Sab's How I Suck At Poker Dynasty

[sabotai]

In this dynasty, much like Tred's poker dynasty, I will give accounts of my time at the poker table. If you have read Tred's, you'll see that I didn't have much luck with my first night out at the tables.

I went up $8, went down $21 and finally settled on $12.25 in the hole overall.

Basically what I'm hoping for is for people to tell me what I did right, and why. What I did wrong and why. What should have tipped me off that they had a big hand. What should have tipped me off that they had a bad hand.

Basically, teach me poker as I lose money at the tables and hopefully others will learn by my mistakes. :D

And like Tred, I will be discussing hand where I make it passed the flop. There may be times, however, where I go through what I folded to get some opinions on if I did the right thing and if I should have played the hand.

Let's take a look at some early hands.

Hand 5 - TO start, I know what I did wrong. At least I think i do.

A few hands before, I had 8d 3d. I folded. On the flop came 3 more diamonds. Influenced by that and just wanted to test my luck (since I had been there for 5 hands and had nothing) I call. I am also in 1st position (right ahead of big blind)

On the flop comes Td, 7c, 8h and I fold. I know I should not have called.

Hand 6[b] - On the big blind now. I'm dealt 4s, 8h. It comes around to me and I check. The flop is 3s, Ah, 2d. It get checked around until it gets to the guy before me (in the small blind position) and he bets. I fold.

Important note, I am starting to leanr that this guy is basically throwing money away. Important later on.

[b]Hand 7 - In the small blind now. I get dealt Jc, Jd. It comes around to me and I call the remaining 25 cents.

The flop comes 5s, Kd, 5c and now I have Jacks and Fives. Someone bets and 2 fold out. I call. Including me, there are 5 people left.

4th Street: 2c Everyone checks.

The river is 3h. Fearing that someone might have a 3 of a kind or a full house, I just check and so does everyone else. I end up winning the pot with Jacks and Fives.

Should I have played this hand differently? Should I have bet instead of checked? Raised instead of called? If you need to know (and you probably do), I was first for all the betting. (IOW, when the flop was dealt, I went first. When the next card came, I went first again. And when the river came out, I was first again. Should I have started with a bet in any of these cases instead of checking?)

Hand 11 - My first AK hand. I got As and Ks. I am second from the big blind. I call. Someone raises (it's the guy handing out money). I call again.

The flop comes: 4d, 4s, 4h. It gets checked all around.

The next card: 9s. First person bets, next folds. I'm 3rd and I call as does everyone else. I have 4 spades, just one more for the flush.

The river: 7d. Again, the first person bets. Not having anything other than what is one the board, I fold.

Should I have folded earlier? or have held out for the flush (which is what I did)? (The winning hand ended up being a full house. Fours full of Nines)

Hand 12 - The very next hand and I'm in the big bind (the one who was supposed to have been left). Once again I get an AK. Ad Kc this time. The first position raised it to $1. I call.

The flop comes: Qd, Ks, 6c. I got Kings with ace kicker. I go first and I start off with a bet. The next person raises. This sends up a little flag in my head. It gets called around with 1 folding. 5 still in it.

The next card is Th. I start worrying about someone having the straight and start hoping the next card is a J which would give me an unbeatable straight. No straight flush possible and if a J gets dealt, no full house. I check (should I have started with a bet?).

The next guy bets. He's the one who raised before. Little flag still up. No one folds. It gets back around to me and I call.

The river card: 3c. No help there. I still have Kingd Ace kicker and I'm worrying about the guy next to me having a straight.

I check. The guy next me then checks (?), the guy after him now bets. 1 folds. It gets to me and I call as does the guy next to me. Little strange. :)

My worries were true, someone indeed have the straight. But it was the guy two positions down and not the guy next to me. The guy next to me also had Kings with an ace kicker.

Should I have gotten out earlier? Folded after the river? Before that?

Hand 16 - I am dealt Kd, Qc in a middle position. I decide to call. It gets raised. I call again. (Mistake?)

The flop comes: Ks, 4h, 3d. Another pair of Kings. 2 people fold and I call. 4 people left in it.

The next card comes: 7d. It gets checked around until someone bets. I call and everyone else folds. So it's down to just em and someone else. I look hard at the cards and try to think of what he might have. What I come up with is either he has 3 Kings, is hoping for a flush or trying to win with a pair in his pocket.

The river card: 4d. If he was waiting for a flush, he got it. He bets. I call. He wins.

And yes, you poker players out there probably have spotted my disasterous mistake. I completely forgot about the full house. He won with Fours full of Threes.

I looked over the log. He betted after the 4th and river cards. I'm wondering, with just a weak two pair after the 4th card (4s and 3s), why did he bet instead of letting it check around? Did he make a "correct" or an "incorrect" move?

After the 5th card, it's obvious as to why he betted. :)

Hand 25 - Iam dealt 7c, 9c in first position. I call.

The flop comes 4d, Ts, 9d and I fold after someone bets.

Now...I do not know what I was thinking because I do not remember this hand at all. It's possible that I was in a convo with someone on IRC at this time and just got...confused. I put it here for you guys to laugh at me. :)

Hand 26 - In the big blind, I'm dealt Ac, Jc. I check it to the flop.

The flop is Th, 8c, 9d. It gets raised twice before it gets to me and I fold, thinking someone must have hit their straight for it to get raised twice. Didn't want to take the chance that I wouldn't make mine. (A 6 and a K came afterwards so I wouldn't have). And someone indeed get their straigh.

Hand 36 - In the big blidn again. Dealt Kd, Td. It gets raised once and I call.

The flop comes 5s, 4c, 7d. I check, someone bets and I fold.

Hand 37 - In the small blind this time. Got 6s, Ts on the deal. I call the remaining quarter.

The flop comes Jh, Kh, 8h. I check, the next person bets. Everyone else (4 other people) call. I decide to fold. (The winner won with a flush)

Hand 42 - I find myself in the big blind again. A coupel of have either left or sat out. Hmm.

Anyway, I am dealt Kc, 3h and I check.

The flop is 8c, Qh, Ah. Someone bets and I fold.

Hand 45 - Small blind this time. I get 9d, 7d. Someone raises and when it comes to me, I decide to call $0.75

Flop: 5h, 8h, 9s. Pair of 9s with a possible straight. I check, someone bets, I call. 3 people left.

Next card: 2h. Someone bets and I fold.

Pissed me off because I would have won the pot had I kept playing. This is the hand I told some about. One of the people here kept betting even though they didn't have anything. They were beat with a pair of Eights. (I had a pair of Nines)

Hand 52 - In the big blind. 8c, 9h. I check it to the flop.

Flop: Ad, Ah, 3d. I check, someone bets, I fold.

Hand 53 - In the small blind. 4d, 8d. I call the $0.25 to get to the flop.

Flop: 4h, 9h, 7h. I check, someone bets, I fold fearing a flush (which is what the person had)

Hand 61 - Big Blind. 8d, Kd. I check it to the flop with 2 others calling (including small blind)

Flop: Ah, 7d, 2s. The three of us check.

4th Street: As. Someone has to have 3 Aces now. The three of us check it.

The river card: Ac. Someone has to have 4 aces now! The three of us check it.

No one had the ace. I end up winning a $1.50 just because I had the highest card (A king. So I won with 3 Aces with a King Kicker).

Hand 63 - I've got the button. I get dealt Th, Jh. I call when it comes to me and 6 of us continue.

The flop: Qh, 7s, Ah No way! I'm just one card away from a royal straight flush! I just need to the Kh to come out. Thinking that I would settle for any K card, and I guess just wanting to flirt with a little bluffing, I bet causing 3 people to fold.

The next card: 2d. A little more conservative now, I check as does everyone else.

The river card: 8d. No royal straight flush for me. Someone bets and I fold.

Hand 65 - I get 8d, Ad in a middle position. I decide to call.

The flop 5c, Kc, Kh. Someone bets and I fold.

Hand 68 The big blind again. I get 8s, Js and check it to the flop. Only two others are with me.

Flop: 8h, Qh, Ac. Pair of Eights with a possible straight. It gets checked around.

4th Street: Th. Could I catch the straight on the river? The guy I told you about earlier was in it and bets. I'm not buying it! I call the other folds. It's down to me and Mr. I Hate Money Here Have It.

The river card: 9c. I have my 8-Q straight. I bet. Mr. Take My Money Please raises! I think for a second. If he has a K and J, he beats me. But I don't think he does. I take a chance and I call.

It pays off. I win the $7 pot. He did have a straight though, but it was 6-T, so my straight beat his)

Hand 70 - I get dealt Ks, Ah when I have the button. I call. 7 others stay in as well.

Flop: 2d, 5s, Td. It gets checked all around

Next card: 6d. Once again, checked all around.

River: Kc. Someone bets, and everyone starts folding. Don't think anyone could have much, and since I have the Ace card to beat any other pair of Kings, I take a chance and call. 1 other person calls.

I lose. Someone (the one who betted) wins on Sixes and Fives. Wonder why he didn't bet after getting the 2nd 6 off 4th street?

Hand 75 Big Blind. I am dealt Kh, 9h. Someone raises and I call with 3 others.

Flop: Qd, 6c, 3s. I check, someone bets, I fold.

(to be continued)

[RPI-Fan]

Only read the first few hands so far, BUT...

Your play on Hand #7 is <b>correct</b>, IMO. You had to put the flop raiser on a King-low kicker, and in first position couldn't raise. Nothing wrong with what you did there.

Hand 11: Depending on how much was in the pot after the turn, I'd have folded. Rather, a proper play would be to raise post-flop IMO - you can't put anyone on a 4 (for two reasons... people generally wouldn't have called ANY hand preflop that has a 4 in it and 2) there's only one 4 left in the 47 unknown cards... that combined with the above reason can let you assume know one has a 4 (or at least give you the odds to put them off a 4)).

When the 9 comes with a bet, you have to fold, unless you're getting good odds. You have a 11/46 chance of hitting one of your outs (Any spade, any ace, any king). Round that down to 4:1, and you need to be earning a pot of AT LEAST $5.00 to justify a call there. If you are getting that money in the pot, then it is the correct long run play to call.

More to come later...

P.S.: This is all my unprofessional opinion, based on some limited (no pun intended:)) poker reading, and more extensive home game playing (with some strong players, some weak players).

~rpi-fan

[sabotai]

"Round that down to 4:1, and you need to be earning a pot of AT LEAST $5.00 to justify a call there. If you are getting that money in the pot, then it is the correct long run play to call."

I went back to the hand and added up the pot to that point. Counting the $1 that was bet after the 9 was dealt, there was $8 in the pot. So I guess that means I played that hand correct after the flop (even though I probably shouldn't have been there post flop)

"P.S.: This is all my unprofessional opinion, based on some limited (no pun intended) poker reading, and more extensive home game playing (with some strong players, some weak players)."

NP. This makes you much more experienced than me. Growing up in my house, 500 Rummy was the card game of choice, so I still have limited experience with Poker.

[TredWel]

Now it's my turn to jack someone else's poker thread for a change. :D I'll gladly offer my two 25 cent chips in regards to your questions.

Hand #7: I think the play on the flop and the turn is correct, you have to worry about a king out there. But, when everyone checks the turn, that's a little flag there. When the blank falls on the river, I would have thrown another bet out there. I just can't see someone bet their king on the flop and then stop on the turn.

Hand #11: When there is a bet on the nine ather the flop checked, you're no longer playing for the flush, as the presumed fours full of nines beats you. You have seven outs (Ace or King for a higher full house, and the last four for quads and Ace kicker), and I don't think you were getting the odds necessary there, but I could be wrong.

Hand #12: I think I would have played it the same way. You've got to give credit to the hand that hit the straight on the turn, just making a disciplined call. If he raised, he probably would have scared you and others out of the hand.

Hand #16: I think that he bet then to try and scare off flush draws. He probably also has the best hand right now, and it can't hurt to put more money into the pot. In order to have a better two pair, a person would have called with K-7 or worse. It's a fine play in my estimation.

It looks like you were playing better than par (albeit not difficult at this level), but you got a lot of drawing hands that didn't and unfriendly boards in your blinds. If you look back at my poker thread, you'll notice that my one big losing session was populated with hands like that.

[RPI-Fan]

Hand 12: That's a tricky one, and what I might have done actually is re-raise pre-flop to really put your guy on a hand. If he raises back I'd put him on a high pair, and perhaps lay it down. If he just calls, he's probably on a hand like yours (KQ, AJ, AQ, etc.).

You were correct in betting into the flop. When the T comes out, though, I'd check, and see what the action looks like. There's too many draws (which would have matched big preflop raises) which fit the likely drawing hands. It's easy to say in retrospect, but I'd lay 'em down at that point.

Hand 16: His play was correct, IMO. He can't be put on K4 or K3 (too weak to play preflop), and can't be put on a flush draw either. There weren't many potential hands, at least at that point, that could beat his two pair. That's a very, very tough read, particularly at an online table, so there's not much you could have done.

I'd probably have put him on a straight draw (56, A2, A5 - most likely the former), and called his bet. But that would have been wrong. I think this is just one of those times where you're trapped in a flop, and can't do anything about it (because of the weak play of some idiot calling preflop with 43x).

Hand 25: Yea' - you shouldn't have been in that pot, ESPECIALLY in 1st position. Even if you do hit a pair, or your flush draw, you still probably don't have the best hand, or even draw. It's a sucker hand (you're going to get trapped), and you should NEVER play it from early position.

Hand 26: Good laydown - since you were certain that someone had their straight, the one you hit might not even be the nuts. That means the 7 doesn't do you any good. Thus you're drawing to an inside straight, essentially, and not getting the correct odds to play the hand. Well done (though I might have raised preflop).

Hand 36: I'd try to note who exactly raised and when. If the same guy raised pre-and-post-flop, you can definitely put him on a pocket pair. Otherwise, he's on a drawing hand (much like yours), and someone else either hit or drew to a straight (more likely he was drawing for it...). If there were two different raisers, I'd call, since you have 8 outs (plus the runner flush), but if it was the same guy, you probably only have 4 outs (plus the runner flush), and thus, I'd fold.

Hand 37: Should've laid down before the flop. Here's my rule of thumb when on the small blind: would I ever consider calling a full bet with my hand? If so, then it's probably Ok to complete the blind. Otherwise (as should have been your case), I fold since there's no way I'd ever play T6x.

Hand 45: Should NOT have played preflop (particularly with a raise), but once you did you made the right play. You had to put someone on a flush, and thus made the correct laydown.

More later...

[RPI-Fan]

Re: Hand 12...

I lapsed mentally, and didn't think about what I was saying. Tred is right - the full house you're playing to beat leaves you with 7 outs (The lone 4, and 3 A/K's)... Thus you're at 7/46 odds. Round down to 6:1, and you need $6 in the pot to call. Still looks like the right play to me, based on what you replied with.

[sabotai]

Hand 77 - With the button, I am dealt Ts, Ad and I call.

The flop: 9h, Qc, 3s. Someone bets and I fold. I think i just got bored and tested my luck. *shrugs*

Hand 82 - 7d, 6d in 1st position. I decide to call.

Flop: 2d, Ts, Kc. Someone bets, I fold.

Hand 83 - Big Blind here. I get dealt 5h, As and check it to the flop.

The flop: 4h, 4s, Js. Someone bets and I fold.

Hand 86 - I get dealt 6d, Td and call.

Flop: 8c, 2s, 6s. Pair of Sixes with Ten Kicker. Not the best. But when the bet gets to me, I call it.

Next card: 9h. Need the seven for a straight. Someone bets and I decide to walk.

Hand 88 - I get As, Kd in a middle position. I call it, someone raises and I decide to call it again.

The Flop: 9s, 2c, 8h. Someone lays down a bet and I fold.

Hand 93 - .....Hand 93....will forever be burned into my memory. This is pretty much the hand that broke me in this sitting.

I am dealt 9d, Kd. In the small blind and having been raised, I call the $0.75.

Flop: Qh, Ts, 5c. I'm just one card away from the straight. Still, I check it. Someone bets and I call.

The next card: Js. I've hit my straight. I start off by placing a bet. Someone calls and the next person raises. I call. The guy next to me (who just called) now decides he's going to raise. The raiser raises again....the heart is pounding now. I take a while to think about it. I decide to call. The guy next to me calls and we go to the river.

River card: 5s. I check...the guy next to me bets, the raiser raises. I call. The guy next to me calls. I've placed $7.50 into the pot. And I lost it all. Out of the 3 of us, I had the worst hand.

I had a straight 9-K. For the past many hands, people had been winning with pairs and 2 pair. I pushed hard cause I wanted this pot.

The guy next to me had a T-A straight. He beat me.

But the 3rd guy, the guy who raised twice off 4th street had a Full House. Fives full of Queens. But he didn't get his third Five until the river card. Why would he raise twice after the 4th card when he only had 2 pair and the straight possibility is staring him in the face? After the flop when he got his 2 pair, he only called. After the J was dealt, he raises twice. I can understand raising once to scare off people looking for a straight. But hacing to raise twice and being raised yourself should clue you that the straight had been gotten. Maybe I'm just a passive player. :)

(Maybe I'm pissed I didn't get that $23.50 pot...yeah, that's it)

A few more hands of just either folding or seeing the flop and folding and I'm out of that table. That Hand 93....damn. I don't know what to make of that. :)

[sabotai]

"Hand 36... but if it was the same guy, you probably only have 4 outs (plus the runner flush), and thus, I'd fold."

It was the same guy.

[sabotai]

First Night - Round 2

In an attempt to gain some of my lost money back (I stopped at $21 in the hole), I started playing again after about an hour.

Hand 1 - In the Big Blind, I am dealt Qh, Qd. Finally a pair. :) I check it to the flop.

Flop: 3c, 5c, 8d. I check, someone bets, I call with 2 others.

The next card: 9s. Someone could have a straight. I check. Someone bets and a little flag raises. Someone else calls and someone folds. I think for a second and decide to call.

The river: 5h. I check. Somone (the same guy) bets. Someone calls and I sit and think...and think....and call.

I win with Queens and Fives. The guy who betted was either stupid or bluffing the straight. And it almost worked. He ended up having just the pair of Fives on the board, (He needed to the 7 for a straight) The third guy that remained had Tens and Fives.

Hand 2 - I get dealt Ts, 9h on the small blind. I call the rest of it.

Flop: 3d, 9d, 3s. Nines and Threes with a Ten kicker. I check. Someone bets and I call with someone else.

Next card: 9s. Full house, Nines full of Threes. I lay down a bet. One person calls, the other raises....thoughts of Hand 93 come into my mind. I call as does the 3rd guy.

The river: Kc. A little scared of that raise, I decide to just start off with a check. The raiser now bets. I call and the 3rd guy folds.

Hey, we learn to share. We both had Nines full of Threes. We split the $11.50 pot.

A bunch of folds later and I leave the table before the blind gets to me again.

And that does it for my first night of poker. In the end, I am still $12.25 in the hole overall. But at least that's up from $21 down.

[sabotai]

Another day at the tables. The PartyPoker server must have died because it kicked me off and I can't reestablish connection.

It was a so-so day. Nothing really exciting happened. I made some mistakes that I knew I shouldn't have, but I played several hands well, IMO. In the end, when the server booted me, I was up a whole quater. :)

Just as I wrote this, I got back in...to be continued.

[sabotai]

I ended up stopping $4.75 in the hole. I basically got nothing except for one hand.

I had QQ in my hand, and crap flopped. Both times I betted (pre flop and after the flop) to scare off anyone who might try to stick around and grab a lucky draw.

Well it didn't work. On the 4th card, a K drew giving someone a pair of kings. I still betted and called and raises. As you can see, I lost.

The person who had kings wasn't scared off by my bets and raises when they had nothing in their hand. Sometimes I really hate these cheap tables. :)

I did get a bonus $10 from PartyPoker from when I deposited $50 the other night. So, basically instead of $17 in the hole overall, I'm just $7 in the hole.

I do take comfort in seeing people flush $50 or $60 down the drain in the time it takes me to only lose about $4 or so. I also take comfot in knowing they have probably been playing longer than me and in a couple of weeks, hopefully sooner, I'll be the one taking it from them. :)

[sabotai]

Ugh, I'm just not good at this right now. I went down $9 quickly in a game tonight. So that makes it $16 overall in the hole. I'm leaving to go out in a few minutes, so I'll make this quick.

Who calls preflop in a middle position with a 2 and a 4? The guy who took a few bucks off me when he made his straight on the river card, that's who.

I'll post some accounts of hands played when I get back tonight.

[RPI-Fan]

FTR, at the cheap tables, I figure that some people actually use the following system to determine whether to call preflop...

1) ANY suited cards
2) ANY connected cards
3) ANY ONE face card

And thus the awful beats...

[sabotai]

RPI, the thing that has bugged me thus far is that these are the same people who lose $50 in a half hour, yet whenever I got something, they lucky and beat me...every damn time. :) (I know in the end, the odds will win out and I'll end up ahead. It's just frustrating sometimes. :) )

[thealmighty]

Every time I start to get loose and impatient, a guy I play with and I have a running joke..."Patience, Grasshopper."

(it is for old people, from tv's Kung Fu show.)

[sabotai]

I finally get away from SWG to play some poker.

Hand 1 : I start off on the BB. I get dealt 7s, 8s and 5 people including the SB calls. I check.

The flop is 9c, 4d, 2h . No chance of a flush and little chance of the straight. I check as does everyone else. 4th street comes up 8h. I have a pair of 8's but with a bad kicker. When the betting is started off with a bet, I decide to just fold.

Hand 2 : On the SB now, I get Jd, 7d. 4 people call and I throw in my other half.

The flop is 2d, 6h, Kd. Good chance at a flush now. I start off betting 5 people call and 1 folds. 4th street is Tc. I still have 4-1 odds of hitting my flush, so I bet. 3 people call and 2 fold. The river is a bummer, a Kc. I check, someone bets and since I have nothing, I fold.

Hand 7 : In middle position I get dealt Jh, Ks. I call it. Someone raises. I think about it, and I decide to call the raise. 4 others call it as well.

The flop comes up 4c, 8c, 6h. (Is this a good flop for me?). It gets checked all around. I'm thinking that no one has a 4, 6 or 8 otherwise they would have betted considering how loose 0.5/1 tables are. So I rule out any pair or three of a kind. Also, no one has a 5 or 7, or they surely would have betted. Most likey, they would have betted with a draw flush as well. Since it gets checked around, I'm confident that this flopped helped no one at all.

4th street is Js. I now have a pair of J's with a K kicker. The only hand I fear now is an AJ, which I think is the only one that can beat me. It gets checked to me and I start off betting to raise the pot and to scare off anyone trying to hit a straight on the river and anyone who did decide to check a draw flush. 3 people call and 2 fold.

River is Jc. Interesting as it does complete the flush. It's checked to me. I bet. Now, the pre-flop raiser raises. Was she trying for the flush? Does she have an AJ? I take into consideration that she is one of those "Take my money please!" people. I'm thinking she has something, but not a great hand. I'm cautious though, and decide to just call her raise. 1 other calls as well.

When the raiser turns over pocket rockets, I give a hugh sigh of releif. My 3 J's take the $14.75 pot.

Hand 11 : On the BB now. I get dealt 9h, 9d. 6 people call including the SB. I check.

The flop is 7c, Jc, Ad. All someone needs is a J or A to beat my pair now. Considering 6 others are still in, that possibility is high. I check. Someone bets and then someone else raises. I decide to get out of there.

This hand REALLY annoyed me. Not only did another 9 get dealt on 4th street, 3 nines would have won the pot. The raiser folded and someone won with a pair of J's.

Did I play this hand right? I think I did, but I'm a peeved about losing a pot I would have won. :)

Hand 12 : On the SB I get dealt Qd, Kh. 3 people call and I throw in my other half. The BB checks.

The flop is 7d, Ks, Kc and I'm wetting myself. In my excitement, I know I played this too tough. I started off betting and two people called. Thinking back, I probably should have tried a check raise since I was starting off the action.

4th street is 4c and I start off betting again. I did this to try to scare off anyone trying to hit a flush on the river. Perhaps I did accomplish this.

The river is 9c which would have completed a flush. I try not to worry about the flush, thinking I surely would have scared them off with my post-flop bet and my 4th street bet. There's only 1 person left. I start off betting and he calls. I win the $7.50 pot as he only had the pair of K's that was on the board (he had an A kicker).

I end up playing until the BB gets to me again and I decide to stop playing. Not wanting to risk the money I have won (yes, I do see the cup as half empty. :) )

Besides, I left the table because in that last few hands before I left the table was getting very pre-flop betting happy and I had a feelign that I would have lost my blinds no matter what I was dealt (unless I got AA or KK, but I wasn't taking the chance).

Here are two hands that I folded pre-flop, and would like to know if any of you would have played them.

Pre-flop fold #1 : I was on the button and was dealt a Js, Tc. The action was raised, which made me fold. Would any of you have called with this in late position?

Pre-flop fold #2 : I had 3d, 3h in late position. I folded it (there was no raise). It just got me wondering. When do I call or call a raise with a pair and how high should that pair be? Do you ever call with a low pair?

I finished the day up $12.25 in my best showing yet. Hopefully, the trend will continue.

Overall, however, I'm still at -$3.75. But since I was at -$21 after my first day, I'm slowly coming back.

Feedback on any of my hands is appriciated. I want to know if I'm playing correctly or if I'm playing lucky. The last thing I want to to get used to playing a certain way only to find out it's the wrong way and not be able to stop.

[RPI-Fan]

The pair of nines was the correct play - you had exactly two outs in the deck - IOW 24-1 odds.

33 is something I'd call with in late position with no raise, but that's just a personal thing since I hit quad 3's on the flop once.:) Seriously, though, I think it's worth a call, since you'll usually have the best hand if it hits. That can't necessarily be said about two high cards.

JTx with a raise is appropriate to fold, IMO. The only outs you have are the straight draw, or two pair on the flop. With KQx you can at least count a top pair as on out.

~rpi-fan

[sabotai]

What about 3's in middle and first positions?

Also, generally speaking, how high should a pair be to play it in middle and first positions? Like, should I play only 8's and higher in mid positions? Higher than 8's? etc.

[Radii]

If you have pocket pairs, you have 7 1/2 to 1 odds to flop trips. If you don't flop trips or an open ended straight draw there's almost no way you call any bet on the flop. I think the idea is that if you *know* you can see the flop for one bet it's generally worth it in a low limit game where there will be a ton of callers.

The problem is that from early/middle position the chance of a raise behind you is generally too good, and you probably don't want to pay two bets for that 7 1/2 to 1 shot. I think that's the reason for only playing it from late position. If you're at a very passive table where there are almost never any pre-flop raises, then you are probably safe calling a pair of 3s from early or middle position.

[TredWel]

Personally speaking, when it comes to pocket pairs, I'll play nines and up anywhere, eights through sixes in late position only, and smaller pairs only in late position with a lot of callers.

Of course, if the game is extremely passive and lose, you can relax those guidlines a bit.

[sabotai]

I decided to get in a little poker tonight.

Hand 1 - On the BB, I get dealt 9d, Qh. 3 limpers and the SB call and I see the flop for free.

Qs, 2s, 2d. I got my pair, but does someone have trips 2's? Worse yet, a Q2? I try to scare off anyone trying to hit the spade flush but starting off with a bet. 3 call and 1 fold.

8c comes on 4th street. I don't think this helps anyone. I start off with a bet again. 2 call and 1 fold.

3c comes on the river. No flush for anyone. If someone does have trips 2's, trips Q's or the full house, they played discipline enough to not raise any of my bets. I start off betting. 1 call and 1 fold.

I win the $9 pot on my pair of Q's. The caller had nothing. The pair of 2's that was on the board. He did hold an ace, so I guess he thought he might beat me with his A kicker...he also held 2 spades, so he was hoping for the flush to land. Tough luck, buddy.

Hand 2 - Qs, Ts on the small blind. There's a raise and I call it.

6s, 7h, Kc comes on the flop. There's a bet and I get out of there.

Hand 10 - I get dealt Js, Jh and start off the action by calling the 0.50 (should I have started with a raise?) Well, the BB decides to raise anyway. I call it. 5 others call as well.

Th, 9h, 5c is the flop. Ick. I check as does everyone else.

2c on 4th street. Someone bets and I fold.

Hand 11 - On the BB I get Js, Qc. I check with 4 limpers and the SB in it.

Jd, 4h, Ks comes on the flop. Pair of J's, but I don't like that king in there. Someone i sbound to have one. I start off with a bet anyway (was that a good move?) and everyone calls it.

Ad comes next. Now I'm certain someone has my pair beat. I check, someone bets, I fold.

Hand 12 - On the SB I get Kd, 2c. I want to see the flop so I chuck in the extra quarter.

7s, 7h, Tc on the flop. Everyone checks.

Ts on 4th street and everyone checks again. No one has the full house?

The river is Qc. I check. Someone puts a bet down, but I'm sure it was because they thought that everyone else still had nothing and were just trying to steal the pot. Even so, with the pot at just a tiny $4, it's not worth the $1 to find out. I fold.


After the 18th hand, I leave the table. Not bad. Just wanted to get in about a half hour so I keep my mind sharp on poker. Don't want to go too long without playing.

Tonight: +$2.50
Overall: -$1.25

[Radii]

I definitely would have raised the jacks. I also would have bet them on the flop and the turn with no overcards. There was no straight or flush possible yet, although it is possible people were drawing towards them. You've got to make people pay for those draws, and if you lose to someone dumb enough to play T5 or something for two pair, oh well :) (not likely thought with no one betting)

[RPI-Fan]

I would _not_ have raised the jacks preflop, just called, and postflop would have raised.

~rpi-fan

[Malificent]

I definitely would've raised the jacks pre-flop. If you hit the big hand, you want the pot to be big enough to be worth it. If you drive a few people out pre-flop, all the better - that way they won't luck into a flop that beats you.

Pair of Jacks is one of the best hands you can get in limit play, and I probably would've been betting them aggressively with a T-9-5 flop, because you're guaranteed to have top pair. T-9 could be two pair from someone, but they're likely to raise you if they have that off the flop. If you bet it aggressively, then you may drive someone out that could've beat you with the turn card.

I probably would've stayed in when the guy bet on a 2. But my philosophy is that you have to bet the strong hands to make up for all the folding of weak hands. :)

[Bee]

Hand 10. Definitely would have raised the Jacks. I would have probably raised the bet after the flop to scare off people trying to draw something outta nothing.

I think the play on Hand 11 is harder to say because it depends on how the table is running. I'd have most likely checked with the Jacks.

[Airhog]

Sabotai: It seems the skill you need to work on the most is reading the other people at the table and adjusting your play.

[sabotai]

"Sabotai: It seems the skill you need to work on the most is reading the other people at the table and adjusting your play."

Yeah, and working on that skill is near impossible at these tables. ;)

I'm trying to basically follow what David Sklansky says in his book "Hold 'Em Poker"

"Solid strategic play of good cards remains the most important aspect of the game. Furthermore, it is important to understand that reading techniques work best against fair-to-good players. Experts are tougher, and live ones (suckers) are toucher still. However, "live ones" will give their money away to you if you just play solid cards."

[sabotai]

Just when I thought I was getting the hang of it.

Well, to start off, I started playing th eother night, but before I could do anything, I had to leave, and ended up $5 down overall.

I'm not going to post any hands anymore, unless I have a specific question. In most cases, I know exactly what I'm doing wrong, but I don't realize until it's too late. I have to stop myself from playing loose when I first sit down at a table. I'm usually a good $3 or $4 in the hole before I get started.

So new rule. Unless I have a high pair (JJ, QQ, KK, AA), I am going to fold every hand I have for the first pass of the blinds. Hopefully, this will keep me from calling questionable hands pre-flop. Get me into rhythm, so to speak.

I'm now down a total of $14. I started off way too loose, called for way too long and was $6.50 down pretty quickly. Then the cards just did not show up and didn't see the flop again. I left after getting close to the $10 limit because of lost blinds.

I also need to start playing more. I accept that I will probably lose all $50 of my initial investment. This is the first time I'm seriously playing poker. Gin, Pinochle and Hearts were the games I played most. So poker really is pretty new to me. So I'm not really bummed about losing today.

It's just that I am (was, really) so good at Gin, Pinochle and Hearts that losing at cards is a new experience for me. :)

[QuikSand]

sabotai,

I always find that I remember poker advice better when I understand why the advice is being offered. (Applies outside poker, too) So here's the general thinking on the pair of jacks pre-flop, as best I can articulate it:

You are strong now - very strong, even in early position. You likely have the top hand right now, and will be a solid pick to win the hand. So, as Malificent says above - you want to boost that pot, because it's fairly likely to be yours.

Second, the types of hands that can hurt you in the end are draw hands - people holding flush and straight draws that could work out to improve later. By raising here, you whittle down many of these hands - making it too pricey for them to stick around "just to see the flop."

Most poker advisors will resolutely suggest that you RAISE QQ and JJ for these reasons. You're not as strong as AA or KK, but it's important to try to winnow down your opposition who might have been willing to limp in with a marginal draw hand.


Hope that helps - a bit redundant with what has already been written, but I thought the elucidation might be helpful. (It has been for me, when I've read this sort oof thing before)

[sabotai]

Yeah, thanks to the advise given I now know that JJ and higher are strong hands (which is why I put the cut off there for my "no play first pass" rule above.)

The problem with the poor tables is that it's hard to scare away the flush and straight draws because they'll just call anyway.

And keep the advise coming. The more people who say the same thing the more I know it's the right way to play. :)

(Thinks of going back to playing Pinochle..... :D )

[sabotai]

I just had my worst hour of poker to date. It was insane.

Imagine getting hand after hand of AK, KK, QJ, AQ, JJ, and always getting total crap on the flop. And in the event that I was able to take my hand to the end, someone always had my hand beat by a card.

I won a total of 2 pots. One a moderate size, one pot was very small. By the odds, I should have won so many more. But the cards just didn't turn.

I now have $18.50 in my account. I said before I expected to lose it all as I learned the game, but damn I didn't expect to lose it that fast. Like Worm says in Rounders, "I caught streak of cards you read about." Or something to that effect. That's how I feel right now. :)

[sabotai]

I didn't want to go down like that. I needed revenge. I decided I was either going to go to sleep having lost all $50 of my initial investment, or I was going to win it back. I now have $30.75 in my acount, winning $12.75 in about a half hour.

So, the day wasn't a total lost. When I woke up today, I had $45 in my account, so I'm not happy about losing $14.25 today, but it's better than losing $27, and certainly better than losing all $45.

I did notice in my 2 am - 2:30 am session, I played a lot more disciplined. As long as I do that, I'll be fine. I just have a hard time getting into rhythm. And I guess I just have to accept that there will be times when I have the shittiest luck (like earlier)

[RPI-Fan]

When the straight and flush draws call, in the long run, it's a good thing. It's hard to see that in your head, but in the long run you'll be better off losing more pots, but winning the ones you do for much, much more money (which is what happens when the draws call).

~rpi-fan

[sabotai]

RPI,

Yeah...you're right. But I don't have the bankroll to let the odds play out if they go against me. :)

[sabotai]

Update:

Played a few days ago, pulled in a few bucks to put me at $34

Played for an hour and a half tonight. Saw the poker show on ESPN and figured 1) I want to play now, 2) So will a lot of people who suck.

I may suck...but let's just continue.

I played at 1 table for about 20 minutes. Went 5 bucks over and then had to leave the computer for a bit. This put me at $39.

When I got back, first hand gave be 3 K's, but I lost to a full house. Very next hand, I win a pot on Qs and A's which put me right back at $25 at the table (what I joined the table with).

I told myself if I wasn't at $30 when the clock struck midnight, I would stop ($30 at the table would put me +$10 for the night).
On the midnight hand (11:59 on the clock), I won a sizable pot that put me at $34 overall. I continue to play.

I lose a couple of blinds when I win a moderate pot. Puts me at $35. I lose another round of blinds (plus a call that I folded on the flop) and end up leaving the table with $33.75 (folding the small blind hand I was dealt). So I was +$8.75 at the table. Added to the $5 I won at the other table, I had a $13.75 night. Cool.

This puts me at $47.75 total. Only -$2.25 overall. Pretty sweet considering a few sessions ago I was at $18 and looking at losing all my initial $50 investment. I hope my play continues to be good.

[sabotai]

Another hour of poker today. Still at the 0.5/1 tables, of course. :)

On hand 4 I won a sizable pot on 3 ladies. The pot was $13.50, netted me $10 and put me at $34.

My next pot I wouldn't have taken all the way had I not been last to bet. I was dealt a pair of 8's. Ts, 6s, 3c on the flop. Everyone checks to me. So I bet 50 cents, 2 people fold. The turn is a 9c, and again, it gets checked to me. I sit and think. No one has the straight, or they would have betted. I still don't think anyone has anything. Not wanting to give out a free card, I bet. 1 person folds and that leaves 3 plus me.

4 people are still in it and no one has anything? A 4h comes. Helps no one. It gets checked to me again. I always think the worse is about to happen, so instead of losing another buck, I just check. I win the pot.

Now here's a testiment to how stupid some of these players are. I'm betting the entire way through. Here's what they kept calling. Dipshit #1) Had a pair of 3's on the flop. Dipshit #2) A pair of 4's he got on the river. Dipshit #3) King high card.

Thanks for your money, guys.

The pot was $9.50 (net $7.50). This put me at $41.50.

I then went on a string of bad luck cards and flops. Most of my preflop cards sucked, costing me several blinds. On my last hand before I decided to call it quits, I got a pari of K's with an Ace kicker (I had AK). The other two cards were 8 and 6. I do my best to bet off the straight draws. Then a 9 comes on the turn....uh oh.....The river is a 7. Bingo. I check. Someone bets. Someone raises. I have to fold.

I end up leaving the table with $33. Still that's +$8 for the hour and it places me at $55.75 total, +$5.75 overall. I end play up from my initial investment for the first time since starting.

[sabotai]

Another day, another hour at the table.

Didn't get the card today. Not counting BB checks, I saw the flop 2 or 3 times. Won 1 small pot ($5). Ended the hour at -$2.50.

Total: $53.25
Overall +/- : +$3.25

[sabotai]

Played a short session tonight. Would have played longer but I wanted to make sure I could eat dinner before the Friday Night poker.

I left the table up $6.50 after only 18 hands.

Overall +/- : +$9.75

There's going to be a $15,000 Freeroll tournament on the 16th. Registration ends on the 15th. 2000 raked hands have to be played, so I'm going to try like hell to make it. That's about 150 raked hands per day. That's a lot of raked hands. Looks like the next two weekends I'll be playing a LOT of poker. :)

[sabotai]

Forget the freeroll. Didn't get any poker in during the weekend because of social life. Someones actually having a life can be detrimental. :)

I tried playing two tables at once tonight...eh, just couldn't do it. Once I become a lot more automatic with my preflop decisions, maybe I'll try again. Thought playing 2 tables at once might help me get back into the freeroll, but no. Can't do it. I panic quickly when I have to make quick decisions. That happened already when the clock was ticking on two good preflop hands. :)

Besides, I see it is the 4th and 77 people have already entered the tourney. 4 days! People have 2000 hands in 4 days! Like I had a chance.

Still playing. Will give update later.

[sabotai]

After an hour, I'm +$4 for the night. I was playing and then I got a message saying my computer would shut down in 60 seconds because something closed unexpectedly...whatever...friggin windows.

Back to the tables!

[sabotai]

Struck by n00bie curse. Lost a couple of showdowns with people who had absolutly no business calling their hands to the river, yet did anyway and hit their hand. Just my luck...

I'm down about $5 for the night now. Party Poker then decided to crap out. (GET BETTER SERVERS!). Trying to get back in for the last 5 minutes. No luck.

[sabotai]

Tired of trying to reconnect. Not in a good mood after a few of those bs hands.

Tonight: -$5
Overall: +$4.75

[sabotai]

I guess it comes in waves...

Once again, all I get is total shit for an hour. The hands that I am able to play, were JTs and JJ. Played both, lost both. Every other hand I was dealt was just horrible.

Tonight: -$12.75
Total: -$7.50

[sabotai]

Played for another 1 1/2 hours tonight. Had lots of ups and downs and frankly, I'm exhausted. :)

First I go up a couple of bucks. I move to a new table as the one I'm at becomes bare. I then lose some. Get into negative numbers. I get back to even with trip Q's. No one limped. Only the blinds and I was able to string one of the blinds til the river.

I get back to even overall. I again move to a new table as the one I'm at gets bare. I go down to -$9 overall. Had a couple of hands that were good, just got beat. Well, 1 hand I know I misplayed. The other the guy got lucky and hit his flush on the river.

At the end of the night, when I was even for the session, I land a nice sized pot (for the 0.5/1 tables) on a full house, nines full of aces. I was confident that my trip nines were good enough to win (had pocket nines), but the A on the river closed the deal. That pot sent me back into the positive overall.

Session: +$12.25
Overall: +$4.75

[SunDancer]

Is this over?

[sabotai]

That's weird...I was just looking for this thread to update it. :)

I didn't play for a couple of weeks. I was doing other things.

I've played a coupld of times over the past few days, and my rustiness has shown.

I'm back down under my $50 initial investment.

The first day back was fine, but I COMPLETELY miss played a hand and it cost me nearly $10. I was up $15 at the time. By the time I walked away for the night, I was only up about a $1.

Today, however, was horrendous. I had a hand won easily, but the guy gets his straight on the turn and river cards...that hand cost me nearly $10.

I decided to try my luck at NL poker, but went down $4 after about a half hour. Then I tried out a single-table tournment. Again, I lost 2 big hands because of the river card. I still managed to finish 3rd, however, to give me a +$4, basically getting back the money I lost at the NL table.

At the moment, I'm at -$12.75.

I've basically reconized my biggest weakness is that I can't read other hands when I have a good to great hand myself. I think the problem is I can, but I don't listen to myself and I go ahead anyway since it's the "cheap tables" and they play when they shouldn't....I have to stop doing that.

[sabotai]

Played for about another hour tonight. Lost some change by having to switch tables a few times because they kept dying, but I ended up about +$3 for the hour.

Overall: -$9.25

I liked playing in that single table torunement and may play another tourney or two tomorrow afternoon. I think tournament play suits my style more than ring games. Eventually I'll try my hand at one of those $10 multi-table tournaments whenever I have a day off.

[sabotai]

I played in a NL single table tourney. I finished 6th. 1 hand I folded and should not have early. 2 times I went all in and the player who went all in with me (both times I had more) won because they caught the card they needed on the river. The second time put me out for good.

I then played a limit single table tourney. I got crap for the longest time and ended up down to about 190 total chips. I then got a few good hands and climbed my way back up. I eventually got enough to help 'muslce' out 5th and 4th place. I won a few small pots which kept me in and knocked out 3rd place. I got into a 1-on-1 with a guy who had a good 4000 more chips than me. I kept clawing and clawing but everytime I got close, he would win.

It eventually came down to a hand. I had a pretty good diea that he had 4 three's. But at the same time I know that he had tried to push me out when he had nothing (which backfired a few times). I had a full house, 3's full of Q's, so I went for it. He had the 4 three's. Considering his amount over me at the time (I had about 2000, he had a lot more), I pretty much figured I didn't have much a chance. So I'm happy. A 2nd place finish when at one point I was down to 190 is fine with me. A $15 payout gives me +$9 for the tourney. A -$6 for the other one gives me a +$3 for the night.

Overall: -$6.25

I am loving the tourneys. They're so much more exciting and you can punish bad play more, imo.

[sabotai]

I played two more tourneys.

The first one I went out 6th. I simply did not get any hands and eventually the blinds knocked me down to the point where I had to just close my eyes and go for it all with a pair of Jacks and lost.
(-$6)

The second one was another where I had to climb out of a gutter. Not as bad. With 7 players left, I had 300 and change. I picked myself back up and managed to finish 3rd. (+$4)

Overall: -$8.25

I think I have a problem where I play too tight early on. Once I loosen up a bit to get myself out of a hole, I get back in it. But then again, I got crap in both tournaments. I just got lucky in the 2nd tourney to get back in it when I was dealt KK.

[sabotai]

Another tourney (NL), another 3rd place finish. +$4 for the afternoon. Overall: -$4.25

[sabotai]

I played my first PL tourney tonight. Can't say I care much for it. I'd rather just be in a limit game or no limit. Pot limit is a mixture of the two that I don't care for.

Anyway, about how I did. I finished 3rd. I got crap-o-la the entire time. Especially down the stretch when the blinds got really high. But the best part was the hand before I got knocked out. There were 4 of us left and 2 of us were dangerously low on chips. Lucky me, I was on the BB which put me dangerously low (300 BB put me to 147). I noticed the other guy was all-in. So I folded.

There sat the other guy still in the hand....and I held my breath...and he called. He won the hand. The next hand I once again was dealt crap (73o). Lost the hand and was out (150 SB meant all 147 was in). Thanks to guy who called though, I finished 3rd and with money. +$4

Overall: -$0.25

[sabotai]

As the trend continues, I sat down to play a single-table partypoker tournament right after work. I found a NL one just starting.

It went pretty uneventful for the first half or so. I made a bad call early, but other than losing 100 more chips than I should have, I played decently.

With about 6 players left, a couple of people made some bonehead all-in calls and I found myself 4th in chips with 4 at the table. I played smart though, and climbed up to 2nd when the 4th guy went. So again, I'm guarenteed money.

I flounder around in 3rd for awhile before winning a big pot on two pair (A's and 6's). I stayed in first for the rest of the way, muscling blinds away and eventually winning on a big pot hand. (He went all in when he was down to about 1300 left).

So I win my first tournament! +$19 ($25 winnings - $6 entry).

Overall: +$18.75 Best I've been so far.

[sabotai]

What a horribly bad then wonderfully up day at the tables it was.

First tourney: Misplayed an early hand. I was up against a guy who wasn't doing well, in that he was playing horribly. But as luck would have it, when _I_ finally get a hand to play, he has the nuts (but didn't bet like he did....anyway). It only costed me about 100 chips. I was down to 675 and not too worried. But as the game went on (quickly), I was down to 300. I went for it on a pair of 9's, the other person had J's. I finish 6th. -$6

Second tourney: Nothing. I was dealt nothing. THe best hand I had all game in this one was a pair of 5's, and I had to throw those away when the guy before me went all-in (pre-flop). The rest of the game, I waited and waited and waited...but I just got nothing. The blinds got up to 50/100 with 7 people still in (usually it's down to 4 or 5 at the most from the games I've played.) One guy goes out. The blinds get me and I have to try to make something happen with an A6 suited (best hand since 5's, no joke). I lose out when the guy hits 10's on the river (kings on the board, no A or 6). I finish 6th. -$6

Third Tourney: This one starts out much faster than the last one. 3 people are gone by the time the blinds get to 25/50. I sit back and watch people get picked off 1 by 1. I jump in from time to time to win a pot here and there. My early pots were with very weak hands for very weak pots. But the pots paid the blinds and eventually it came down to 5 people. We all had pretty much the same amount. These players are aggressive from what I've seen, and kind of loose, so I sit back, keep doing what I'm doing. Then it happens.

3 people, all 3 all-in. I think great. This will land me ito at least 3rd and money...no. All 3 split the pot. Funny stuff.

1 more goes to bring the table to 4. My luck has improved and I'm getting decent hands. Eventually the guy next to me goes all-in when I have trip 10's. There's a K on the table but that's it. I doubt he has pocket K's. He doesn't and he goes home. Down to 3.

I hit an unlucky streak. I get nothing worth playing even at this point. The blinds weaken me down to about 600 chips (100/200 blinds). Then it suddenly stops, does a complete 180 and I win 3 straight pots putting me back into it. As we keep exchanging pots the blinds go up...and up again. We're sitting on 250/500 blinds. I get a decent hand and play it. So does someone else. I get a great flop giving me a full house. He bets, I call...he bets, I call...he checks, I bet he folds.

This put me in a good lead and I just pushed against them until that had no choice but to go in with what they had and I won a few hands later. +$19 (single-table tourney win #2)

Plus, I played 2 more single table tourneys last night after my win and I finished 3rd in both of those: +$8 (+$4 a piece)
Today: +$7
Overall: +$33.75

Single Table Tourney record: 2-1-6-4 (1st-2nd-3rd-Non)

(Funny how every single time that I leave a toruney without money, it's been in 6th place...)

[RPI-Fan]

I've got my PartyPoker account set up, and am +$16.10, not including a $25 bonus I got. So I put in $50, and am at $91.10 right now. I'm going to continue playing two $.50/1 tables simulatneously - it seems to work pretty well for me.

~kyle

[sabotai]

I tried to play two tables simultaneously and I didn't like it at all. I didn't do too good. My reaction to cards hasn't gotten 'automatic' enough for me to do that I guess. I was hovering around even for a long time at the .50/1 tables. I just couldn't seem to keep it going.

My style is much more suited to tournament play, obviously since the complete turnaround I did from a few days ago. At -$12 I started playing single-table tourneys and have jumped to +$33 ($45 difference in just a couple of days).

Hopefully I can keep this going and start using poker to pay off a bill or two each month.

[RPI-Fan]

Tournament hold 'em and ring-game hold 'em are as different as draw and stud. Some guys have it for one, but can't do shit on the other. Just how it is.

~kyle

[RPI-Fan]

(For me, I'm alright at ring games, but awful at tourneys)

[sabotai]

Finally got back to playing tonight.

1st Tourney: When it came down to 3 players, I went on a hot streak that ended the instant 3rd place was eliminated. I ended up finishing 2nd. +$9

2nd Tourney: Made a huge mistake early, was able to hang in there. There was 4 left, one was all-in, and won the pot. I eventually got eliminated. I finished 4th, so so close to finishing at least 3rd. -$6

Tonight: +$3

Overall: +$48 (I'm not counting my +/- of the bankroll anymore. This i show much +/- I have won in just single table tourneys.)
Single Table Tourney Record: 2-2-6-5

[sabotai]

Two more tournaments. I have to start playing more regularly. I think the big breaks are effecting my play.

I finished the 1st tourney in 5th place. I made a HUGE mistake. Just one that...I'm not going ot tell you about. That's how embarrised I am. An anology would be when your playing Madden or NCAA and you go for it on 4th down knowing that you shouldn't be! But you do anyway because the payoff is huge if you succeed...and then you don't and you kick yourself for such a stupid call. That's basically what I did.

Second one was better. But once the blinds got up there, I my hands started to dry up. Still managed to finish 3rd. I can point to 2 minor mistake I made, so hopefully I won't make them again.

Tonight: -$2

Overall: +$46
Single Table Tourney Record: 2-2-7-6

[sabotai]

2 more tournaments.

1st one, the only hand I had was a flush I got on the river. It got checked around on the turn so I was able to see it for free and I got lucky. The rest of the tourney, nothing. I lose out at 4th place. Arg! -$6

2nd tourney, I hovered around 500-800 most of the way, winning small pots here and there. Then I landed a few good pots that put me over 1700. I lasted until 3rd place. +$4

Tonight: -$2

Overall: -$44
Record: 2-2-8-7

Question for anyone reading. I play at party poker and I do not like their single table tourneys. My complaint is that the blinds go up too fast, too high. When it gets into the 100's, it basically becomes a crap shot.

Is there another online site that has more reasonable blinds for its tourneys. I tired of partypoker essentially trying to end the tourneys as quickly as possible.

[sabotai]

Update: I am packing up and moving. I'm leaving partypoker and I'm going to start playing on Poker Stars. So it'll be at least a few days before I play again (time for money to cash out of Partypoker and put it into Poker Stars)

[sabotai]

My first day on Poker Stars!

It sucked at first. I sit down to enjoy one of their really cheap tables (.25/.50). I quickly lost 5 bucks on some bad moves. -$5

I join one of their Sit & Go tables (single and two-table tourneys). I quickly get bounced in the first one. I was really off my game. I got behind quickly and went all-in on a pair of A's. I lost to trip kings. (I think...). Anyway -$5.50 (Only .50 buy in. I think it's to avoid giving out FPP's...but anyway...)

Second Tourney. I last a little longer. I kept getting pairs and having them go bust. I get a pair of 10's when I'm down a lot and go All-In. Someone has a Q and two Q's come on the board. -$5.50

Thrid Tourney. Doing much better now. Getting into a groove. I played too loose in the first two tourneys and forced myself to fold hands I might otherwise have called. I essentially needed to calm myself down. I patiently wait for pots to come to me. I hover between 1k and 2k most of the tourney as a player here and there gets picked off. I find myself sitting with 4 others (Most of the time, 5th in chips)

And here we get to the part where I am liking Poker Stars MUCH more than PartyPoker. Had this tourney been on Party Poker, we'd be seeing blinds in the range of 200/400 and 400/800. As it was, the BB was still under 100 (it reached 100 before 5th was knocked out). We could actually play poker and not hastely try to stay ahead of the blinds.

Anyway, the play continues as I still basically try to wait some of it out. What started to get me ahead was a hand where I caught a flush on the river (as we both just checked it to the river). I went all-in and he folded. THis put me to 3k. He later said he should have called me (there was a possible straight on the river as well). I wanted so bad for him to call there and wanted to tell him. But I didn't want anyone calling me on an all-in bluff so I just let him wonder...

A few hands later and I'm down to 1.5k as someone else did the same to me. :)

5th place goes. I survive in 4th place as one of the players (the one who wanted to call my flush) gets his stack chopped away. He goes out 4th and I'm in the money. Me and one player have about the same stack (2k) while one of the other players has by far the most. I took my little share here and there as me and the other 2k player went for his chips. He got him down a good deal and I go head to head with the guy. I honestly forget what it is I had, but I knew I had the better hand, and I take the last 3k of his chips. 6.5k vs. 6.5k head to head. I took the early lead when he tried to bluff me. It went back and forth, but he never took the lead. Eventually, when I had 5k more than him, he went all-in and I called. He had an AJ, I had an AK. AK and small card came on the flop, a J on the turn, garbage on the river. My K's beat his J's. +$17

So after ALL of that. After a good 2-3 hours of playing poker, overall I am up a whole buck!

Overall: +$1
Ring Games: -$5
Single Table Tourneys: +$6

(Poker Stars) Singe Table Tourney Record: 1-0-0-2

(I won't be playing on PartyPoker anymore, so I won't list those records anymore. But I will from time to time add them as a career record)

There's a $3 multi-table tourney tonight at 9:30...these are pretty regular tourneys, so I'm not joining tonight. Yesterday's ended at 3:40 AM and I have work tomorrow. :) These tournaments happen daily, so screw it. I'll save those late night poker sessions for the weekends.

[sabotai]

I signed up for the $3 No Limit tournement on Poker Stars. It starts at 11:30 PM (about 12 minutes from now) so it might be a long night for me. :)

11 Minutes to go and 954 people have registered so far. 960...962...by the time it's done, it'll be well over 1000. Which is good, because that spreads the winnings down a lot of spots. Finishing in the top 100 should get you some money...how much is the question. Not much unless you are in the top 10. Either way, it's a cheap, multi-table tournement for me to gain some multi-table tournment experience. And it's only $3, so if I don't place, then so what.

9 Minutes to go, 1002 people signed.

[sabotai]

4 minutes to go, 1134 registered

[sabotai]

Tournament starts with 1359 people.

[sabotai]

First big hand. I got a pair of A's off the flop and someone goes all-in. He has less than half and he's been bluffing the entire time. So I call. He's got a flush draw (clubs). The turn and the river is a heart and diamond and I go up to 2000.

Second big hand. I got pocket queens. I get another Q on the flop. An Ace also lands. Someone lays down a big bet and I'm guessing he got a pair of A's. Someone calls. I call. Garbage on the turn. They both check to me, which basically tells me they both have just a pair or two pair. I lay down a $200 bet and they both call. On the river comes another Ace. I got my full house, Queens full of aces. But do one of them have Aces full of queens? I go all in. They both call. No, they both were holding AJ. I take the huge pot that puts me up to $5,300+ with the blinds at $15/$30. I can just sit on this pile in front of me and wait for the pocket high cards and let the blinds be damned. :)

1055 left in it.

[sabotai]

Big hand. I'm holding A8, and A falls on the flop and someone puts down a $200 bet. I call. An 8 falls on the turn. Another big bet, I call. Q on the river and he bets over 1000. I wanted to call. I think he was only holding an A, but he might have hit AQ on the river...didn't want to take the chance. I fold and I'm down to $4,900

870 left in it.

[sabotai]

On our first break. A couple of blinds and a couple of pre-flop call worthy hands that got me nothing have lowered my stack to $4,410, second most at the table ($4,800)

651 players left. Which means I'll at least finish in the top half, so that's SOMETHING for my first multi-player tournament.

At the break, 15,005 is the biggest stack, 3131 is the average and the smallest is 60. I figure as long as I stay above the average, I'll be in good shape. I haven't had a good hand in about 30 minutes though, so hopefully, I'm due. :)

[sabotai]

Also, blinds have increased to $75/$150 after the break.

[sabotai]

Big Hand. I get dealt KQ offsuit and limp in off the button. Q comes on the flop. Some puts down a $150 bet, 1 other calls with me. K on the turn. It gets checked to me, I bet $300, both call. J on the river. Checked to me, I bet $750, both fold. That pot put me up to $5,535.

1h 21m into it, 507 are left.

Shortly after that hand, blinds go to $100/$200.

[sabotai]

Big Hand. I'm dealt Q9 offsuit on the SB. Only one person limps in and I throw in the extra 100 (BB checks). I flop high pair and am first to bet. I bet $200, gets called by both. Garbage on the turn, I check, they both check. Garbage on the river. I bet $200, one folds, the other calls. I win with my pair of ladies. This put me to about $6,200

Very next hand, on the button. I get dealt AA. I raise it to $400, and two people call. On the flop is a J9 and a low card. No, you won't stay in and try to get a straight draw people. I put down a bet of $1,400, effectly challenging both other to put half their chips in. They both fold. I go up to $7,210.

1h 40m into it, blinds are $100/$200 with a $25 ante. 359 people are still in it. $22,305 is the highest stack, $50 is the smallest and $5,726 is the average. As I typed this, it went down to 354 left.

If I make it to 99th place, I'll win money (about $6). If I make it to 18th, that'll be $36. Winner gets just a little over $1,000.

[sabotai]

After going through the blinds and adding in the ante, I'm down to $6,710 already. This ante really adds up. :)

[sabotai]

299 left, I made it to the top 300! Limits gone up to 200/400 with 25 ante...I have to make a move at some point soon to get back ahead.

About 10 minuts ago I got moved to a new table. I liked the one where I was because I was the chip leader. Now I'm in th emiddle with several at or above $15k. I need to start winning some pots to stay in this one.

[sabotai]

The blinds have knocked me down to $5,560 already. And I'm about to get pounded by them, this time with the 200/400 blinds.

264 people left.

Just as I typed that, someone with $650 (or so) left went all-in when I was dealt AJh on the BB. He had 63s. I win when an A falls on the flop and garbage comes on the turn. Puts me up to a little over $6,500.

[sabotai]

And time. It's the second break. I got a T9d on the BB. I check it with 2 limpers + SB. On the flop comes QJ. Someone puts down a $400 bet (which is the min right now). I call with my open-ended straight. Garbage on the turn, I check he checks. Garbage on the river, I check he checks....I wanted to bluff so bad. I wanted to just say "To hell with it" and go all in to get him to fold...I'm so spineless. He wins with Ace high.

I have $4,712, which is roughly half of the average ($9,310). The highest is $34,650 and the smallest is $530. There are 218 people left.

To be honest, since I've only played ring and single-table tourneys, I thought my strategy would be so far off base that'd I lose pretty quickly. I'm actually proud of myself with how I adjusted. True, this is far from a tournament filled with quality players, but I'm happy with my performance. I'll be estatic is I make it to the top 100 (mainly because I'll get atleast a little something in return). As it is right now, my place in the top 200 is almost certainly assured. Let's see if I can hang on.

After the break, blinds to 300/600 and ante at 50. Ouch.

[sabotai]

Down to $3,262. I caught KQd and limped in. I get a draw straight on the flop (9 and J). I call the $600 bet banking on this guy not having anything or a low pair. Nothing comes on the turn. Checked. Nothing on the river...he bets over $1000 and I leave. I have feeling this isn't going to last much longer.

[sabotai]

Damn, after getting hit by the blinds, I'm down to $2,162. 190 people left.

[sabotai]

Well, I'm out. I got dealt AJd and went all-in. Someone called with A7 offsuit. He got his 7 on the turn. (We both got an A on the flop). I finish the tournament 178th.

[QuikSand]

Nice job in the tournament... I'll still be reading, as I'm interested in your perceptions of the PS setup. I, myself, am just too reluctant to give up the low-quality competition that PartyPoker delivers.

[sabotai]

Thanks QS, I had a lot of fun in the tournament and will make it a weekly thing (they hold them all the time, but Friday nights seem to be the real time I can put aside several hours for a 1300+ person tournament)

[sabotai]

I played in a $1 No Limit multi table tourney. I went down early when my trip K's got beat by a full house. I went from 1200 to 800 on that hand. I only won one large pot on a straight I got on the turn, but since I was down on chips, I didn't win much (I had 1100 after the hand)

That was about it. I had my stack slowly go down until with only 475 left, I went all-in with Q9d off the BB (with the BB being 150, I was down to about 350 after the BB bet, so I pretty much had to).

I still managed to finish 429th out of 1200+ even though I won just one big pot.

[dixieflatline]

Sabotai,

I really love this thread and I personally have gained a lot of poker wisdom from reading the poker thread here at FOFC(especially your thead and Radii's old thread). Dissecting the big hands you go in on especially when you explain your play or what kind of read you are getting from your opponents.

Now a question from a person who has never been in a poker touney. Friday night it seemed like you got off to a great start winning a couple of big hands and having a much higher chip count then average so I am assuming you were the high stack at the table for a while. Did you have any success in leaning on some of the lower stacks? What is your strategy in reguards to that when you play in tourneys?

[sabotai]

"Friday night it seemed like you got off to a great start winning a couple of big hands and having a much higher chip count then average so I am assuming you were the high stack at the table for a while. Did you have any success in leaning on some of the lower stacks? "

Actually, no. I didn't have much success with leaning on people because while I did have a high stack, it wasn't high enough to really do any leaning. For most of the first hour, I had between $5,000 and $6,000, and everyone else at the table had between $1,000 and $3,000 for most of that time. So I didn't really get a chance to lean on someone.

I got a streak of bad cards for about a half hour there, too, which allowed a couple of the good players at the table to catch up to me.

"What is your strategy in reguards to that when you play in tourneys?"

I play tight. Really tight. Probably too tight. I play aggresive when I have something, but probably not aggresive enough.

When you play in single-table tourneys, it's different than multi-table tourneys. In single table tourneys (at Poker Stars), 9 people sit down and the top 3 win money. My strategy is simple. Get to 3rd place. This is why so many of my single table tourneys have ended with me in 3rd, instead of 2nd and 4th. When I play single-table tourneys, I play to finish 3rd. Now, when I have gotten that far, a lot of times I able to take what I have and turn it into 1st or 2nd. Probably more dealing with the low level of competition than anything great I'm doing.

(The 2 Poker Stars single-table tourneys I played it, I did not follow this strat, and I ended up leaving those tourneys early).

This strat got me in trouble the other night when I finished 178th. When I got in the top 300, I went into my "survivor" mode. (The mode I spend most of my single table tourney games in). THis probably ended up costing me money. I tried to coast to a top 100 finish, and before I knew it, the blinds were big and I had a small stack, which caused me to go all-in with cards I probably would not have (AJ and AT, suited or not, for some reason have never turned out good for me...I don't think I've ever made a good hand when dealt those cards. Just a personal bias I guess...anyway).

In the two multi-table tourneys I have played, I've learned one important lesson. There is no difference between 178th, 429th or 1,238th. They all finish with no money. At no point in a multi-table tourney should I go into "survivor" mode. At least, not until I'm at the last table and there are 5 or 6 people left and I see a chance where I can coast to 4th or 3rd and don't have a realistic chance of winning. That has been my downfall in both those tourneys. In those two tourneys, I should have gone all-in earlier. A KJ unsuited is a better hand when you have 6k than a AJ suited hand when you have 2k when the blinds are (say..) 300/600. The 6k hand will attract fewer callers, while the 2k hand opens you up to several calls (Increasing the chance of someone turning nothing into a flush on the turn and river, or a low card straight...). When you go all-in, you want to hurt the caller if they lose. On top of that, if you wait until you are down to 2k, and you win your all-in bet, you still will only have 4k (if you go one-on-one). And that still leaves you deep in a hole. So basically, you can't wait that long. (I learned that too).

Hope this helps (and I hope I didn't say anythign stupid. QS, Radii, or anyone else, please correct me if I said anything stupid. :) )

[dixieflatline]

Intersting stuff. Looking back on things it looks like the better play might be to enter the smaller tourney or ring games. Getting in the top 100 from 1300 isn't great odds and even then it doesn't seem the payout is that great unless you are at the last table. For over two hours of good play you walked away not quite in the money but had you could have played at least a couple smaller tourneys or a bunch of ring games. Do you agree with that or do you like the big tourneys better?

[RPI-Fan]

For me, this is the break down...

Single Table Tourneys: More business-like, lesser competition, better bang for the buck.

Multi-Table: More fun, great mix of players (overall higher quality), and more of an entertainment thing than a money thing.

[sabotai]

As RPI said, the multi-table tournmanets are more fun. Besides, it was only $3 and $1, so it's not like I'm taking a financial hit. I mainly joined them for two reasons. 1) They are fun, and if I make it, by some off chance, to the final table, it's actually quite a lot of money. 2) To gain experience playing multi-table tourneys for when I want to take a stab at the more expensive, much smaller (200-400 people range, with payouts fo rlike the top 20 or so people) multi-table tourneys.

Gaining experience is sometimes much more valuable than the money you would have won elsewhere. Take my first real dive into real money play. I lost $21 my first time out at a ring table. But with the experience I gained from that game, it was well worth the $21.

[dixieflatline]

Ok this makes a lot more sense to me now. Good luck in future plays and I look forward to more posts in the future :)

[Vegas Vic]

Originally posted by sabotai
I tried to play two tables simultaneously and I didn't like it at all. I didn't do too good. My reaction to cards hasn't gotten 'automatic' enough for me to do that I guess.

It takes a lot of practice and a lot of hard work, but it can be done. Currently, I play 3 tables at once, and I'm very pleased with the results.

[dixieflatline]

Ok Sab sorry be be a thread jack but I have to ask the question.

Vegas Vic if you are playing three tables at once I assume you aren't getting a read on any players at the tables. I haven't even played online just with friends for very low stakes and predictable they are very loose but one player(besides me) is tight. So to a casual observer the table is loose but if you were in against the tight player it's going to make a big difference.

[Vegas Vic]

Originally posted by dixieflatline
Vegas Vic if you are playing three tables at once I assume you aren't getting a read on any players at the tables.

That's correct. I just play tight/aggressive, and it seems to work out fine. I don't do anything special, just take advantage of the horrible play of most low limit online players.

[dixieflatline]

Interesting. Are you making more money than concentrating on just one higher limit table, or tourneys? I guess that would make sense. If you are only in a couple of hands an hour then three tables does make sense. I guess this just goes to show how bad the play is at low limit tables. Are you playing at partypoker mostly then?

[sabotai]

dixie, when you play at a cheap table, where the vast majority of the players you play are horrible players (like me. :) ), you should just play the cards you have and ignore what everyone else does (I'm usually watching TV or a movie while I play to make I sure I don't pay attention). This is because horrible players are, for the most part, completely unpredictable. They're impossible to read accurately (all the time), because they simply don't know what they should and should not do.

The only difference is when you play tournaments. You'll be spending the next 30 minutes or so with the same players, and SOME of them are easy to read after watching them for a little bit. But generally, at ring tables, people are leaving and joining all the time. Best to just look away and simply play your hand.

I recommend you buy Sklansky's books on poker if you have not already). They're all great and will give you a good idea of what to play and how to play it.

On that note, anyone know a good site or book for Omaha and Stud strategy? I want to get into those games as well (and I've mostly focused on Hold 'Em to this point)

[Radii]

http://erh.homestead.com/omaha.html

I have found this very useful when trying to maintain disclipline in Omaha tournaments online. There is also a system for determining starting hands to play for Omaha Hi/Lo linked from that site(the link I posted discusses only Omaha Hi)

[sabotai]

Hmm. I wonder how effective these systems really are. I wrote a little program for the Hold 'Em system and am going to try it out on the funny money tables to see how it goes.

(EDIT)

Well that was pointless...everyone at the funny money tables are just raising like made pre-flop so screw it. :) But it does seem to keep in line with what you should and should not play.

[Vegas Vic]

Originally posted by dixieflatline
Interesting. Are you making more money than concentrating on just one higher limit table, or tourneys? I guess that would make sense. If you are only in a couple of hands an hour then three tables does make sense. I guess this just goes to show how bad the play is at low limit tables. Are you playing at partypoker mostly then?

Exactly. By playing 3 3/6 tables at once, I get the equivalent of playing 15/30 in a real casino, but against horrible players, with a lower standard deviation. Online, I can usually get about 200 to 250 hands per hour on three tables. Contrast that with 30 hands per hour in a hand dealt game. It requires a lot of practice and concentration, and split second decision making is very important. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone who doesn't have a lot of experience. Right now, I'm averaging about $30 per hour, playing about 50 hours per week. I split my sessions into 3 hour increments, so I don't get burned out. I also take Sunday off.

[dixieflatline]

Standard deviation is music to my ears. That sounds like a very good system you have Vic.

Hmm. I wonder how effective these systems really are. I wrote a little program for the Hold 'Em system and am going to try it out on the funny money tables to see how it goes.

Sab,
Seems to me this would be a useful thing. Do you enter your cards and/or flop and it gives you odds of making a hand or is it a Monte Carlo or something like that? It seems like something like that would be a useful thing to have while playing.

[sabotai]

"I also take Sunday off."

Slacker! ;)

"Seems to me this would be a useful thing. Do you enter your cards and/or flop and it gives you odds of making a hand or is it a Monte Carlo or something like that? It seems like something like that would be a useful thing to have while playing."

If you follow the link posted above, there's a link on there to a point system for Hold 'Em. The guy came up with a system like "Add 10 points if your hand is paired", "Add 16 if you have an Ace, 14 for King, etc." The guy says that he used a program to determine that every hand that has 30 or more points has at least a 17% chance of winning the pot at a 10 player table if all hands are played the the end (10% being the average for all hands). So I made a little program that tells me how many points each hand is by his system (does not give me odds).

IO tried it at a play money table, but as I said, everyone was just raising liek crazy. But looking at the point system and what hands you would need, it's basically the same pre-flop strategy that you woudl get anywhere.

Today I'm going to make a program that goes through all possible pre-flop hands and grade them using the above point system and have it output the "playable" hands and then compare it to the pre-flop strategy in Sklansky's books. (To see if there are any differences). I'll post the results here later.

[sabotai]

Here is Sklansky's pre-flop strat. (I'll try to explain this the best I can)

First, he puts hands into groups. Here are the groups:

Group 1: AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AKs (the small 's' denotes that the cards are suited, no 's' means they are offsuit)
Group 2: TT, AQs, AJs, KQs, AK
Group 3: 99, JTs, QJs, KJs, ATs, AQ
Group 4: T9s, KQ, 88, QTs, 98s, J9s, AJ, KTs
Group 5: 77, 87s, Q9s, T8s, KJ, QJ, JT, 76s, 97s Axs, 65s (The 'x' means any card 2-9.)
Group 6: 66, AT, 55, 86s, KT, QT, 54s, K9s, J8s, 75s
Group 7: 44, J9, T9, 33, 98, 64s, 22, Kxs, T7s, Q8s, 53s, 43s
Group 8: 96s, 85s, J7s, 74s, A9, Q9, J8, T8, 42s, 32s, 87, 76, 65, 54, K9

Note, these hands are actually all ranked in value. Sklansky ranks AA as th ebest, then KK through to 5. AKs, then TT is 6th, AQs is 7th...99 is 11th, JTs is 12th...T9s is 17th and so on. For the purpose of this little overview, I don't think it matters.

In Early Position Call with any hand in Groups 1-4
In Middle Position, Call with any hand in Groups 1-5
In late position, start off with a raise with any hand in Groups 1-3 (or at least call) and call with any hand in Groups 4-6.

If someone has raised before you, only call with hands in Groups 1-2. If you are in late position, always reraise with a hand in Group 1.

If there has been a raise in front of you, call with the hands in Groups 1-4. If there has been two raises, only call with hands in Groups 1 and maybe 2.

If no one has called and you are in middle position, raise with hands in Groups 1-3 (but only if no one has called yet.)

This was a VERY simplistic overview of the pre-flop strat described in Hold 'Em Poker by David Sklansky. His strat has a bunch of conditionals (which is where groups 7 and 8 come in, if you were wondering) so I really suggest you get it (and his other books).

And I'm actually very happy this discussion came up. As I go over the strategy stuff, I have realized that over the last month or two, my play has become EXTREMELY tight and probably explains my recent slump.

[dixieflatline]

Intersting to compare the point value to Sklansky's system(which I have seen before). Sklansky seems to value pairs more than connectors which the point system seem to perfer.

TT(32 points)
AQs(35 points)

I think Sklansky might be right as TT has the slight odds over AQs

[Vegas Vic]

Sab, that's a very good summary of Sklansky's hand ratings. I would also offer the following advice -- checking and calling are rarely (although sometimes) correct holdem strategy. For the most part, you should be raising or folding pre-flop. For instance, if you have AK, and someone raises ahead of you, don't call, but re-raise. Cap it if you have AA or KK. In higher limit games, it's important to mix it up a bit, so your more observant opponents don't pick up your pre-flop strategy. That's when you'll occasionally want to open raise with a hand like 98 suited (don't do it very often, because it will cost you some EV, but it's good to do once in a while). Also, you can occasionally limp in with AA or KK, then pop it for 3 bets if an aggressive player raises behind you. This is especially useful in ultra-tight games, where your open raise with AA is likely to buy the blinds (but you'd rather win more money).

In short, having a solid pre-flop strategy, but mixing it up a bit from time to time, seems to work best.

I enjoy your dynasty posts. Keep up the good work.

[sabotai]

You're right dixie. I've decided to not even bother with doing the comparison to the point system. I think the whole idea of the point system was to just create a system that got you all the 17+% cards and not worry about ranking. Besides, it's too simplistic a strat to really be all that effective.

[sabotai]

Update:

A few days ago, i play in a few single table tourneys. I finish 7th and 3rd. -$2 for the two combined.

With the 7th finish, I just couldn't get anything going and I had about 900 left. I get a pair of 9's and just go for it, not wanting to get too far behind. Someone calls who happened to be holding Q's. Thems the breaks.

With the 3rd place finish, me and one other player pretty much destroyed the whole table. When it got donw to 5 players left, it was me and him way on top. But then...it happened. Luck. Two of the 3 players left started winning hands they had no business playing in the first place and eventually me and the other guy were knocked down to 3rd and 4th in chip count. The 5th guy got pushed out along the way so there are 4 left.

Here's where it gets kind of wierd. Whenever me and the other guy would fold our hands pre-flop, the two were always playing. The seating alternated. Me - Lucky #1 - Other Guy - Lucky #2. And it seemed liek they put in just enough for them to even out after the hand...then one of the guys got lucky, again, hitting his hand on the flush to take a bunch off me and the Other Guy. At this point, the one who was way ahead went head to head with Lucky #2, and Lucky #2 lost all his chips to Lucky #1. Now this gave a HUGE lead to Lucky #1 and eventually, me and the Other Guy got forced out, me first.

If I didn't know any better...and I do. So it was probably just a fluke. But still...the conspiracy lover in me... :)

Anyway, the next day I tried a NL ring table and after an hour, was down a little over $10, hitting me limit.

Rough times.

But today, with the overview of the strat stuff, I go into a ring game. Cheap table, .25/.50, mainly so I get get my grounding again. I've felt very...I don't know. Not confident in my play lately.

And this time, I come out firing. Thanks to the strat stuff, I realized my problem has been I've bene playing too tight and not aggresive enough.

Well, besides losing money on the blinds, I lost one big hand (which amounted to a $1...see, reason why I jumped down to tables to grab my self-confidence back. No real financial risk :) ). I got a J9s in middle position and raised the sucker. I got crap on the flop (My suit was spades, it flopped three hearts). Someone comes out betting, and then someone raises. I'm thinking one of them hit their flush. I bail. (I didn't see the end of the hand, so I don't knwo if they actually did.)

I did win one cheap hand with A's. I won it because of a Q kicker I was holding. Two A's on the table, I had QJ offsuit in my hand. That put me up to $18.75 (from $17.25, started with $20).

Two hands later...

Then, it happened. AA. And, I'm on the SB. Someone raises, I fire back with a reraise. He then raises again, and then I call (because I don't want to get too out of hand, besides, the game wouldn't let me raise again). To my surprise, 2 others call in too.

The flop: T A T. Oh man. I flop the full house, Aces full of tens. I start off betting, the two callers fold and the raisers raises again! What does he have? TT? No, I don't think so. I'm guessing he probably has a T or an A, and he's wetting his pants over either having trips or two pair. So, I of course reraise back to him. The old me probably would have just called. In fact, I probably would have checked before, trying to slowplay it. Slowplay has worked for me in tourney play. In the 3rd place finish, I slowplayed 2 people right out of the tournament.

But no. Not this time. This guy's on my line. Whatever it is he has, he thinks it's worth raising it all the way to the river. Fuck slowplay, this guy is going to call or raise whatever I bet, so I raise each time the game lets me, as does he.

The turn is a J. Good, maybe he hit high two pair, or filled a Tens full of Jacks or Jacks full of Tens. Either way, I win. This is where I get disappointed. He didn't have much money. I bet, he raises, I raise back and he's now all in. I don't get an after fiver raise fest to line my pockets more. I of course, call.

My heart leaps out when the river comes...T...oh shit...If he just has one T, I lose. He's all-in so we show our cards after the river. I turn over AA, he turns over A3...Yes, my friends, he was raising like a madman with an A3, offsuit. Well, because of the A and the three T's on the table, he ended up with Tens full of Aces, but he was never even in it.

I go up to $23.60 after this hand. Yeah, it seems like pennies compared to the description I gave. I left shortly after, cutting it short because I plan on going out soon (and wanted to leave time to tell the tale. :D)

[sabotai]

(I broke this up into two posts because it got quite long)

So, dixie, if you want more advice, here it is. Review Sklansky and other's strats once or twice a week. Even if you think you know it by heart. What happened to me was I did not, and I slowly tightened up and went on a huge slump because of it. It's easy enough to remember to raise AA, but I also won $1.50 on a pair of A's I won because I called a hand I probably would not have before (QJ offsuit). Chances are a few days ago, I would not have even played that hand. Thanks to this discussion, I did. And because of it, I won $1.50 more than I would have if we didn't.

Why wouldn't have I played that hand? Because I was in early-middle position, my play regressed so much that in early and middle position, I wasn't playign anything but high pairs or high suited cards. Yes, it got that bad. I got so afraid of losing money that I refused to play anythign but the best hands :)

So that's a second bit of advise I have. Do not be afraid to lose money. Do not even be afraid to lose (relatively) a lot of money. Smart play with make you a winner over time. Going back to the beginning of this thread, I was down to more than $40 down overall at one point. Even though I'm still down more than $10 since my move to Poker Stars, I'm still up overall since starting.

It may not seem a lot ot most people. Vic makes more than me per hour on average than I do in a good week. :) But you have to start somewhere. It's not the money I care about, which is an attitude I forgot to maintain. $10...$30 is not a lot to even my poor ass. I started worrying bout losing $10 in a session, or not placing in a tourney and losing the $5.50...it caused me to tighten up so much, that winning was pretty much impossible. I won that single-table tourney because when I was 3rd in chips (by far) to the two others, I loosened up and took them both on. I stopped caring. I wasn't trying to out last 2nd place. I was down a long way to both of them, so I just started firing. And I won!

So, after this long winded post, if you want to take two things away from this (and judging by the size of this posts you probably deserve more...but :) ), take this. One, make sure you review strats all the time to make sure you are not tightening up or loosening up. And two, make sure you play unafraid to lose.

[sabotai]

Updated stats (just Poker Stars)

Ring Games: -$12
Single-Table Tourney: 1-0-1-3 (+$4)
Multi-Table Tourney: 178th out of 1359, 429th out of 1200+ (-$4)

Overall: -$12

[Vegas Vic]

Originally posted by sabotai
Even though I'm still down more than $10 since my move to Poker Stars, I'm still up overall since starting.

It may not seem a lot ot most people. Vic makes more than me per hour on average than I do in a good week. :) But you have to start somewhere.

Absolutely right. I started small and got my head handed to me numerous times as I took my lumps. You are going about it the correct way. Start small, read, study, and most importantly -- play. There's no substitute for experience. To be really successful at poker requires a lot of effort, and a lot of thinking about the game, even when you're not playing. I have no doubt that you'll become a very tough player in short order.

Keep up the good work.