It's Official...Tim Howard joins Man U. [Archive]

MIJB#19

07-15-2003, 11:42 AM

Originally posted by Darkiller
as far the value of the MLS, I do agree with you MIJB, it is not bullshit anymore but here we are talking about replacing plain and simple one of the most popular goalies in the world... Barthez has never been seen as the world's #1 over here in the NLs. Being French might help there a lot too though...
It could be because he never beat our national team on pens, unlike the famous Francesco Toldo, Taffarel and Peter Schmeichel did. Lama's heroics have been forgotten due to the black vs. white issue at Euro'96.

Concidering the work permit, Man Utd signed Raymond van der Gouw (Dutch goalkeeper) about 8 years ago. Van der Gouw has never been on the national team.
Having that in mind, I'm really puzzled how it works IRL, does the rule only apply to those coming from unproven countries? (Chances are the MLS would not be considered a proven league to English football standards.)

airulf

07-15-2003, 12:03 PM

Anyone have some information on another US goalie, "Matt Jordan"? He is competing to be the first choice in the upcomming season for my local team Odense Boldklub.

SirFozzie

07-15-2003, 12:11 PM

Normally, to sign a player from a country outside the European Union would require a work permit (due to EU laws, you cannot keep a person from working due to the fact he comes from another EU nation)

At first, Howard needed a Work Permit because he comes from the US, a country outside of the EU (of course)

They did a little research, and found that his mother was born in Hungary, and that qualified him for a Hungarian passport, which helped his appeal for the Work Permit.

He was granted that work permit, and signed a four year deal with ManYoo. Now, to keep the work permit, he'd have to play in 3/4's of ManYoo's games (that he is healthy for). However, I think Hungary will be part of the EU by then, so he will no longer need a work permit.

IF he becomes a starter for ManYoo, United will have made an absolute steal of a deal. For approximately 2 million pounds up front and an extra 1.2-1.5 million pounds when he becomes a regular goalie for them, they will have a goalie good enough for ManYoo's standards. If in a couple years he's still #2 or #3, watch him get loaned back to MLS ;)

Foz

Katon

07-15-2003, 12:14 PM

Originally posted by MIJB#19
Barthez has never been seen as the world's #1 over here in the NLs. Being French might help there a lot too though...
It could be because he never beat our national team on pens, unlike the famous Francesco Toldo, Taffarel and Peter Schmeichel did. Lama's heroics have been forgotten due to the black vs. white issue at Euro'96.

Concidering the work permit, Man Utd signed Raymond van der Gouw (Dutch goalkeeper) about 8 years ago. Van der Gouw has never been on the national team.
Having that in mind, I'm really puzzled how it works IRL, does the rule only apply to those coming from unproven countries? (Chances are the MLS would not be considered a proven league to English football standards.)

A work permit is only necessary for people from non-EU nations. Howard got around this, from what I've heard, because his wife's a Hungarian citizen.

Barthez is somewhat overrated. A four-year-old could have kept clean sheets behind the French defence from the period Darkiller is citing. When United's defence went AWOL in 2002, Barthez was much less impressive.

SirFozzie

07-15-2003, 12:17 PM

Originally posted by airulf
Anyone have some information on another US goalie, "Matt Jordan"? He is competing to be the first choice in the upcomming season for my local team Odense Boldklub.

Here's what I remember for Matt, aided by a google search:

Starting goalie for the Dallas Burn from 99-2002

103 games for the Burn, mostly in regular MLS play.

Considered a bit weak in the air, and sometimes a bit quick to come off his line, but a solid choice.

Critch

07-15-2003, 12:22 PM

The work permit only applies to players coming into the UK from outside the European Union, plus a few other areas/countries that have agreements like Scandanavia and a couple of eastern European countries (I think).

Howard's permit was turned down first time, and Man Utd had to appeal to get it through. They shouldn't have any problems, there's some clause about a player being of exceptional potential that'll get them round the problems. A few years ago Spurs tried to sign South African Quintin Fortune but were turned down for a work permit, a couple of weeks later Man Utd signed Fortune and got a permit with no problem. If any club is going to know how to twist the rules to get their player, it'll be Man Utd.

At the moment, Man Utd's manager Ferguson is going on about Howard's youth, so I wouldn't expect Howard to be Man Utd's first choice very quickly. I'd be betting that they'll use him in advertizing campaigns to try and sell Man Utd tops to any soccer loving youths over here. If Barthez did go (and he's not been having a great time at Man Utd) I'd expect Ricardo to be ahead of Howard in the chances of being the new keeper. Ricardo after all is only 23 but has already played for Spain, and is a regular in their squad, it's not like Howard is guarenteed to be ahead of him.

airulf

07-15-2003, 12:23 PM

Thanks, SirFozzie

He will recieve stiff competion from last seasons, second string goalie, though.

Also, there will be a lot of pressure, taking over for the leagues best keeper, Karim Zaza from Morocco.

illinifan999

07-15-2003, 12:37 PM

Watching DC United play the Metrostars, I saw one of United's players loft the ball over Howard who was playing out, Howard hustled back, and tipped the ball over the crossbar. Not in a million years did I think anyone coulda saved a shot like that.

MIJB#19

07-15-2003, 12:46 PM

The work permit only applies to players coming into the UK from outside the European Union, plus a few other areas/countries that have agreements like Scandanavia and a couple of eastern European countries (I think).Well, I guess that awnsers my question.

One point can be made though, over the past 5 to 10 years, the European top teams finally have learned to value goalkeepers higher then they've always been valued.
Not so long ago, a new goalkeeper wouldn't even be concidered for 1/10th the price of a backup defender...

MIJB#19

07-15-2003, 12:52 PM

Originally posted by illinifan999
Watching DC United play the Metrostars, I saw one of United's players loft the ball over Howard who was playing out, Howard hustled back, and tipped the ball over the crossbar. Not in a million years did I think anyone coulda saved a shot like that. That makes me think of a statement made by some goalkeepers:
good goalkeepers don't make saves that are "ooh"-ed and "aah"-ed by the fans, because the are in the right place in time to catch the ball then rather jump horizontally and fingertip to a corner kick.

That's the irnony of goalkeeping, be positioned well all the time and you never make a brilliant save. Goalkeepers with brilliant saves are rememberred much easier then those who never do.

Critch

07-15-2003, 01:01 PM

Originally posted by MIJB#19
good goalkeepers don't make saves that are "ooh"-ed and "aah"-ed by the fans, because the are in the right place in time to catch the ball then rather jump horizontally and fingertip to a corner kick.

Based on that quote, I can see why you don't like Barthez. Never makes something look simple when he can make it look spectacular.

condors

07-15-2003, 01:06 PM

In defense of Tim Howard the metrostars are currently without thier #1,#2 #4 central defenders due to injury and suspension,

the opposing team are getting way too many quality chances

MIJB#19

07-15-2003, 01:16 PM

Originally posted by Critch
Based on that quote, I can see why you don't like Barthez. Never makes something look simple when he can make it look spectacular. I'm guilty as charged...
There's not much wrong in making hings look more spectacular, I'd probably do the same.
However, I've seen too many spectacular mistakes from Barthez.
And honestly, at some point, the local sports media made it some sort of weekly item, showing Bathez blunder of the week...

BTW, I didn't (want to) attack Howard, the sentance by Illinifan just made me member the statement about bad and good positioned goalkeepers.

Mac Howard

07-15-2003, 07:44 PM

Utd's problem is that they're still trying to find another Schmeichel. Peter wasn't just the best goalie in the world he also organised the defence - it was like having your defensive coordinator out on the field. They've signed a number of 'keepers since Schmeichel but they've all fallen short one way of another. That's certainly true of the current second-stringers.

Barthez is a good shot-stopper - he's very agile - but his judgement is sometimes poor particularly when facing a one-on-one situation when he often comes charging out of his area and commits himself unnecessarily instead of making the striker call the moves. He's let in some silly goals, occasionally important ones, in this way.

He doesn't play a significant role in organising the defence either. In fact he sometimes communicates badly with other defenders.

He was much better last season. He seemed to curb his enthusiasm for charging upfield and didn't make the mistakes he'd made earlier. He still isn't the 'keeper Utd want but he isn't that bad either. He makes a lot of good saves. He saves penalties. He only occasionally makes a mistake.

Howard is for the future. He's young. He's apparently very talented, communicates well and even shows promise as a defensive organisor. The cost was peanuts by Utd's standards. His games for the USA team and his youth help put him above the quality barrier that the immigration rules demand. Utd will coach him now, play him occasionally and hope that he becomes the 'keeper they've been looking for in a couple of years. If not, he'll join the other second-streamers and eventually move on elsewhere.

Typical big club attitiude; get them young, try them out, keep them if it works out, dump them if it doesn't.

RPI-Fan

07-15-2003, 07:51 PM

I think they're more confident in Howard than that, Mac.

Howard, right now, has the best pure reflexes of any keeper I've seen. Time and time again he'll find a way to stop corners off of headers, or volleys from close range. But that does relate to positioning. Kahn won't dive all over the goal box, but he's the best keeper in the world.

But, Howard's talent should give him a chance to learn all of the positioning and whatnot that's necessary. Additionally, he's not a headcase, and, at least in MLS, he's been able to get on his defense. Which must be very frustrating. When Teddy Arena is your best defender, you need to make some changes...

~rpi-fan

Mac Howard

07-15-2003, 08:15 PM

I'm not putting Howard down, RPI-Fan.

It's a dream move for him. He'll get the best coaching. Play for and against the best club sides in the world. If his potential is realised he'll quickly become a multi-millionaire and get the recognition which is denied him as the best 'keeper in the MLS.

The incumbant 'keeper, Barthez, doesn't quite cut it for Ferguson. If Howard has the talent right now, he'll become the number one immediately. If it takes time, then Utd have a good reputation for developing youngsters - Giggs, Beckham, Scholes, Keane (young and second string to Ince when he arrived at OT) the Nevilles, Brown etc.

Dream move for him! Good luck to him. As a Utd fan I'll be delighted if he makes it.

RPI-Fan

07-15-2003, 09:41 PM

One other thing - to the people that are saying the MLS isn't a high-enough caliber league to be a good keeper, that's just bullshit. The league he was in didn't matter (and granted, MLS is not at all a strong league)

Howard couldn't help his situation - he made the best of the situation he was in, and now it's finally paying off. As goalkeepers tend to develop later than other players, Howard's relatively young age of 24 bodes well for him.

It wouldn't surprise me to see him become the next Brad Friedel (aka one of the best keepers in the Premiership if not the world).

WussGawd

07-15-2003, 09:56 PM

condors

07-16-2003, 04:55 AM

there was a fanpoll on manutd site and tim howard got 62% of the votes to be the keeper vs bolton to start the season

Mac Howard

07-16-2003, 09:03 AM

'keepers mature late. As was said earlier, it's judgement that will deterine how good you are in the end. That judgement comes with experience. Friedel is around 32 now and considered by many to be the best in the Premiership. That certainly wasn't the case only two years ago. He's only now reaching his peak.

Howard is 24 - he's at least 10 years of experience in front of him if he stays focused and fit. He's got a long time to learn and Ferguson will be patient if he feels Howard has the potential. He'll get games but I suspect that Ferguson will string them out somewhat until he's sure Howard can make it. Barthez may well respond to the challenge. There's quality there - you don't become 'keeper of the World and European Champions if you don't have talent.

One thing Howard will have to learn which I don't think he's met yet - the sort of pressure he'll get in the top games, particularly Champions League football. Many a talented player falls apart when faced with that sort of pressure and it remains to be seen how Howard handles that.

It's looking like an interesting season all around. Just waiting now for Ronaldinho to join him and then see how the new team makes out in a few weeks time. Can't wait :)

aquavit

07-16-2003, 03:22 PM

Howard is going to be a success in Manchester. He has all the ability he just need to cope with going from being a minor sports star in the US to playing for the most popular sports team in the world. I hope he has a good head on him.

With Blackburn signing another American keeper that makes four American keepers in the Premiership. We are taking over baby! ;)

daedalus

07-16-2003, 03:40 PM

Originally posted by RPI-Fan
One other thing - to the people that are saying the MLS isn't a high-enough caliber league to be a good keeper, that's just bullshit. The league he was in didn't matter (and granted, MLS is not at all a strong league)

Howard couldn't help his situation - he made the best of the situation he was in, and now it's finally paying off. As goalkeepers tend to develop later than other players, Howard's relatively young age of 24 bodes well for him.

It wouldn't surprise me to see him become the next Brad Friedel (aka one of the best keepers in the Premiership if not the world).Decaf, perhaps?

I haven't seen a single post in this thread that put down the MLS or Howard. I don't think it's a definite given that Howard has beaten out Barthez just by his mere presence. Barthez may be overrated depending on your point of view but it doesn't take away from the fact that the guy has been a quality keeper for a long time and did play a part on a team that won his league's title and got a fair distance into the Champion's League. I can see the situation that Mac mention where he gets spot starts until Ferguson and his teammates are comfortable with him. I haven't seen anyone doubt his physical abilities and he'll certainly be do well if he can cope with the mental demands over there, which would be nice (except WHY did it have to be Manchester?!?)

daedalus

07-16-2003, 03:42 PM

Originally posted by Mac Howard
It's looking like an interesting season all around. Just waiting now for Ronaldinho to join him and then see how the new team makes out in a few weeks time. Can't wait :)You must be having a field day with this offseason. The other offseason grabs (other than Ronaldinho and Howard) have looked really interesting, too.

RPI-Fan

07-16-2003, 04:00 PM

Who did Blackburn sign?

aquavit

07-16-2003, 06:40 PM

Originally posted by RPI-Fan
Who did Blackburn sign?

Some American keeper from a third division German club to backup Friedel.

Critch

07-16-2003, 07:04 PM

His name is David Yelldell, signed him from Stuttgart Kickers earlier this week. They signed him on the same day as Lorenzo Amoruso and Brett Emerton, so he kind of got overshadowed.

MIJB#19

07-17-2003, 01:23 AM

Originally posted by daedalus
I haven't seen anyone doubt his physical abilities and he'll certainly be do well if he can cope with the mental demands over there, which would be nice (except WHY did it have to be Manchester?!?) That could be a real problem.
Some 'keeper reputations have been given a serious hit over the years at top clubs like Man Utd.

Why Manchester?
Because Arsenal doesn't need a goalkeeper? :rolleyes:
(BTW, not so good news around Dennis Bergkamp, 'ey?)

daedalus

07-17-2003, 02:23 AM

Originally posted by MIJB#19
Why Manchester?
Because Arsenal doesn't need a goalkeeper? :rolleyes:
(BTW, not so good news around Dennis Bergkamp, 'ey?)Sigh. Ya, who needs defense or goalkeepers? The team has a sieve and zero depth in the backline and the ONLY people I've heard them associated with are wingers and forwards. Meanwhile, Milito went to Real and Howard went to Manchester at very reasonable prices. It's really annoying news around Bergkamp. He should to be treated better. Show Wiltord the exit sign and leave the money for Bergkamp, darn it. (And I STILL need to watch Bergkamp play.)

I did get to see about 15 minutes of PSV in some competition call Peace Cup tonight, though. They beat Munchen on a pair of goals in the last couple of minutes. (How is 'Ooijers' pronounced?) That was cool. :)

MIJB#19

07-17-2003, 03:22 AM

This might turn into a complete off topic discussion, though there is a little twist at the end of my post...
Originally posted by daedalus
Sigh. Ya, who needs defense or goalkeepers? The team has a sieve and zero depth in the backline and the ONLY people I've heard them associated with are wingers and forwards. Meanwhile, Milito went to Real and Howard went to Manchester at very reasonable prices. It's really annoying news around Bergkamp. He should to be treated better. Show Wiltord the exit sign and leave the money for Bergkamp, darn it. (And I STILL need to watch Bergkamp play.) I hope you get to see Bergkamp someday, though If Arsenal doesn't offer a new co ntract to him, I think it's a 75% chance he will retire...
Bergkamp wants to retire at Arsenal and he's not just some striker, I think his career is still bigger then any other current Arsenal player (including Thierry Henry and comeback kid Nwankwo Kanu).
Though the way Seaman was shown the door, one can be really worried.

So I read Arsenal also suffers from "all out offense"-disease, like Barcelona and Real Madrid, good for you...
Originally posted by daedalus
I did get to see about 15 minutes of PSV in some competition call Peace Cup tonight, though. They beat Munchen on a pair of goals in the last couple of minutes. (How is 'Ooijers' pronounced?) That was cool. :) Ooijer?
Check the ping Dutch turkish football transfers thread for explanation on the "ooij" part, where I explained how to pronounce Pierre van Hooijdonk's name. Or just pronounce the "o" in "fork" and add the "jer" part of "jerk", without the "d" sound in "j".
What's next, Waterreus? Vennegoor of Hesselink? (Those I have explained 1 and 2 years ago respectively at FOFC.)
Bruggink? Klaas-Jan Huntelaar?

Personally, I don't watch much of the preseason soccer games, even though there are about 1 or 2 friendlies broadcasted daily. Bayern München losing in the last minutes is always great news though, even in friendlies (except when Man Utd does it in injury time of a CL final.)

BTW, did you know the Philips Sports Vereniging (PSV, mind the Philips part) is in South Korea on a promo tour because PSV seems to be become the #1 football team in Korea, thanks to living legend Guus Hiddink (coach Korea to semi's in World Cup) and the presence of several Korean internationals?

And that brings all back to Man Utd and Howard: this move perfectly fits in the latest soccer trends of buying merchandise friendly players. The USA might be just another market for Man Utd.

Katon

07-17-2003, 12:16 PM

Originally posted by daedalus
Sigh. Ya, who needs defense or goalkeepers? The team has a sieve and zero depth in the backline and the ONLY people I've heard them associated with are wingers and forwards.

They've been linked to a few defensive players - they were meant to be trying for Rustu at some point and they supposedly tried to take advantage of contract disputes to pinch John Terry and William Gallas from Chelsea before we got some money and started returning the favour. I think that Arsenal's biggest problem is that all their funds are tied up in their new stadium, so they can't afford to spend very much.

ice4277

07-17-2003, 12:35 PM

As an aside about the Metrostars new goalie...

I actually got to see them play in person last night as they were playing a team from around here, the Mid-Michigan Bucks, in the U.S. Open Cup (its very odd to see an MLS team playing at your old high school's field, that's for sure). He showed pretty good command of the area, and did a good job getting to the ball off of corners. He was tested a couple times and did a pretty solid job.

daedalus

07-21-2003, 04:44 AM

Originally posted by MIJB#19
I hope you get to see Bergkamp someday, though If Arsenal doesn't offer a new co ntract to him, I think it's a 75% chance he will retire...
Bergkamp wants to retire at Arsenal and he's not just some striker, I think his career is still bigger then any other current Arsenal player (including Thierry Henry and comeback kid Nwankwo Kanu).
Though the way Seaman was shown the door, one can be really worried.Yay! Good news! Bergkamp re-upped! Woohoo!

daedalus

07-21-2003, 04:57 AM

Originally posted by Katon
They've been linked to a few defensive players - they were meant to be trying for Rustu at some point and they supposedly tried to take advantage of contract disputes to pinch John Terry and William Gallas from Chelsea before we got some money and started returning the favour. I think that Arsenal's biggest problem is that all their funds are tied up in their new stadium, so they can't afford to spend very much.Ya, I remember them being connected with Rustu this offseason and during last season but I seem to recall the problem last season being that he wanted more money than they were willing to pay for salaries so I wasn't all that optimistic this time around.

I remember seeing Arsenal being mentioned in passing when Terry and Gallas wanted their contract redone. I never really thought it would really happen since an EPL-proven defender would probably cost a fair bit more than Wenger has the cash for.

I am surprise to not see more about Mexes (even if Roux refuses) or Boumsong since they're also supposely good young French defenders as well. I know that Wenger's funds are supposed to be limited because of the stadium and I've read the figure being mentioned as 10M, though I wouldn't be surprised if it was a fair bit less with all the trouble they seem to be having. But, still, a lot of the transfer have been at really reasonable prices. Howard, Gabriel Milito and Steve Finnan were all around the 3M-range if I remember right. Even with a limited budget, something in that range should be doable, no?

McSweeny

08-10-2003, 11:43 AM

he saved the final PK to give ManU the win

SirFozzie

08-10-2003, 11:44 AM

Nice start by Howard

daedalus

08-12-2003, 12:08 AM

Can y'all folks who saw the game say how Arsenal played?

For Manchester, it sucks that Fortune is hurt. I thought he looked really good during the US tour.

SirFozzie

08-12-2003, 12:50 AM

good game, they rightfully lost one to a red, and should have had a 2nd

daedalus

08-20-2003, 01:42 AM

I only caught the last half-hour of the Bolton game so I missed Sol's sent off, which sounded like it was deserved, but, damn, for a team that is suppose to be thuggish, the Gunners gets sent to the turf a whole lot. I particularly enjoyed the full-bodied tackle by Gravesen on Titi.

Katon

08-20-2003, 04:45 AM

Arsenal's reputation isn't based so much on consistently harsh tackling as the occasional spurt of needless violence and a lot of diving. That said, Campbell's red card wasn't really from either category. Just an ordinary professional foul - so clear-cut, even Wenger saw it.

daedalus

08-20-2003, 03:07 PM

Ya, it sounded like this last send off was well deserved.

What about the play that got "reviewed" against Djemba-Djemba? Does he deserve to be suspended for that one? [Seriously, I'm asking because I didn't see it. Not trying to be combative or argumentative about it.] What about Djemba-Djemba's hit against Sol? Was it as bad as Wenger said?

I found it amusing that it's the same referee (Halsey) that keeps reviewing, warning and sending off Gunners.

Katon

08-20-2003, 03:53 PM

I haven't looked at the highlights recently, but here's what I remember happening:

Djemba-Djemba slides in on Campbell. His foot is a bit high - high enough that I thought Campbell probably deserved a free kick, and definitely had something to complain about.

Campbell retaliates.

Retaliation is usually a red card offence, and I don't see any particular reason to change that rule in this case.

daedalus

08-20-2003, 04:17 PM

Good point about retaliation deserving a red card. It's also not uncommon for the person retaliating to be the one punished.

I guess my only problem with it would be that Sol is getting punished on the basis of a review where Djemba-Djemba is not.

Mac Howard

08-20-2003, 09:08 PM

Dj-Dj wasn't making a tackle at all. He took a shot from the edge of the Arsenal box. The ball was well in front of him and he had to stretch to make the shot. Campbell rushed him to block the shot. Dj-Dj's leg followed through high and almost caught Campbell. It was a clumsy follow-through and not a foul, certainly nothing deliberate. Campbell's retaliation was not malicious, a little dig merely saying "hey watch what you're doing" to Dj-Dj who's new to the Premiership. Campbell should have had more sense. The ref missed it but it was caught on camera. The FA will rule on video evidence and probably give him a ban - not helped by his sending off in the next match :rolleyes:

Another competent performance by Howard, incidentally. He didn't have a lot to do but what he did he did well.

daedalus

08-20-2003, 10:23 PM

Meh. That's really a stupid move by Sol, then.

By the way, what's your opinions of the new guys for your team so far? Only move I haven't liked so far have been Veron's sale. :)

Katon

08-21-2003, 04:06 AM

What I find interesting about United's summer spending is how much of it was concentrated on defensive midfielders. Djemba-Djemba and Kleberson, to go with Butt and Keane, give United a poorly balanced midfield. Says the Chelsea fan.

ice4277

08-21-2003, 04:44 AM

Originally posted by Katon
What I find interesting about United's summer spending is how much of it was concentrated on defensive midfielders. Djemba-Djemba and Kleberson, to go with Butt and Keane, give United a poorly balanced midfield. Says the Chelsea fan.

Yes but you also have to balance that against the signings of Ronaldo and Bellion; moreso the former than the latter. Judging the way they played on their U.S. tour, and their drubbing of Bolton (who, if I'm not mistaken, had taken points from Old Trafford on their last two visits) they are clearly still the favorites for this season.

Katon

08-21-2003, 05:24 AM

Yes, they are the favorites. Van Nistelrooy doesn't really need anybody creating for him, and Giggs is one of the best left wingers in the league. Their back line is about as good as anyone short of Chelsea, and Tim Howard should be an improvement on Barthez in goal. Ronaldo I'm not so sure about. I can only think of one player who had a consistent, season-long impact on the Premiership at 18 (Michael Owen), and Bolton were tired and being slightly outplayed when he came on. He will be very good eventually, but I''m not convinced that he's a title-winner now.

Still, all the other title contenders have even bigger problems:

Chelsea's midfield is as imbalanced as United's, albeit in the other direction, and we're going to need a bit of time to gel. We also might not have the killer striker that all the other contenders do. Then again, with Mutu newly signed, Crespo maybe about to sign, and Hasselbaink showing signs of being back to his best, we might have three killer strikers. Check this space at the transfer deadline.

Arsenal's defence wasn't good enough to win the title last year and, unless Philippe Senderos is the type of impact 18-year-old I just said Ronaldo probably isn't, it should be even worse this year. Seaman was a good keeper last year, apart from not being able to jump, and I can't see Jens Lehmann in a new (to him) defence as being much of a improvement.

Newcastle's defence was actually worse than Arsenal's last year, and they haven't signed anybody new.

Liverpool had no width or creativity last year, and playing Harry Kewell on the wrong flank isn't really a significant improvement. They have no strength in depth and the worst manager in the top five.

condors

08-21-2003, 06:33 AM

my view of the top 5

1-manutd-i think howard may prove to be the best transfer of the year, with the leadership and quality they have i would be surprised if they finish anywhere but first

2-arsenal-i think you may have underestimated arsenal i don't care for their manager but he gets results, you can take any player from chelsea and i would take henry or vieria over them while chelsea may have more quality players you only play 11 and i like arsenal's starting 11 over chelsea's.

3-chelsea-i agree the best backline but i don't see a keane or vieria for them on the field and will result in more work for that defense unless edgar davids comes in a transfer things could go bad if some ego's start clashing (also if they come together and the midfield puts forth a high enough workrate both ways then they could surprise? and win it this year)

4-liverpool i think they thought they deserved more last year, i don't see them in the top 3 and lower finish than 4th could cost the manager his job

5-newcastle-i enjoy watching shearer whenever i can he is one of my favorite players i like their group of players but its a tough league i don't think they have enough yet

also i think everton, blackburn and southampton could be in battle for the 5th spot, however it finishes i will enjoy seeing how things play out

ps i have only been following the league for 8 years so you can throw away anything this idiot american says :)

i am also interested if any of the new teams in the league can stay up

Katon

08-21-2003, 08:45 AM

I could see Liverpool in fourth; they aren't a top three team, but they might be able to manage Newcastle. My main gripe with them goes back to the final game of last season. They were away to Chelsea needing a win to beat Chelsea out for the final CL spot. Apart from Steven Gerrard, none of their players even looked good enough to make our squad. And that was the biggest game of the season.

Henry and Viera are the best striker and midfielder in the league, respectively, but Arsenal's defence is absolutely horrendous. Ashley Cole is too attacking-minded at left-back, Lauren isn't anything special at right-back, Keown is about forty, and they have no cover whatsoever. Campbell is their only decent defender and, as we were discussing above, he's in a spot of bother with the FA. I also think they'll miss Seaman. He was good for most of last year (did you see his save in the FA Cup semifinal?) and he'd been there since forever. Now the defence has to get used to a new goalie.

Chelsea are missing the Keane/Butt type, yes. In fact, that was why Man U conceded less goals than us last year even though we had a better defence and keeper; they had defensive midfielders, we didn't. On the other hand, we are currently being linked with Claude Makelele, who fills that role for Real Madrid, and Alexei Smertin, who's also meant to be good at that. I'm going to hold off on an in-depth analysis of Chelsea until the transfer deadline's past.

Relegated favorites: Wolves are almost certain to go down. Beyond that, probably two from Fulham, Leeds, Bolton, Leicester, and Portsmouth. If pushed, I'd bet on Fulham and Leeds.

ice4277

08-21-2003, 08:51 AM

I think Wolves and Leicester will go straight back down, and I think Bolton's habit of waiting until the last day for safety may finally haunt them this year.

condors

08-21-2003, 09:27 AM

20th-leeds-i think leeds will drop, the players they lost will hurt them, and the morale of the current players has to be effected

19th-wolves i will be rooting for the wolves but i expect them to drop as well

18th-i think fulham made a mistake changing managers and would perfer to see them drop

Mac Howard

08-21-2003, 09:09 PM

>By the way, what's your opinions of the new guys for your team so far? Only move I haven't liked so far have been Veron's sale

I was very disturbed to see Alex let Veron go after Beckham had left and Utd failed to get Ronaldinho - until I saw Ronaldo last Saturday. What a talent that kid is? :D

When he came on around 70 minutes Utd were winning 1-0 but hardly deserved it. Only Bolton's poor finishing allowed Utd to be ahead. He came on and immediately launched himself at the Bolton defence like a young Giggs. He turned the defence inside out, won a penalty having left two defenders for dead and was instrumental in the second and fourth goals (the third was plainly off-side). The Bolton defenders, who'd dealt quite successfully with the Utd attack up to his introduction, couldn't handle him at all. He attacked them down the left, the right and straight through the middle. I've never seen such an impressive debut. He was scintillating!

The question remains whether he'll be able to stand the rough stuff he'll get from defenders who don't like to be made fools of. He's young, quite slight in build and he'll need protecting so I don't see Alex playing him too often for a while, maybe using him in the latter stages of the game when defenders are tiring.

Dj-Dj looks more than competent and may take over from a fading Keane earlier than we thought. He's a powerful, driving player but I suspect tactically naive at this stage. I haven't yet seen Kleberson and have little idea of how he plays. I'm looking forward to seing him, hopefully this weekend.

I see Utd playing something like this:

.......................van Nistelrooy

<<< Giggs >>>><<<< Ronaldo/Solksjaer >>>

.......................Scholes

..........Keane...................Dj-Dj/Butt

O'Shea.........................................................Neville
..............Silvestre............Ferdinand

........................Howard

I see lots of rotation between Giggs, Ronaldo/Solkjaer and Scholes, all moving between the wings, attacking midfield and alongside RvN and the defensive midfield pairing of Keane and Dj-Dj/Butt allowing O'Shea and Neville to attack on the wings.

So, with four from van Nistelrooy, Giggs, Solksjaer, Ronaldo and Scholes in there I don't see them lacking attacking flair or power and the defence looks good too. But the squad is not deep and a few injuries could mess up that lineup very easily. They're already in trouble in defence with only one match of the season gone :rolleyes:

daedalus

08-22-2003, 02:05 AM

I can't stand O'Shea. In the few games I've seen him (last year's Real game and a few games during their US tour), it looks like he just clumsily knocks people down and then complains about every single call. Even when he gets away with half the knockdowns.

Between those four defenders, Fortune and Brown, that's a pretty deep group, isn't it? Well, y'know, assuming Brown isn't hurt. Again. I really like watching Fortune during the US tour.

They look strong again this year. I'd really like to watch 'em both in league and European play.

Mac Howard

08-22-2003, 08:22 PM

>Between those four defenders, Fortune and Brown, that's a pretty deep group, isn't it?

Not really. Fortune is essentially a midfield player and playing at left-back precisely because of the lack of depth. Five defenders (Neville, Ferdinand, Silvestre, Brown and O'Shea) isn't enough when you have to put 4 defenders out in any one game. A couple of injuries - and bear in mind Brown is already out until 2004 as best they can tell - and you're having to use weaker reserve team players or drop back midfielders. With Neville's injury then they've had to do that already with only one match into a 50+ match season.

Fortune has shown himself to be capable when dropped back to left-back and Ferguson has already used Keane at centreback. That's all well and good in the Premiership where Utd have quite an advantage but it won't do in the Champion's League when the likes of Real Madrid are putting out a team with 5 world class attacking players.

Alex needs to bring in at least one more class defender before the transfer window closes. I believe he will because he's already had a taste of what will happen if he doesn't - the defence at times looked quite vulnerable against Bolton and they're far from being the best team Utd will meet this season.

aquavit

08-22-2003, 11:52 PM

Originally posted by condors
20th-leeds-i think leeds will drop, the players they lost will hurt them, and the morale of the current players has to be effected

No way Leeds will get relegated. Viduka and Smith/Bridges (if healthy) is one of the best forward pairings in England. The best young goalkeeper in the league (well after Howard :) ) and a decent midfield they will be fine.

It's going to be...

20 - Wolves : I would love to see them stay up but there is no chance.

19 - Aston Villa : O'Leary isn't a good manager and City will become the premier club in Birmingham for the first time in decades.

18 - Leicester : They will battle until the last day and lose out.

Neuqua

08-22-2003, 11:58 PM

Ok I don't have FSW, is there anywhere on the internet that I can read about what's going on in the Newcastle-Man Utd. game tomorrow?

Katon

08-23-2003, 05:24 AM

Originally posted by aquavit
No way Leeds will get relegated. Viduka and Smith/Bridges (if healthy) is one of the best forward pairings in England. The best young goalkeeper in the league (well after Howard :) ) and a decent midfield they will be fine.

It's going to be...

20 - Wolves : I would love to see them stay up but there is no chance.

19 - Aston Villa : O'Leary isn't a good manager and City will become the premier club in Birmingham for the first time in decades.

18 - Leicester : They will battle until the last day and lose out.

Leeds are starting Jody Morris in central midfield. That isn't good.

Considering how likely Viduka is to leave, one can actually make a case that Villa have a better strike force than Leeds - Marcus Allback was tearing up the league towards the end of last season, and Angel and Crouch are both good too. David O'Leary isn't a great manager, but he's better than Peter Reid. Add in a halfway-decent midfield (Gareth Barry) and I think Villa will finish ahead of Leeds.

ice4277

08-23-2003, 11:41 AM

Originally posted by Ronnie Dobbs2
2-1 Man U.

Good game, the first half was great with a lot of end-to-end play, in the second half Man U settled down and played like champions. Very tough to see how they can be beaten to the title this season.

daedalus

08-23-2003, 06:11 PM

Kinda . . . rough to ask a young 'un like Bramble to try to mark van Nistelrooij.

Katon

08-23-2003, 06:16 PM

Kinda rough to ask Bramble at any age to mark van Nistelrooy.

daedalus

08-23-2003, 06:42 PM

True, true. The guy is insanely good and expecting anyone to try to mark him is unfair. I just meant that at least Terry has had more time to learn to deal with players of that caliber.

PilotMan

08-23-2003, 09:21 PM

Oh how I wish I had FSW. :(

McSweeny

08-23-2003, 09:46 PM

Originally posted by PilotMan
Oh how I wish I had FSW. :(

ditto

Calis

08-23-2003, 09:54 PM

I wish I'd pay attention, so I could watch games like this on FSW. :mad:

Katon

08-24-2003, 04:48 AM

Originally posted by daedalus
True, true. The guy is insanely good and expecting anyone to try to mark him is unfair. I just meant that at least Terry has had more time to learn to deal with players of that caliber.

Terry is much better than Bramble, yes, but considering that Terry plays for Chelsea he doesn't really have much to do with Newcastle-Man U. The only Newcastle defender who's good enough not to be completely embarassed by Van Nistelrooy is Woodgate, and he wasn't available that day.

daedalus

08-24-2003, 05:13 AM

Duh. He'd have a heck of a time trying to help Newcastle all the way from Chelsea's roster, wouldn't he? Yeah, I was thinking of Woodgate. Didn't know he wasn't available, though.

ice4277

08-24-2003, 09:00 AM

Originally posted by daedalus
Duh. He'd have a heck of a time trying to help Newcastle all the way from Chelsea's roster, wouldn't he? Yeah, I was thinking of Woodgate. Didn't know he wasn't available, though.

Van Nistelrooy has now scored in 12 straight matches. Its difficult to see any defender going out there and marking him out of the game to the point he wouldn't score a goal. And the goal he scored wasn't Bramble's fault, there was another defender farther away playing him onsides while the rest of the team was trying to get him offsides. Really a mess-up across the back.

Katon

08-26-2003, 05:51 PM

Chelsea just officially signed Crespo. :D

ice4277

08-26-2003, 06:44 PM

Originally posted by Katon
Chelsea just officially signed Crespo. :D

Its sick how much they've added; watching their Champions League qualifier today, they basically fielded a B team. However, most of these guys were first team regulars just a month or two ago. Pretty strange.

Katon

08-27-2003, 04:48 AM

I'm not sure if that was exactly a B team; with our squad rotation policy, pointing at the B team is kind of hard anyway. On the other hand, there were only three changes from the Liverpool game, which was a very big game (away to CL contender) and should be a fairly good baseline:

Babayaro in for Bridge
Hasslebaink in for Veron
Cole in for Duff

The Hasselbaink-for-Veron switch was because we were switching formation, not a change towards the B team. Cole's also been coming on as a sub pretty often.

ice4277

08-27-2003, 04:51 AM

Originally posted by Katon
I'm not sure if that was exactly a B team; with our squad rotation policy, pointing at the B team is kind of hard anyway. On the other hand, there were only three changes from the Liverpool game, which was a very big game (away to CL contender) and should be a fairly good baseline:

Babayaro in for Bridge
Hasslebaink in for Veron
Cole in for Duff

The Hasselbaink-for-Veron switch was because we were switching formation, not a change towards the B team. Cole's also been coming on as a sub pretty often.

True, it was not a full B team, but they left out most of the players they have brought in; I was just trying to point out the rather insane amount of depth they have now at a number of key positions.

Katon

08-27-2003, 05:09 AM

No argument here; we've got at least four top-class players at every position up the middle (and the centre-back depth goes back to before Roman!) and good depth on the flanks too.

One problem with my defence of the team is that it counts Hasselbaink and Gudjohnsen as A-teamers, which, once Crespo and Mutu are eligible for the CL, they probably won't be.

MIJB#19

08-27-2003, 05:22 AM

Originally posted by daedalus
Kinda . . . rough to ask a young 'un like Bramble to try to mark van Nistelrooij. An A- for spelling for Daedalus for not being a bandwagon person by misspelling Van Nistelrooij's name. Even though Ruud wants his name to read an "y" in stead of an "ij"...
Too bad you missed the capital "V", which is only uncapped if the re is a first name and last name combination. (Ruud van Nistelrooij, Van Nistelrooij) So much for Dutch names lessons for tooday.

Chelsea is hot on the market, though they're paying way too much money for the quality they get.
How is a team going to cope with such a situation?
Guys like Hasselbaink and Gudjohnson have been pretty important and now some bored millionair decides to buy Crespo, Mutu and whoever they got already.

condors

08-27-2003, 06:06 AM

i think the signing of Crespo is major for Chelsea. (he is a top notch striker imho)

So far things have gone well to start the season 6 league points

If they continue to play well will all the new faces now, they are going to play better together as the season goes on. Things could get very interesting espcially if/when they are at/near the top of the table when the transfer window opens again and the owners wallet isn't closed

Katon-are they any words on just how much they are going to spend? it can't be bottomless can it? I can't imagine the pressure on the manager, new owners tend to bring in new faces add in the amount of money put out and it may be unacceptable to win ugly.

Katon

08-27-2003, 07:38 AM

Roman Abramovich has said that (paraphrasing) if there's someone who'd be a good addition to the squad for his fee, we'll have the money. He seems to be limiting spending on a deal-by-deal basis (i.e. we're only going to pay up to £10,000,000 for this guy) rather than on a total budget.

The main limiting factor is probably going to be needs. Apart from a world-class defensive midfielder (we have a couple good players here, but no Viera or Keane) there isn't anything else we would be likely to WANT to buy.

Crespo's an unbelievable signing for us. I'm trying to think of the last time a superstar like that came to the Premiership and the only other player in the past decade who was as big when he came here (Viera, Henry, and Van Nistelrooy all reached that level after arriving) was, coincidentally enough, Veron. Can't wait for Saturday.

Katon

08-27-2003, 07:52 AM

Originally posted by MIJB#19
Chelsea is hot on the market, though they're paying way too much money for the quality they get.
How is a team going to cope with such a situation?
Guys like Hasselbaink and Gudjohnson have been pretty important and now some bored millionaire decides to buy Crespo, Mutu and whoever they got already.

We're getting top quality. Mutu was second-leading scorer and Foreigner of the Year in Serie A last year, at only 24; Crespo is one of the best strikers in the world. Damien Duff's the best left-winger in the Premiership. Glen Johnson's one of the better right-backs in the league already, and he's just turned 19 on Saturday. I don't think we payed way over the odds for any of them. Veron is either a great deal or a horrible deal, depending on whether we get his Lazio/Parma form or his Man U form. Cole and Geremi are both good young players who're only going to get better; we might have been a million or so high for them, but we payed reasonable fees. Wayne Bridge was probably the worst deal of the lot, and £7,000,000 for England's future (as soon as Eriksson realizes Ashley Cole can't defend) left-back is defensible.

Hasselbaink and Gudjohnsen have been pretty important, yes, but not key players. The core of the team last year was Carlo Cudicini, Frank Lampard, John Terry, William Gallas, Marcel Desailly, and Gianfranco Zola. Apart from Franco, who was gone before Abramovich took over, that entire core's back and playing. Carlo and JT, in particular, were heroes against Liverpool.

daedalus

08-27-2003, 09:35 PM

Y'know . . . just ONCE, I'd like to see Arsenal get through a whole week without some kind of controversy. That'd be nice.

Wenger is letting Van Bronckhorst go on loan to Barca. And he's keeping Wiltord. I'll be in the corner crying, if anyone needs me.

An A- for spelling for Daedalus for not being a bandwagon person by misspelling Van Nistelrooij's name. Even though Ruud wants his name to read an "y" in stead of an "ij"...
Too bad you missed the capital "V", which is only uncapped if the re is a first name and last name combination. (Ruud van Nistelrooij, Van Nistelrooij) So much for Dutch names lessons for tooday.I only know that his name should be spelled with an 'ij' instead of 'y' because of your posts. Everywhere else I've seen, his name has been spelled with a 'y'.

So . . . you capitalize the 'V' if you are only saying the last name (Van Bronckhorst) but don't if you are saying the full name (Giovanni van Bronckhorst), is that correct?

daedalus

08-27-2003, 09:37 PM

Out of curiosity, since I'm soccer-ignorant, did anybody catch Geremi's tackle that got him a red card? Was that deserving of a red?

On the side of 'yes', I guess, is that it's a two-foot challenge and spikes were up. On the side of 'no', I guess, is that he did go for and got the ball. Is that correct?

daedalus

08-27-2003, 09:42 PM

A thread so nice, I dola'ed twice.Originally posted by Mac Howard
Not really. Fortune is essentially a midfield player and playing at left-back precisely because of the lack of depth. Five defenders (Neville, Ferdinand, Silvestre, Brown and O'Shea) isn't enough when you have to put 4 defenders out in any one game. A couple of injuries - and bear in mind Brown is already out until 2004 as best they can tell - and you're having to use weaker reserve team players or drop back midfielders. With Neville's injury then they've had to do that already with only one match into a 50+ match season.Oh. I did not know Brown was out until '04. That sucks. Seems like he just has crappy luck.

Did not know Fortune was a middie filling in in the back. Ouch. That IS harsh.

Say, there's a left-footed French centreback in Highbury that can probably be had for cheap . . . :D

Mac Howard

08-27-2003, 10:24 PM

If you saw last night's abysmal display against Wolves you'd have seen what I mean. Silvestre and Ferdinand carried injuries from the weekend. The resulting Utd defence was Neville (G), Keane, O'Shea and Neville (P). They looked woeful! Camara, a second level striker, could have scored five. Twice he was left one on one with the 'keeper, once he found himself completely alone three yards out but the ball came to him awkwardly and twice he was given ample time to shoot from the edge of the box. At times the defence ran around like headless chickens.

I hope Utd have got that performance out of their system :rolleyes:

MIJB#19

08-28-2003, 02:15 AM

Originally posted by daedalus
Y'know . . . just ONCE, I'd like to see Arsenal get through a whole week without some kind of controversy. That'd be nice.

Wenger is letting Van Bronckhorst go on loan to Barca. And he's keeping Wiltord. I'll be in the corner crying, if anyone needs me.

I only know that his name should be spelled with an 'ij' instead of 'y' because of your posts. Everywhere else I've seen, his name has been spelled with a 'y'.

So . . . you capitalize the 'V' if you are only saying the last name (Van Bronckhorst) but don't if you are saying the full name (Giovanni van Bronckhorst), is that correct? Right on.

Giovanni will be playing left back at Barcelona (they hadn't one there yet after the leaving of Soler, Sergi and De Boer).

One thing (or three?) people are forgetting:
Serie A quality ≈ Premiership quality
Serie A money ≈ Premiership money
Serie A football ≠ Premiership football

It took Veron forever to get used to English football, I wouldn't be surprized to see Crespo and/or Mutu to never acclimate for 100%.
Plus, with Crespo and Mutu stealing Hasselbaink's job, chances are becoming slim Hasselbaink makes the national team and Van Hooijdonk will stay on the team.
Boy, did Van Hooijdonk finally show his true nature in his home country this summer (until recently, Not' Forest, Celtic and Benfica were blamed for his reputation.)

daedalus

08-28-2003, 03:15 AM

Apparently, Gio wanted out. :(

Can't say I blame him, he's not getting any playing time. Hopefully, it's not a permanent move. He still seems really classy about the whole situation (lack of playing time, going out on loan, etc). That rocks.

At least he'll be playing for a manager that knows him.

MIJB#19

08-28-2003, 03:28 AM

Originally posted by daedalus
Apparently, Gio wanted out. :(

Can't say I blame him, he's not getting any playing time. Hopefully, it's not a permanent move. He still seems really classy about the whole situation (lack of playing time, going out on loan, etc). That rocks.

At least he'll be playing for a manager that knows him. Well, it took him weeks to conclude being a reserve at Arsenal won't be enough to stay on the national team.
Rumors say he's been rejecting several bids before the season started.
Not to mention Van Bronckhorst always said he isn't so happy about playing left back, though in today's football that position fits him better then on the left wing or as defensive midfielder, and now he's come to the conclusion that remaining as the left back of the national team can only be achieved by playing left back at Barcelona.
In the end, I think it's a smart move for both Van Bronckhorst and Arsenal. Van Bronckhorst was not ready I guess after the injury that sidelined him for almost a year. Now he's given the chance to play for one of Europe's biggest clubs on a weekly base and he doesn't even has competition for the position at Barcelona.

Katon

08-28-2003, 05:23 AM

Originally posted by MIJB#19
One thing (or three?) people are forgetting:
Serie A quality ≈ Premiership quality
Serie A money ≈ Premiership money
Serie A football ≠ Premiership football

It took Veron forever to get used to English football, I wouldn't be surprized to see Crespo and/or Mutu to never acclimate for 100%.

To counter with an example near & dear to Chelsea hearts, what about Franco Zola? PFA Player of the Year his first season over here. What about Desailly coming in from Milan? What about Di Matteo? Chelsea have never had any trouble with players adapting before.

It's almost irrelevant how Man U players adapted. Man U have a Scottish manager and mostly British players; Chelsea have an Italian coach and significant amounts of foreign players. Man U play a pressing, agressive style; Chelsea play a more Continental patient, passing style.

All these are factors which might make Chelsea easier to adjust to than Man U.

Katon

08-28-2003, 06:04 AM

dola

Originally posted by daedalus
Out of curiosity, since I'm soccer-ignorant, did anybody catch Geremi's tackle that got him a red card? Was that deserving of a red?

On the side of 'yes', I guess, is that it's a two-foot challenge and spikes were up. On the side of 'no', I guess, is that he did go for and got the ball. Is that correct?

Case for:
It's two-footed
It was spkes first

Case against:
His feet were going in very, very low - not too dangerous
He played the ball
He was coming in from the front
Rob Stiles thought it was a red

A strict interpretation of the rules would see it as a red, but it's a pretty harsh decision.

ice4277

08-28-2003, 09:09 AM

Originally posted by Katon
dola

Case for:
It's two-footed
It was spkes first

Case against:
His feet were going in very, very low - not too dangerous
He played the ball
He was coming in from the front
Rob Stiles thought it was a red

A strict interpretation of the rules would see it as a red, but it's a pretty harsh decision.

I was watching the game, and the first thought that went through my head when I saw it live was 'he's gone'. When I saw the replays it didn't look as bad but I definitely agree that a red card was reasonable punishment in this case.

daedalus

08-28-2003, 03:50 PM

So it was an appropriate call, just a harsh one?

ice4277

08-28-2003, 04:51 PM

Originally posted by daedalus
So it was an appropriate call, just a harsh one?

From the refs perspective, watching it happen live, I could easily see the red card being given. However, watching it from the benefit of a replay, which of course the ref doesn't have, I would say it was a 50/50 call.

daedalus

08-28-2003, 06:15 PM

Nifty. Thanks. :)

It's nice to be able to actually see and understand what I've been reading in CM for the last two years.

daedalus

08-29-2003, 03:01 AM

That's an ugly, ugly draw Arsenal got. Meanies!

MIJB#19

08-29-2003, 04:14 AM

Originally posted by Katon
To counter with an example near & dear to Chelsea hearts, what about Franco Zola? PFA Player of the Year his first season over here. What about Desailly coming in from Milan? What about Di Matteo? Chelsea have never had any trouble with players adapting before.

It's almost irrelevant how Man U players adapted. Man U have a Scottish manager and mostly British players; Chelsea have an Italian coach and significant amounts of foreign players. Man U play a pressing, agressive style; Chelsea play a more Continental patient, passing style.

All these are factors which might make Chelsea easier to adjust to than Man U. Okay, so maybe Chelsea have been lucky with players getting used to living in England and playing English football (or your explanation makes a lot of sens, especially your point of Chelsea and Man Utd having different styles of play).

At least it explains why Boudewijn Zenden is one of the rare foreign players that can't do it at Chelsea, Zenden just doesn't fit in as a left midfielder or upcoming left back. He's a typical left wing attacker, the type you only see at Barcelona today as even the Dutch clubs are giving up on wing attackers, Ajax played almost Italian last season. Even at PSV, his original club, he never fitted in for 100% in the system, as PSV plays a 4-4-2 system, which makes a lot of s nese with the type of strikers they had in the past.

Katon

09-02-2003, 12:59 PM

Now that the transfer deadline is past, I'll toss out a full set of season predictions.

1. Man U
2. Arsenal
3. Chelsea

I explained these picks earlier in the thread. Chelsea have added Makelele since then, but we still have the gelling issue, still have an aggravating tendency to drop silly points, and I suspect that my urge to put us second is rather biased. We could finish higher, though.

4. Newcastle
5. Liverpool

Newcastle always seem to start slowly and Liverpool live or die with Gerrard and Owen. I think they'll both improve on their performances so far; if they don't, they both might drop a fair ways.

6. Blackburn

A newly beefed-up central midfield sees them hang onto this spot from last season.

7. Man City
8. Southampton
9. Everton

City have upgraded in a major way this summer, and I suspect that both Everton and Southampton overachieved somewhat last year. These three could finish in any order.

10. Charlton
11. Birmingham
12. Middlesborough
13. Tottenham
14. Portsmouth

All should have enough class to stay out of the relegation struggle, but I can't see any of them in European contention.

15. Leeds
16. Villa
17. Bolton
18. Leicester
19. Fulham
20. Wolves

Leeds seem to have made some killer loan signings, and are probably better than I was giving them credit for earlier. Bolton have Okocha and Jardel, who strike me as being the best two players on any of the bottom four clubs (assuming Jardel gets fit and adapts reasonably well). Leicester and Fulham are both off to good starts, Fulham especially, but I just don't see enough talent there to pick them ahead of any three other teams. Wolves look thoroughly outclassed.

Now watch Fulham challenge for Europe.

daedalus

09-03-2003, 12:21 AM

Originally posted by Katon
2. ArsenalQuestions . . .

Does Arsenal belong this high? I mean, between health issue (Is Freddie ever healthy? Will Keown become healthy this year?) and defensive questions (Can Toure and Sanderos really hold up opposite Sol?), can they really hang in there with Manchester and Chelsea long term? I'd love nothing more than to see Arsenal either be up there for the season or, heck, win it. I'm just curious what the likelihood is.

Thanks. :)

daedalus

09-03-2003, 01:13 AM

By the way . . . what does Makelele's transfer mean for Real - he was supposedly the ball-winner for the Galacticas - and Chelsea - is he the defensive midfielder they supposedly need?

3ric

09-03-2003, 01:36 AM

I think Real have faith in that Cambiasso can perform the defensive midfielder duties just as well as Makelele.

daedalus

09-22-2003, 02:02 AM

Would it be a proper Arsenal game if there *wasn't* a controversy? I've only seen a few Manchester United game but I don't think I've seen much diving from Van Nistelrooij. I didn't see the game but (from reading about it) celebrating the missed penalty in his face seems . . . uncool.

MIJB#19

09-22-2003, 03:18 AM

Originally posted by daedalus
Would it be a proper Arsenal game if there *wasn't* a controversy? I've only seen a few Manchester United game but I don't think I've seen much diving from Van Nistelrooij. I didn't see the game but (from reading about it) celebrating the missed penalty in his face seems . . . uncool. It had all to do with the following incident:
1 Patrick Vieira is on the ground
2 Van Nistelrooij sstands next to him
3 Vieira kicks towards Van Nistelrooij (misses bij an inch or 3)
4 Van Nistelrooij jumps back like he was almost hit
5 Vieira gets a (second) yellow card

To me it seems that:
Vieira's action was worth a direct red card independant of Van Nistelrooij's action.
Van Nistelrooij's theatre deserved a yellow card.

Critch

09-22-2003, 08:47 AM

For anybody who's interested, some guy has been posting the UK's ITV soccer highlights show on one of the usenet binary newsgroups. It's from Sunday mornings, so it has highlights of about 4 of the previous day's games (so it doesn't have highlights of the Man Utd v Arsenal game as it was a sunday game).

It's about an hour long and it's a huge download, about 950mb but the quality is pretty good. Turns up most mondays on alt.binaries.multimedia.

It's yENC encoded, so you'll need a newsgroup reader that handles that ok (ie, not Outlook). I use xnews as it's free and handles yENC automatically.

Critch

09-22-2003, 09:21 AM

Dola

Just been sent a couple of avi clips from the Man Utd v Arsenal game, the sending off, the penalty and the full time whistle. Unfortunately I don't have anywhere to upload them to share them, plus I'm not sure of the legality of that :)

Vieira deserved to be sent off even if his kick wasn't a real attempt to hit van Nistelrooy and missed by at least a foot. The way he reacted after being sent off guarentees a hefty suspension. Van Nistelrooy didn't cover himself in glory either, making it all seem worse than it was then searching for the referee to appeal for a card. Van Nistelrooy's challenge and his reaction after it also seemed to be tempting the hot tempered Vieira into reacting and getting himself sent off.

The penalty was very soft, but it's the kind of call Man Utd get. Keown's celebration of the van Nistelrooy's miss was over the top both straight after and at the full time whistle, but as the English TV commentator said "You don't like to see it, but you can understand it".

Katon

09-22-2003, 10:55 AM

As far as I know, Viera's kick wouldn't have been a straight red unless he connected. On the other hand, it definitely merited a yellow (which is what the ref gave), and since Viera was already booked he did deserve to go. I think a lot of Van Nistelrooy's reaction was a sort of instinctive jump out of the way, rather than a deliberate attempt to play it up.

The taunting and shoving after the final whistle were not good. Really not good. The FA needs to do something in response - suspend all the players who were involved for a game or two, dock Arsenal a couple points, or something along those lines.

ice4277

09-22-2003, 01:40 PM

Originally posted by Katon
As far as I know, Viera's kick wouldn't have been a straight red unless he connected. On the other hand, it definitely merited a yellow (which is what the ref gave), and since Viera was already booked he did deserve to go. I think a lot of Van Nistelrooy's reaction was a sort of instinctive jump out of the way, rather than a deliberate attempt to play it up.

The taunting and shoving after the final whistle were not good. Really not good. The FA needs to do something in response - suspend all the players who were involved for a game or two, dock Arsenal a couple points, or something along those lines.

I would be VERY surprised if Arsenal were docked points; I think if any team has ever deserved it, with their track record, it is them.

Honolulu_Blue

09-22-2003, 01:55 PM

I was actually at the game. Now, this doesn't give me a better perspective as to what happened as I was about 20 rows from the top. I did spend the night in Manchester so I was greeted with replays of the "key events" like 1,000 times.

It was just cool to actually be at the game. Good stuff. Nice grounds. I can certainly see why the visiting fans need their own section and a police guard out of the stadium. It's a shame really.

As for the penalties. I think Vieira definitely deserved the second yellow. He kicked out at a player, that's violent conduct and cannot be tolerated.

I don't think Arsenal will be docked points, but Keown should definitely pick up a yellow or red card. He deliberately elbowed Ruud in the back of the head after the missed penalty.

Cristiano Ronaldo was pretty impressive. First time I've seen him play. Good stuff from the young kid.

SirFozzie

09-22-2003, 04:33 PM

Arsenal=Whingers. All there is to it.

ice4277

09-22-2003, 05:21 PM

Originally posted by SirFozzie
Arsenal=Whingers=Wenger. All there is to it.

That is the correct version :D

SirFozzie

09-22-2003, 05:24 PM

Yeah. All Arsenal are Whingers. Wenger is a whinger.. Does this make Wenger Arsenal?

Confuzzled

Mac Howard

09-22-2003, 08:03 PM

There's a paranoia about the Arsenal club these days and it won't improve until Wenger accepts that a number of his players have poor self control. As long as he refuses to see anything wrong then it can only get worse.

Vieira was correctly given a first yellow card for persistent fouling. He then clearly threatened to kick van Nistelrooy which led to the second yellow and, though my own view is that he didn't in fact intend to connect, nevertheless you can't go around threatening other players. The referee really had no choice than to give the second yellow.

Interestingly enough it was Roy Keane, who is no stranger to the red mist descending, who managed to calm him down and prevent him from making matters much worse :)

The idea that van Nistelrooy's reaction was over the top is ridiculous. A player threatens to thrust his studs into your groin and you're supposed to ignore it. His reaction was not to feign injury but to look at the player, look at the ref, and gesture "what's this all about, ref?" and was justified.

Incidentally, an eye witness reports that in the tunnel after the match Vieira threatened that he wouldn't miss this time if he could get near enough to van Nistelrooy.

The penalty was correctly given. Yes, defenders sometimes get away with destabilising attackers as they attempt to score but this was just too blatant. Keown clearly placed his right hand in the small of Forlan's back and pushed him to the ground as he went for the cross. The complaint should be, not that this penalty was given but that others aren't (can't you tell I used to be a striker? I'd also remove the offside law :) )

The behaviour of a number of Arsenal players at the final whistle was totally unacceptable. Keown will not get away with the rabbit punch to the back of van Nistelrooy's neck. He's in for a ban and rightly so. Cole, who gave van Nistelrooy a dig in the back, and Toure and Parlour who pushed him around between them deserve some punishment though I suspect that won't happen.

Wenger is the one the FA should go for. He's the one that has cultivated this problem in Arsenal by utterly refusing to recognise the problem. Their disciplinary record speaks for itself, it's atrocious (Vieira has now been sent off more times then any other player in the Premiership and this after only a few years) and things are obviously not improving. Wenger deserves a severe reprimand at the very least. His team disgraces English football.

daedalus

09-30-2003, 02:27 AM

Say, maybe I'm just panicky or something but, uhhh . . .

Having to travel to play in Moscow with 6 of your top players (Sol Campbell, Patrick Vieira, Freddie Ljungberg, Martin Keown, Ashley Cole and Dennis Bergkemp) unavailable after opening the rounds with a 0-3 loss at home qualifies as a BadThing[tm], right?

I can't even picture the back line. Or, maybe, I don't want to. I'm not sure which at the moment.

Katon

10-01-2003, 03:59 PM

Well, that was a very poor result Arsenal got. It was also the best result by any English team this week. Can somebody please explain how Arsenal's nightmare backline made less mistakes than Chelsea's theoretically excellent one?

daedalus

12-03-2003, 04:43 AM

Yay, Gunners!

Okies, it was the Wolves in one of the Cup games. But I'll take it!

I'm glad Kanu is back in the rotation somewhat now.

Has anybody seen Pennant and Volz played this year? How've they done?

Francis_Cole

12-03-2003, 05:37 AM

Pennant has being doing well at leeds... about the only person who is..

Katon

12-03-2003, 11:12 AM

Volz has been playing for Fulham, and as far as I know he's been doing a very good job.

The Wolves win was especially good for you that you managed to score five against a Premiership team without Henry,_who has looked like a one-man offence for much of the season. Apart from him, you really haven't had a reliable source of goals, and you don't have the defence to pull off an endless string of 1-0 wins the way Chelsea are (though your defence has been surprisingly good this season, admittedly).

Speaking of Chelsea and 1-0 wins, did anyone catch Sunday's game? :)

MIJB#19

12-04-2003, 03:38 AM

Originally posted by Katon
Speaking of Chelsea and 1-0 wins, did anyone catch Sunday's game? :) Katon,
I got to admit, Chelsea is doing a lot better then I imagined that would happen.
If they can keep it up the rest of the season (and don't lose at Besiktas), Chelsea can proove that buying a team can work afterall.

Katon

12-04-2003, 10:28 AM

Well, the thing is, the core of our team is exactly the same as last year: Frank Lampard, John Terry, William Gallas, and Carlo Cudicini. We have a very good offence, but strength at the back and in central midfield is what the team is built around, and those four have been major parts. The only position in that core where we don't have a returning option is the other central midfield spot, and buying one core player has always been possible (with good judgement). Mutu and Crespo and Duff and Cole and Veron are all very nice, but we aren't building the team around them. You can't build a team entirely around new signings, I still think.

daedalus

12-04-2003, 03:10 PM

I was wondering about whether or not that was the reason their defense was so tight, in spite of so many new players, too. The 'keeper-central defense-central midfield line seems like the up-the-middle part of baseball [to, y'know, put this in simple terms I can easily understand], which is the most important part of the defense. Maybe it doesn't hurt too that the manager is the same? I mean, I know he has a tendency to tinker and all but at least they know what he wants and how he wants tasks done.

Hooray for Pennant and Voltz doing well! Thanks, y'all. :)

Yeah, I'm absolutely stoked that we managed to do SOMETHING with neither Titi nor Bergkemp in the lineup. Kanu might be able to provide the kind of creativity that Bergkemp apparently usually brings to the table. And now I'm REALLY curious about this Cesc kid. Of course, I have no idea why we're chasing a winger when we could use some help for Sol in the middle of the defense. 'Specially with Father Time having caught up with Martin Keown (as in brittle-ness, not effectiveness). Defense, by gum! Defense!

daedalus

12-04-2003, 03:13 PM

Speaking of Chelsea and their buys, I find it really funny that the guy who kept losing his job (in the paper) every week is their top scorer. Heh.

Katon

12-04-2003, 03:53 PM

You mean Hasslebaink? Well, the reason he keeps losing his job in the paper is that he's our fourth-best striker. Yes, he can score. On the other hand, he's played a lot courtesy of a run earlier in the season he doesn't do anything else and a lot of his goals have been either pinball finishes (i.e. goalie knocks it in off of him/three inches in front of him) or penalties. Crespo, Mutu, and Gudjohnsen can all score as much or almost as much while actually contributing in other ways too.

Katon

12-04-2003, 03:56 PM

Dola,

Our defence has been tight for several reasons:

1. best defensive midfielder in the world (Makelele)
2. best keeper in the Premiership (Cudicini)
3. Terry & Gallas are both back and playing out of their skins, Terry especially
4. Johnson & Bridge are fitting in well with Melchiot & Babayaro around if we want old Chelsea hands
5. Lampard helping out Makelele

rufusjonz

12-04-2003, 04:02 PM

NO WAY is Hasselbank (spelling?) the 4th best striker on Chelsea -- he's probably the best, esp. when it comes to SCORING (which is after all the main purpose of a forward). So he gets some pinball shots -- i seem to watch Shearer sleep for 85% of a game, then nip in for a goal.

daedalus

12-04-2003, 04:34 PM

Originally posted by Katon
You mean Hasslebaink? Well, the reason he keeps losing his job in the paper is that he's our fourth-best striker. Yes, he can score. On the other hand, he's played a lot courtesy of a run earlier in the season he doesn't do anything else and a lot of his goals have been either pinball finishes (i.e. goalie knocks it in off of him/three inches in front of him) or penalties. Crespo, Mutu, and Gudjohnsen can all score as much or almost as much while actually contributing in other ways too.Yeah, Hasslebaink. It was just funny to see him continually be losing his job in the paper and keep seeing his name in the scoring tag. Hee hee.

I've seen Mutu play for Chelsea a few times [Why, oh WHY does Fox keep tormenting me by playing Chelsea instead of Arsenal! :D] and I really like him.

I haven't seen Crespo for any extended period but it's really odd to keep seeing reports of Chelsea games mention the fact that he's missed a few chances. Is this just because he's still not completely connected with his setup guys yet? It probably doesn't help that none of them ever play together for an extended period.

Katon

12-04-2003, 05:46 PM

Originally posted by rufusjonz
NO WAY is Hasselbank (spelling?) the 4th best striker on Chelsea -- he's probably the best, esp. when it comes to SCORING (which is after all the main purpose of a forward). So he gets some pinball shots -- i seem to watch Shearer sleep for 85% of a game, then nip in for a goal.

Speaking as someone who's been a season ticket holder for two seasons and has watched every Chelsea match he could on TV for longer than Hasslebaink has been at the club . . .

he's our fourth-best striker.

Details to follow at some time that ISN'T 11:45 in London.

daedalus

12-04-2003, 06:22 PM

For when you wake up . . . how does the kid they have out on loan rate amongst their strikers?

11:45? 11:45? That isn't late YET! C'mon now! :D

MIJB#19

12-05-2003, 04:59 AM

Hasselbaink

typical Dutch name...
Well, actually not, Hazelbank would have, Hassle is typical English language.

The thing with Hasselbaink is that the only thing he does is score goals. Go ask Belenenses, Boavista, Leeds United and Atletico Madrid (especially the last was weird, Jimmy was league top goal scorer in their relegation year).

Plus, I keep playing him in my Yahoo Fantasy Premiership game, together with Bergkamp and Van Nistelrooij, so I really want to see him back in the lineup...

Katon

12-05-2003, 05:41 AM

Alright, then. Here we go: the Chelsea Striker Ratings, with Mikkell Forsell (on loan to Birmingham) and Carlton Cole (Charlton) added in for fun.

1. Adrian Mutu

Currently going through a bit of a slump, but useful even when he isn't shooting straight. He's a good shot, very skillful, and he works incredibly hard. Mutu is always tackling back, moving into space, running for the ball, and competing for loose balls/headers. Even when he isn't scoring, he still adds a lot to the team, and he can score a lot of goals to boot.

2. Hernan Crespo

Probably going to move up to the first slot when he really gets going. Hasn't quite been firing on all cylinders yet. What he has shown is an ability to create chances (set up Joe Cole to win the penalty last Sunday :) ), a much greater ability to head the ball than any of our other strikers, and great positioning. He can do everything that Hasslebaink can do while working harder and setting up other people.

3. Mikkell Forsell

I've only ever seen him live once, since he's been out on loan the last few years, so it's kind of hard to place him. On the other hand, the fans at each of his last two stops have absolutely loved him, and we're not talking about weak competitions here; a lot of Borussia Monchengladbach fans think he's one of the main reasons they stayed in the top German division last year, and he is probably the single most important player in Birmingham's challenge for the CL this year. He's scored six goals for them; their next-leading scorer has scored two, both penalties. Anyone who can score six in the Premiership with that kind of support has to be pretty good.

4. Eidur Gudjohnsen

Might be anywhere from third to sixth. Has scored six while getting the least playing time of any of our four main strikers. He's also credited with more assists by the Chelsea programme editor than any other striker, although a few of those assists came against MSK Zilina and Notts County, neither of whom are exactly first-rate opposition

5. Jimmy Floyd Hasslebaink

Yes, he's our leading scorer. He's also our first-choice penalty taker and has played the most time of any of our strikers. Claudio seems to think of him as our best choice if Mutu or Crespo is out, which I don't, but never mind. The thing is, he contributes nothing apart from the goals. He doesn't run into useful positions, doesn't try to tackle anyone, doesn't do anything but run into the area and wait for the ball to come to him. The only role he can take in attacking moves is finisher, and so when he's not available we don't look any less threatening on offence. Shearer, to follow your comparison, is completely vital to the Newcastle offence; when we annihilated them a few weeks back, all their fans admitted they were a different (and worse) team without Shearer. You will never hear a Chelsea fan say anything remotely similar about Jimmy.

To come at it from another angle: recently, we played away to Southampton, who got Graeme Le Saux from us over the summer. Jimmy was so lazy and disinterested that Soxy yelled at him just out of habit.

6. Carlton Cole

Carlton's been very effective (for us and for Charlton) at coming on as a supersub and changing games. On the other hand, so far he's never been asked to be the star striker for a high-level club, a job which everyone else on this list has done and done well. Lots of potential, but hasn't done as much yet as any of the other players.

3ric

12-05-2003, 06:05 AM

To come at it from another angle: recently, we played away to Southampton, who got Graeme Le Saux from us over the summer. Jimmy was so lazy and disinterested that Soxy yelled at him just out of habit.

:D

daedalus

12-05-2003, 06:34 AM

Hee hee. :)

daedalus

12-05-2003, 06:36 AM

By the way, care to rate the Arsenal forwards not named Henry? If you haven't had a chance to watch them very much, it's all good. :)

MIJB#19

12-08-2003, 08:26 AM

Originally posted by Katon
5. Jimmy Floyd Hasslebaink

Yes, he's our leading scorer. He's also our first-choice penalty taker and has played the most time of any of our strikers. Claudio seems to think of him as our best choice if Mutu or Crespo is out, which I don't, but never mind. The thing is, he contributes nothing apart from the goals. He doesn't run into useful positions, doesn't try to tackle anyone, doesn't do anything but run into the area and wait for the ball to come to him. The only role he can take in attacking moves is finisher, and so when he's not available we don't look any less threatening on offence. Shearer, to follow your comparison, is completely vital to the Newcastle offence; when we annihilated them a few weeks back, all their fans admitted they were a different (and worse) team without Shearer. You will never hear a Chelsea fan say anything remotely similar about Jimmy.

To come at it from another angle: recently, we played away to Southampton, who got Graeme Le Saux from us over the summer. Jimmy was so lazy and disinterested that Soxy yelled at him just out of habit.I disagree with one important thing:
The name is Jerrel Hasselbaink.
No matter how the Portugese (Jimmy) and English (Floyd) call him.

Other then that, I can't disagree.
I haven't seen much of Hasselbaink, other then some goals and having memories of his few small chances to prove he's Oranje-worthy. And even in Oranje, he's been not much more then the guy who scores the most on average compared to the top5 of today's Dutch strikers (in case needed, they are Van Nistelrooij, Makaay, Kluivert, Hasselbaink and Van Hooijdonk).

Katon

12-08-2003, 10:39 AM

He's been going by Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink pretty steadily over here. You know more about Dutch names than I do, but he's announced as Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink, he's in the programme as Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink, and I've never heard anyone apart from the Dutch use a different name. Which isn't to say you're wrong, but I can't imagine that a consensus name like that would appear without the player's consent.

daedalus

12-08-2003, 05:05 PM

I'd always wondered about that m'self. I thought it was hilarious to see someone from Holland name "Jimmy Floyd".

On the less positive-side, we showed again that we couldn't do a thing without Titi. Joy.

SirFozzie

12-09-2003, 12:35 AM

Just saw the challenge Ashley Cole put in over the weekend.

That is the worst challenge I've seen in years. Two feet out, Studs up, flying in almost like a wrestling dropkick, and that would have put the guy out of soccer for good if he had hit on target.

Hopefully he gets at least 5-10 games.

daedalus

12-09-2003, 04:49 AM

Ick. At least the OTHER people should be coming back from THEIR suspensions by then. Hopefully, the kids will be ready to step in and take advantage of their chances.

MIJB#19

12-09-2003, 07:29 AM

Originally posted by Katon
He's been going by Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink pretty steadily over here. You know more about Dutch names than I do, but he's announced as Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink, he's in the programme as Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink, and I've never heard anyone apart from the Dutch use a different name. Which isn't to say you're wrong, but I can't imagine that a consensus name like that would appear without the player's consent.
As far as i know, this is what basically happened:
- Jerrel Hasselbaink horably failed to show his skill at a few Dutch teams
- Hasselbaink moved to Portugal to play for Belenenses (or was it some other club?)
- The Portugese somehow couldn't pronounce his name and "Pelé"-ed him "Jimmy"
- Hasselbaink moved to Boavista
- Hasselbaink moved to Leeds United
- For some reason, unknown by me, British media added a middle name to the Portugese given first name to create "Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink"
- Now being discovered by the Dutch, he was also known as Jerrel Hasselbaink at home

A name controversy was born.

:)

daedalus

12-25-2003, 04:26 AM

I dig "Jimmy Floyd" more. Gives it that ol' "Dukes of Hazzard" feels to it. :D

I just found out while perusing Soccer America that an Arsenal kiddie defender Frank Simek is American. That is nifty! :) :) :)

Then again, given how unimpressed I've been with team USA's defensive group maybe that's not such a good thing.

Gambit

12-25-2003, 04:23 PM

Wow, Katon has the top 3 and the bottom team perfectly picked out right now I just hope it stays like that :)

daedalus

12-27-2003, 06:47 AM

A question for y'all more familiar with the world of soccer . . .

Isn't Ferdinand's suspension kind of harsh? I mean, he f'ed up (and, to an extent, United did in not making sure he stays), no question about that. But it seemed like he actually made efforts to come back and try to take the test. 2 hours doesn't seem like it'd be enough time for whatever drugs they're testing for to go away, if they think he's trying to hide something.

Who will his replacement be for the remainder of the season? Seems like the candidates are Brown, Neville, O'Shea and Keane. How do they stack up in the middle of the defense?

Also, supposedly United will be chasing a striker to partner with Van Nistelrooij when the transfer window open. Any idea who the main target will be?

For Arsenal, other than a centreback with some potential to grow like Milito (who I wish they'd chased), I'd just like to see Wenger give the kids some chances. I like the team as it looks now. Hopefully, he lets Wiltord walk and give Jeffers, Aliardiere, Volz and Pennant more chances to play next year.

Pumpy Tudors

12-27-2003, 08:46 AM

I haven't looked at this thread in a few months, but I'm shocked to see that it's on the third page and is still about soccer. I just checked out the thread again to see the trout-in-the-rectum reference and, by golly, there wasn't one!

Good show, boys!

SirFozzie

12-27-2003, 08:54 AM

don't give folks ideas :)

Ajaxab

12-27-2003, 10:28 AM

The Ferdinand suspension seems ridiculous by North American standards. Sure Fifa wants its member associations to be tough on drug violations, but if Rio played in the NFL he would have been given a slap on the wrist and the next violation would have led to a suspension. Does anyone else think that the FA should reconsider its policy on drug tests? The first offense should not warrant an eight month ban.

Are Man U still looking at Boumsong?

cornbreaD

12-27-2003, 10:53 AM

Originally posted by daedalus
Also, supposedly United will be chasing a striker to partner with Van Nistelrooij when the transfer window open. Any idea who the main target will be?

I've heard that their main targets are Saha (Fulham) and Viduka (Leeds). I think Fulham is asking for too much for him, so Man U will probably go after Viduka. The Leeds board has said that no one will be sold when the transfer window opens, but this is just crap. Everyone knows how desperate Leeds is for cash, so if Man U comes in with a good offer, Duke is gone.

As a Leeds fan, I'm torn on this. I really like Duke when he is playing his best, but all too often he seems lazy. He has talent, but I'm not convinced about his heart. I wonder if Leeds would be better off without him. The only problem is that there is no one left to replace him. And I would hate to see him go to Man U. It was bad enough watching Ferdinand go, but Duke following suit would be too much!:(

Mac Howard

01-01-2004, 09:58 PM

From an interview with Sir Alex Ferguson - Man Utd manager:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

'Tim Howard has been the star of the show this season,' Ferguson told MUTV.

'He is quick, alert, agile, courageous and has speed. It's all there for us to see.

'I thought I would have to leave him out for a bit in October, but it hasn't happened.'
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'If you look at the other players we brought in during the summer Kleberson had played in a World Cup final; Eric Djemba-Djemba was a Cameroon international; Cristiano Ronaldo had been playing in Portugal's top league with Sporting Lisbon, and David Bellion had been in the Premiership with Sunderland,' said Ferguson.

'Tim didn't have any of that experience, so there was bound to be a question mark over him.

'But Tony Coton was insistent and said `Once you see him there will be no questions'. That was a big statement, but he was right.'
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Howard is not the only American to impress at Old Trafford this season. Teenage duo Jon Spector and Kenny Cooper are making their mark at junior level.

Ferguson believes Spector in particular has a big future and he is not ruling out the possibility of further shopping trips to the States.

'There is an untapped market in America,' he said.

'The kids over there have a fierce will to win. They are real competitors, probably something to do with the way they are brought up.'
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

daedalus

01-02-2004, 03:09 AM

That's awesome! I didn't even know there were other Americans at United. Hopefully, this means we'll get additional good coaching coming toward here and even more good players coming out of it.

GoldenEagle

01-02-2004, 03:11 AM

Originally posted by daedalus
That's awesome! I didn't even know there were other Americans at United. Hopefully, this means we'll get additional good coaching coming toward here and even more good players coming out of it.

You need to keep up daed!

Head over to bigsoccer.com to get caught up.

Francis_Cole

01-02-2004, 08:12 AM

Incase it hasn't been mentioned Man U are selling Barthez (their old #1), which shows how Ü Howard is :)

SirFozzie

01-02-2004, 08:58 AM

He's still a bloody Metroslut in my book.

Speaking of the MLS.. I got an awesome Christmas present from my bro (more like a combo Christmas Present and late late birthday present)..

Season tickets to the Revs.

If any of you FOFCers are in the area and want to attend a game, let me know.

GoldenEagle

01-02-2004, 02:55 PM

Just because he left MLS?

3ric

01-02-2004, 03:34 PM

As a huge Henrik Larsson fan, I'm surprised that he's only courted by the likes of Newcastle and Birmingham. Although I despise ManU, part of me want him to get the recognition from such a team that's looking for a striker to sign (but as he's played in the Champions League this year, he's ineligible for another team).

Also, I'm happy to see that Liverpool seems to be set to complete the long-awaited transfer for Djibril Cissé after the season.

BreizhManu

01-02-2004, 03:58 PM

Originally posted by Francis_Cole
Incase it hasn't been mentioned Man U are selling Barthez (their old #1), which shows how Ü Howard is :)

he is on loan to Marseille, not for sale (with his huge contract nobody can buy him anyway)

SirFozzie

01-03-2004, 12:01 AM

Originally posted by GoldenEagle
Just because he left MLS?

No.. I meant he's a New York/New Jersey Metroslut. ;)

Fucking Metros tried to take over the Fort (The Revolution General Admission Cheering section) when I attended a game betweeen the two teams (we were there for a US game too ;))

Trust me, they got the message they weren't wanted reallll quickly.. the funny thing was, they had their own section next to the fort after it all got sorted out, and we spent most of the time chanting songs concerning their ancestry (and they responded in kind.)

It ended in a 3-3 draw, was a fun game.

daedalus

01-17-2004, 04:06 AM

Has anyone heard anymore news on the transfer front? Both Houllier and Wenger seems to be insisting that they're making no move during this window. I'm at least glad that Wenger doesn't seem to be chasing either Alan Smith or Jermaine Defoe.

*shudder* All we need at Highbury is yet ANOTHER hothead.

I'm a little disappointed to see Volz leave. He's supposedly been doing well, it would've been nice to see a kid developed by Arsenal actually play at Arsenal. Y'know . . . unlike Matty Upson. But . . . we . . . have . . . Cygan! [Who I've heard has actually been doing fairly well this year.]

It could never happen in a million and a half year but I wouldn't mind seeing . . . eeks . . . Nicky Butt toiling for the Gunners instead.

Apparently, Herr Klose is going to leave Germany for greener pasture. His skillset seems fairly limited but he'd be an interesting mix with Henry up front.

Out of curiosity, does anyone else think the Ferdinand ban is rather harsh? That SAID . . . this done up by the Gooners fanzine made me giggle a smidge:

http://www.blogfc.com/images/riophone.jpg

SirFozzie

01-17-2004, 04:45 AM

oof....

Nice to see MLS made some money out of the McBride Transfer (600K either to I think Southampton or Fulham)

Mr. Wednesday

01-17-2004, 06:09 PM

600k pounds, around $1 MM, and it was supposed to be to Blackburn, although there were rumors of late interest by Fulham. Haven't had a chance to check Yanks Abroad at BigSoccer for the latest yet.

I assume everyone already knows about Bocanegra going to Fulham on a free transfer and Clint Mathis getting a trial at Hannover 96 in Germany?

SirFozzie

01-17-2004, 10:01 PM

Actually it's a 2nd trial at Hannover :)

daedalus

01-18-2004, 01:06 AM

It might be just me but I just have never been impressed by Mathis. Am I missing something?

SirFozzie

01-18-2004, 01:18 AM

He's got a deft scoring touch... but he doesn't CREATE.. he just finishes.

Plus he's a Metroslut, so my opinion's biased :)

SirFozzie

01-18-2004, 02:08 AM

Dola: With regards to McBride..

apparently Fulham have decided to acquire him as Saha insurance, and it's just about finalized. He's talking with them this weekend. If it falls through, then he might go back to Blackburn.

Mr. Wednesday

01-18-2004, 12:43 PM

Mathis had a run of terrific form right up until he did his ACL. Then he was a little slow coming back and there were questions about his fitness after he returned. He's never really regained the form he was showing before the injury.

daedalus

01-27-2004, 01:52 PM

Supposedly we've signed Jose Antonio Reyes.

Good News: According to everything I've read, he's incredibly talented.

Bad News: What did this cost us? Does it mean there is someone leaving the Gunners that we'd prefer not to (as in someone other than Sylvain Wiltord)?

Katon

01-27-2004, 02:23 PM

Yes, I was surprised by that too. I have no idea where Arsenal are getting £20,000,000 from, but hopefully I'll run across an explanation in the papers tomorrow. This is especially aggravating as a Chelsea fan because our right wing corps is currently Jesper Gronkjaer and Geremi, neither of whom is in the same league as a Duff or, well, a Reyes, and both of whom are having extremely below-par seasons.

condors

01-27-2004, 03:14 PM

i have seen clint mathis play alot.

he is a clinical finisher can score from outside the 18 (not an easy thing to do)
can finish as free kick as well as anyone (although his service isn't top line)
his workrate has been questioned
he is a hothead
he is injury prone
in the mls could play well in the air(at times) and show terrific pace(neither of these since his last injury that i saw)

i would guess he has a tremendous upside and its not uncommon for a player to be better after being 2 years removed from an acl injury. I just wouldn't expect him to be anything more than a player who sometimes shows flashes but is never consistant.

although i am a dc united fan so...

Easy Mac

01-27-2004, 03:18 PM

I really like Mathis because when he wants to play, he's the best player America has. He can score with both feet, can pass well, is pretty good on the dribble, and can take a free kick well. The problem is getting him to play, as he tends to disappear for long portions of the game. I remember seeing him in the world cup, and while he may not have been fit for the whole time, he just didn't do anything for long stretches of the game. If he is going to be one our best players, he has to work on being more involved and hustle, he can't afford to just stand around and let things come to him.

condors

01-27-2004, 03:19 PM

i would rather have mcbride than mathis any day of the week

has a tremendous workrate (has been known to look like an extra midfielder out there)

best USA target striker ever (not best striker but the best target striker)

has to be marked closely on free kicks and corner kicks

has the ability to head the ball to a teamate making a run creating a scoring chance for the team

i have only read/heard good things about him as a person on and off the pitch

Easy Mac

01-27-2004, 03:22 PM

I think Conor Casey could be the target man upfront for the next generation of US soccer, but he needs to get out of Germany, because he keeps getting stuck on loan at small clubs. He's scoring, but I think he could develop in a better environment.

Critch

01-27-2004, 06:08 PM

i would rather have mcbride than mathis any day of the week

I agree completly, McBride is in a different class than Mathis. Apparently a good number of other clubs agree too as Mathis had failed a number of trials at other clubs before being picked up by Hannover (Glasgow Rangers, Leicester City, Sunderland all turned him down, a few others as well).

Mathis is too much of a hothead, one interesting statistic I read about him was that in his last season with New York he'd got more cards (4 red and 8 yellow I think it was) than goals.

Be interesting to see how McBride does at Fulham, his game is fairly different from Saha's, McBride's stronger and better in the air but nowhere near as quick. I think he's got the talent though if he settles into the team well.

klayman

01-27-2004, 06:51 PM

Supposedly we've signed Jose Antonio Reyes.

Good News: According to everything I've read, he's incredibly talented.

He should be a good fit since he's already suspended for a game :D

Mr. Wednesday

01-27-2004, 07:34 PM

McHead's foot skills are also underrated, he's good at holding the ball.

I suppose I should mention (in case anyone was interested and missed it) that all concerned parties reached an agreement to loan Landon Donovan to Portsmouth, but it's currently run afoul of the FIFA transfer window regulations (if subject to the MLS window on the return, he can't come back until August 15).

daedalus

01-27-2004, 08:33 PM

He should be a good fit since he's already suspended for a game :DIt's all about fitting in, baby! Can't be a Gooner without a suspension or four! :D

I'm just thankful we stayed clear of Alan Smith and Jermaine Defoe.

daedalus

01-27-2004, 08:36 PM

Easy Mac

01-27-2004, 09:09 PM

One thing I notice about McBride is he knows his limitation and work with and within it. I DEFINITELY like his work rate.

I did not know about Donovan's possible loan to Portsmouth. Why is it afoul of the transfer window?
I think it is because the loan would end outside of the MLS transfer window, but within the FIFa transfer window. SO therefore he couldn't move back to SJ until August.

Here is the official line:

FIFA told the U.S. Soccer Federation that it must limit transfers to two periods per year, and MLS can obtain players from foreign teams only from Jan. 1 until March 31 and from Aug. 15 until Sept. 15, rules that are being enforced for the first time this year. "The FIFA regulations, which we're trying to follow, require that we set in conjunction with our league a transfer window, which we've done,'' USSF spokesman Jim Moorhouse said. "That concludes on March 31, and any players coming into the United States have to theoretically arrive before that day.'' Under those rules, Donovan may not be able to return to the San Jose Earthquakes until August. But because the parties are discussing a loan instead of an outright transfer, it's not clear whether the window applies.

Critch

01-27-2004, 10:25 PM

One thing I didn't like about Brian McBride was that headband he used to wear to tie back his goldilocks curls. Made him look like a slightly less butch female soccer player. Hopefully he's stopped doing that now.

FIFA trying to control the transfer windows worldwide is part of their campaign to try and enforce standards that all leagues must stick to, next up their going to try and force through a limit to league sizes where there can be no more than 16 teams in a division. They've gone power mad.

daedalus

01-27-2004, 11:17 PM

I haven't seen McBride wearing any headband recently so perhaps he has stopped.

What's-his-name Blatter just sounds like a PHA [power-hungry asshole].

daedalus

01-27-2004, 11:23 PM

He should be a good fit since he's already suspended for a game :DIt's all about fitting in, baby! Can't be a Gooner without a suspension or four! :DHeh. From the Soccernet article: Then again, as his new manager, Arsene Wenger, joked: 'That just makes me think he has all the qualities to be an Arsenal player!'

Supposedly, the transfer is for £9M initially. With performance, appearances and team success, it could increase to £20M. I guess Wenger figures to have more money by the time that he'd need to send anymore money to Sevilla since the 9 probably cleans out his current budget.

Mac Howard

01-28-2004, 01:01 AM

Or he could be taking a leaf out of Leeds' book ;)

daedalus

01-28-2004, 04:56 AM

Or he could be taking a leaf out of Leeds' book ;)Heh. I hope not! :D

I'd expect more or at least hope for more from Wenger. :)

Here's more information on the transfer:The initial consideration is ?15 million (£10.5m), of which ?10 million is payable (75 apps) immediately. 6.9 m Additional consideration of up to ?9.5 million may become payable, subject to various appearance and performance criteria being satisfied. Arsenal does not expect any of the above sums, other than the initial ?10 million fee, to become payable in its current financial year.So . . . I guess we start with the 10M that Wenger just got and then the rest of the money to be paid out as it (hopefully) trickles in. Not a bad move, really. I'm surprised he went for this instead of going up to 5M on Van Persie, though. Either he really likes the kid or he's really peeved about them going public about his bid for Van Persie.

Entirely unrelated . . . How do you like the Saha signing? Do you expect Manchester United to sign a centreback to cover for Ferdinand or just go with Brown and hope for the best?

daedalus

01-28-2004, 04:59 AM

MIJB#19

01-28-2004, 07:50 AM

Katon

01-28-2004, 12:39 PM

Joe Cole is really a central midfielder. His instinct when he gets the ball out wide isn't to look for the cross, it's to make a run inside. He's playing on the right a fair bit, though, because Frank Lampard also plays in the attacking central midfield slot and Lampard's been the best central midfielder in the league this year.

Geremi can in theory play either on the right or in defensive midfield. He hasn't looked as good as Makelele or Petit (or Scott Parker, if we sign him) in the middle, and he hasn't been given much of a chance on the right since a horrendous performance against Besiktas. Before that, he'd been looking okay on the wing.

daedalus

01-28-2004, 02:00 PM

Hey Daedalus, since you seem to read this thread at least once a week, have you heard about the rumors surrounding Feyenoord's Robin van Persie going to Arsenal?

As off now, Van Persie has the reputation of being the Dutch version of Nicholas Anelka, a very gifted player with a very bad attitude.
At Feyenoord he used to play on the left wing (until recently), but he only wants to play a la Bergkamp, behind the deep striker.

BTW, Van Persie's half sister and my (full) sister are classmates at the moment.I heard they made an initial offer in the range of 3.5-4 million but Feyenoord wanted 5 so they rejected Arsenal's initial bid. Feyenoord then announced the fact that they rejected Arsenal's bid, I guess to try to drum up competition for Van Persie. From an interview, Wenger seemed bothered by the fact that Feyenoord made it public. I can't tell if Wenger was so annoyed by the announcement that he decided to go back to Sevilla with a big bid for Reyes or if he'd been chasing both and was going to go with whoever got it done first. They seem to be similar players (a left winger who can play up front or behind the striker as well).

I still want Van Der Vaart in a Gunners uniform, darn it! :D

condors

01-28-2004, 03:09 PM

Carlos Bocanegra is a player for you overseas people to keep an eye on. He is now a defender for Fulham but he got man of the match playing in the midfield in the last game. I really thought he and eddie pope were the 2 best defenders for the US. Bocanegra is still 24 i believe and i don't recall seeing him ever have a bad game (although i haven't seen all of the Chicago Fire's games). He has pace hops and makes all the right plays. I think he could really turn eyes towards the MLS although i don't know there is anyone else as good as him in there (outside of eddie pope who is now 32? and may not be attractive due to his age for a european club) danny califf is probally the most talented/cardprone defender though maybe Arsenal should send out some scouts.

Mac Howard

01-28-2004, 06:06 PM

>So . . . I guess we start with the 10M that Wenger just got and then the rest of the money to be paid out as it (hopefully) trickles in.

Sounds very much like Leeds to me - buy now, pay later ;)

But Wenger is right to do this and base so much of the cost on his performances with a 20 year old striker. I'd hate to count the number of times I've seen young players at Utd who are going to be the next George Best only to have them disappear from view as they tried their skills in the Premier League.

>Entirely unrelated . . . How do you like the Saha signing?

I have a great weekend coming up - first seeing how Saha will fit in at Utd and then the SuperBowl. Hopefully Saha will succeed and we'll see Utd revert to the exciting, attacking soccer they were known for before Alex Ferguson decided he wanted a more sophisticated game and bought Veron. The soccer from them this season may have been successful but it's been ugly.

>Do you expect Manchester United to sign a centreback to cover for Ferdinand or just go with Brown and hope for the best?

They should but I'm not sure the board are allowing Alex the money. If they do go back to the 4-4-2 formation they will no longer be able to play two defensive midfield players and central defence will come under greater pressure. I don't see Brown and Silvestre being good enough and god knows what happens if they have a couple of injuries :rolleyes:

It's an unnecessarily shallow squad for a club with supposedly the best finances in the world. So much for PLC status!

And with my New England father-in-law coming over to watch the SuperBowl I guess I'll be shouting for the Patriots Monday morning. Or maybe I should be contrary :D.

rufusjonz

01-28-2004, 06:27 PM

daedalus

01-29-2004, 02:06 AM

So . . . I guess we start with the 10M that Wenger just got and then the rest of the money to be paid out as it (hopefully) trickles in.Sounds very much like Leeds to me - buy now, pay later ;)That's possible but I don't think so so much. It seemed to me that Leeds spent an enormous amount (in the neighborhood of 90M, I think?) on the premise that what they make in the Champion's League will cover the bill. In this case, Wenger is buying one player where the initial outlay of the cash is with money that's in his spending budget (10M). Then, as team and player performances and Reyes' appearances for Spain comes about, pay further. (As a Gunners fan, of course, I hope they end up having to pay EVERYTHING else since, y'know, that'd mean we've done pretty well.) Given that future payment should be in the range of 6-10M (depending on which report you read), it sounds fair sum to expect to be in Wenger's transfer budget in the next year or two (since he had 10M to work with this winter) even from just league and TV money and nothing to do with pinning all hopes on Champion's League money or appearance. I'm guessing selling Volz helped added further fund to this budget (although I'm rather sad to see him go without having gotten a chance at Highbury).But Wenger is right to do this and base so much of the cost on his performances with a 20 year old striker. I'd hate to count the number of times I've seen young players at Utd who are going to be the next George Best only to have them disappear from view as they tried their skills in the Premier League.Hee hee. Absolutely! I always wondered why more teams do not do so. Especially when buying younger players.Entirely unrelated . . . How do you like the Saha signing?I have a great weekend coming up - first seeing how Saha will fit in at Utd and then the SuperBowl. Hopefully Saha will succeed and we'll see Utd revert to the exciting, attacking soccer they were known for before Alex Ferguson decided he wanted a more sophisticated game and bought Veron. The soccer from them this season may have been successful but it's been ugly.As a fan of Arsenal who've had to deal with them not always being able to close the deal, I'd take some "ugly but successful"! As Vieira has said, Manchester United just seems to knows how to win when it counts - ugly or attractive - and Arsenal has to learn that. (We will too! Darn it!)

How do you see Saha fitting in with Van Nistelrooij? At least as far as how their games will work together.Do you expect Manchester United to sign a centreback to cover for Ferdinand or just go with Brown and hope for the best?They should but I'm not sure the board are allowing Alex the money. If they do go back to the 4-4-2 formation they will no longer be able to play two defensive midfield players and central defence will come under greater pressure. I don't see Brown and Silvestre being good enough and god knows what happens if they have a couple of injuries :rolleyes:

It's an unnecessarily shallow squad for a club with supposedly the best finances in the world. So much for PLC status!What about O'Shea as a centreback cover? Or is he out on the flank nowadays?And with my New England father-in-law coming over to watch the SuperBowl I guess I'll be shouting for the Patriots Monday morning. Or maybe I should be contrary :D.Be contrary! Just for kicks! :D

Mac Howard

01-29-2004, 08:19 AM

>How do you see Saha fitting in with Van Nistelrooij? At least as far as how their games will work together.

I really don't know and that's why I'm looking forward to the game in the hope I might get some idea.

Van Nistelrooy is one of those strikers that utterly dominates the penalty area and makes it difficult for other strikers to play with him. You need a mobile selfless player to move around him and support him - put in a few goals but mainly create the space and chances for the other guy. Beardsley did it for Lineker, Bellamy does it for Shearer (notice how their performance has deteriorated since Bellamy was injured?). Liverpool have a similar problem with Owen. Not many of this type of player around.

I'm not sure Saha will be that sort of player but at least he seems to complement van Nistelrooy's abilities - he's fast, mobile and good in the air (desperately needed by Utd with so many crosses going to waste) while van Nistelrooy is the goal poacher supreme (sometimes difficult to understand why he scores so often his dominant skills are so elusive to define). Hopefully the two of them together will provide defences with much variation to deal with - occasionally, recently defences have wrapped up van Nistelrooy on his own.

So, I'm looking forward to the next few matches to see how it all pans out.

>What about O'Shea as a centreback cover? Or is he out on the flank nowadays?

O'Shea is one of those young players that came through with a bang but disappoints in the following season. He's not nearly the player he was last season. His confidence seems shattered, he's making simple mistakes. Never quite sure what it is that causes this drop in form (I've tried to duplicate it in SaaP with limited success) but it occurs so often (hence my George Best comment). I wouldn't like to see him back at CB in this season's form - but one injury to Brown or Silvestre and that's what we'll have :(

>Be contrary! Just for kicks!

Being a Utd fan I'm used to being on the winning side and, though I don't pretend to be a great judge, I believe that may well be the Patriots. :) Maybe I should do what my 8 year old daughter does:

"Who's winning, dad?"

"The team in red, Georgie"

"I'm backing the team in red, dad, your's is the one in blue. Icecream for me if red wins!"

Never mentions what's in it for me if blue wins :rolleyes:

Mr. Wednesday

01-30-2004, 12:56 AM

Carlos Bocanegra is a player for you overseas people to keep an eye on. He is now a defender for Fulham but he got man of the match playing in the midfield in the last game.Not midfield, outside back. U.S. observers tend to think he's more naturally a center back (or an outside marking back in a three-D formation), because he doesn't have quite the attacking skills you'd like in an outside back in a four-D formation. Hence, he was playing out of position, but not as drastically out of position as if he'd been in midfield.

daedalus

01-30-2004, 02:22 AM

Van Nistelrooy is one of those strikers that utterly dominates the penalty area and makes it difficult for other strikers to play with him. You need a mobile selfless player to move around him and support him - put in a few goals but mainly create the space and chances for the other guy. Beardsley did it for Lineker, Bellamy does it for Shearer (notice how their performance has deteriorated since Bellamy was injured?). Liverpool have a similar problem with Owen. Not many of this type of player around.By sheer luck and because Manchester United gets televised on the Tuesday Fox game a lot, I've gotten to see Van Nistelrooij more than I've seen Henry play and I have to admit, I really like Van Nistelrooij. He's an awesome player. (As an aside, in the one game I saw Kluivert play for Barcelona during the preseason tour, I thought he was really similar to Van Nistelrooij. Perhaps that is their problem when playing together for the Dutch team?) So does Van Nistelrooij need more of a speed guy like, say, Vassell to draw attention away from him or does he need more of a target man like, say, Emile Heskey to get connect with (arguments of the qualities of said names aside)? Didn't he and Solskjaer worked together pretty well?O'Shea is one of those young players that came through with a bang but disappoints in the following season. He's not nearly the player he was last season. His confidence seems shattered, he's making simple mistakes. Never quite sure what it is that causes this drop in form (I've tried to duplicate it in SaaP with limited success) but it occurs so often (hence my George Best comment). I wouldn't like to see him back at CB in this season's form - but one injury to Brown or Silvestre and that's what we'll have :(That sucks. Is it just poor form or is he just not up to the quality that United need? At least if it's just poor form and a confidence problem, maybe he'll recover next year and be back to his old self.Being a Utd fan I'm used to being on the winning side and, though I don't pretend to be a great judge, I believe that may well be the Patriots. :) Maybe I should do what my 8 year old daughter does:

"Who's winning, dad?"

"The team in red, Georgie"

"I'm backing the team in red, dad, your's is the one in blue. Icecream for me if red wins!"

Never mentions what's in it for me if blue wins :rolleyes:Heh. :D

daedalus

01-30-2004, 02:30 AM

As an aside, further details on Reyes' signing (http://sport.independent.co.uk/football/arsenal/story.jsp?story=485640):An immediate £7.1m will be paid this financial year, £3.55m next year, and a potential £6.79m over the period of the four-and-a-half-year contract, dependent on various criteria including the club's success in Europe.Something interesting about this is that this means that Wenger didn't use up all of his supposed £10m for this winter. That leaves the door open for a possibility, however remote, of the supposed £1.5m transfer for Patrick Kluivert this summer if Wenger thinks they can get along or even another possible approach for Van Persie if Feyenoord would be willing to work out a deal with some deferred payment and some performance clauses like Sevilla did. The one game I saw Kluivert in during the preseason tour, I was really impressed with him. Still, I'd rather see Kanu be given a full chance with Aliadiere popping in from time to time along with Bentley. (Assuming Reyes stays with Pires out on the wing next season.)

MIJB#19

01-30-2004, 11:10 AM

Daed,

Kanu and Kluivert made a fine couple at Ajax, but Kluivert is really more of a deep striker. Kluivert and Henry? that will not work, I think.
Kluivert and Van Nistelrooij only had one succesful game together in Oranje, when they tore the German defense appart in a friendly. Kluivert is now demoted to backup for Ruud and Van der Vaart.
Van der Vaart could be more of an addition to Arsenal, though I'd rather see Van Perise leave the Dutch league. And with ManU trying to get Robben to play around Ruud, the top of English football could get even more Orange in the future.

The Van Persie deal is said to be off overhere, as Reyes is said to play the same position (Arsenal still has Ljungberg and Pires to play there as well, right?) But if Reyes is the same type of player, why would Arsenal rather pay double to get Reyes?
Van Persie was demoted back to the left wing at Feyenoord, yet the guy keeps on playing like he is supposed to be on the right wing, left wing and in the center... He does get involved in most of the goals, but wheter it is good to not do what the trainer wants is something different...

BTW, Kluivert had a limited transfer fee of 1M Euro last summer, yet not a single team took the bait. The most serious club was rumoured to be the current laughing stock of the Dutch eredivise, FC Zwolle...

Blade6119

01-30-2004, 11:16 AM

MIJB#19

01-30-2004, 11:22 AM

People are still overseeing John O'Brien, the key defensive midfielder in Japan and Korea. O'Brien is one of few players who Ajax coach Koeman want to play every game and he has finally returned from his injury after 6 months of absence.

Desnudo

01-30-2004, 11:48 AM

The US has to be up and coming worldwide...unless Arena is just a weak coach tactic-wise and technique-wise. I still have questions about that.

We now have:
3 world class Goalkeepers (Howard should definitely be US #1)
2 Premier League level strikers (McBride, Donovan)
1 Premier League captain midfielder (Reyna, when not injured)
1 up and coming finesse winger (DeMarcus Beasley)
1 14 year old prodigy (Freddie Adu)
plus several other players playing in top euro divisions (Bocanegra, Lewis, a few others I cant think of right now).

Optimism time!

I think Donovan and McBride still need to prove that they're "premier level," and Reyna is getting a bit creaky. Still things look very good for the US. The thing that I think the US has always been missing, and still is, is that creative force in the midfield. They always seem so blah, almost German even. Hopefully the arrival of Adu will change the way youngsters approach soccer. I'd love to see more salsa and less white bread.

Mac Howard

01-30-2004, 07:49 PM

>So does Van Nistelrooij need more of a speed guy like, say, Vassell to draw attention away from him or does he need more of a target man like, say, Emile Heskey to get connect with (arguments of the qualities of said names aside)?

He needs a mobile, selfless player to take the pressure of him, come up with a few assists and preferably goes on to score 15-20 goals a season himself to boost the overall total. But effective strikers are not known for their selflessnes - unlike Henry, RvN doesn't produce many assists, he's so totally focused on scoring himself.

>Didn't he and Solskjaer worked together pretty well?

No. They don't play together at all well. Solksjaer is a goal poacher himself and they just don't work together well. I thought Alex should have used Dwight Yorke more, I think he could have supported RvN the way he supported Cole, but Dwight was too keen on the nightlife for Alex. Good to see him doing well now at Blackburn - he's a classy player with far too casual an attitude for most managers - Souness and Yorke do have their problems :)

Unfortunately for Solksjaer his best role is still as sub when Utd need a goal with 20 minutes to go.

>That sucks. Is it just poor form or is he just not up to the quality that United need?

It's difficult to say but it does happen a lot - a young player breaks through into the team, looks like a future star and then fades in his second season. Rooney isn't having anything like the season he had last for example.

It may be that we're more sympathetic with young players and forgive them their errors more easily and then have expectations the following season that demands the progress we saw should continue. Then we become more critical.

O'Shea's problem seems to be one of confidence. He makes a couple of plays. They don't come for him and suddenly he's struggling and the simple errors creep in. And for defenders it only needs a couple of errors to make it look as if they've had a rotten match. Forwards can get away with more - a blatant missed chance can be forgotten if the next chance is converted.

>At least if it's just poor form and a confidence problem, maybe he'll recover next year and be back to his old self.

Hope so because Utd are very short of defenders if Ferdinand doesn't have his ban reduced.

................................................................................................................
"Who's winning, dad?"

"The team in red, Georgie"

"I'm backing the team in red, dad, your's is the one in blue. Icecream for me if red wins!"

Never mentions what's in it for me if blue wins

Heh.
..............................................................................................................

She's never got a hold of the idea that a bet means losing something if lost - not getting the icecream is her idea of paying her dues. My wife says I spoil her. I say it's my way of getting to watch football games instead of Disney :rolleyes:

daedalus

01-31-2004, 02:28 AM

Kanu and Kluivert made a fine couple at Ajax, but Kluivert is really more of a deep striker.Makes sense as Kanu seems to be at his best playing just behind the striker. So is Dennis. What is that? Some kind of Ajax thing? :D

By the way, did you know we have another product of the Ajax youth system on the roster? Yup, another striker . . . Quincy Owusu-Abeyie.Kluivert and Henry? that will not work, I think.It's possible, depending on how much Kluivert is willing to NOT be the focus. Henry seems to do a good job of roaming all over the place so that'd leave the box for Kluivert to take care of.Kluivert is now demoted to backup for Ruud and Van der Vaart.
Van der Vaart could be more of an addition to Arsenal, though I'd rather see Van Perise leave the Dutch league.Yeah, I would've thought an attacking playmaker to match up with Vieira in the middle would've been nice. Sadly, I haven't heard very much in the way of rumours connecting him to us.The Van Persie deal is said to be off overhere, as Reyes is said to play the same position (Arsenal still has Ljungberg and Pires to play there as well, right?) But if Reyes is the same type of player, why would Arsenal rather pay double to get Reyes?Apparently, Wenger has been a big fan of the kid since he was 17. They've had one of their scout following Sevilla for a bit. I'm sure his game against Real didn't hurt. Everything I've read have had Reyes and Van Persie being the same type of players (natural left-winger who can play in the middle or behind the striker). A big possibility for chasing Reyes and Van Persie is that Wenger is looking to make sure to have a replacement for Pires on hand. He's tried Bentley out there without as much success. This would allow Reyes to be on the left wing with Bentley behind the striker, occupying Dennis' spot. Interestingly, though, in the introduction press conference, Wenger mentioned foreseeing Reyes growing into the striker role.Van Persie was demoted back to the left wing at Feyenoord, yet the guy keeps on playing like he is supposed to be on the right wing, left wing and in the center... He does get involved in most of the goals, but wheter it is good to not do what the trainer wants is something different...Ouch. Sounds hard-headed. That doesn't sound like he'd make a very good match for Wenger.BTW, Kluivert had a limited transfer fee of 1M Euro last summer, yet not a single team took the bait. The most serious club was rumoured to be the current laughing stock of the Dutch eredivise, FC Zwolle...Yeah, I was following that as well. I was really shocked that nobody bit on that, given his past accomplishments and reputation. Why is it you think nobody took a chance? Besides his high wage bill (which is why Sylvain Wiltord isn't in Paris right now).

daedalus

01-31-2004, 02:43 AM

He needs a mobile, selfless player to take the pressure of him, come up with a few assists and preferably goes on to score 15-20 goals a season himself to boost the overall total. But effective strikers are not known for their selflessnes - unlike Henry, RvN doesn't produce many assists, he's so totally focused on scoring himself.He needs . . . Nwankwo Kanu! :D

Gawds, I hope that never happens. I think having him behind RvN would cause a havoc for the rest of the EPL. And it'd come back to haunt the Gunners terribly.It's difficult to say but it does happen a lot - a young player breaks through into the team, looks like a future star and then fades in his second season. Rooney isn't having anything like the season he had last for example.With baseball, there's a lot of instances of "sophomore jinxes". It generally has to do with teams adjusting to the young player and that player still learning to adapt to that (he can't hit curveballs, he can be pitched to inside, etc). I'm not sure if or how that phenomena can be translated to football/soccer.O'Shea's problem seems to be one of confidence. He makes a couple of plays. They don't come for him and suddenly he's struggling and the simple errors creep in. And for defenders it only needs a couple of errors to make it look as if they've had a rotten match. Forwards can get away with more - a blatant missed chance can be forgotten if the next chance is converted.Yeah, goalkeepers and defenders seems to be in the same boat as American football cornerbacks. Every mistake is glaring. But at least if the problem is only a confidence issue, he can recover. Maybe after a relaxing offseason and a nice preseason tour, he'll be back to his old self.

Hey, if worse comes to worse, we'll be glad to swap Pascal Cygan to you gusy for him. :DHope so because Utd are very short of defenders if Ferdinand doesn't have his ban reduced.Maybe someone else from the reserve team can step in. Ferguson seems to have done a good job in the past of bringing along young players and having them play well.

At the least, United will probably be one of the few buyers this offseason.She's never got a hold of the idea that a bet means losing something if lost - not getting the icecream is her idea of paying her dues. My wife says I spoil her. I say it's my way of getting to watch football games instead of Disney :rolleyes:Heh. Sounds like she's right and you DO spoil her! :D

Maybe you can bet her Disney versus football. :)

Mac Howard

01-31-2004, 06:03 AM

Well in half an hour's time Disney goes anyway - it's Utd v Southampton and the first chance to see Saha alongside van Nistelrooy. Georgie's already been told that The Neverending Story is about to end! ;)

I learn there's another addition to the weekend - Arsenal are set up for tomorrow (Sunday) night's match (and a chance to see Reyes) followed by Chelsea. Now that's a weekend - Utd on Saturday, Arsenal then Chelsea on Sunday and the SuperBowl on Monday morning. I suspect I'm going to use up a lot of goodwill this weekend :)

Mac Howard

02-02-2004, 12:00 AM

Well, Saha played very well - scored one and one assist. He looked just the player we want - mobile, skillful, has vision, worked for the team, shoots well from distance, challenges effectively for the high balls, complements RvN well (though the chemistry has yet to come). Just what we want!

Unfortunately the rest of the team played like cr_p! How they came away with a 3-2 win is beyond me. Still, as you've doubtless learned from your smg experience, if you boost attacking play you lose some of your defensive play. Utd certainly did that.

Tim Howard had a mixed game - made some great saves but also some Barthez-like errors. With the defence panicking in front of him he looked much less assured.

Did you see Reyes?

Blade6119

02-02-2004, 12:07 AM

Well, a lot of American activity recently. Mcbride and Mathis both scored in their European debuts(both wins), and now Zach Thornton will be the 4th U.S. keeper to a major Foreign Club...looks to me like trying to get on a trend, since i feel the first 3 were in a seperate class..but i might be wrong...

And now donovan's move to portsmouth is up in the air...looking like it wont go through after all, though i think he is to some european club(most likely england) in the near future.

Mr. Wednesday

02-02-2004, 12:11 AM

The move to Portsmouth is definitely off, since it had to happen more than 24 hours ago to make it in before the close of the midseason transfer window.

Katon

02-03-2004, 05:00 PM

Well, Reyes can definitely finish. His first start for Arsenal and he's already scoring the game-winner. Nice shot, completely wrongfooted the keeper from the edge of the area.

Now if only he could remember which way he was going.

:)

Mac Howard

02-03-2004, 06:04 PM

Trying to steal Gary Neville's thunder, eh? :)

daedalus

02-03-2004, 10:10 PM

Easy Mac

02-03-2004, 10:14 PM

Did anyone else hear that Cory Gibbs and Jovan Kirovski are coming to the MLS?

I think Gibbs cold have stayed overseas and done well, but the MLS must have offered him a nice contract. This had to be in the works for a while, because I think he turned down an offer from like Hannover or something.

And its about damn time Kirovski came back here. He's been wasting away in Europe for years... maybe he can get hooked up to the juvenation machine or something, because he's got sooo much raw talent.

Blade6119

02-03-2004, 10:20 PM

i think with mathis, mcbride, and thornton all leaving they have some money to spend

Blade6119

02-04-2004, 10:28 AM

Bundesliga veteran joins L.A.

Associated Press

CARSON, Calif. -- Midfielder Andreas Herzog, a two-time member of Austria's World Cup team, signed with the Los Angeles Galaxy.

Terms of the contract were not announced. Herzog is the first Austrian to join an MLS team.

"I'm very excited to be joining the L.A. Galaxy,'' Herzog said in a statement Tuesday. "Not only am I thrilled at the opportunity to come to the United States and play, but also to be able to suit up for the marquee club in MLS.

"This is a club that has the talent to make another run at the MLS Cup in 2004 and I hope to be a major part of that.''

The 35-year-old Herzog has played 18 seasons of professional soccer, including 10 in the German Bundesliga and seven in the Austrian Bundesliga. He played with Rapid Vienna of Austria's First Division last season.

Herzog has also played in 103 games with Austria's national team, including the 1990 and '98 World Cups.

"The acquisition of Andreas provides the Galaxy with a player who possesses great ability and a proven track record at the highest levels,'' general manager Doug Hamilton said. "He is technically sound, a player whose vision and passing can open the game for his teammates as well as make him a threat on goal.''

Easy Mac

02-04-2004, 10:29 AM

And just when I thought the MLS had quit the practice of picking up old useless foreigners. There goes a promising young player's spot.

daedalus

02-04-2004, 03:00 PM

Isn't that what they did with the last league and had been trying to avoid this time?

Mac Howard

02-04-2004, 06:00 PM

The rapacious appetite of the major leagues for the best players regardless of where they come from and the wish of older, fading players to extend their careers doesn't do any favours for developing leagues. The quality here in the Australian leagues is very poor. It's said that the best 200 players are playing abroad - few Aussies have problems qualifying to play in European leagues as most are, or descendants of, recently immigrated citizens. Imagine what would happen to the EPL, Serie A, La Liga etc if you took the best 10 players from the twenty top clubs :rolleyes:

Critch

02-04-2004, 07:24 PM

Sitting at work this afternoon I was contemplating vanishing off early to hit one of the bars in DC to watch the Spurs vs Man City English FA Cup game. In the end work got the better of the decision, so I stayed at work keeping up to date with the score thanks to the wonderful internet.

By half-time it's 3-0 to Spurs and Man City have had a player sent off so looks like I made the right decision not losing an hour or two of work. Turns out instead that I missed one of the greatest comebacks ever. Man City, down to 10 men and playing away from home, scored 4 in the second half including a last minute winner. Spurs 3-4 Man City, final score.

What a game. Once more work gets in the way of me seeing a great game. I friggin hate work.

daedalus

02-06-2004, 01:30 AM

That's a crazy, crazy comeback.

A really harsh article on Martin Keown (http://www.football365.com/Fun_Games/Fun_Features/story_99266.shtml). But incredibly hilarious. Heh.

ice4277

02-06-2004, 05:05 AM

Blade6119

02-06-2004, 10:42 AM

Rising star leaves Europe to play in MLS

ESPN Soccernet.com news services

DALLAS - The Dallas Burn acquired defender Cory Gibbs on Thursday. Gibbs, 24, has spent the last three years with St. Pauli of the regional Bundesliga.

"We're very excited to have Cory on board," said Burn head coach Colin Clarke. "I spoke to a lot of people regarding Cory before we consummated the deal and I heard nothing but good things about him both on and off the field ... He's got a great future ahead of him and we're looking for him to be the mainstay of our defense for years to come."

Gibbs joined St. Pauli in 2001 and became the youngest American to play a full 90 minutes in the Bundesliga and his goal vs. F.C. Cologne on November 24, 2001 made him the youngest American to score a goal in the Bundesliga. From 2001-04, Gibbs appeared in 65 career matches with St. Pauli.

Gibbs has seven caps with the U.S. National Team, making his debut as a substitute in the Confederations Cup tune-up vs. New Zealand on June 8, 2003. Gibbs was also a member of the starting eleven for both matches against Brazil in 2003.

"I'm excited not only to be joining the Burn but to be coming back to America," said Gibbs. "I had a great experience in Germany but I felt that playing in MLS and playing with the Burn was a great situation for me. I'm just excited about the overall situation."

Well...this is the exact oppostie of what i expected after the signing of that old austrian guy...

Blade6119

02-06-2004, 04:11 PM

Kirovski leaves Birmingham to join MLS

ESPN Soccernet.com news services

CARSON, Calif. -- The Los Angeles Galaxy signed U.S. National Team forward Jovan Kirovski on Friday.

The Galaxy using their allocation received from the retirement of Mauricio Cienfuegos acquired Kirovski, who joins the club after a two-year stint with Birmingham City of the English Premier League.

"I'm very excited to join the L.A. Galaxy, I've been thinking about coming back to play in the U.S. for a long time. Being from Southern California, this is a great opportunity for me to come home and have all of my family and friends around me," said Kirovski.

One of the United States' most experienced internationals, Kirovski has played with several of the top clubs in Europe, boasting stints at Manchester United, Borussia Dortmund and Sporting Lisbon. He began his professional career in Europe as a 15-year-old, joining Manchester United's youth program in 1992.

A member the U.S. National Team since 1994, Kirovski has made 59 international appearances. Kirovski boasts nine goals with the full U.S. National Team, ranking him in the top 20 all-time.

"We're thrilled to add Jovan to the Galaxy's growing offensive arsenal," said Galaxy head coach Sigi Schmid. "He is anxiously awaiting an opportunity to play first team football on a regular basis and is a player that by his performance with the Galaxy can earn his ticket to the World Cup in 2006."

The 27-year-old Kirovski started his professional career in 1992 signing with world-renowned club Manchester United, joining their reserve team. For the next four years, Kirovski played with Manchester United's A and B squads and was part of the same class that produced English stars David Beckham and Ryan Giggs.

In 1996, Kirovski signed with Bundesliga champion Borussia Dortmund in August. For the next two seasons (1996-98), he played in 20 games with Dortmund, scoring his first professional goal for Dortmund in a Champions' League match vs. Sparta Prague in a 3-0 win on Dec. 10, 1996.

Next, Borussia Dortmund sent Kirovski on a one-year loan to second division club Fortuna Cologne. With Fortuna Cologne, Kirovski scored two goals in 20 appearances. He returned to Dortmund for the 1999-2000 season, but did not make an appearance. In 2000, he joined Portuguese league champion Sporting Lisbon for a season, making five appearances all as a substitute.

He then moved to the English first division signing with former EPL club Crystal Palace. Joining U.S. National Team teammate Greg Berhalter at Crystal Palace, Kirovski posted one of his best seasons playing in 26 games - 22 starts - with five goals, three of which were game winners, as an attacking midfielder.

Most recently, he spent two seasons with Birmingham City of the EPL, playing in 20-plus games and scoring two goals.

Mac Howard

02-13-2004, 09:09 PM

Saha has been picked for the French squad. It would be interesting to see how he plays alongside Henry, daedalus.

daedalus

02-14-2004, 01:06 AM

Saha has been picked for the French squad. It would be interesting to see how he plays alongside Henry, daedalus.It'd be really, really interesting. If I understand correctly Coleman plays 4-5-1 with Fulham and he did well in that so he should fit well with Henry in the poacher/scorer role with Henry's passing ability and tendency to roam a little more. Do you think he and Henry will mesh better than Henry and Trezuget?

Entirely unrelated, I STILL can't believe Ferguson didn't buy a centreback.

BreizhManu

02-14-2004, 02:23 AM

It'd be really, really interesting. If I understand correctly Coleman plays 4-5-1 with Fulham and he did well in that so he should fit well with Henry in the poacher/scorer role with Henry's passing ability and tendency to roam a little more. Do you think he and Henry will mesh better than Henry and Trezuget?

I don't think so

He'll do better with Trezeguet or Cissé (pure strikers) than with Henry.

daedalus

02-14-2004, 03:28 AM

Oh? Why so? (I've never seen Saha or Cissé play.)

Mac Howard

02-14-2004, 08:03 AM

I've been very impressed by what I've seen of Saha so far, particularly his mobility and his intelligent use of the ball. I had thought that he may have been too much of a penalty box man to work with van Nistelrooy well but that just isn't the case. He works well with RvN already, comes back and links with midfield and still finds time to break through into the box and become the target man. No complaints at all so far.

Whether he will work as well with Henry, I'm not sure. Henry himself likes to move around and be provider rather than just finishing. The two in fact may be quite similar in style. BreizhManu may well be right - it could be he works best with a fixed striker. Interesting times for him - 3 matches with a quality team and he's into the French squad.

And as for the central defender - Utd needed another quality centreback BEFORE Ferdinand's ban. Now it's a matter of desperation! :rolleyes:

daedalus

02-18-2004, 01:11 AM

This will be interesting to see what happens with Henry and Trezeguet both out on hurt and Cissé out on stupidity. Does this leave the front line as Saha - Marlet? How does that work out?

As far as Manchester United's defense goes, do they have any of the kids ready to step in? What's the likelihood of the much talk about move of pulling Keane back for centreback duty?

GoldenEagle

02-18-2004, 01:15 AM

As far as Manchester United's defense goes, do they have any of the kids ready to step in? What's the likelihood of the much talk about move of pulling Keane back for centreback duty?

Johnathan Spector :D

daedalus

02-26-2004, 12:12 AM

Ouch. With Ferdinand out and now Silvestre's injury, maybe we'll see Spector much earlier than Ferguson intended!

I guess it's Keane and O'Shea in the middle for now?

SirFozzie

02-26-2004, 03:18 AM

I wonder with Keane's dismissal in the first leg of the CL game against Porto (Porto 2-1 ManU!!!0 who will play in defense for ManYoo in the 2nd leg..

daedalus

02-26-2004, 04:14 AM

Yikes. That's harsh.

Looks like Neville gets to try to work with either O'Shea or Brown. Wonder if Brown is ready for 90 minutes yet.

MIJB#19

02-26-2004, 04:17 AM

Maybe ManU should readdopt the good old Brazilian style from the 60s and 70s: "Football means scoring more goals than the opponent"
Obviously, 1-0 will suffice, but with the latest defensive form, reaching a 3-goal margin early on would seem like a better plan.

SirFozzie

02-26-2004, 06:49 AM

Fun to see the picture on soccernet.... looks painful, Keane looks like he's using the Porto goalie as a stepmaster ;)

Katon

03-02-2004, 10:56 AM

And as if United weren't having enough trouble, their latest target at PSV just signed for a certain other English club :) . I don't really know that much about Robben as a player, but everything I've heard suggests he's a great signing.

Calis

03-02-2004, 11:20 AM

Sheesh, Chelsea is just going crazy this year. There is no limit to the Russian Mob's coffers. ;) I've never seen this kid play, but yeah, from what I've read he sounds like quite a catch.

I've just recently started getting into things this year, I'm usually a late bloomer waiting for American Football to get finished up before delving in. So now I'm busy trying to catch up with everything that's happened the last 6 months or so. Lot of info.

Must've watched the Fulham vs. Man U match on FSW about 5 times the last few days, why I'm not exactly sure. I'm just curious, I know I've read a lot of people critizicing Ronaldo for MannyU, but has he been playing like he did that match? Think the kid looks to have huge potential. He was really the only thing going for them that match. They looked horrible.

Also got a chance to watch Cisse for Auxerre. That boy can play as well, I'm sure he'll be moving on soon enough.

Wish I could watch more. I'm passed the stage where it was awesome to be able to watch anything when I first got FSW, and now I want more.

I STILL haven't found an EPL team that I want to root for. I've got to make a decision soon. I'm a Celtic fan first and foremost, but that's just not cutting it anymore. There's not a whole lot of suspense there, and only the pain of them choking in Europe every year.

MIJB#19

03-02-2004, 03:19 PM

Arjen Robben is the best guy in the country to play left wing.
Forget Zenden.
Forget Overmars.
Forget Van Persie.
Arjen Robben is the name of the guy who just sold his soul to Chelsea to play 25 games a year.

But really, Robben is so young and such a great player already.
I really hope he get's to play a lot at Chelsea and doesn't get into a yuk-rotation-yuk system...

Katon

03-02-2004, 04:43 PM

klayman

03-02-2004, 05:57 PM

Also got a chance to watch Cisse for Auxerre. That boy can play as well, I'm sure he'll be moving on soon enough.

Cisse is moving to Liverpool for 14.5 million in the summer as far as I know.

Chief Rum

03-02-2004, 06:04 PM

No, he's been bought by Chelsea. Oh wait, that's just in my dynasty. :)

CR

klayman

03-02-2004, 06:06 PM

No, he's been bought by Chelsea. Oh wait, that's just in my dynasty. :)

CR
Bastard! Scared me there for a second. :)

Mr. Wednesday

03-02-2004, 08:51 PM

I STILL haven't found an EPL team that I want to root for.Fulham, Blackburn, ManU, ManCity, and Tottenham all have first-team Yanks abroad playing. Fulham and ManCity are the only ones with field players.

I like to see all five do well, but if push came to shove at this point, I'd probably go with Fulham.

(Which is funny, because two years ago I was in line with everyone else who thought Fulham was evil for jerking Eddie Lewis around. :p)

MIJB#19

03-03-2004, 03:13 AM

Oh, don't worry, I'd already forgotten Zenden. Is Robben a pure left winger, or can he play elsewhere (ie on the right or up front)? I'm sure Ranieri has some plan for how to play Robben and Duff at the same time, but I have absolutely no idea what it is. There must be a plan, though. Unless Geremi suddenly hits form, Robben and Duff will be our only two moderately competent wide players*, and considering how much we've needed an extra spark of creativity this season I can't see Ranieri making them compete with each other for a starting slot.

* note: this is not to say they're only moderately competent. When he's healthy, Duff is the best winger in the Premiership, and from what I've heard Robben is right up there.Providing Robben get's used to the level of play in the Premiership, Robben should be a better left winger then Damien Duff.
Robben can play as a fake-striker too, the kind of #10 guy that comes from behind the real striker.
Robben will be the left winger at Euro2004 for the Dutch team, unless he get's injured, so you'll have a couple of games to get to see him play on a high level.
Putting him on the right wing should be a waste of talent really, he's improved his right leg the last months significantly, but he isn't a rare two legged monster, unlike Wesley "thrashing the Scottish" Sneijder.

Ask the Americans how Robben tore apart Team USA's defense about 2 weeks ago.:)

daedalus

03-03-2004, 04:52 AM

This is based on just the one game (Holland-USA) that I saw Robben played so it may be wrong . . .

Robben didn't strike me as the prototypical wide player who'll be raining down crosses from the left wing. He seemed more like the type that cuts inside and attacks the defenses directly. Sort of like how Pires and Ljungberg tend to. He did seem like he'd be able to play behind the striker, if he can get used to having less space to deal with.

And he, uhhh, really hurted Hejduk's feeling in that game. Dude made him looked BAD.

As a fan of the game in general, I'm kind of sad he's going to Chelsea instead of Manchester United. He'd be stuck behind too many players instead of getting to develop. Though, as an Arsenal fan, I'm happy he went to Chelsea instead. He'll be stuck behind too many players and won't hurt us as much as he would at Manchester United. The very idea of Cristiano Ronaldo and Arjen Robben on opposing flank is less than pleasant. The other cool part about him going to Chelsea instead is just the fact that he won't be going to Manchester United. I thought the fact that they had him touring around Old Trafford before everything was settled was rather shady.

I'm now waiting for the next round of Manchester United fans complaining about the "big money team" coming in and stealing players. It makes me giggle in the same way that a baseball team with 120M payroll complain about a "big payroll team" does.

daedalus

03-03-2004, 05:02 AM

MIJB#19

03-03-2004, 05:25 AM

There's an article on Soccernet about PSV developing a working relationship with Chelsea [ here (http://soccernet.espn.go.com/feature?id=293034&cc=5901) ]. It kinda saddened me to see a club like PSV becoming a developmental club for another but, as long as it keeps them afloat, it's a good thing.

I know Arsenal had been working on a similar relationship with Willem II for awhile now. Hopefully, that gets settled soon. It'd be nice to have a place for some of the kids to be able to get some first team experience.Yeah, I heard about a sort of working relationship between Chelsea and PSV, yet I wonder how long it will last.

Ajax used to have schools in Africa and bascially ignores them now.
Feyenoord did the same and ignores them too. Feyenoord also addopted Rotterdam's third team, Excelsior, and now that team looks like a Feyenoord clone with fans complaining about their own identity.
Barcelona once started a project with Sparta (Rotterdam) and that never got off the ground.

PSV was in financial trouble as the club has always lived on the sale of top players to top teams in England, Spain and Italy, which have been not going on recently with Kevin Hofland, Mark van Bommel and Mateja Kezman not getting sold over injuries and the market dropping really fast.
PSV is glad to get that much money for Robben in today's market. Qustion now is, who will they get as replacement, the left wing is open for grabs now...

ManU has been the big ass in the whole situation, making a 20-year old feel wanted, with a tour and all, arranged behind the backs of PSV's president and management, then tell him he's not who they want. I dunno how big the "You don't want me? I'll beat you!" sentiments are, but I hope they are in place.
On the other hand, Chelsea is the only club in the world still paying money of the years 1999-2001, makes it PSV easy to get cash and waive ManU aside.
Rumors are Chelsea and PSV were secretly talking during the secret visit of Robben to ManU, making it a really delicate transfer...

Now, I hope Robben get's back in form and start scoring or making assists again, I want to win this game in the Rotterdam Daily (translated title) were Robben is a key player on my top100 ranked team.

MIJB#19

03-03-2004, 05:28 AM

Robben didn't strike me as the prototypical wide player who'll be raining down crosses from the left wing. He seemed more like the type that cuts inside and attacks the defenses directly. Sort of like how Pires and Ljungberg tend to. He did seem like he'd be able to play behind the striker, if he can get used to having less space to deal with.

And he, uhhh, really hurted Hejduk's feeling in that game. Dude made him looked BAD.I think that depends more on the way the defense plays. Robben can be a prototypical Dutch school winger, but he could turn and go for the shot himself at times. Makes it harder for the defense to anticipate on his next moves.

Katon

03-03-2004, 10:17 AM

As a fan of the game in general, I'm kind of sad he's going to Chelsea instead of Manchester United. He'd be stuck behind too many players instead of getting to develop. Though, as an Arsenal fan, I'm happy he went to Chelsea instead. He'll be stuck behind too many players and won't hurt us as much as he would at Manchester United. The very idea of Cristiano Ronaldo and Arjen Robben on opposing flank is less than pleasant.

Too many players? Did Chelsea sign someone I don't know about? The only winger we have who has any argument for playing ahead of Robben is Duff, and considering Duff's fragility and Ranieri's willingness to play wingers on their weaker flank I would say that Duff will actually be less of an impediment to Robben than Ryan Giggs would have been at Man U.

daedalus

03-03-2004, 01:46 PM

Yeah, I heard about a sort of working relationship between Chelsea and PSV, yet I wonder how long it will last.I think it might actually be a fairly long lasting and worthwhile relationship for both teams. Chelsea has a lot of depth, a lot of money and are usually buying. There'll always be target who doesn't have their work permit. The Dutch teams seem to usually do a good job developing players. Looks like a good job pair.ManU has been the big ass in the whole situation, making a 20-year old feel wanted, with a tour and all, arranged behind the backs of PSV's president and management, then tell him he's not who they want. I dunno how big the "You don't want me? I'll beat you!" sentiments are, but I hope they are in place.
On the other hand, Chelsea is the only club in the world still paying money of the years 1999-2001, makes it PSV easy to get cash and waive ManU aside.
Rumors are Chelsea and PSV were secretly talking during the secret visit of Robben to ManU, making it a really delicate transfer...I think they still wanted him. But I think, based on Harry van Raay's comment, it's possible that United was hoping that they had unsettled Robben enough and that PSV was in a bad enough financial state that they could lowball PSV and get away with it. Obviously Van Raay is a biased party but his comment suggested that, after all the initial discussions, the actual offer was less than they had agreed on.