is not a major sport in the US.

Also, anyone who really wants it can just buy it from a number of websites. All this really means is that you won't walk into Best Buy and see it on the shelves.

[ISiddiqui]

Airhog: Too much trouble perhaps?

I'm thinking that the first release in the US of CM series, they'd want to be with a bang. Fictional players wouldn't give the same bang. It can work with baseball, because of all the fans of the game, which outnumber soccer fans by quite a margin.

[John Galt]

Originally posted by ISiddiqui
Why, because they allow people who've been stepped on to get their money back? We all know what a better world this would be if the people who suffered injury due to someone else's negligence weren't allowed to get the money to pay for their medical bills from the person which actually caused the harm :p.

I mean, you don't really think that laws prevent corporations from doing shady things, do you? It's the lawsuits that do it. What do you think got cars like the Ford Pinto off the streets?

There are more than a few incompetant doctors, but you don't say we should be wary of the medical profession. So why allow a few bad lawyers to become indicative of the entire legal profession?

Or even more to the point on FOFC, the same copyright laws that protect Jim's game from pirates also prevent CM from being sold here. People here seem very angry about piracy of FOF, but when it comes to not getting a CM4, the tune changes. Could it be self-interest creates a selected like and dislike of laws and lawyers?

[SirFozzie]

Basically.. this is just my opinion, Marc can agree or disagree. Right now, awareness of CM is high, with a lot of text sim developers and other career sim developers giving the CM squad mad props for setting the bar in career sims, but it's a big fish in a small pond. It's got as many folks as it will have, through word ouf mouth and special order.

They wanted to bring the game over in full fledged goodness, the EBX, Babbages, etc stores.. and get told because of copyright laws, to license everything for America may cost more then it could bring back right now, and also might open them up for changes in Europe (look at what I posted about the situation in Germany, for example).

So it's a business decision, plain and simple. If the market was worth it at this time, they'd go with it. As things stand, they can still be big fishes, at least in the small pond.

[ISiddiqui]

Or even more to the point on FOFC, the same copyright laws that protect Jim's game from pirates also prevent CM from being sold here. People here seem very angry about piracy of FOF, but when it comes to not getting a CM4, the tune changes. Could it be self-interest creates a selected like and dislike of laws and lawyers?

Heh, very true. Of course, by disparaging the legal system, I know he was also bringing in the biases about 'insane awards' (which usually get lowered on appeal and only account for about 1% of all lawsuits). I'm not all the familiar with the US copyright law, so I can't comment if it is any better than some European countries.

[neofied]

Well, CM4 is sold here, because GoGamer is based in America I believe. They are selling an import and that is no different than your local Tower Records or other music store selling an import. It's perfectly legal and skirts the law, since they are ordering it from overseas and simply reselling here. Technically Electronics Boutique, Wal-Mart, or any other retailer could do it as well.

The legal issues would have to deal with Eidos actually marketing and distributing the game here themselves.

[SirFozzie]

neofied: But to make any sort of splash with the EBX/Babbage's etc, you need a pretty good marketing campaign and getting your title into the magazines and such. Not practical for the companies all involved

[Chief Rum]

Yes, neofied has a point, which does confuse me. I am a regular customer of gogamer, which has never disappointed me, and they are based in Irvine, which is just a city over from me. I bought both CM01-02 and CM4 from them, by delivery, and it was obvious from the delivery times and the FedEx tracking programs that these boxes did not start their trip to me from Britain, but from Irvine. :)

It's interesting to see that such items can be sold via delivery in this manner, but put them on the shelves and it's a no go. Strange.

Chief Rum

[neofied]

Originally posted by SirFozzie
neofied: But to make any sort of splash with the EBX/Babbage's etc, you need a pretty good marketing campaign and getting your title into the magazines and such. Not practical for the companies all involved

You're 100 percent correct and this is why you don't see them sell imports at the game stores. That's too bad, because there are many great games made in Europe that aren't sold here. At least we have the Internet and fast global shipping.

[SirFozzie]

Yup. I mean, it can happen, I mean, EA sports has put a RUGBY game out here in the USA ;)

(I must be weird, I love watching rugby (both codes), soccer, cricket, aussie rules football.. while my ardor with american sports has slightly cooled)