France Bans the Term 'E-Mail'

[SplitPersonality1]

And the French wonder why so many people like to bash them. :rolleyes:


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030718/ap_on_fe_st/france_out_with__e_mail__1


PARIS - Goodbye "e-mail", the French government says, and hello "courriel" — the term that linguistically sensitive France is now using to refer to electronic mail in official documents.



The Culture Ministry has announced a ban on the use of "e-mail" in all government ministries, documents, publications or Web sites, the latest step to stem an incursion of English words into the French lexicon.


The ministry's General Commission on Terminology and Neology insists Internet surfers in France are broadly using the term "courrier electronique" (electronic mail) instead of e-mail — a claim some industry experts dispute. "Courriel" is a fusion of the two words.


"Evocative, with a very French sound, the word 'courriel' is broadly used in the press and competes advantageously with the borrowed 'mail' in English," the commission has ruled.


The move to ban "e-mail" was announced last week after the decision was published in the official government register on June 20. Courriel is a term that has often been used in French-speaking Quebec, the commission said.


The 7-year-old commission has links to the Academie Francaise, the prestigious institution that has been one of the top opponents of allowing English terms to seep into French.


Some Internet industry experts say the decision is artificial and doesn't reflect reality.


"The word 'courriel' is not at all actively used," Marie-Christine Levet, president of French Internet service provider Club Internet, said Friday. "E-mail has sunk in to our values."


She said Club Internet wasn't changing the words it uses.


"Protecting the language is normal, but e-mail's so assimilated now that no one thinks of it as American," she said. "Courriel would just be a new word to launch."

[Dutch]

Oh brother, that's it! No more "croissants" for me. From now on I'm eating "Gay little half moons" with my coffee!

[Anrhydeddu]

You know, a good portion of the English language comes from the French language, esp. after the Norman invasion and settlement in the 11th century. In fact, the word "mail" derives from Germanic origins and the Middle English word "male" comes from Old French.

I would say the French are being their usual culturally insensitive and intolerant dicks.

[The Afoci]

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
You know, a good portion of the English language comes from the French language, esp. after the Norman invasion and settlement in the 11th century. In fact, the word "mail" derives from Germanic origins and the Middle English word "male" comes from Old French.


edit, nevermind I am an idiot

[The Afoci]

Dola, couldn't remember the guy from cheers who was the mailman who had all the weird facts. I said NORM!!!! Realized I was a fool and edited it.

Going back to the hole now, thanks.

[mckerney]

I think Clifford Clavin would be the name you were looking for.


I watch too much tv :(

[DeToxRox]

Do the French fight spam mail?

[Kodos]

Now I wish I'd taken German instead of French back in the day.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
I would say the French are being their usual culturally insensitive and intolerant dicks.

As if this assertion never applies to Americans. :rolleyes:

[Anrhydeddu]

Yes, but we admit that we are at time, they do not. Besides, I would put up America's cultural diversity against the France's, anytime.

[BreizhManu]

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
Yes, but we admit that we are at time, they do not.

Yeah sure, you're the only ones to do it, we never admit anything...

BTW before courriel we were supposed to use mel, everybody uses mail anyway

[Subby]

I think this is a great idea. I don't see what the big deal is.

French is a melodious language - listening to a beautiful woman speak French is one of life's little pleasures. I don't want to hear her break out "cheeseburger" and "e-mail" in mid-sentence.

Sometimes I wish the U.S. cared more about the English language...

[andy m]

how dare the french have their own language! how dare they do something that bucks the trend of homogenisation, where everyone and everything and everyplace is the exact same facsimile! the french must be stopped from their outrageous attempts to do such things as be themselves!

i was in france 2 weeks ago, and have been several times before. great country, great people. the most recent time i was there - one guy in lyon let me and 4 friends sleep on the floor of his flat and he had never met a single one of until a couple of hours earlier. i think people have a terribly media-led view of this nation. because i simply do not understand why france gets such a bad rap, as i mentioned earlier in this paragraph - the people i have met from france are grade A good folks. i guess a bit of bad press is enough to taint a whole nation eh.

if you have been to france and not enjoyed it, and found the majority of people who live there to be arseholes, then fair enough. but my experience does tally with this. and if you haven't been to france, then you really don't know what you're talking about.

[Subby]

I heart you, andy.

And not because I want to own all your fake baseball players, either.

[Kodos]

we must offer every child in america 3 nuclear missiles

Because you never come off as anti-American, eh?

Edit: What a crappy 7,000th post that was...

[Killebrew]

Originally posted by andy m
how dare the french have their own language! how dare they do something that bucks the trend of homogenisation, where everyone and everything and everyplace is the exact same facsimile! the french must be stopped from their outrageous attempts to do such things as be themselves!

i was in france 2 weeks ago, and have been several times before. great country, great people. the most recent time i was there - one guy in lyon let me and 4 friends sleep on the floor of his flat and he had never met a single one of until a couple of hours earlier. i think people have a terribly media-led view of this nation. because i simply do not understand why france gets such a bad rap, as i mentioned earlier in this paragraph - the people i have met from france are grade A good folks. i guess a bit of bad press is enough to taint a whole nation eh.

if you have been to france and not enjoyed it, and found the majority of people who live there to be arseholes, then fair enough. but my experience does tally with this. and if you haven't been to france, then you really don't know what you're talking about.
I could not agree more. If the French want their own term for e-mail why not try "Liberty Mail", it makes about as much sense. Dumbasses. That said, I do sympathize with cultures that are being slowly bulldozed by the english of corporate America. That being said, it also serves them right.

On a related note, did you know there was no French word for "elite"?

[CAsterling]

Originally posted by andy m
if you have been to france and not enjoyed it, and found the majority of people who live there to be arseholes, then fair enough.

That would be me....great country, just wish the people were more friendly.....especially the Parisians.......there again I only met a small subset, kind of like if you go to England and meet rude Londoners, it sours your whole view of the nation.

[Easy Mac]

Damn those French, changing the name for e-mail. Next thing you know, American politicians will change the name of French fries:rolleyes:

[EagleFan]

Funny how those complaining about the Freedom fries seem to have no problem with this. Damn those double standards.

[JAG]

My fiancee (heh, good word for this thread) worked in France for seven months. She was mistaken for an African and looked down upon because of that, one guy even spit on her.

I'm sure there are places in the US where you'd be poorly treated as a foreigner as well (observe the guy who drove his truck into a mosque in Florida), so take this as it is...one person having a bad experience.

[JAG]

Dola,

Anyone in the US gov know if they're still called Freedom fries and Freedom toast?

[Easy Mac]

I have no problem changing a foreign word into something thats fits easier into your language (Note how US words taken from Spanish are missing rolling R's). Its another thing to try and delete a word from your own language that you created.

I'd say its a completely different type of situation.

[Anrhydeddu]

Originally posted by EagleFan
Funny how those complaining about the Freedom fries seem to have no problem with this. Damn those double standards.

Big difference. Freedom Fries was a media/publicity-inspired nonsense, there were no congressional laws passed.

I personally think France is beautiful country with great food, but their arrogant, self-centered government and political policies do strike a bad chord.

[EagleFan]

In the US tried to do something to 'preserve it's culture', it would get slammed for racism or whatever the liberals would call it. But it's okay if another country does it?

[Easy Mac]

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
I personally think France is beautiful country with great food, but their arrogant, self-centered government and political policies do strike a bad chord. [/B]

Thats odd, because I'd wager they think the same about us.

[EagleFan]

I could see the complaining now if the situation were reversed and the common name for it was Courriel. If the US came out and said, no-one can use that name, it's called email. The same people on here supporting the French and their right to do it would be slamming the US. Damn those pesky double standards.

[Easy Mac]

Originally posted by EagleFan
In the US tried to do something to 'preserve it's culture', it would get slammed for racism or whatever the liberals would call it. But it's okay if another country does it?

With impeccable logic like that, who can aruge

[Kodos]

Whatever happened to letting a language evolve naturally as the common speakers' everyday usage dictates?

[EagleFan]

Easy, I can break it down to small words if it will help you understand.


Or are we getting a little defensive about those double standards?

[Easy Mac]

And no where do they say the word is banned, thats something the media has created to stir up more anti-French sentiment. They want to official word to use for office correspondence, good for them.

[Anrhydeddu]

Originally posted by Easy Mac
Thats odd, because I'd wager they think the same about us.

Exactly but they don't seem to look in their own mirror as much.

Anyone can find recent US/France immigration statistics?

[FrogMan]

Originally posted by Easy Mac
And no where do they say the word is banned, thats something the media has created to stir up more anti-French sentiment. They want to official word to use for office correspondence, good for them.

I won't get all political here, and I could care less about French, but let me tell you I don't understand what the fuss is about.

I completely agree with Easy Mac on this. I live in my life with the French language all day long. When I go buy milk in Quebec, I don't ask for milk at the grocery, I ask for some "lait". "Lait" is the french word for "milk" why can't "courriel", which is the contraction of "courrier électronique", be the French word for "e-mail" which is the contraction of two English words??? End of discussion. No reason to make a big deal out of it...

FM

[Easy Mac]

Sure Eagle Fan, break it down into small words.

Lets be just like the French.

I don't like the word African American, lets call them niggers.

Lets bring back slavery.

Thats what your trying to equate this to. I'm just trying to preserve the culture man.

[Easy Mac]

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
Exactly but they don't seem to look in their own mirror as much.


With all due respect I think thats where you are wrong. Your saying they're arrogant, and yet look at your own statement. Thats speaks of nothing but arrogance. You say we know we're arrogant, then why don't we change if we can see that? Yet we expect them to change? It just doesn't make sense.

[Anrhydeddu]

Frog, I think one of the points is that e-mail (electronic mail) are two words of diverse origins. Electronic is a technical word came up about 100 years while mail comes from Old European roots. One of the original concepts of email came from Europe (I forgot the acronym of that organization). The point is that language should evolve, as it has been in France and Europe and certainly in the US from the democracy of the people instead of some government edicts. If the users of email in France commonly refers to it as email, then the government should not be involved to change it.

[EagleFan]

Not making a big deal out of it, just pointing out the double standards that exist with some members of the board. I could care less what they call it. I just wanted it pointed out that if the situation were reversed, there would be a cry of foul.

For the record, I thought the freedom fries thing was a waste of tax payer money, but it was no big deal (though some in this forum acted like it was...double standard). That situation cannot compare, especially since it wasn't an edict for all Americans for call them freedom fries.

[FrogMan]

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
Frog, I think one of the points is that e-mail (electronic mail) are two words of diverse origins. Electronic is a technical word came up about 100 years while mail comes from Old European roots. One of the original concepts of email came from Europe (I forgot the acronym of that organization). The point is that language should evolve, as it has been in France and Europe and certainly in the US from the democracy of the people instead of some government edicts. If the users of email in France commonly refers to it as email, then the government should not be involved to change it.

Okay, I see that the problem is more in the fact that the gov got involved more than on the words themselves, right? If so, I agree gov shouldn't force people to use certain words instead of others, but let me tell you that here in Quebec, for the French speaking people (especially people new to this internet thingy ;) ), "courriel" is more common than "e-mail". I'm not the norm, as I've been on the net for about 10 years, so email is easier for me, but for my dad for example, "courriel" is what he'll say to me when he asks me if I got his email...

Just sharing a out-of-States point of vue :)

FM

[Ajaxab]

I don't know why the French are getting a bad rap for trying to root out linguistic borrowing. The Germans have been doing it for years now.

[EagleFan]

Originally posted by Easy Mac
I don't like the word African American, lets call them niggers.


I was thinking more on the lines of Americans, since that is what we are all.

Next!!!!

[Easy Mac]

Originally posted by EagleFan
Not making a big deal out of it, just pointing out the double standards that exist with some members of the board. I could care less what they call it. I just wanted it pointed out that if the situation were reversed, there would be a cry of foul.

For the record, I thought the freedom fries thing was a waste of tax payer money, but it was no big deal (though some in this forum acted like it was...double standard). That situation cannot compare, especially since it wasn't an edict for all Americans for call them freedom fries.

cool cool, no prob. I think they are both stupid as well. Liguistically speaking, I feel the French make more sense, but they're still dumb. Carry on.

[FrogMan]

gotta add that I personally hate it when gov tells us what to do, for example, did you know that French radio station in Quebec HAVE TO play a 65% of their songs in French? This is suppose to preserve our French Culture, yeah right...

FM

edit: change "gotta ask" for "gotta add", sorry the French part of my the brain farted ;)

[Subby]

Originally posted by EagleFan
For the record, I thought the freedom fries thing was a waste of tax payer money, but it was no big deal (though some in this forum acted like it was...double standard). That situation cannot compare, especially since it wasn't an edict for all Americans for call them freedom fries. It was a big deal to me because it made our government, and by extension, Americans, look like small-minded buffoons...

And yes, I do care (to a degree) how we are viewed by the world <i>community</i>...

[Anrhydeddu]

Easy Mac, I think you are getting defensive from miscommunications. America prides itself on its diversity. We have peoples from nearly every single nation coming here throughout our history to become American citizens. Our language, coming from the natural hodgepodge of English, has words from all of the world's language groups. France, likewise, has a history of immigration from many countries and their language is not as monolithic as they might think (being of Romance origins). If they pride themselves on being liberal and open-minded, such government edicts contradicts that, imo. I see there is nothing wrong with the term email, it's just one of those recent (since 1979) term that has caught on. To me (and perhaps to most of the citizens of France) it is not a big issue but to certain French govt. officials, it seems to be.

[EagleFan]

Isn't there some sort of Canadian law as well about a certain percentage of songs having to be from Canadian artists?

Aimed at FM's statement. Not related to this in any way. Just wondering how those two laws interact.

[FrogMan]

Originally posted by EagleFan
Isn't there some sort of Canadian law as well about a certain percentage of songs having to be from Canadian artists?

I think so, but the radio station I listen to (French license, but mostly playing English alternative rock) is not as vocal about it, as it is easier to find good English Canadian rock band to play (NickelBack, Sum41, Rush, etc) than French Canadian bands/artists...

FM

[FrogMan]

Originally posted by EagleFan
Aimed at FM's statement. Not related to this in any way. Just wondering how those two laws interact.

Very easily, a French Canadian artist/band counts in the French and Canadian percentage played. An English Canadian artist only goes toward their percentage of Canadian content...

FM

[Anrhydeddu]

Originally posted by Subby
It was a big deal to me because it made our government, and by extension, Americans, look like small-minded buffoons...

And yes, I do care (to a degree) how we are viewed by the world <i>community</i>...

I agree (since the term French Fries is not of French origin). If replacing or rooting out words makes us small-minded buffoons, what do you call other countries doing the same thing?

[EagleFan]

Shouldn't our attention be focussed on detroying that David Hasselhoff video from the other thread? That is the true crime.

[Subby]

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
I agree (since the term French Fries is not of French origin). If replacing or rooting out words makes us small-minded buffoons, what do you call other countries doing the same thing? I would argue that our actions were born more of knee-jerk, jingoistic sentiments than actual interest in preserving culture.

[EagleFan]

Originally posted by Subby
I would argue that our actions were born more of knee-jerk, jingoistic sentiments than actual interest in preserving culture.

duh!!! :D

[FrogMan]

I have never heard about a freedom fries vs french fries debate before, but maybe you should know that in French (at least in Quebec) we translate "French fries" to simply "frites". There's no "French" or even "Français(es) " in there anywhere... :)

FM

[EagleFan]

All this french fry talk has me hungry now.

Courriel me if you know of a good place to pick up some frites. :D

[Easy Mac]

Fuck that, I need some lait for my arroz (spanish sp?/word usage) krispies.

[FrogMan]

Dude, I know a great place where you can get some absufreakinglutely great poutine :D

Great stuff, not from France at all, all Quebec :D

FM

[Anrhydeddu]

Frog, "French" Fries comes from the name of the cook in Pittsburgh (I think). Nothing Francais about them.

I do wonder, though, when do we get to preserve our culture since that seems to be a noble thing to do? Would we even know what we should preserve given our diversity?

[FrogMan]

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
Frog, "French" Fries comes from the name of the cook in Pittsburgh (I think). Nothing Francais about them.


Even though I didn't know why French was in there, I had kind of picked up that it wasn't because of the Francais. I just wanted to point out that the cook's name (now that you tell it's because of a cook) didn't make to Quebec :)

FM

[Craptacular]

I had french fries last night for the first time in over a month (damn diet). I had forgotten how tasty they were. :(

[daedalus]

I still don't understand the problem with this. Two things, really:

1) The French have always been anal-retentive about their language and how it evolves. I think that rocks and I dig the French language. Just the same way that I dig the fact that English (particularly, American English) is constantly evolving. I don't see why they should have to do the same thing. What's important to one may not be to the other.

2) If I read that correctly, the deal is with official documents. Jean Q Frogman can and probably will still use e-mail if that's what they're used to and courriel if that's their glass of cabernet. There are terms that are suppose to be used for official documents in English and it's same deal in Thai (where they're very anal-retentive about official things in the language).

As an aside, the very brief time I spent in Paris was just fine. I wasn't treated any more poorly or any better than I was when I went to Kansas. There were nice folks, there were folks who were brusque.

[Killebrew]

Originally posted by Easy Mac
Thats odd, because I'd wager they think the same about us.
Touche:)

[Fritz]

why is this an issue for anyone but the French?