GroupThink 3 - Kitty Hawk, 2022

[QuikSand]

GroupThink 3 – Kitty Hawk Flyers

We’re up to the year 2022, our third with this franchise. We cleaned house in 2020 (http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13066), and posted the franchise’s first winning season in five seasons. Last year, in 2021 (http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14006), we made it all the way into the league championship game, despite serious injuries (including once again a QB injury for the playoffs).

If you are inclined to follow along, you may download the files below. Even without the files, all are welcome to join in the discussions and voice your thoughts or support.


Here are the house rules that we have been following:

PLAYER ACQUISITIONS
-Players other than undrafted rookies may only be acquired during the draft and the 20-stage FA process
-No initiating trades, other than tades during the draft involving current year's picks only
-Team may respond to trade offers that pass the standard fairness test (alter and confirm)
-Team may not accept a first round draft pick in trade for a reserve player
-Every FA offer to a player requesting any bonus (not including current team members) must include a signing bonus at least as large as the highest year's salary
-Team may make unlimited FA offers before the first week of free agency, and then no more than two more offers before the end of the FA process

ROSTER MANAGEMENT
-Team may not renegotiate or extend any player contracts
-Team may not enter the regular season with a chemistry conflict
-All positional team leaders must be starters for the team
-All positional team leaders must receive at least a qualifying offer from the team for a new contract

FINANCES
-Ticket prices for each level must remain below the average of two closest teams, geographically
-If team runs an operating deficit, the following year the team must remain 10% under the salary cap
-The preceding effect is cumulative - two running annual deficits require staying 20% below cap, etc.
-Cannot have both scout and coach in the top ten salaries of the league

ACCOUNTABILITY
-A coach with a losing record the season his contract expires can not be rehired
-Last place in the division gets the coach fired (unless it is his first year with the team)
-Last place in the conference gets the "starting" QB sacked (unless he is in his first 3 seasons)
-Last place in the league gets the coach, starting QB, and scout canned.



As we head into the 2022 season, the biggest question is not with our players, but rather with our balance sheet. If we lost operating revenue in 2021 (which we expect), we will be under a 20% salary cap limit this year, which means that we’ll have a serious amount of rebuilding. The decisions we can make ahead largely hinge on the bottom line.

[QuikSand]

2022 offseason

We have had two retirements from the team this offseason – both of which will have a meaningful effect on the season ahead. C R.J. Winters was the foundation player for our offensive line, and the centerpiece of our inside running game. He hangs up the cleats after working out well for us for many, many years.

DE Cedric Martin was our best pass rusher, and the leader of the defensive front. He had real health problems, and his availability was erratic – but there was no questioning his effectiveness when he played. He, too, will be missed.


But, the biggest issue of all is on the team’s balance sheet. With trepidation, we have a look at the books… which reveal a $15.5m operating profit for the 2021 season. By dropping our player bonus spending, we made up a huge financial gap, and got into the black for this season. That will be a huge relief for the player side of the equation – and might open up some options that we had considered completely off the table for us. Great news!


And so, with all that, here is the roster situation—sorted by cap number, for our management convenience:


Front Office Football: The Fourth Edition
Kitty Hawk Flyers Roster, Contract View

Player # Pos OnTm EndCnt Exp Cap Cost Save if Rlse
Andrews, Willie 65 LT 2018 2023 13 $16,300,000 $10,000,000
Daniels, Russell 96 MLB 2020 2023 8 $12,750,000 $10,000,000
Finley, Daniel 20 RB 2018 2023 5 $9,760,000 $5,500,000
Song, Peter 84 FL 2019 2024 4 $9,300,000 $5,550,000
Bordano, Edgar 29 RCB 2018 2022 5 $6,000,000 $5,000,000
Littlejohn, Jack 77 RDT 2019 2023 4 $4,920,000 $3,330,000
Henderson, Joseph 42 LCB 2020 2022 7 $4,810,000 $3,710,000
Hawkins, Ricky 33 SS 2020 2022 12 $4,000,000 $3,000,000
Wylie, Larry 86 TE 2021 2025 2 $3,720,000 $2,080,000
Sanderson, Robert 83 FL 2020 2023 3 $3,150,000 $2,040,000
Peters, Ellis 70 LDT 2020 2022 9 $2,800,000 $2,100,000
Rubble, Earnest 39 FB 2020 2023 3 $2,400,000 $1,500,000
Carr, Kenneth 81 FL 2020 2022 10 $2,400,000 $1,800,000
Middleton, Buddy 98 WLB 2021 2024 2 $2,320,000 $1,420,000
Reynolds, Louie 30 FS 2018 2022 13 $2,260,000 $1,900,000
Duran, Luther 28 LCB 2020 2023 3 $1,790,000 $1,200,000
Boyd, Howie 94 SLB 2021 2024 2 $1,570,000 $920,000
Plank, Oscar 56 MLB 2021 2022 7 $1,450,000 $1,450,000
Perry, Shane 35 RCB 2021 2022 7 $1,400,000 $1,400,000
McNair, Orlando 45 FS 2020 2022 3 $1,390,000 $1,130,000
Tittle, Bennie 13 QB 2020 2022 3 $1,300,000 $1,200,000
Wallace, Irv 71 RG 2021 2022 4 $1,250,000 $1,250,000
Emerson, Geoff 76 RDE 2019 2022 4 $1,220,000 $1,220,000
Arellano, Neil 19 K 2021 2023 2 $1,210,000 $920,000
Strong, Rob 24 RB 2020 2022 3 $1,190,000 $1,130,000
Devitt, Cornell 32 LCB 2021 2023 4 $1,150,000 $1,150,000
Grolsko, Frank 64 RT 2021 2023 2 $1,050,000 $920,000
Harden, R.J. 47 RB 2021 2022 2 $950,000 $890,000
Rapp, Percy 97 SLB 2021 2023 2 $920,000 $920,000
Rivers, Dennis 31 RB 2021 2022 2 $770,000 $770,000
**Hutchins, Chuck 17 QB 2020 UFA 9 $0 $0
Sparks, Heath 18 QB 2020 UFA 8 $0 $0
Crane, Alan 15 QB 2021 ---- 2 $0 $0
Kowalski, Rondell 36 FB 2020 UFA 13 $0 $0
Diana, Julio 80 TE 2019 UFA 14 $0 $0
Wayne, Bernard 82 TE 2020 UFA 5 $0 $0
Matthews, Julio 88 FL 2020 UFA 5 $0 $0
Johns, Timothy 61 LT 2020 UFA 8 $0 $0
Hausermann, Dave 72 LG 2020 UFA 7 $0 $0
Cicci, Carlton 60 C 2020 ---- 3 $0 $0
Peterson, Rufus 68 RG 2019 ---- 4 $0 $0
Trask, Marco 63 RG 2021 ---- 2 $0 $0
Chanoine, Ed 62 RT 2021 ---- 2 $0 $0
Saldana, Van 14 P 2021 ---- 2 $0 $0
Cochrane, Edward 92 LDT 2021 ---- 2 $0 $0
Preston, Mario 95 LDT 2021 ---- 2 $0 $0
Floyd, J.B. 79 RDE 2021 ---- 2 $0 $0
Mills, J.J. 50 SLB 2020 UFA 10 $0 $0
Shon, Desmond 52 MLB 2020 UFA 10 $0 $0
Mitchell, Otis 55 WLB 2021 ---- 2 $0 $0
Bradley, Richard 40 SS 2021 ---- 2 $0 $0

Players Under Contract: 30

Salary Cap: $179,300,000
Cap Room: $60,260,000
Maximum for New Player: $52,000,000
Cap Room Lost (to old contracts): $13,540,000

Cap Room Lost Next Year (to old contracts): $0
Cap Room Required Next Year: $79,260,000



And, for those who are following the “team chemistry” issues closely (as we are obliged to do under our rules), here is a snapshot of that stuff:


Player # Pos Playing Time Sign Chemistry
Kowalski, Rondell 36 FB Content Aquarius Backfield Leader
Diana, Julio 80 TE Content Taurus Receivers Leader
Johns, Timothy 61 LT Content Aquarius Offensive Line Lead
Littlejohn, Jack 77 RDT Content Leo Defensive Front Lea
Hawkins, Ricky 33 SS Content Cancer Secondary Leader
**Hutchins, Chuck 17 QB Content Capricorn 2 Affinities with l
Crane, Alan 15 QB Content Pisces 1 Affinity with lea
Preston, Mario 95 LDT Content Capricorn Mild Conflict
Bordano, Edgar 29 RCB Content Taurus Strong Affinity
Grolsko, Frank 64 RT Content Libra Strong Affinity
Andrews, Willie 65 LT Content Capricorn Affinity
Finley, Daniel 20 RB Content Libra Affinity
Matthews, Julio 88 FL Content Pisces Affinity
McNair, Orlando 45 FS Content Pisces Affinity
Rubble, Earnest 39 FB Content Libra Affinity
Cicci, Carlton 60 C Content Libra Affinity
Carr, Kenneth 81 FL Content Pisces Mild Affinity
Boyd, Howie 94 SLB Content Virgo Mild Affinity


The big issue here (which we did see coming) is that T Timothy Johns, as our offensive line leader, must receive a qualifying contract offer from us. In all likelihood, that means a substantial increase in salary for him. Actually, it looks like the OL will be an area of major decision-making this season, as we have a lot of players without contracts there (and only three there with contracts).

TE Diana and FB Kowalski are also due new contracts - we'll see what happens there, as both are very marginal players (I doubt we'll have competition).

Lots to do ahead…

[QuikSand]

File #1 of 2

[QuikSand]

File #2 of 2

[Buzzbee]

QS - Last "year" I attached two draft files. I think one was a TCY file from 2021 and the other from 2022. I wasn't sure which would correlate to our FOF4 dynasty. Do you recall which file you used? If you used the 2021, then we should be able to use the 2022 file. If you used the second of the two, let me know and I will sim a year and provide a draft file for our use.

Congrats Flyers on a great year. While it is a bitter pill to make it to the Super Bowl and not win, I think most of us are very pleased with making it there at all.

Great news on the balance sheet!! I was prepared to say bye to most of our favorite players. Maybe we'll be able to keep the bulk of the team intact.

[Fritz]

rules proposal

team leaders must play if probable or better
team leaders must be slotted for at least "3" playtime.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally posted by Fritz
rules proposal

team leaders must play if probable or better
team leaders must be slotted for at least "3" playtime.

Sounds like a good set of rules. The only change that I would make is the situation where we have a team leader who is actually a really good player and who is probable and who we would like to rest in a "meaningless" game (such as we had at the end of last season).

In other words, as in all of our rules, I would like the ability to bend them when it is realistic and in the spirit of the game.

[albionmoonlight]

Looking at last season, I see some really positive things on which to build.

We gave the ball away less than any other team.

We took it away more than every team but one.

We were the third highest scoring team in the league.

We were the second best defense (in terms of points allowed) in the league.

[albionmoonlight]

It is also cool that Harden and Rubble both got end of season awards despite the fact that one of them started one game and the other started 6 games. Good use of the backups by Fritz.

Also--a DC's best friend is a good running game. I am happy to see so many of our O-linemen in the pro-bowl.

[Buzzbee]

We'll need to hire a scout this year as Roosevelt Doyle is out of contract. Doyle is a very good scout, but I think may be too pricey for us. Some good alternatives might be Jeffery McCarthy or Donovan Ursino.

My thoughts regarding scouts:
Whether we realize it or not, we depend heavily on our scout. When deciding who to start, we look at our team through his eyes. When deciding who to draft, we look at the draftees through his eyes. When signing free agents, we look at the available players through his eyes. When evaluating our opposition, we look at the other teams strengths and weaknesses through his eyes.

As a result, I generally like to get a darn good scout. However, with our financial restraints, I don't think that is the best alternative. It would be great to get Doyle back, but I think he would absolutely submarine our balance sheet. Therefore, with reluctance I support either of the two cheaper alternatives with a preference for Ursino.

Jeffery McCarthy - $430,000 * 45 = $19,350,000 in scouting costs
Donovan Ursino - $520,000 * 45 = $23,400,000 in scouting costs
Roosevelt Doyle - $820,000 * 45 = $36,900,00 in scouting costs

[Buzzbee]

As a refresher

Originally posted by QuikSand

The four affinity groups are:
Aries, Gemini, Scorpio
Sagittarius, Leo, Virgo
Pisces, Taurus, Cancer
Aquarius, Libra, Capricorn

And the six pairs of opposed signs are:
Aries - Aquarius
Taurus - Libra
Gemini - Virgo
Scorpio - Pisces
Capricorn - Leo
Cancer - Sagittarius


And our CURRENT position leaders are:


FB - Kowalski - Aquarius - Backfield Leader
TE - Diana - Taurus - Receivers Leader
LT - Johns - Aquarius - Offensive Line Leader
LDE - Littlejohn - Leo - Defensive Front Leader
SS - Hawkins - Cancer - Secondary Leader


DE Martin was a Taurus, in case we want to consider finding a replacement for him other than Littlejohn. Also, scrub DT Mario Preston has a little problem with Littlejohn being named Defensive Front leader. If Littlejohn stays as D Line leader, Preston will have to go (no great loss).

[QuikSand]

Since this year is a "free spending" year, perhaps it would make sense for us to be a little reckless with our immediate funds... sine it's pretty likely that we will have to pay out plenty of bonuses this year, and we're pretty likely to run a loss for the year anyway... why not spend it while we've got it now, and then cut back for next year when we have no choice?

Just a thought... after getting to but losing the Superbowl, it would be understandable to have a "go for it" mentality.

[QuikSand]

Welcome, friends to the meaningful stages of the offseason.

We have brought aboard a new director of scouting, and welcome Donovan Ursino to our ranks. I don't find any particular weaknesses in his acumen - he is rated "good" or better with every position group. He's our kind of guy (as in, he is the cheapest working scout in the league).

We have advanced to the free agent stages of the game, where we can start assessing the moves that we seek to make in the coming season. Picking at #31 in the draft (of course) we shouldn't expect to find many immediate impact players that way - so we probably need to fill holes by way of free agenst wherever possible.

A file update will follow this message.

[QuikSand]

File #1 of 2

[QuikSand]

File #2 of 2

[QuikSand]

Here is a quick synopsis of our players currently without contracts, and the initial demands that they have to re-sign. (Shown is the 2002 contract amount and the duration of the requested deal)


Player # Pos OnTm EndCnt Exp 2022 Salary, Duration
Diana, Julio 80 TE 2019 UFA 14 $2.7m, 2yrs
Kowalski, Rondell 36 FB 2020 UFA 13 $1.9m, 2yrs
Shon, Desmond 52 MLB 2020 UFA 10 $3.7m, 1yr
Mills, J.J. 50 SLB 2020 UFA 10 $3.5m, 2yrs
**Hutchins, Chuck 17 QB 2020 UFA 9 $4.1m, 2yrs
Sparks, Heath 18 QB 2020 UFA 8 $4.3m, 3yrs
Johns, Timothy 61 LT 2020 UFA 8 $7.9m, 4yrs
Hausermann, Dave 72 LG 2020 UFA 7 $2.2m, 2yrs
Wayne, Bernard 82 TE 2020 UFA 5 $1.3m, 1yr
Matthews, Julio 88 FL 2020 UFA 5 $4.9m, 2yrs
Peterson, Rufus 68 RG 2019 ---- 4 $2.3m, 2yrs
Cicci, Carlton 60 C 2020 ---- 3 $960K, 1yr
Mitchell, Otis 55 WLB 2021 ---- 2 $770K, 1yr
Bradley, Richard 40 SS 2021 ---- 2 $770K, 2yrs
Floyd, J.B. 79 RDE 2021 ---- 2 $1.2m, 1yr
Saldana, Van 14 P 2021 ---- 2 $770K, 3yrs
Cochrane, Edward 92 LDT 2021 ---- 2 $770K, 1yr
Chanoine, Ed 62 RT 2021 ---- 2 $770K, 1yr
Trask, Marco 63 RG 2021 ---- 2 $770K, 1yr
Preston, Mario 95 LDT 2021 ---- 2 $1.7m, 2yrs
Crane, Alan 15 QB 2021 ---- 2 $770K, 1yr


You will quickly note that our “position leaders” generally have a pretty high view of themselves, and the three guys there are seeking a collective $12.5m this year, with Johns’ contract escalating nicely into the out years. This is probably the starting point for our considerations – we are obliged to submit a qualifying offer to each of these guys, and I have to think we’ll end up getting all three.

[cuervo72]

Originally posted by QuikSand

You will quickly note that our “position leaders” generally have a pretty high view of themselves, and the three guys there are seeking a collective $12.5m this year, with Johns’ contract escalating nicely into the out years. This is probably the starting point for our considerations – we are obliged to submit a qualifying offer to each of these guys, and I have to think we’ll end up getting all three.

I don't think it helps that Diana has a loyalty of 100, and wants a winner of 81. Hmm, Johns' loyalty is pretty high too.

[Fritz]

How can we not bring Sparks back at that salary?
of the other non-leaderhsip manadated players, I would like to see Peterson and Hausermann return. I think they can be upgraded in FA or the draft, but they will do.

[albionmoonlight]

Mills and Shon are both getting a little long in the tooth. However, after losing Martin this offseason, I don't want to completely gut our front seven.

Mills played above his ability last year, and, if I had to choose between the two, I might be inclined to pick him. Shon has done well, however as WLB (though not quite as well as I would have liked).

If we were to somehow keep them both, then we are set at starting LB with them on the outside and Daniels in the middle. Perhaps it would make sense to offer to them both. If they both accept for next year, then Shon is gone after this year anyway (when we need the money).

Also (and here I am role-playing as the DC who wants players and damn the costs) WE NEED AT LEAST ONE SERVICEABLE DE.

As far as the secondary goes, I think that they played well last year, and I don't see a need for big upgrades there (from what I remember).

[cuervo72]

Originally posted by Fritz
How can we not bring Sparks back at that salary?
of the other non-leaderhsip manadated players, I would like to see Peterson and Hausermann return. I think they can be upgraded in FA or the draft, but they will do.

Sparks is also idolized by the fans.

Is it against the rules to pick up someone like QB Ethan Francis? 6th year guy, played very little, REAL cheap. Of course, he's dumb too. Or is this guy basically a bust waiting to happen?

[Buzzbee]

Quik - Where are we on ticket prices? Are Norfolk and Ocean City going to show us a little love and jack up the prices? Also, since Quik is in a spending mood, what are peoples thought of upgrading the turf? It is in fair condition now. It might help alleviate injuries if we upgrade it. Don't know how much it will cost, but thought I would throw it out for consideration.

Also, where are we regarding draft files? Are we going to be able to use on of the draft files I posted in last year's thread, or will I need to sim another TCY season and post that file?

I'm curious to find out what the draft class looks like. I'm hoping there is more talent at DE than last year. We could use some D Line depth.

[Buzzbee]

Also, another thing to consider - Diana (14yrs.) and Kowalski (13yrs.) are both nearing retirement. I'm guessing they will retire at the end of the next contract they sign.

I think we need to do some serious succession planning so that we don't end up with a situation like we have on the O Line with Johns. It's not a horrible situation, but it could have been. This also goes with the D Line. With Littlejohn around 77 (I think) we need to be cautious with who we bring in. I suggest going after a young, quality, proven free agent DE with very high leadership. Someone we WANT to be a starter until he retires. Of course they should have the appropriate sign so as to not disrupt the current chemistry.

[Fritz]

QBs (not looking at chem)

Billy Joe Mason - he may the ideal QB for what I want to do.

Ellis Comeaux - A fair fit and affordable

A.J. Freuler - a guy I can work with, but exactly the type the GM is not fond of (INTS). Very affordable.

Ethan Francis - guy to grow with, but he only wants 1 contract year. My suggestion is to bring him in for a look and use him as a back up. If we like where he is ina year we can offer him a multiyear extension to start.

Terry Blair - another high INT type that would otherwise be a fantastic fit. Wanting a two year contract on the cheap this guy would be great fit.

[Fritz]

I give you G Mickey Lester. Affinity, and hyper lopsided to run. At $7,710,000, 3 yrs he is affordable.

[Fritz]

I give you LT David Huntley

At $7,600,000, 3 yrs he is very affordable.

No affinity, but no conflict. I really want this guy.

[Fritz]

C Chuck Drake

Not as good as winters, but he will do as a solid backup and can take over if the time comes after this season. No affinity. $2,700,000, 2 yrs but with no bonus.

How can we say no?

[Fritz]

Our reserve FL Matthews is developing into a nice looking WR for a 7th rounder. I hope we can do as well with his replacement.

[Buzzbee]

Before we go signing anyone, I want a thorough check on their sign and their leadership. Lets continue thinking big picture, for the future, metagame and all those cliched terms.

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by Buzzbee
Quik - Where are we on ticket prices? Are Norfolk and Ocean City going to show us a little love and jack up the prices? Also, since Quik is in a spending mood, what are peoples thought of upgrading the turf? It is in fair condition now. It might help alleviate injuries if we upgrade it. Don't know how much it will cost, but thought I would throw it out for consideration.

Also, where are we regarding draft files? Are we going to be able to use on of the draft files I posted in last year's thread, or will I need to sim another TCY season and post that file?

As I noted above, and you will discover when you have a chance to get the most recent files, we have already moved past these stages. Our ticket prices increased very modestly in keeping with our competitors', and we did not take any action with stadium enhancements.

I have used the second of the TCY draft files, and double-checked to ensure that none of the players looked familiar. I have not yet done any studying of the incoming rookie class, but this is already underway.

Hope that helps.

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by Fritz
I give you LT David Huntley...At $7,600,000, 3 yrs he is very affordable...No affinity, but no conflict. I really want this guy.

Where do we play this guy? We have a stud at LT, our position leader has to start at RT, and a fairly promising youngster as our 3rd tackle. What do we do with a $2+ m investment at this position? Start him at a guard spot?

[dixieflatline]

Quicksand:
You mentioned that the team made $15 million last year and beacause you didn't have too many signing bonuses that helped keep costs down. How mcuh did the playoff games help?

everyone:
Sparks looks pretty reasonably priced to me. He didn't happen to gain back the 2 TE set did he? Wylie got hurt at the end of the year but I think theis guy has star written alll over him. He caught just about everything thrown his way and had a pretty good YPC for a TE as a rookie.

Great job turning around a morbid franchise quickly guys!

[albionmoonlight]

Doing this without the game file in front of me:

Daniels was a first team pro-bowler last year. However, depending on how much he is making--relative to other middle LBs--does it make any sense to release him and use the money to pick up a stud DE (who can be expensive) and a cheaper replacement at MLB?

I like Daniels a lot. He makes 100+ tackles a season, and he stays healthy. An 8 year vet, he also probably has another 3-4 solid years in front of him. I would like to keep him. However, as we are examining our finances, I can't help but notice that the second highest paid player on our team is a MLB.

[cuervo72]

Originally posted by albionmoonlight

Also (and here I am role-playing as the DC who wants players and damn the costs) WE NEED AT LEAST ONE SERVICEABLE DE.


I'd agree that this is a bit of a need. There are a couple of studs in the draft, but I don't think they'd be available at 31st pick (there are 4 top DE's, then a dropoff).

Someone we might want to keep an eye on though is Brian Jefferson, LDE out of Brigham Young. He's a Virgo, so he'd have an affinity with Littlejohn (assuming he's still the leader), and is26/95 for PR technique and 76 for PR strength. Not as good against the run though, and not much endurance. Rated 29/49 overall, so obviously not a first rounder.

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by Fritz
QBs (not looking at chem)

Billy Joe Mason - he may the ideal QB for what I want to do.

Ellis Comeaux - A fair fit and affordable

A.J. Freuler - a guy I can work with, but exactly the type the GM is not fond of (INTS). Very affordable.

Ethan Francis - guy to grow with, but he only wants 1 contract year. My suggestion is to bring him in for a look and use him as a back up. If we like where he is ina year we can offer him a multiyear extension to start.

Terry Blair - another high INT type that would otherwise be a fantastic fit. Wanting a two year contract on the cheap this guy would be great fit.

Let's see here - a few follow-up notes:

-Bidding for Billy Joe Mason starts around $20m a year, with a monster signing bonus. Unliikely we can do that.

-Comeaux can be had for around $3m/yr, and is chemistry-neutral

-Freuler is a conformed pick-thrower with more Int than TD for his career, including 22/29 last year... he'd have an affinity with DE leader Littlejohn

-Francis is young and unproven, might make a solid backup, I agree... probably would take a two year no-bonus offer, very palatable... he'd be chemistr-neutral (same sign as two leaders)

-Blair doesn't have the track record of interception problems that Frauler has, but our scout says he will be careless... wants $3m+... chemistry neutral


Looking around, I don't see anyone who really would help out much as a chemistry influence (Bobby Griffin is best I could fine, but he'd be a very shaky #2)... so my inclination might ne to pursue Heath Sparks for something like $4m/yr to return as our top option, and then to go after Ethan Francis as a decent, developable #2 for as long as deal as we can get with him. If we do that, we probaby don't need to make QB a priority for the draft, though we may need to consider waiving Bennie Tittle for salary reasons (and presumably replacing him with a rookie).

[Buzzbee]

Originally posted by cuervo72
I'd agree that this is a bit of a need. There are a couple of studs in the draft, but I don't think they'd be available at 31st pick (there are 4 top DE's, then a dropoff).

Someone we might want to keep an eye on though is Brian Jefferson, LDE out of Brigham Young. He's a Virgo, so he'd have an affinity with Littlejohn (assuming he's still the leader), and is26/95 for PR technique and 76 for PR strength. Not as good against the run though, and not much endurance. Rated 29/49 overall, so obviously not a first rounder.

I have complete faith in my Assistant Scout. I taught him everything he knows. And as mentioned in last years thread, he works cheap! :D ;)

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by dixieflatline
Quicksand:
You mentioned that the team made $15 million last year and beacause you didn't have too many signing bonuses that helped keep costs down. How mcuh did the playoff games help?


Tough to say... our ticket and suite revenue were up 32% and 41%, respectively, and that accounts for soemthing like $30 million. That certainly helped. That revenue, though came from three sources in theory: (1) improved attendance overall, (2) higher ticket prices, and (3) an extra home playoff game to boost receipts.

Our attendance report shows us down to 53,700 from 55,500 the prior year -- I cannot explain why that would be, other than some respone to ticket price increases overwhelming the presumably higher interest in the team from our successes.

As for the playofff game - we got to host only one game in 2021... and I honestly cannot recall whether we played at home in 2020 (I think we were on the road only). So, that extra game certaibnly played a role... presumably increasing our attendance-related revenue by something like 12-14%.

Bottom line seems to be that we increased ticket prices, managed to hold our attendance per game pretty even, and earned one extra game -- all of which contributed to our bailing out of the red for the year.

[QuikSand]

The free agent market at DE looks pretty shabby, gang. Unless we're willing to lay out really big bucks, I don't see many guys worth the mid-level contracts they arer seeking.

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by Fritz
C Chuck Drake

Not as good as winters, but he will do as a solid backup and can take over if the time comes after this season. No affinity. $2,700,000, 2 yrs but with no bonus.

How can we say no?

I don't think we can - Drake is definitely going to get an offer from us. We start at his asking price of 2yr, $2.7m - good value.

[Buzzbee]

Originally posted by QuikSand
I don't think we can - Drake is definitely going to get an offer from us. We start at his asking price of 2yr, $2.7m - good value.

Just to keep a watch on these things, what is his leadership, and how old/young is he? I would look, but am at work and don't have access to the game. My apologies for having to ask.

[Fritz]

Originally posted by QuikSand
Where do we play this guy? We have a stud at LT, our position leader has to start at RT, and a fairly promising youngster as our 3rd tackle. What do we do with a $2+ m investment at this position? Start him at a guard spot?

What do we do with him? We play him! For now I would set him as the top BU to the T position and drop Johns playtime. We are are at a point where having a quality backup with some years ahead of him is needed at the position. Andrews is getting up there a little and will want 12mil next season. Having an alternative in place would be nice. Plus Huntley can swap in for another line position if needed. Again, I feel he is a good talent at a modest price who can help us for at least 3 seasons.

[albionmoonlight]

What about Finley? He tailed off production wise a bit last year. If we can find another steal in the draft (a'la ROY Harden) to platoon with Harden, is it worth keeping Finley at his salary?

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by Buzzbee
Just to keep a watch on these things, what is his leadership, and how old/young is he? I would look, but am at work and don't have access to the game. My apologies for having to ask.

C Drake is a 5th year player rated 54 in leadership, very little likelihood that he assumes the position leader level.

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by albionmoonlight
What about Finley? He tailed off production wise a bit last year. If we can find another steal in the draft (a'la ROY Harden) to platoon with Harden, is it worth keeping Finley at his salary?

The trouble with Finley is that he is currently receiving the benefit of "overlapping" deals, and so his contract consists of $5.5m in salary this year and next, plus $4.36m in bonus prorated to each season. If we cut him, we clear out $5m in cap space, but that's all-- and we eat the $4.26m this year and next.


I think it's unlikely we'd find a RB who is superior to Finley for the $5.5m in cap space that we'd release -- guys like Wesley Woodard are about as good as we can do there, and are less proven than Finley, I think. I think if we were going to cut Finley, it woudl have to be with an eye on making RB a "cheap" position - and intending to use Harden, Strong, our FB Rubble, and whatever we get from the draft as ous main weapons there.

With RB seeming like a deep position in the TCY drafts, this might be a defensible decision -- but it's tough to deny that Finlay has been there when we've needed him. 31/32 starts, and over 2.500 yards rushing in the two seasons we've been at the helm...plus he is an affinity guy with our position leader, and is a fan favorite. Plenty of reasons to suck it up, and keep paying him.

[cuervo72]

Originally posted by QuikSand
The free agent market at DE looks pretty shabby, gang. Unless we're willing to lay out really big bucks, I don't see many guys worth the mid-level contracts they arer seeking.

What $$ range are we talking? RDE J.C. Sinclair might be ok, he's asking $9,300,000, 2 yrs. 1st round choice in 2017. 11 sacks his first year, demoted in his 2nd, 11.5 his third, injured and/or demoted his 4th. Scouted 47/53 over all. An upgrade over what we have.

LDE Lenny Boykin looks like he would be ok - 75/75 run, 75/75 pass (also $9,300,000, 2 yrs.), but he has NO endurance and is a light hitter. LDE C.J. Benton is even cheaper, but looks to have a history of injuries (but as a Saggittarius would mesh with Littlejohn).

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by Fritz
What do we do with him? We play him! For now I would set him as the top BU to the T position and drop Johns playtime. We are are at a point where having a quality backup with some years ahead of him is needed at the position. Andrews is getting up there a little and will want 12mil next season. Having an alternative in place would be nice. Plus Huntley can swap in for another line position if needed. Again, I feel he is a good talent at a modest price who can help us for at least 3 seasons.

Again, playing devil's advocate here...

But what is the real value of a $2.5m OT who's pretty decent? Look at how many of them there are this year - maybe ten or so guys out there? Just like two years ago, when we made the decision to sign T Johns, because he was decent and cheap. It just seems like this is how teh game works-- this position is always ripe in free agency, including plenty of guys who are willing to work for less than 2x the veteran minimum.

I agree that Huntley is the best of tis year's lot, sure. But what are we paying for? $2.5 million would make him one of our top 20 salaries... and all we'd do is reduce the starter's playing time to give Huntley a chance to play a bit? With real problems at other positions on the team (DE, QB, WR?) it's hard for me to accede that this is the most important place for us to spend some real money. Yes, $2.5m is modest in the sense that it's not $8 million... but that's at leats as much as we paid most of the guys we have brought in to start for us in past year -- starters at LB, DT, WR and even OL.

I think the only way that I can get behind Huntley at this price is if we think that he is so good that he will play for us right away at LG. He's a run-heavy guy, he fits with what we want to do with ouur OL - if he'll contribute right away, then fine - I'm good with bringing him in at that price. But I don't think we need a $2.5 million benchwarmer (at a position that traditionally sufferes by far the fewest injuries in the game).

Alternatively, if we think that we need to cut our current LT to save cap space, then Huntley might make loads of sense - to step right in and play for us at LT. That would be plenty sensible in my mind as well. I don't hear that argument at this point...

That's where I am on this. If it turns out that we don't have players we really need, and that we have money to burn this year, then I might well revisit my thinking on him. But as it is, I just don't see backup offensive tackle as a "need" position.

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by cuervo72
What $$ range are we talking? RDE J.C. Sinclair might be ok, he's asking $9,300,000, 2 yrs. 1st round choice in 2017. 11 sacks his first year, demoted in his 2nd, 11.5 his third, injured and/or demoted his 4th. Scouted 47/53 over all. An upgrade over what we have.

LDE Lenny Boykin looks like he would be ok - 75/75 run, 75/75 pass (also $9,300,000, 2 yrs.), but he has NO endurance and is a light hitter. LDE C.J. Benton is even cheaper, but looks to have a history of injuries (but as a Saggittarius would mesh with Littlejohn).

Looks like the best of the mid-priced lot, there. I think Sinclair is the most promising of the bunch... we're talking about putting up at lest $4-5 million in signing bonus to this guy, though. I have some trepidation, especially since I just see him as an "adequate" player, nothing too special. Last time we pursued a decent DE in free agency, we ended up laying out a huge deal for Todd Biegen, who we cut the following season and ate a big chunk of his bonus. Maybe that's my fear here.

[Fritz]

Originally posted by QuikSand
Let's see here - a few follow-up notes:

-Bidding for Billy Joe Mason starts around $20m a year, with a monster signing bonus. Unliikely we can do that.

-Comeaux can be had for around $3m/yr, and is chemistry-neutral

-Freuler is a conformed pick-thrower with more Int than TD for his career, including 22/29 last year... he'd have an affinity with DE leader Littlejohn

-Francis is young and unproven, might make a solid backup, I agree... probably would take a two year no-bonus offer, very palatable... he'd be chemistr-neutral (same sign as two leaders)

-Blair doesn't have the track record of interception problems that Frauler has, but our scout says he will be careless... wants $3m+... chemistry neutral


Looking around, I don't see anyone who really would help out much as a chemistry influence (Bobby Griffin is best I could fine, but he'd be a very shaky #2)... so my inclination might ne to pursue Heath Sparks for something like $4m/yr to return as our top option, and then to go after Ethan Francis as a decent, developable #2 for as long as deal as we can get with him. If we do that, we probaby don't need to make QB a priority for the draft, though we may need to consider waiving Bennie Tittle for salary reasons (and presumably replacing him with a rookie).

follow on to follow on notes:

- I didn't think we would make an investment in a Billy Joe Mason, just pointing out that he was close to perfect for what I am trying to do.

- I know management has an issue with interceptions, and Freuler has thrown a ton of them, but the coaching staff is comfortable with them. Freuler would be a nice addition, and I am sure we could get him on the +side of TD:Int.

- Francis is an absolute must go after type. If he stinks we can send him packing at very little cost to the club.

- Blair careless? I think he just gets excited.

[QuikSand]

I don't think we have any great options at DE for this year, honestly. How would people feel about heading into the season again planning to staff at least one DE position with guys who are nominally OLB?

Since we have a number of decent players at that spot (OLB) it's a natural thing to consider. Re-signing LB Mitchell would just give us one more guy to use there, as well.

Switching to the 3-4 probably should be back on the table again, I suppose. Nominally, we could move DT Peters or DT Littlejohn to the DE position, and then we could start four LBs behind them. That would give us only one DE spot to worry about, either by way of free agents or by rookie additions.

Probably need to think abouut this one... before we commit big money to a decent DE in free agency.

[QuikSand]

Fritz, what kind of financial investment do you think is reasonpable for the QB position in total?

If we pursued Francis as our #2, put him behind Sparks or one of the other $3-4m/yr guys you have pointed out, and had cheap guys as our #3 and #4... we'd have something like $7 million in that position.

If we pursued a veteran to be our #2 guy in addition to Sparks, then we'd be talking about $9-10m there.

Any input on how important the #2 QB job is... or do you defer to the greater will there? (We've obviously had to resort to our #2 QB at criticl times each season... so that might color our decision)

[Fritz]

Originally posted by QuikSand
That's where I am on this. If it turns out that we don't have players we really need, and that we have money to burn this year, then I might well revisit my thinking on him. But as it is, I just don't see backup offensive tackle as a "need" position.

Let me try this approach...

The offensive staff does not clamor for high profile top shelf players, but we do like to have depth. Huntley give us depth. We like to have our potential starters on the roster before they are needed, and Huntly gives us that as well.

I hope management reviews the gamelogs and realizes that the coaching staff makes good use of players, even ones in a reserve role.

This guy will improve the team and is very affordable. Lets afford him.

[Buzzbee]

My thoughts on offense:

QB's tend to be one of the more overpriced positions in the game. RB's also tend to be a little pricey, if they are a star (NOTE: the draft has supplied a good number of good, cheap RB's the past 2 years). FB's and TE's tend to be a good value. O Line seems like it is priced about right or a shade toward the value side.

As a result, I'd like to see us move in the direction (which I think we are/have been) of assembling a very stout O Line, good FB's and TE's, and then going for lesser QB's, RB's and WR's. In my opinion, a good, strong, balanced O Line will elevate a mediocre QB and RB in to a good QB and RB. Likewise a good QB and RB into a very good QB and RB.

In regard to the WR's, I'd like us to consider an idea I've been toying with. If we can find a QB who is very good on short and medium routes, with good accuracy and timing, I'd like to couple him with receivers who are excellent at getting downfield. If I remember correctly, getting downfield to some degree equates to "yards after catch". I'm curious how a short, accurate passing game with receivers who can break it for extra yardage would work. It might allow us to find a "system" type QB and complementary recievers cheaper than all-around players.

Just throwing it out there for you guys to chew on.

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by Fritz
The offensive staff does not clamor for high profile top shelf players, but we do like to have depth. Huntley give us depth. We like to have our potential starters on the roster before they are needed, and Huntly gives us that as well.

I hope management reviews the gamelogs and realizes that the coaching staff makes good use of players, even ones in a reserve role.

This guy will improve the team and is very affordable. Lets afford him.

While the offensive staff and the front office have differed on matters of philosophy at times, it's hard to refute the overall success of the planning done by said staff.

If this is your guy, we'll go get him.

Our offer now on the table: 3yrs, $7.6m ($2.0m bonus)

[Fritz]

Originally posted by QuikSand
Fritz, what kind of financial investment do you think is reasonpable for the QB position in total?

If we pursued Francis as our #2, put him behind Sparks or one of the other $3-4m/yr guys you have pointed out, and had cheap guys as our #3 and #4... we'd have something like $7 million in that position.

If we pursued a veteran to be our #2 guy in addition to Sparks, then we'd be talking about $9-10m there.

Any input on how important the #2 QB job is... or do you defer to the greater will there? (We've obviously had to resort to our #2 QB at criticl times each season... so that might color our decision)

What I think works best for us is 4 QBs. #4 is a roster saver and can be anyone. This just keeps us from having to make a midseason pickup.

#3 should be a developing guy. By our draft standards he is probably a second day pick.

#2 and #1 should be close in talent. A little better than a backup but not what other teams would look at as a starter. Sparks and Hutchens are a good example of this.

Looking at the current salaries, I think we should be able to get by around 10 M.

Sparks: 4.2
Francis: 1.4
Freuler/Blair 2.7
Rookie .7

is a little under that figure.

Top 20 QB avg sal is 5 Mil. We are shooting under that.
Top 5 QB avg is 11 Mil. We are getting our whole QB staff for under that.

[Buzzbee]

In regard to DE - How does the draft class look? Are there any good prospects that might still be around when we pick?

If not, might we consider trying to trade up? I believe our rules allow this:

-No initiating trades, other than trades during the draft involving current year's picks only.

the QB position is one that will require some attention, and most likely some $'s. Numbers wise we seem to be in pretty good shape. There aren't a large number of contributing players that we will need to re-sign, and not a lot of holes to fill, QB, O Line and DE being the noted exceptions. As a result, would it be worthwhile to perhaps trade away some picks to move up in the draft?

Generally I think the AI asks for way to much when trading and I very rarely do it, but once again wanted to throw it out as food for thought.

[QuikSand]

albionmoonlight... what gives with our nickelback getting all these sacks? I notice that CB Perry, who has a pretty mediocre season in coverage, did manage to post a crazy 8.5 sacks in only 257 pass plays last season. The year before, we got sacks from guys like CB Luther Duran (4) - presumably from being used in the same role.

Can you help 'splain what's going on with our defensive scheme? Is the "nickelback" role so heavily used in pass rushing that we really ought to be putting someone a little beefier back there?

[albionmoonlight]

3-4 discussion:

I think this may be the year to try out the 3-4. I wanted to do it coming in. I have been happy, however, with the 4-3, and part of me does not want to make a major change in a "make or break" year.

Still, since we are paying a lot of attention to the defense, it may be good to see how much a 3-4 changes what we have done from the 4-3.

If there are no good DEs in the draft or FA, then there are no good DEs. If we go to the 3-4, then we can use one of our DTs from last year as a DE. The other DE can be one of our OLBs. We still need someone, however, to replace Martin. That someone can be a MLB or an OLB (or even a DT), but we need at least one other body on the front seven.

If I am remembering right, I can see a 3-4 lineup like this

SLB: Mills
WILB: Shon
SILB: Daniels
WLB: [New guy] or Middleton

DE: Littlejohn
DT: Peters
DE: Middleton or [New guy]

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by Buzzbee
There aren't a large number of contributing players that we will need to re-sign, and not a lot of holes to fill, QB, O Line and DE being the noted exceptions. As a result, would it be worthwhile to perhaps trade away some picks to move up in the draft?

Let's see... we could probably move from #31 to around pick #12 or #15 by giving away the meat of our draft-- our 2nd and 3rd round picks, I'm guessing, perhaps another minor pick in there.

I agree with the earlier assessment - there are four top-grade DEs in the draft. Perhaps if we get past pick 10 or 12 or so, we can consider making an offer of this nature. But I wouldn't want to trade up in advance to pick #12 or so, only to find that we don't get any of our guys there.

I'm confident that we coudl get a playable guy at #31 at DE... probably not a star, but a guy we coudl suit up and use there for a few years, perhaps in rotation with more talented guys from the OLB group.

There are also at least a couple guys at LB who might be able to switch over and formally switch over to DE... that might be a backdoor way to fill the position a little more easily, but it involves some risk, too.

[Fritz]

on QBs: I don't value star-talent nearly as much as depth. A pair of guys like Sparks/Hutchens is better than a stud and a dud combo.

We could go with #1 Sparks and the #2 Francis. I think if we bring Francis in #3 this season we can talk him into resigning with a chance to compete for #1 at the end of the year. I know that is a bit speculative, but I think it is a solid philosophy in this case.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally posted by QuikSand
albionmoonlight... what gives with our nickelback getting all these sacks? I notice that CB Perry, who has a pretty mediocre season in coverage, did manage to post a crazy 8.5 sacks in only 257 pass plays last season. The year before, we got sacks from guys like CB Luther Duran (4) - presumably from being used in the same role.

Can you help 'splain what's going on with our defensive scheme? Is the "nickelback" role so heavily used in pass rushing that we really ought to be putting someone a little beefier back there?

I don't know, honestly.

I have the sack percentages weighted very heavy toward the LBs. The only member of the secondary who is slated to get more than a de minimis amount of sacks is SS (~10%).

We played a lot more nickel last year. Perhaps the nickel defense replaces the WLB with the nickleback and then gives the nickelback the WLB's sack percentage (~70%).

One way to check that theory would be to look at the plays each player played last year. If this theory is correct, Shon should have less plays per game than Mills or Daniels.

Another theory is that I have the "blitz multiple" box set to 65 (50=normal). I assumed that the multiple blitz would stick to the percentages that I listed on the screen. However, perhaps FOF uses the nickleback when it pulls the second blitzer.

Those are the two things that occur to me off the top of my head.

[Fritz]

Originally posted by QuikSand
If this is your guy, we'll go get him.


Thank you.

While we respect the thoughtful approach to salary management, we also appricate that the front office is flexible in accomdating the field staff.

While we have your attention, can the water cooler in the training room be replaced with one that has a hot water tap? The TE coach is a big fan of herbal tea.

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by albionmoonlight
3-4 discussion:

If I am remembering right, I can see a 3-4 lineup like this

SLB: Mills
WILB: Shon
SILB: Daniels
WLB: [New guy] or Middleton

DE: Littlejohn
DT: Peters
DE: Middleton or [New guy]

Okay, this presumes that we successfully re-sign both LB Mills and Shon. I'm not opposing this, just pointing out that we don't have all the eggs in ouur basket yet for this.

We do have a backup plan, though - as young LBs Rapp, Boyd, and Mitchell (assuming we re-sign him) are all ready to contribute. They may not be as stroing against the run as Mills, but each guys is multi-talented, and can contribute anywhere along the LB/DE axis.


And back to my question from this duscussion last year... do we have a sense what we gain or lose by switching to the 3-4 as envisioned above, and by stickinng with the 4-3 as we have it, using ouur two DTs as DTs, and taking out fourth LB and using him at DE? Again, I don't have much sense of this... but your inclusion of a LB in the DE mix even with the 3-4 alignment seems to beg the question.

[Buzzbee]

Are their any quality DT's in the FA market? Since we are considering shifting a DT to DE are there any DT's that might make good candidates for picking up a backdoor DE on the cheap?

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by albionmoonlight
We played a lot more nickel last year. Perhaps the nickel defense replaces the WLB with the nickleback and then gives the nickelback the WLB's sack percentage (~70%).

This is my theory, too. Interesting, though - I have never seen so many sacks from a DB without there being a conscious design behind it.

[QuikSand]

Anyone have any thoughts about WR Walt Pritchett? He's had a few good years during his long career (including one pro-bowl season), and can still contribute. He's only looking for about $2.6m a year - pretty cheap overall. I don't reckon we'd find lots of competition for his services.

Anyone interested?

[QuikSand]

The Kitty Hawk front office is pleased to announced that we have re-signed LB Otis Mitchell to a two year deal, which will keep him on the team through next season. As we face uncertainty with out defensive front seven, we're pleased to have a primising young player committed to being part of our clun moving forward. We expect Mitchell will get opportunities to contribute this year and beyond.

[albionmoonlight]

I'd need to look at the file, but if we have youth ready to fill the roles of Shon and Mills, I can work with that.

I don't really know what difference the game engine will make with the 3-4 instead of the 4-3.

One thing we can do from it is blitz from more directions--it is a bit more flexible that way.

Otherwise, I don't know if it will make a practical difference at all. Perhaps changing would be a way for us to learn a bit more about the game.

The good thing is that--depending on what falls to us--we don't really have to make that choice until before the first game of the season.

Also--I would love to trade up and snag a top 4 DE in the middle teens of the draft. However, if we are expecting economic sanctions again next year, then we may be looking for our 2nd and 3rd round picks from this year to contribute. We don't want to end up like the Saints after the Ricky Williams deal and have no depth.

When you run the draft, I would like you to stop it after the 3rd of the 4 gets picked. Depending on where the draft is at that point will dictate, to me, whether we should trade up or not.

[QuikSand]

Back to nickelback... I wonder if perhaps the best guy for the job there is S Orlando McNair? We've seen both guys on coverage - and the stats speak for themselves, McNair can get the job done. If we are going to continue using the nickel package frequently, McNair gives us every bit of the coverage skills that we have in Perry, but he is 20 pounds heavier and a far superior run enforcer.

Sommething to think about... last year we struggled to find a way to get McNair onto the field. I'll defer to our DC, but this seems like a possibility to me.

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by albionmoonlight
When you run the draft, I would like you to stop it after the 3rd of the 4 gets picked. Depending on where the draft is at that point will dictate, to me, whether we should trade up or not.

Good plan. Will do.

[Buzzbee]

Originally posted by QuikSand
And back to my question from this duscussion last year... do we have a sense what we gain or lose by switching to the 3-4 as envisioned above, and by stickinng with the 4-3 as we have it, using ouur two DTs as DTs, and taking out fourth LB and using him at DE? Again, I don't have much sense of this... but your inclusion of a LB in the DE mix even with the 3-4 alignment seems to beg the question.

My answer to that is...what happens if you convert a LB to a DE? I'm guessing that they lose some green and probably most of their red. I believe playing a LB as a DE probably has a similar effect. Yes, we haven't been bitten by using the LB as a DE, or have we? What are Middleton's numbers? And when Shon played?

Also, it seems like we had one game where our opponent beat us with long gains to the outside. I'm not saying that a LB as a DE won't or can't work. I'm just not sold on the fact that it has worked.

In my opinion having a "regular" DE as opposed to a converted LB has a better chance for success, even if the DE is a little lower in the skill categories. Just my impression, based on not a lot.

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by Buzzbee
My answer to that is...what happens if you convert a LB to a DE? I'm guessing that they lose some green and probably most of their red. I believe playing a LB as a DE probably has a similar effect.

I don't believe there is much evidence to this effect.

I've played plenty of FOF, and have had great successes using players out of their listed positions -- most notably RBs playing WR, and C playing G or T, but also LB playing DE, S playing LB, and so forth.

Yes, the game"punishes" players when they try to switch positions, but whatever penalty exists when a player plays out of position, it doesn't seem to be very noticeable.

And that's my main question ... if we can use that 4th LB as a DE anyway, then what's the point of switching to the 3-4? There may not be an answer to that, except for the marginal issues that alb has already brought up.

[Buzzbee]

Originally posted by QuikSand
I don't believe there is much evidence to this effect.

Easy way to check if you are not opposed to it. Fire up the game and convert all of our LB's to DE's. Note the results. Of course this would mean exiting without saving. It should give us a reasonable answer to our question.

[Buzzbee]

Originally posted by QuikSand
I don't believe there is much evidence to this effect.

I've played plenty of FOF, and have had great successes using players out of their listed positions -- most notably RBs playing WR, and C playing G or T, but also LB playing DE, S playing LB, and so forth.

Yes, the game"punishes" players when they try to switch positions, but whatever penalty exists when a player plays out of position, it doesn't seem to be very noticeable.

And that's my main question ... if we can use that 4th LB as a DE anyway, then what's the point of switching to the 3-4? There may not be an answer to that, except for the marginal issues that alb has already brought up.

And as FOF is concerned, there may not be much difference. I am probably thinking too much in a "real world" sense. If you are deep at LB and weak on the D line, a switch to 3-4 is a little easier to swallow. You do have a valid point that if we are playing a LB as a DE, what difference does it make.

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by Buzzbee
Easy way to check if you are not opposed to it. Fire up the game and convert all of our LB's to DE's. Note the results. Of course this would mean exiting without saving. It should give us a reasonable answer to our question.

No, no, no. Sorry, I'm not being clear.

I'm well aware that if you actually switch a LB to DE, he suffers a hit in ratings. Our guys, as it turns out, are too small to even try.

I'm just saying that putting an OLB like Middleton in to play DE like we did last year tends to yield pretty acceptable results (like it did last year). I don't think these guys play as if they had the "penalized" ratings - I think they generally play as though they were in the right position all along. If there's a "penalty" being applied, it's not as severe as what we frequently see if you actually switch them.

[Fritz]

Originally posted by QuikSand
Anyone have any thoughts about WR Walt Pritchett? He's had a few good years during his long career (including one pro-bowl season), and can still contribute. He's only looking for about $2.6m a year - pretty cheap overall. I don't reckon we'd find lots of competition for his services.

Anyone interested?

did you notcie he is still recoving from an ACL?

Song/Sanderson/Carr makes for a good lineup. 2 rooks to round out the squad will be fine unless we find a real steal.

SE Everett Thomas is more of of the type I would look for if we were going to bring a guy in.

He has good hands on 3rd down and would be a possesion type. He can also return a punt.

[Buzzbee]

Originally posted by QuikSand
No, no, no. Sorry, I'm not being clear.

I'm well aware that if you actually switch a LB to DE, he suffers a hit in ratings. Our guys, as it turns out, are too small to even try.

I'm just saying that putting an OLB like Middleton in to play DE like we did last year tends to yield pretty acceptable results (like it did last year). I don't think these guys play as if they had the "penalized" ratings - I think they generally play as though they were in the right position all along. If there's a "penalty" being applied, it's not as severe as what we frequently see if you actually switch them.

Then have we checked to see if there are any good FA LB's that might play in the DE slot? A good run stopper and pass rusher with negligible cover skills?

[Fritz]

Originally posted by Buzzbee
And as FOF is concerned, there may not be much difference. I am probably thinking too much in a "real world" sense. If you are deep at LB and weak on the D line, a switch to 3-4 is a little easier to swallow. You do have a valid point that if we are playing a LB as a DE, what difference does it make.

DEs don't drop into coverage.

[Fritz]

all -

If you are looking to get McNair into the game, why not play him at WLB?

[cuervo72]

Originally posted by Fritz

While we have your attention, can the water cooler in the training room be replaced with one that has a hot water tap? The TE coach is a big fan of herbal tea.

So is the Assistant Scout (when not drinking Tequila).

BTW - it doesn't look like there are that many good OLB's out there, and I would think if they're too old a position change probably would do more harm than good.

What do we want with our top pick, anyway? If we think we can get a 2nd level DE outside of the first round and have no other huge needs, maybe we swap it for a couple of lower level picks, save a little money, and roll the dice with DE/OLB draftees.

[Buzzbee]

And if LB's can play out of position at DE with little dropoff in performance, it seems like we shouldn't even bother with DE's. We should simply draft LB's and play them at DE. It gives us depth at OLB, ILB, and DE. This is especially true if DE's tend to be more expensive than LB's.

[cuervo72]

Hmm...I wonder if SLB Derek Covington could make a switch - 6-2, 264 out of Rice. Aquarius, Well liked by fans. PR Strength of 98 and 71 as a hitter. Or just keep him at LB :)

[cuervo72]

Dola - Rice must have had a good defense, because RDT Harold Emerson - 96 PRS, 6-2 306 - and DE Leonard Valdes also caught my eye....

[dixieflatline]

Switching to the 3-4 probably should be back on the table again, I suppose. Nominally, we could move DT Peters or DT Littlejohn to the DE position, and then we could start four LBs behind them. That would give us only one DE spot to worry about, either by way of free agents or by rookie additions.

I think this is a really good idea. In the 3-4 the DL is mostly responsible for stuffing the run which Peters and Littlejohn both do well. This also gets 4 athletic linebackers on the field to blitz or cover.

On the other side of the coin by playing an OLB at DE like last year you were still getting 4 linebackers on the field and the sack totals showed that was a good thing.

I think the current roster is a bit more suited to the 3-4 but it is hard to change a good thing and the defense played very well last year. I think it has the potential to play better this year though if aligned in the 3-4.

If that move does happen I would recommend putting the DT on the strong side of the formation(left in FOF I think) and the true DE on the weak side as more of a pass rushing position.

[cuervo72]

Originally posted by dixieflatline

If that move does happen I would recommend putting the DT on the strong side of the formation(left in FOF I think) and the true DE on the weak side as more of a pass rushing position.

Or you could look for situational matchups, depending on what the opponent's offensive strengths are. They may run more to the right, or have a particularly weak pass blocking tackle on one side, etc.

[dixieflatline]

Fritz,

When Sparks was playing last year what adjustments did you make to the gameplan to get Rubble and Wylie on the field? Both players were very effective last year and Wylie is only going to get better. Without the 2TE set I think it is going to be hard to use both(either?) of them effectively.

Like Quicksand's affinity for McNair I really like Wylie. Maybe I am the only one but he was the first pick last year and played well and I think he needs to be on the field.

[Fritz]

Originally posted by dixieflatline
When Sparks was playing last year what adjustments did you make to the gameplan to get Rubble and Wylie on the field? Both players were very effective last year and Wylie is only going to get better. Without the 2TE set I think it is going to be hard to use both(either?) of them effectively.


Hutchens was the QB for almost all of the season, and we were in a 61% running mode much of it. This means fair use of 2TE. While Kolowski and Diana are the Starters, Wylie and Wayne and Rubble were in on the 2 TE set. Rubble sees action as the pass back as well.

Not sure how I will do it this season with Sparks as the starter. Rubble and Wylie can expect to see a lot play time.

Originally posted by dixieflatline
Like Quicksand's affinity for McNair I really like Wylie. Maybe I am the only one but he was the first pick last year and played well and I think he needs to be on the field.

In my solo games I pay a great deal of attention to the FB, TE, and S. These guys often drop in the draft and become my core. If our RB situation were not so stong, you can be sure that Rubble would be rushing the ball about 120-150 times for about 600 yards.

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by Fritz
did you notcie he is still recoving from an ACL?


Yes, I did notice WR Pritchett's injury. It was part of what initially attracted me to him, though the short duration lessend that attraction. I was trying to be "on the level" in pointing him out, despite the fact that my true motivations are more sinister.

I'm having trouble finding a free agent who will satisfy my principal objective... but will keep looking. Maybe WR Deion Shepherd might be a better option? He has been pretty productive in recent years (averages 1,000 yards a season the last four years), and is only looking for around $2.4/yr. I'm not absolutely certain, but I think he might be a good addition in the original vein.

On furtyer review, maybe the best guy to target would be WR Lionel Booker. He had a breakout season with Ypsilanti last season after being their 3rd receiver for years - be busted out with 1,300 yards receiving and an invitation to the all pro team. A 7th year player right in his prime, he's only seeking about $2.5m/yr... not very steep at all.

This could be the guy for the job.

[QuikSand]

Fritz, I searched in vain for your discussion of QB formation knowledge from last season... but i recall you lamenting that SParks had lost command of a certain 2TE formation.

On his current list of 14, I see: Pro TE Pairs, Weak TE Pairs, Strong TE pairs, and Goal-Line 3TE.

Are any of these the formation that you would have been seeking to use much?

[QuikSand]

Here is some thinking about how we might occupy the remaining amount of cap space that we have available. We’ve got 22 spots, less 7 for the expected draft is 15—and $51 million to spend on those spots. Let’s see how much we have occupied so far:

We expect to get our three positional leaders—TE Diana, FB Kowalski, and T Johns. I’ll plug in $12 million for those three, though it certainly could end up being more. That bumps us down to $39m left for 12 spots.

I’m sensing from the DC that we’d like to re-sign at least one of our veteran LBs, Shon or Mills. For now, I’ll plug in one slot at $3.5 million for one of these guys, whomever we end up getting. So, $35.5M/11 spots.

We’ve had some discussions about OL, and I have offers in for two new players there—C Drake and T Huntley. Those two cost us $3.7m this year, bringing us down to about $32M/9 spots. Add in a new deal for G Hausrman, our current starter at LG, and we're down to about 30M/8 spots.

We’ve also discussed QB, and seem to have a plan here, too. We’ll pursue QBs Sparks and Francis, which should probably occupy around $6.2m… so we will knock our remaining cap space down to $24M/6 spots.

That, as nearly as I can tell, is what we have basically agreed to do. That leaves us without a single quality defensive end on the team, though we have discussed the possibility of using one or more OLB in that role. I’m just thinking that this can help refine our discussions… this might be more money on hand that we’re thinking we have available.

There might well be enough money on hand to invest in a big time player at a need position.

[QuikSand]

Something that might be reasonable to consider and still within our rules might be a one year offer to a free agent DE. I'm pretty impressed with Manning, and there are a few others who might make sense. Perhaps we could consider a sizable one year deal to one of them (around $5m salary and $5m bonus, for instance) as a strategy to make a needed improvement for this season, without adding to our potential problems for next year?

Just a thought. DE Sinclair is certainly a possibility as well, and at $4-5m/yr is much more affordable.

[QuikSand]

DT Brian Levine is a pretty cheap DT (asking only $1.35m/yr) who has some deceent pass-rushing skills. Might be a guy we coudl use in a DE rotation, and who couuld help in the DT spot against the pass, too.

[Fritz]

Originally posted by QuikSand
I'm having trouble finding a free agent who will satisfy my principal objective... but will keep looking.

What is your objective? an old guy on a short sweetheart deal that will usurp Diana as the leader?

[Fritz]

Originally posted by QuikSand
Fritz, I searched in vain for your discussion of QB formation knowledge from last season... but i recall you lamenting that SParks had lost command of a certain 2TE formation.

On his current list of 14, I see: Pro TE Pairs, Weak TE Pairs, Strong TE pairs, and Goal-Line 3TE.

Are any of these the formation that you would have been seeking to use much?

It was his loss of I TE Pairs. No biggie I guess. He is certainly versitle enough.

No chance for one of those other QBs to round out the set is there? I would to like get Francis under contract, but not ask much from him this season.

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by QuikSand
On further review, maybe the best guy to target would be WR Lionel Booker. He had a breakout season with Ypsilanti last season after being their 3rd receiver for years - be busted out with 1,300 yards receiving and an invitation to the all pro team. A 7th year player right in his prime, he's only seeking about $2.5m/yr... not very steep at all.

This could be the guy for the job.

Alas, further study of Booker have rendered him an inappropriate target on chemistry grounds. Oh, it was such a good plan, too.

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by Fritz
What is your objective? an old guy on a short sweetheart deal that will usurp Diana as the leader?

Yes.

[Buzzbee]

I don't know if anyone has mentioned him, but if Fritz is looking for some depth on the OL, we might want to take a look at RG Jerry Johnson. He is a 6 year veteran who has been used primarily as a backup. He looks like he has pretty good potential. He is only asking for about $2 mil a year for 2 years. Oh, and did I mention he would have an affinity with Leader Johns?

[Buzzbee]

Originally posted by QuikSand
Something that might be reasonable to consider and still within our rules might be a one year offer to a free agent DE. I'm pretty impressed with Manning, and there are a few others who might make sense. Perhaps we could consider a sizable one year deal to one of them (around $5m salary and $5m bonus, for instance) as a strategy to make a needed improvement for this season, without adding to our potential problems for next year?

Just a thought. DE Sinclair is certainly a possibility as well, and at $4-5m/yr is much more affordable.

A cheaper alternative at DE might be Brad Rosa. He is certainly not as good as Manning, but might be a good "budget" alternative. He would be chemistry neutral.

At SE Everett Thomas might also be a good fit. Primarily a backup in his first few years, he started 12 games last year. He caught 43 of 62 passes for 632 yards, and 6 TD's. He had only 4 drops. He's asking for a 3 year deal, a $2 mill bonus for a total of $8.1 million. I'll check on his chemistry. {EDIT: He is an Aries and chemistry neutral with Diana}

[cuervo72]

Originally posted by Fritz
What is your objective? an old guy on a short sweetheart deal that will usurp Diana as the leader?

Speaking of this, I happened to sort the FA's by leadership, and noticed that there is a TE by the name of Al Aska. Not a spectacular player (though better than Diana)...but Al Aska? :) (he's a Leo...I haven't checked compatability).

edit: Leos are incompatible with Capricorns, which Sanderson is. So that would be out I guess. Damn.

[cuervo72]

Still on the matter of TE's, assuming we want to dump Diana....the second rated TE in the draft (30/60), Kelly Spears, is a Virgo with a very strong personality (90) and a leadership of 85. Other points that stand out are run blocking (35/94), 3rd down catching (81/94) and route running (34/71). No big-play receiving. Might make a good possession TE. Of course, I guess we don't need another one of those drafted too highly with Wylie, so nevermind :)

Another guy I saw who wanted a 1 year contract but had high leadership (78) was Rich Sweeney. No blocking skills, poor route running, but good courage, gets downfield and VG on third down. Capricorn.

[QuikSand]

While I have no problem with making moves trying to change the leadership roles, let's recall - especially with marginal players, the position leaders are basically starters for life. If we want to draft someone or otherwise pick up a young player with an eye on him becoming the leader - we need to make peace with the notion that he will keep getting contract offers from us, and will keep getting to start, period.

Right now, as frustrating as it might be to have Diana and Kowalski in leadership roles, be thankful that they are (1) relatively less important roles than they could be, and (2) pretty old players, who will eventually shed on their own.

I'd hate to see us get to focused on shedding a guy like Diana that we commit to ten more years with a marginal talent starting for us at split end, who would eventually start getting paid even more than our old crummy TE.

[Fritz]

Diana and Kowalski have done okay. no need to move them along. We don't ask much and they give what we ask.

[Buzzbee]

Originally posted by Fritz
Diana and Kowalski have done okay. no need to move them along. We don't ask much and they give what we ask.

And with them having 13 and 14 years experience, I anticipate they'll be retiring at the end of their contracts. Speaking of which, how long is Diana asking? That might help us in planning for his leadership successor.

Of course if you really wanted to get rid of Diana as a starter, you could always change him to FB. Kowalski would remain Backfield leader and Diana would no longer be receivers leader. Based on our receivers leadership, it shouldn't be too hard to find someone with higher leadership. Although, we would want to be careful about who was Diana's successor.

I'm not suggesting we do this. I think it would be a pretty serious bend of the spirit of our rule and don't think we should allow ourselves to change a position just to serve our leadership purposes. (But it is an intriguing concept!:D )

[albionmoonlight]

I'd like you to make an offer to DT Levine. He is cheap, and the game allows us to sub in DTs for pass rushing situations. I think that he could give us some needed depth. Only DE and DT can sub for DT, so our surplus of LBs won't help us when a DT goes down. (And we still don't know if we are doing the 3-4 or the 4-3. If we stick with the 4-3, then we will really need the depth that he provides).

Also--I am tempted by your idea of getting Manning for this season. We won't know until the draft if we are able to draft a DE for the future. If not, then we will really need a body there until we can look next year. Even if we can draft a DE for the future in the draft, he will have a year to be situationally substituted until taking over full time next year.

So, I would like you to make an offer to DT Levine and a one year offer to DE Manning.

[QuikSand]

Okay, gang - here's where I have the game at the moment. I have submitted the following FA bids:

QB Sparks - 3yr, $15.0m
QB Francis - 2yr, $2.75m
FB Kowalski - 2yr, $3.80m
TE Diana - 2yr, $5.14m
C Drake - 2yr, $2.70m
G Hauserman - 3yr, $7.0m
G Johnson - 3yr, $6.33m
T Johns - 4yr, $38.76m
T Huntley - 3yr, $7.6m
DE Manning - 1yr, $10.0m
DT Levine - 2yr, $2.70m

My plan with our two current linebackers is to wait them out, intending to get one of them with a fairly late bid (Mills first). If they receive offers from other teams, I will either match the offers, or will come back to the group for more consultation.

Recall, we are able to pursue two more players after the FA process starts. In my mind, this is an opportunity to trawl for bargains, or to fill holes if we fail to lock up the FA players we are pursing (especially DE Manning, who I suspect we won't get at this bid). So, at some point, probably 10-15 weeks in, I will give a status report, and let you all know what's cooking.


Are we ready to start the FA process, then? Or are there more additions to our list of pursuits?


edit - added G Johnson to the offer list

[Buzzbee]

Originally posted by albionmoonlight
I'd like you to make an offer to DT Levine. He is cheap, and the game allows us to sub in DTs for pass rushing situations. I think that he could give us some needed depth. Only DE and DT can sub for DT, so our surplus of LBs won't help us when a DT goes down. (And we still don't know if we are doing the 3-4 or the 4-3. If we stick with the 4-3, then we will really need the depth that he provides).

Also--I am tempted by your idea of getting Manning for this season. We won't know until the draft if we are able to draft a DE for the future. If not, then we will really need a body there until we can look next year. Even if we can draft a DE for the future in the draft, he will have a year to be situationally substituted until taking over full time next year.

So, I would like you to make an offer to DT Levine and a one year offer to DE Manning.

Before we commit, to Manning (which I am not opposed to) I wanted to make sure we'd like to pass on DE Brad Rosa He isn't as good as manning, and wants a longer contract, but would be easier on the purse strings. Just wanted to put him out there for consideration.

Also, all - Have you looked at RG Jerry Johnson or SE Everett Thomas? I think they are players that are worth a look.

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by Buzzbee
Before we commit, to Manning (which I am not opposed to) I wanted to make sure we'd like to pass on DE [b]Brad Rosa He isn't as good as manning, and wants a longer contract, but would be easier on the purse strings. Just wanted to put him out there for consideration.

I'm open to the majority here, but I don't see an awfu lot in Rosa - not to make him a $5m+ multi-year offer. If he were $2 million, I'd say snap him up for certain, but if we'd pay $5m for Rosa, I'd much rather pay $8-10m for a true impact player.

Rosa's career PRPct of 4.3 is behind what we got our of Buddy Middleton in his rookie season. I'm not too enamored with him - solid, but not worth a big investment, in my mind.


[b]Also, all - Have you looked at RG Jerry Johnson or SE Everett Thomas? I think they are players that are worth a look.

Offer is in to G Johnson, but Fritz (while he likes Thomas) has indicated that his current complement of WRs will be okay.

[QuikSand]

Fritz, at one point you lobbied for G Mickey Lester. We're now offering money to another FA guard, Jerry Johnson. Do you have a strong opinion between these two? Lester is a heavy-run guy, while Johnson is solid overall. Both look like potential starters for us this year- but I think it makes sense only to pursue one of them, along with our own guy Hauserman.

Your thoughts?

[cuervo72]

Being an Assistant Scout, I'm deferring at this point. But the list looks good.

[Fritz]

Originally posted by QuikSand
Fritz, at one point you lobbied for G Mickey Lester. We're now offering money to another FA guard, Jerry Johnson. Do you have a strong opinion between these two? Lester is a heavy-run guy, while Johnson is solid overall. Both look like potential starters for us this year- but I think it makes sense only to pursue one of them, along with our own guy Hauserman.

Your thoughts?

I am unable to get to my game, so I can not compare. Just get us a guy that can move some linemen around in the run game.

[Buzzbee]

At G it might be good to have a balanced player to help protect the QB.

Age/leadership/sign are also factors to consider. Any pluses/minuses for either?

{EDIT: I checked an earlier post of mine and Johnson has an affinity with Johns.}{Hmmm...kinda obvious to see who I'm pushing for. ;)}

[Buzzbee]

Originally posted by QuikSand
I'm open to the majority here, but I don't see an awfu lot in Rosa - not to make him a $5m+ multi-year offer. If he were $2 million, I'd say snap him up for certain, but if we'd pay $5m for Rosa, I'd much rather pay $8-10m for a true impact player.

Rosa's career PRPct of 4.3 is behind what we got our of Buddy Middleton in his rookie season. I'm not too enamored with him - solid, but not worth a big investment, in my mind.

Good enough argument for me. So be it.

[cuervo72]

Johnson has 5 less seasons on him, and hasn't been used much. More upside (41/64), and is well liked by fans. Former 1st rounder, 86 BS, 30/63 RB, 31/60 PB, 32/36 END.

Lester is an 11 year vet looking for 3 years, 89 RB, 0/1 PB, 28 BS, 40 END. Has been a starter 6 years (CHA hardly played him in 2 stints), and has allowed over 12 sacks in 4 of those years. Lifetime BPtc of 30.3.

[QuikSand]

I think I'll leave Johnson on the pursuit list - especially at RG, I like to have some balance here. Hate to see the QB facing inordinate pressure from that spot.

[cuervo72]

Originally posted by Buzzbee
Good enough argument for me. So be it.

I always preferred J.C. Sinclair over Rosa anyway :D

[Buzzbee]

WooHooo!! They like my guy, they like my guy!!! Yeeehaaaaww!!


[angry face]
You better pan out, guy. Don't make me look foolish. You wouldn't like it if I look foolish.
[/angry face]

[Buzzbee]

Originally posted by cuervo72
I always preferred J.C. Sinclair over Rosa anyway :D

Yeah, just cuz you found him. :p

[QuikSand]

2022 Free Agency Process

Our Flyers have much work to do – as is often the case with main contenders, much of that work rests in getting our own proven players to return to the fold. For us, it’s for “another go” at the big prize that just eluded us last season.


Week One

The first returns from the FA process are good – not a single player from our pursuit group is listed as receiving a top offer from a different team. We’ve got a shot at a clean sweep, it seems.

G Dave Hauserman is back on a new three year deal, and DE Brian Manning jumped at our one year bonus-rich offer. But we still have more to consider.

We are the only bidders on every single other player on our list. Yes, that includes our three position leaders – so as expected, we anticipate seeing Diana, Kowalski, and Johns return to us for another tour of duty.

Nobody is pursuing either of our veteran linebackers – so our wait-and-see strategy is working so far.

It looks like Lake Erie QB Monty Glenn will break the bank, getting offers over $100 million for a four year deal. DE Jay Cedeno has inked Manhattan’s offer of over $16m per season – making our offer to DE Manning look downright pitiful by comparison.


Middle weeks

Our dominoes continue to fall – all our target players sign with us for the initial offers. It couldn’t have gone more smoothly.

As we reach week 8, we have 42 players signed to contracts, and $22 million in cap space (or $13.8m in space after we consider the rookie draft). LBs J.J. Mills and Demson Shon have adjusted their expectations down to around $3.1-3.2m per year each… we think they will probably go unpursued for a few more weeks. It looks pretty likely that we will have them available for our re-signing at our leisure.


However, we have a problem. DT Brian Levine, if he stays with the team, will become our defensive front leader. That causes heartburn for three players—our two unsigned free agents, and also DE Geoff Emerson. I think that we’ll have to jettison Levine (who signed without a bonus, so there’s no cost to us there). But we may need to make a move with a late FA pursuit to get a stopgap at DT.


In week 10, Memphis makes an approach to LB Demsond Shon. One year, $3.22 million. Not a great offer – but we probably need to decide now whether we want to retain him for the coming season.

This looks like a good stopping point, with a few things yet to be settled. I’ll distribute a file update, and we can plan our approach from here.

[QuikSand]

File update #1 of 2

[QuikSand]

File update #2 of 2

[QuikSand]

Okay, a no-brainer guy for us to pursue here:

DT Bart Guthrie, a true run-stopper prospect, is a 7th year player who has only gotten about 1 1/2 seasons worth of work in Tulsa. He has some abiliity to stop the run, with a pretty decent 9.1 TkPct grade from last season in about half time work. He can get to the QB a little (7.5 career sacks) but his forte is against the run inside. He would have an affinity with our leader, Littlejohn, but would not assume the leadership role.

Wants about $2 million a year - I say we pony up and sign him for two or three seasons.

[Buzzbee]

Mills vs. Shon - I think AB said he would prefer Mills. Where does Mills stand on the FA market? Any offers? If not, I say give Shon a nice pat on the fanny on his way out the door.

In scouting teams last year there were only 3 or 4 teams that ran to the left more than to the right. Those that ran to the right did so nearly twice as much. Typical numbers would be in the neighborhood of 150 middle, 140 right, 80 left. As a result, I think it is important to have a SLB who is good at stopping the run, as well as a good overall LDE. Therefore, I'm thinking Mills is the man for the job.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally posted by QuikSand
Okay, a no-brainer guy for us to pursue here:

DT Bart Guthrie, a true run-stopper prospect, is a 7th year player who has only gotten about 1 1/2 seasons worth of work in Tulsa. He has some abiliity to stop the run, with a pretty decent 9.1 TkPct grade from last season in about half time work. He can get to the QB a little (7.5 career sacks) but his forte is against the run inside. He would have an affinity with our leader, Littlejohn, but would not assume the leadership role.

Wants about $2 million a year - I say we pony up and sign him for two or three seasons.

Yes. In a heartbeat. I'll get him on the field one way or the other.

[Buzzbee]

Originally posted by QuikSand
Okay, a no-brainer guy for us to pursue here:

DT Bart Guthrie, a true run-stopper prospect, is a 7th year player who has only gotten about 1 1/2 seasons worth of work in Tulsa. He has some abiliity to stop the run, with a pretty decent 9.1 TkPct grade from last season in about half time work. He can get to the QB a little (7.5 career sacks) but his forte is against the run inside. He would have an affinity with our leader, Littlejohn, but would not assume the leadership role.

Wants about $2 million a year - I say we pony up and sign him for two or three seasons.

If you think it is a no brainer, sign away. Will this signing, plus our LB (Mills/Shon) signing finish us off for free agency?

[QuikSand]

WR Everett Thomas is still out there, and grades as one of the better cheap players available. Carr's contract is due after this year, and Sanderson's after next year - Thomas could be in our rotation this year, and could be a starter soon. Pretty affordable (about $2m) and chemistry-neutral.

There might be a passable role-player at DE out there for us, too. Brandon Boyd wants about $3.5m, and might be a passable fit for a year or two. For a little more cash, Brad Rosa and J.C. Sinclair are both still available, and have been touted here already. This might be a sensible way to spend a few bucks also.

Our rules liimit us to no more than two new pursuits (which doesn't include our own players) - so we have to make some choices - both in terms of what players/positions, and what duration to seek.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally posted by Buzzbee
Mills vs. Shon - I think AB said he would prefer Mills. Where does Mills stand on the FA market? Any offers? If not, I say give Shon a nice pat on the fanny on his way out the door.

In scouting teams last year there were only 3 or 4 teams that ran to the left more than to the right. Those that ran to the right did so nearly twice as much. Typical numbers would be in the neighborhood of 150 middle, 140 right, 80 left. As a result, I think it is important to have a SLB who is good at stopping the run, as well as a good overall LDE. Therefore, I'm thinking Mills is the man for the job.


It is about expectations. I like Mills better, but that is partly because I did not expect him to be anything more than a run plugger. However, I think he played above his reds last year--and even got a few INTs. And he has stayed healthy.

Shon has done fine as WLB, but I was expecting a big year out of him. I wanted 10+ sacks from a guy who is basically a 5th rusher most of the time. He didn't do that. In his defense, it looks like he goes off the field in nickel situations, limiting his numbers. Overall, however, he did not meet my expectations, while Mills exceeded my expectations. Hense, I like Mills better.

Someone more objective may, however, want to look at them to make sure that letting Shon go is the right call.

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by Buzzbee
Mills vs. Shon - I think AB said he would prefer Mills. Where does Mills stand on the FA market? Any offers? If not, I say give Shon a nice pat on the fanny on his way out the door.

I'll add to the reasoning here. We have a plethora of solid young LBs, most of whom have skill sets that are pretty comparable already to those of Desmond Shon.

Mills, on the other hand, gives us one thing - a guy who is focused on stopping the run. Nobody else among our LB corps is as good against the run as he is, and I think that's worth something. The fact that he will probably be the cheaper of the two is a nice bonus, but I think that because of the other players we already have on hand, Mills is actually the guy we need more, too.

[albionmoonlight]

Dola--I would not, however, be adverse to keeping both of them at the right price.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally posted by QuikSand
WR Everett Thomas is still out there, and grades as one of the better cheap players available. Carr's contract is due after this year, and Sanderson's after next year - Thomas could be in our rotation this year, and could be a starter soon. Pretty affordable (about $2m) and chemistry-neutral.

There might be a passable role-player at DE out there for us, too. Brandon Boyd wants about $3.5m, and might be a passable fit for a year or two. For a little more cash, Brad Rosa and J.C. Sinclair are both still available, and have been touted here already. This might be a sensible way to spend a few bucks also.

Our rules liimit us to no more than two new pursuits (which doesn't include our own players) - so we have to make some choices - both in terms of what players/positions, and what duration to seek.

Having gotten Martin and (hopefully) Guthrie, I don't think we really need another DE if we can get a WR for cheap.

[QuikSand]

I will point out that LB J.J. Mills, as a run-focused player, does become something of a target in the passing game. He yielded 41 catches last season - which is fairly high. Four picks and four passes defensed os pretyt nice, but we have to understand that he creates opportunities for an underneath passing game up against us.

(perhaps we ought to switch sides, and have Mills be the guy whwo comes out when we drop into nickel coverage?)

[Fritz]

I would prefer to draft a WR and pick up another in rookie FA

[QuikSand]

I'll also comment that last year's rookie LB Buddy Middleton, if not pressed into service to play at DE, looks very well-suited to take over Desmond Shon's role as our principal pass-rushing linebacker. If he stays on the field, he could do some real damage - he's a superior pass rusher to Shon.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally posted by QuikSand


(perhaps we ought to switch sides, and have Mills be the guy whwo comes out when we drop into nickel coverage?)

But then he will have to play the weak side, which is the opposite side of the majority of the running plays.

I do not think that FOF4 allows us to choose which LB to take out in the nickel situation. (And, since we are talking about it, how strong is our assumption/belief that it is the WLB who is taken out in nickel situations?)

[QuikSand]

There are also a fair number of pretty solid safeties in this FA market - and we haven't talked much about making an addition back there. I personally am very satisfied with our secondary, and love our third safety McNair... but there are some decent quality guys out there asking for around $2 million or so.

Are we thinking that getting DT Guthrie and one of the DEs makes the most sense?

[albionmoonlight]

We could try Daniels at SLB (which would allow him to rush some, too) and Mills at MLB, but Mills would still be on the field for passing downs.

If FOF4 does take the WLB out in nickel situations, that is pretty silly because SLB and MLB are the slots in which you would want your best run stoppers. One of them should come out on nickel downs.

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by albionmoonlight
(And, since we are talking about it, how strong is our assumption/belief that it is the WLB who is taken out in nickel situations?)

Not too strong - really just the evidence that we're getting all those sacks from the nickel back, plus the relative shortage of plays that Shon got last year.

Shon got 245 run plays, and 320 pass plays.
Mills got 319 run plays, and 519 pass plays.

The big difference is definitely against pass plays... which is a shame since Mills is really a run-stopping specialist.

[albionmoonlight]

I don't know how much another safety would get to see the field. We are pretty set back there.

My only (selfish) request if we do pick up a role player DE here is to not close the door to drafting a stud DE if one falls to us. I understand that the need to trade up may be gone, but if we can get one for good value to relace Martin, I would not want us to ignore the chance.

However, another DE would allow us to play Middleton "in position" and would pretty much let us let go of Shon without consequence--which would be nice.

[albionmoonlight]

. . . So I'm cool with it.

[Buzzbee]

Originally posted by albionmoonlight
But then he will have to play the weak side, which is the opposite side of the majority of the running plays.

I do not think that FOF4 allows us to choose which LB to take out in the nickel situation. (And, since we are talking about it, how strong is our assumption/belief that it is the WLB who is taken out in nickel situations?)

I agree that Mills will need to stay at SLB.

Maybe this might be one benefit of a 3-4 that we haven't thought of. In the nickel we have Mills, Daniels, and Middleton/Rapp on the field with Perry coming in at nickel. When we aren't in the nickel we substitute Plank or Mitchell as the 4th LB.

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by albionmoonlight
My only (selfish) request if we do pick up a role player DE here is to not close the door to drafting a stud DE if one falls to us. I understand that the need to trade up may be gone, but if we can get one for good value to relace Martin, I would not want us to ignore the chance.

Agreed, especially with Manning aboard really just as a stopgap to get us throuugh this year.

[cuervo72]

What's the opinion on if Otis Mitchell can come in and replace Mills? Guys got some potential (he wasn't drafted?). Not strong against the run now, but could get there.

[Buzzbee]

Originally posted by QuikSand
Shon got 245 run plays, and 320 pass plays.
Mills got 319 run plays, and 519 pass plays.


And what about Perry, if we add his numbers to Shon, does it come close to what Mills has?

[cuervo72]

Originally posted by QuikSand
Not too strong - really just the evidence that we're getting all those sacks from the nickel back, plus the relative shortage of plays that Shon got last year.

Shon got 245 run plays, and 320 pass plays.
Mills got 319 run plays, and 519 pass plays.

The big difference is definitely against pass plays... which is a shame since Mills is really a run-stopping specialist.

Maybe this is a case of endurance actually factoring in - 22 for Shon, 38 for Mills? Though it would appear the nickel answer correlates more strongly.

[Buzzbee]

I'm ok with picking up another DE. I agree with Albion that it will give us more versatility on the D Line and perhaps allow Middleton to move to a more natural position.

I'd like to get WR Everett Thomas, but if Fritz is happy with his squad, it's good enough for me.

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by Buzzbee
And what about Perry, if we add his numbers to Shon, does it come close to what Mills has?

Perry got in for 111 and 257, which strongly suggests thet he was getting most of Shon's nickel time.


If we're confident that the WLB drops out in the nickel package, then I'm thinking it migt actually make sense to have Mills play on the weak side, and have Middleton play the strong. Yes, it fails on the "run side" analysis, but it certainly puts our players on the field at the right time. I'd then suggest that we use the Sam as the main blitzbacker rather than the Willie... and have Middleton either blitzing or covering frequently - both of which he should do very, very well.

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by cuervo72
What's the opinion on if Otis Mitchell can come in and replace Mills? Guys got some potential (he wasn't drafted?). Not strong against the run now, but could get there.

Actually, I think that Mitchell's future might lie at MLB. His only real weakness is pass rushing (and only partially so there) but if he really develops as ourscout suggests, this guy becomes a great run stopper and a very good drop-back cover man 0-- exactly what we want from our MLB.

He can make the position switch pretty painlessly this year, so our scout says. If we land Mills, we'll have the bodies to allow the move.

[cuervo72]

Another strike against Shon then it would appear.

[Buzzbee]

Originally posted by QuikSand
I'd then suggest that we use the Sam as the main blitzbacker rather than the Willie... and have Middleton either blitzing or covering frequently - both of which he should do very, very well.

I'm not sure I agree with making the SLB the main blitzer. Remeber, Perry was very effective at getting to the QB from the nickel slot. If what Albion suspects is true, it's because the WLB was set with a high blitz %. Dropping this down MAY result in less blitzing from the nickel back. That may be good, that may be bad. Just something to consider.

{EDIT: By the way, if we have DE to fill that spot, I wholeheartedly agree with Middleton moving to SLB (or WLB for that matter). As a result, I fully support another DE through the FA market (and maybe in the draft as well, if one drops in our laps).

[Fritz]

just football talk, not GT talk:

if you blitz the SAM then you usually cover the TE with the SS, hurting your ability to double or deep cover.

[albionmoonlight]

From the Kitty Hawk Times-Herald:

Home for Sale:

4 BR, 3 1/2 Bath, screened in porch. Beachfront lot. Must see to believe! Job related relocation; owner must sell. Contact D. Shon at 555-1232

[Buzzbee]

Originally posted by albionmoonlight
From the Kitty Hawk Times-Herald:

Home for Sale:

4 BR, 3 1/2 Bath, screened in porch. Beachfront lot. Must see to believe! Job related relocation; owner must sell. Contact D. Shon at 555-1232 :D

[QuikSand]

I'm prepared to break the tie, and put in a bid for DE Sinclair. Any objections?

If not, we can go ahead... and probaby get through free agency and into the draft. Where the real debates will start up!

[cuervo72]

Originally posted by Buzzbee
As a result, I fully support another DE through the FA market (and maybe in the draft as well, if one drops in our laps).

Just taking a look at it...Niagra Falls, Hawk Mountain, Champaign, Key West and Fort Knox all list their biggest need as Start DE. That's our second need, along with Mazatlan, Sacramento, Memphis and Tulsa.

It lists our biggest need as G, third need as Start S.

[Buzzbee]

Didn't know we had a tie. I thought we all pretty much agreed to go with an additional DE. Sign away.

[cuervo72]

Oh, and the position strengths lists Little Rock as having the 2nd best DE reserves. Their main reserve? Brad Rosa. :D

[cuervo72]

Dola - I was just commenting on the probability a DE would fall to us in the draft...I don't think that will happen.

[Buzzbee]

Originally posted by cuervo72
Oh, and the position strengths lists Little Rock as having the 2nd best DE reserves. Their main reserve? Brad Rosa. :D

SEEEEE!!! Told you he was good!!

Just too pricey as QS pointed out.

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by Fritz
just football talk, not GT talk:

if you blitz the SAM then you usually cover the TE with the SS, hurting your ability to double or deep cover.

And by implication, if you don't blitz the Sam, then you are using hiim to cover the tight end or the appropriate intermediate zone. Which gives opposing offenses a mismatch, as Mills is simply awful as a cover man.

[Buzzbee]

Originally posted by QuikSand
And by implication, if you don't blitz the Sam, then you are using hiim to cover the tight end or the appropriate intermediate zone. Which gives opposing offenses a mismatch, as Mills is simply awful as a cover man.

Yes, but in FOF the TE's aren't utilized as much as they probably should be, making Mills' cover skills, or lack thereof, less significant.

[QuikSand]

Desmond Shon finally accepts the offer from Memphis, and will head there for the coming season.

In the final weeks of the FA period, we work out three deals. We re-sign LB J.J. Mills, and also pick up two more defensive linemen, to help fill a real need area. DT Bert Guthrie and DE J.C. Sinclair both will move directly into our front seven rotation, and should help out right away.

We release DT Brian Levine, who was a threat to our team’s overall harmony – and will depend on the other players in the fold.

This brings us to the rookie draft with 44 signed players, and about $8m in open cap room remaining.

[QuikSand]

Front Office Football: The Fourth Edition
Kitty Hawk Flyers Roster, Contract View

Player # Pos OnTm EndCnt Exp Cap Cost Save if Rlse
Sparks, Heath 18 QB 2020 2024 8 $4,900,000 $3,600,000
Francis, Ethan 8 QB 2022 2023 6 $1,350,000 $1,350,000
Tittle, Bennie 13 QB 2020 2022 3 $1,300,000 $1,200,000
**Hutchins, Chuck 17 QB 2020 UFA 9 $0 $0
Crane, Alan 15 QB 2021 ---- 2 $0 $0
Finley, Daniel 20 RB 2018 2023 5 $9,760,000 $5,500,000
Strong, Rob 24 RB 2020 2022 3 $1,190,000 $1,130,000
Harden, R.J. 47 RB 2021 2022 2 $950,000 $890,000
Rivers, Dennis 31 RB 2021 2022 2 $770,000 $770,000
Rubble, Earnest 39 FB 2020 2023 3 $2,400,000 $1,500,000
Kowalski, Rondell 36 FB 2020 2023 13 $1,900,000 $1,900,000
Wylie, Larry 86 TE 2021 2025 2 $3,720,000 $2,080,000
Diana, Julio 80 TE 2019 2023 14 $2,570,000 $1,900,000
Wayne, Bernard 82 TE 2020 UFA 5 $0 $0
Song, Peter 84 FL 2019 2024 4 $9,300,000 $5,550,000
Sanderson, Robert 83 FL 2020 2023 3 $3,150,000 $2,040,000
Carr, Kenneth 81 FL 2020 2022 10 $2,400,000 $1,800,000
Matthews, Julio 88 FL 2020 UFA 5 $0 $0
Andrews, Willie 65 LT 2018 2023 13 $16,300,000 $10,000,000
Johns, Timothy 61 LT 2020 2025 8 $7,480,000 $5,230,000
Huntley, David 66 LT 2022 2024 7 $2,460,000 $1,800,000
Hausermann, Dave 72 LG 2020 2024 7 $2,200,000 $1,600,000
Drake, Chuck 59 C 2022 2023 5 $1,350,000 $1,350,000
Cicci, Carlton 60 C 2020 ---- 3 $0 $0
Johnson, Jerry 78 RG 2022 2024 6 $1,900,000 $1,350,000
Wallace, Irv 71 RG 2021 2022 4 $1,250,000 $1,250,000
Peterson, Rufus 68 RG 2019 ---- 4 $0 $0
Trask, Marco 63 RG 2021 ---- 2 $0 $0
Grolsko, Frank 64 RT 2021 2023 2 $1,050,000 $920,000
Chanoine, Ed 62 RT 2021 ---- 2 $0 $0
Saldana, Van 14 P 2021 ---- 2 $0 $0
Arellano, Neil 19 K 2021 2023 2 $1,210,000 $920,000
Manning, Bryan 93 LDE 2022 2022 13 $10,000,000 $5,000,000
Peters, Ellis 70 LDT 2020 2022 9 $2,800,000 $2,100,000
Cochrane, Edward 92 LDT 2021 ---- 2 $0 $0
Preston, Mario 95 LDT 2021 ---- 2 $0 $0
Littlejohn, Jack 77 RDT 2019 2023 4 $4,920,000 $3,330,000
Guthrie, Bart 91 RDT 2022 2024 7 $2,020,000 $1,470,000
Sinclair, J.C. 90 RDE 2022 2024 6 $3,500,000 $2,500,000
Emerson, Geoff 76 RDE 2019 2022 4 $1,220,000 $1,220,000
Floyd, J.B. 79 RDE 2021 ---- 2 $0 $0
Mills, J.J. 50 SLB 2020 2024 10 $2,800,000 $2,100,000
Boyd, Howie 94 SLB 2021 2024 2 $1,570,000 $920,000
Rapp, Percy 97 SLB 2021 2023 2 $920,000 $920,000
Daniels, Russell 96 MLB 2020 2023 8 $12,750,000 $10,000,000
Plank, Oscar 56 MLB 2021 2022 7 $1,450,000 $1,450,000
Middleton, Buddy 98 WLB 2021 2024 2 $2,320,000 $1,420,000
Mitchell, Otis 55 WLB 2021 2023 2 $770,000 $770,000
Henderson, Joseph 42 LCB 2020 2022 7 $4,810,000 $3,710,000
Duran, Luther 28 LCB 2020 2023 3 $1,790,000 $1,200,000
Devitt, Cornell 32 LCB 2021 2023 4 $1,150,000 $1,150,000
Bordano, Edgar 29 RCB 2018 2022 5 $6,000,000 $5,000,000
Perry, Shane 35 RCB 2021 2022 7 $1,400,000 $1,400,000
Hawkins, Ricky 33 SS 2020 2022 12 $4,000,000 $3,000,000
Bradley, Richard 40 SS 2021 ---- 2 $0 $0
Reynolds, Louie 30 FS 2018 2022 13 $2,260,000 $1,900,000
McNair, Orlando 45 FS 2020 2022 3 $1,390,000 $1,130,000

$$ - player is in starting lineup, ## - player is inactive.

Players Under Contract: 44
On Active Roster: 44

Salary Cap: $179,300,000
Cap Room: $15,060,000
Maximum for New Player: $6,800,000
Cap Room Lost (to old contracts): $13,540,000

Cap Room Lost Next Year (to old contracts): $0
Cap Room Required Next Year: $117,000,000

[QuikSand]

2022 Rookie Draft

We’re keeping our eyes on the top four defensive ends in the draft, and to nobody’s surprise, they are a hot property. Here’s the progress so far:


1. Mazatlan - Bush, Van, DE, Tulane
2. Ocean City - Mahe, Randy, CB, Florida
3. Niagara Falls - Wolfe, Riddick, DE, Florida
4. Thunder Bay - Dunn, Sammie, DT, Notre Dame
5. Fort Wayne - Wynn, Dixon, T, Brigham Young
6. Wheeling - Westbrook, Gene, DT, Florida
7. Champaign - Tate, Josh, T, Virginia Tech
8. Tulsa - Alexander, Maurice, DE, Northwestern


With that, three of the “big four” are gone, and we face a decision. Dominic Glenn out of Clemson is the “best guy left” (and probably the weakest of the initial foursome) and if we wanted to bring in an impact player at the position, this is the guy.

From what I can see, the best trade offer that Ypsilanti (who is on the clock right now) will consider is to get our pick at #31, plus our picks in rounds 3, 4, and 5 in exchange for the pick at #9 overall. In my mind, that’s really not an absurd deal from our perspective.

I leave it up to the wisdom of the group to consider our options…

[Fritz]

O needs from rookies

1: QB an honest to gosh prospect would be nice. Given the time to develop, we might be able to fish a guy out at the start of the second day. A first day type would be nice as well.
1: FB likely cut after pre season
1: TE #3, this guy just needs to block, so a blocking and ST guy would be a good fit
3: WR 1 to develop, 1 who will probably sit inactive, 1 who will probably get cut
1: G anything from budding star to place holder will do.
2: C to compete for #2 spot.

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by Fritz
1: TE #3, this guy just needs to block, so a blocking and ST guy would be a good fit

Since TE Bernard Wayne went unclaimed through the FA process, and we will indeed have the cash to afford him - it's certainly reasonable to think we might drop $1.35m to ink him for another season... or two.

Just in case that factors in. He's a very capable blocker.

[Fritz]

Originally posted by QuikSand
Since TE Bernard Wayne went unclaimed through the FA process, and we will indeed have the cash to afford him - it's certainly reasonable to think we might drop $1.35m to ink him for another season... or two.

Just in case that factors in. He's a very capable blocker.

That would be great, but we I am not going to pressure that direction.

[Buzzbee]

I'm against trading up. We did get one very solid DE in Free Agency. To give up 4 players for one, I think it is hard to justify. Especially since we have shown that a LB CAN step up and fill the DE position. Since we bolstered the front 7 with DE Manning, I say let it go.

I think areas we need to address include C, S, & WR. So far the first 8 picks have been on the line of scrimmage. I like to pick what others aren't picking, so I say hold the 31st pick and see if a good Center or Safety is available. I don't have the game in front of me so I'm not sure how good C Drake is, but for his salary, I'm guessing he isn't a superstar. Also with Winters retiring and Cicci out of contract, Center is an important area to fill. This is true especially considering we like to run up the middle.

[albionmoonlight]

As DC, I guess that I should be clamoring for a trade-up. However, giving up 3 players for one is a bit steep.

I would recommend seeing if Glenn falls into the early 20s. If not, let's think of some other options.

The run on DEs in this draft makes me think that, at some point, we will have to bite the bullet and trade into the top 10 to get a good one. I do, not, however, think that the year to do it is the year that we are picking from #31.

[cuervo72]

I don't think we want to mortgage a whole draft just to move up. S may be a good call, considering it isn't a really strong position and besides McNair our safeties are OLD. Cornell Burns looks nice.

Of course, WR Sammie Boone looks like a hell of a weapon...100 3rd down, 100 big play, 100 KR.

edit - get a load of Marco Huerta's RB skills from a pure running standpoint...yikes. Not that we really need another RB.

[QuikSand]

Wow. I was amazed that they wanted so little for the trade. I woudl have jumped on this in a heartbeat.

I will advance the draft a while... if Glenn does indeed slide, we may revisit this shortly.

[QuikSand]

Rookie Draft, continued


9. Ypsilanti - Golden, Bernie, G, California
10. Providence - Boone, Sammie, WR, Maryland
11. Norfolk - Ekuban, Tracy, T, Texas
12. Tijuana - Clarke, Larry, QB, Rice
13. Sacramento - Glenn, Dominic, DE, Clemson
14. Bermuda - Pasricha, J.R., S, Utah
15. Athens - Chabala, Steven, T, Syracuse
16. Texarkana - Norris, Joel, ILB, Arkansas
17. Pensacola - Hodges, Andrew, ILB, Clemson
18. Napa Valley - Emerson, Harold, DT, Rice
19. Key West - Miller, Barry, ILB, Virginia
20. Manhattan - Giles, Dana, DT, Penn State
21. Puget Sound - Kingsley, D.J., DE, Florida
22. Puget Sound - Poston, Leonard, G, Tulane
23. Death Valley - Concerto, Ronald, T, Army
24. Little Rock - Manning, Ed, QB, Northern Illinois
25. Hawk Mountain - Huerta, Marco, RB, Penn State
26. Memphis - Valdes, Leonard, DE, Rice
27. Cheyenne - Thomas, Kenneth, QB, Virginia Tech
28. Lake Erie - Blair, Cornell, T, UCLA
29. Nashua - Burroughs, Antoine, WR, Georgia Tech
30. Sault Ste. Marie - Halapin, Malcolm, ILB, Miami, Florida


So, the DE goes as slot #13, and the top guys at the position are off the board. I watched the top two guys at center (one of the positions mentioned as a possible target for us) since they both looked pretty worthy to me. I was ready to stop the draft if either was taken – but alas, they both remain available. So, both Kenneth Alston and Glen Frederick are available for us. Both are affinity-neutral.

Safety Cornell Burns is also still on the board, and has been mentioned. Good interceptor, but not great in zone coverage. We are mainly a man-up team, but I don’t know how often the safeties end up in zone anyway. He’s too big to shift to CB, but looks like a potentially valuable contributor.

WR Daryl Anunson looks like the best of his position – solid, good potential as a possession receiver, excellent return skills.

There’s also the predictable array of talent at OL and LB, as is always the case, it seems.

We have some stuff to chew on now.

[Fritz]

mmmmm a WR....

[Buzzbee]

Mmmmm...a center.

[cuervo72]

Wow, Kingsley and Valdes, who I thought were the best of the "2nd tier" DE's, are already gone. Still a couple of ok ones there, but there sure has been a run on them. I like any of the 4 guys you listed.

[QuikSand]

I'm having trouble sending the file update... it just hangs when I try to upload. Sorry, I'll keep trying.

[QuikSand]

I think we shoudl still select a DE here, despite the various decent-looking players elsewhere. I htinik the guy to take is NT Sam Upshaw, who at 283 lbs is just begging to be converted to play DE - he might even improve.

He looks like a monster pass rusher, potentials of 93 and 77 there. Plus, he has some pretty decent ratings already, which means he could help out now, and also (in many of our minds) seems to make him a less likely bust candidate.

DE remains a "stupid money" position, unlike C and S, and maybe even WR-- we're finding it very hard to sign and retain quality players at that position by way of free agency. Here's a guy who can make a difference for us for years to come, and the single most troubling position on this roster. I say we grab him.

[cuervo72]

Is he tall enough to play end? He's only 6'1". Hmm...actually, just tested Bryan Levine and he would have transitioned to DE at 88%. So I guess it's possible physically.

[QuikSand]

Position switches are guided by weight only. Height is, as far as we know, meaningless in the game.

[Buzzbee]

I'm pretty neutral regarding the players mentioned so far. I'd shy away from a WR over a C since we do have receivers who can start and who have started.

Sliding Upshaw to DE is ok wid me. Since I don't have the files in front of me, I'll defer to your guys judgement.

[albionmoonlight]

I'll vote for Upshaw for the reasons given by Quik.

[Buzzbee]

Just want to check on Upshaw - Leadership and sign?

[cuervo72]

Average (46) and Scorpio. So as long as a Pisces isn't the current leader.

edit: good with Upshaw also.

[Fritz]

Originally posted by Buzzbee
I'm pretty neutral regarding the players mentioned so far. I'd shy away from a WR over a C since we do have receivers who can start and who have started.


this is exactly why you take WR early in the draft. He can be a reserve for a year or two then move into a starting role.

[Buzzbee]

Originally posted by Fritz
this is exactly why you take WR early in the draft. He can be a reserve for a year or two then move into a starting role.

Or you can go with a position player who can start immediately and make an impact for a few years longer. Then draft your benchwarmer WR in a lower round and let him develop.

Just a different philosophy. Either one can be effective, and neither one is the "right" way.

[Fritz]

since you have aknowledged that your suggestion is the wrong way, we should should go with the WR.

[Buzzbee]

Originally posted by Fritz
since you have aknowledged that your suggestion is the wrong way, we should should go with the WR.

Touche. :D And just for that, I submit to Fritz's wishes (for draft purposes only!)

{EDIT: Boy I have a feeling he's gonna Fritz the hell out of that one.}

[Fritz]

honestly, I can't see the players, so I am not in a postion to suggest a course of action. Any of the players would be fine.

With our team in fairly good order perhaps we should just go BPA

[Buzzbee]

All - I am like Fritz. Without having the players in front of me, it is difficult to determine which player I like most. How is the depth at each position? Is there a big dropoff with DT's? WR's? C's? If there is in any one of those positions, perhaps that might dictate our pick. If talented WR's are pretty plentiful, then maybe we can pick one up in the 2nd round. Likewise with DT and C.

[gkb]

Just a quick interjection here...

First off, I've been lurking throughout your run with the Kitty Hawks. I love what you guys are doing and it's a highly entertaining thread. Keep up the fantastic work!

Second, what the hell does dola mean?

Third, how are you guys feeling about the difficulty of the challenge? It appears that you've had amazing success so far, even with your house rules limitations.

Have you guys considered adding a house rule that does not allow you to use a player out of position? So no more using LB in the DE slots? Unless of course you actually changed them from a LB to a DE. I only ask because I'm wondering if that would make things a bit more challenging for all of you...

That's it...again, keep up the great work. I refuse to read this thread when I'm at home because it keeps me entertained throughout the day while I'm at work. :)

Carry on men.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally posted by gkb
Just a quick interjection here...

First off, I've been lurking throughout your run with the Kitty Hawks. I love what you guys are doing and it's a highly entertaining thread. Keep up the fantastic work!

Second, what the hell does dola mean?

Third, how are you guys feeling about the difficulty of the challenge? It appears that you've had amazing success so far, even with your house rules limitations.

Have you guys considered adding a house rule that does not allow you to use a player out of position? So no more using LB in the DE slots? Unless of course you actually changed them from a LB to a DE. I only ask because I'm wondering if that would make things a bit more challenging for all of you...

That's it...again, keep up the great work. I refuse to read this thread when I'm at home because it keeps me entertained throughout the day while I'm at work. :)

Carry on men.

Thanks for the nice words.

Dola is a way of indicating that you are making multiple posts in a row. It is named after a former forum member named Dolamite who, among other things, would artifically inflate his post count by

[albionmoonlight]

making

[albionmoonlight]

posts

[albionmoonlight]

like

[albionmoonlight]

this.

Needless to say, that got annoying. (He also said some pretty funny things about going to a "really prestegious university" that he never named. If anyone has access to the way back machine, it may be worth it to pull up some old Dolamite threads. Those were fun.) For obvious reasons, most people don't use "dola" in a dynasty thread. I do it sometimes here out of habit.

As far as your house rule suggestion goes, I think that it would add to the challenge of the game a lot. And it would not allow us to exploit the system by having DEs that are getting LB salary, etc.. However, I can't speak for Fritz, but a lot of the fun for me is messing with the depth charts and the game plans to see how to get the most out of everyone. I think my job would be a lot less fun without that ability.

Perhaps the change that should occur is that the AI should get better at using the depth chart in this way, so the human does not have an advantage. However, I can see how that would be a BITCH to program, and I am fine with the way things work right now.

I do, however, wish that we could say who should be subbed out in Nickel situations.

[albionmoonlight]

Oh--and until we win the Super Bowl, I won't complain about the lack of difficulty in the challenge.

[QuikSand]

I hoep everyone who didn't have access to the game during the day will give a look this evening... I think this draft has the potential to be a fairly defining point for our franchise.

Let's keep in mind the possibility that we might want to trade up, and perhaps get two of the players we are currently considering. That is, of course, if we could agree on which two players. I'm guessing that we could deal our 2nd and 3rd picks to get a pick in the earfly 2nd round - which might land us one of the top handful of players currently being discussed. If we could come out of this draft with future star players at WR and DE, I'd be very happy - even if that mean doing without a bunch of riffraff from the middle to late rounds (and instead getting riffraff from after the draft). Let's keep that option on the table.

[Fritz]

With our leadership rules, my out of position subs tend to be reserves, so I think the main effect would be to force us to do mid season release and signs. I think that would be more of a pain than anything else.

I think some of record is a function of lucky breaks. Perhaps in a season or two we will need to find a way to tighten things up.

Glad you are enjoying the dynasty. Just focusing on a portion of the game has been very rewarding. If you want to hop in, chime in with your thoughts and suggestions.

[Buzzbee]

I'm ok with trading 2 and 3 for a higher 2. We are in pretty good shape with our starters, cap, and numbers (IMO) so I'll gladly sacrifice quantity for quality.

I'll try to look at the files after dinner if my daughter isn't on the PC doing homework.

[QuikSand]

On a metagame level... what do we make of WR Al Hartzell? This guys is clearly cut from a different cloth than most others in the draft-- has great ratings in a few areas, and dirt in the rest.

My money says that he gets a lot better over time... and possibly develops into a starting-level player.

Not lobbying for us to take him, just trying to notice some of the scenery along the way. He's an odd player... sort of liike our OT Grolsko was when we took him. Just doesn't look quite like the rest of them.

[QuikSand]

So, am I hearing that it would be a higher priority to get a top rookie WR than a top rookie center? If we made a maneuver to get both the DE and WR, that probably means re-signing Cicci to be our reserve C, and going with our free agent Chuck Drake for this year and perhaps beyond. Is that an acceptable situation, in order to acquire a starting-caliber receiver?

[Buzzbee]

Originally posted by QuikSand
So, am I hearing that it would be a higher priority to get a top rookie WR than a top rookie center? If we made a maneuver to get both the DE and WR, that probably means re-signing Cicci to be our reserve C, and going with our free agent Chuck Drake for this year and perhaps beyond. Is that an acceptable situation, in order to acquire a starting-caliber receiver?

I'm not sure as of yet. KNowing Fritz's propensity to run it up the gut, I think a quality center at least needs to be included for consideration.

If this were my team and my team alone, (without looking at players) I would probably shoot for a C and a DT/DE. However, Fritz and I have a difference of philosophy regarding drafting WR's.

Let me look at the files and I'll offer my input.

[Buzzbee]

Originally posted by QuikSand
I'm having trouble sending the file update... it just hangs when I try to upload. Sorry, I'll keep trying.
QS - Ever have any luck with the upload? It would be a lot easier and quicker to review an updated file.

If still having problems, no worries. Just thought I'd ask since I saw you were online.

[Fritz]

Again, I can't see the players (until morning). My thought on the WR is that it takes a few years for them to develop, and we will be losing players at that position the next two seasons.

Honestly, I am not to worried about what we pick up. My feeling is that the first team O is already on roster, so everything else is depth/development.

[cuervo72]

Originally posted by QuikSand
On a metagame level... what do we make of WR Al Hartzell? This guys is clearly cut from a different cloth than most others in the draft-- has great ratings in a few areas, and dirt in the rest.

My money says that he gets a lot better over time... and possibly develops into a starting-level player.

Not lobbying for us to take him, just trying to notice some of the scenery along the way. He's an odd player... sort of liike our OT Grolsko was when we took him. Just doesn't look quite like the rest of them.

Is this the 6'5" guy out of Navy (I have the files at work but not at home)? If it is, he caught my eye too, very intruiguing. I thought of bringing him up but thought he might be a little TOO odd. But if we don't go WR with 2nd round, and he's still around later...

As for the GroupThink exercise...I'm enjoying this too, being involved but not having to concentrate on everything. Bouncing ideas off of others. It's also a good learning experience. Very different from doing my own dynasty, where I am talking to Buzzbee and the wall :D

edit: Just kidding, I know there are other strong supporters in that thread!

[Buzzbee]

Originally posted by cuervo72
Very different from doing my own dynasty, where I am talking to Buzzbee and the wall :D

You mean there is a difference?

[cuervo72]

Originally posted by Buzzbee
You mean there is a difference?

One is denser than the other :D

[Buzzbee]

Ok - I've reviewed the files. Man, this is no fun.

My heart says to take either C Kenneth Alston or C Glen Frederick. I think either one of these guys would be a solid addition to the team, and would probably be contributors by the end of the season.

However, if we sign Cicci, which is very possible, we'll have two serviceable centers, albeit not good enough to fill Winter's shoes. Thus drafting a center first isn't as much of a priority. Also, my heart says to go with Glen Frederick since he is a Tech grad.

My head says draft WR Daryl Anunson. We only have 3 WR's under contract, so this IS a need position. He is, based on our scouts view, a head above the other receivers. He also gives us a little depth at PR/KR since McNair and Duran are really the only ones we have.

My head also says that there is a little bit of depth a Center in the draft, and a run on Centers hasn't begun.

Damn my brain!! It tells me to do what I don't want to do. Agree with Fritz.

(There's some QOTM material!)

And to cloudy the waters a little more, I offer up OLB Rico "Suave" Sinclair as an alternative to NT Sam Upshaw. He doesn't give us the depth at DT, but DAMN I like all the red. His leadership is 68, which might put him in a leadership role (not sure with our free agent signings where we are on that). If we are drafting a "DE", then he is worth consideration.

[Buzzbee]

Originally posted by cuervo72
One is denser than the other :D

I've been called thick-headed before, but never brick-headed. :D

[Buzzbee]

So to summarize, I think it would probably be a smart play to draft the WR Anunson and hope a center falls to the second round.

If we trade up, then I can certainly live with WR Anunson first and either Alston or Frederick or Upshaw or Sinclair with the second pick.

[Buzzbee]

If I had to pick between C or "DE", I'd probably go with DE, since it IS a difficult position to fill.

Man, those Centers look so darn talented too.

[cuervo72]

Hmm, there are a lot of Sinclairs in this game!

[Buzzbee]

Originally posted by cuervo72
Hmm, there are a lot of Sinclairs in this game!

Yeah, it reminds me of an old Letterman top ten when Dennis Johnson, Magic Johnson, Larry Johnson, and several others named Johnson were playing. The top ten was something like Top Ten slogans refused by the NBA. My favorite was "NBA - Come see our Johnsons."

[QuikSand]

Trying the file update again... #1 of 2

[Fritz]

Looking at players

I like WR Anunson, and he would be of immediated use as a complement to Duran. If we want him, now is the time.

I like both the centers, and could build a line for many years around Alston.

Where we are, I would take C Alston now. If Frederick Dropped I would take him as well and play one or both out of position. This would give us the type of middle to deal with the best D-lines.

Of course our D might have other thoughts on player priority.

[QuikSand]

Looks like it's working now - sorry for the inconvenience before, I don't know why this wouldn't work for me yesterday...

#2 of 2

[Fritz]

To be honest, in a solo game I would be all over

WILB Corwin Fincher

[QuikSand]

I can confirm that Niagara Falls is willing to move down in the trade I described earlier - we'd get pick #36 in the early 2nd round, in exchange for our picks at the end of rounds 2 and 3. With picks at #31 and #36, we'd almost certainly get two of our target players.


Does anyone thinkg that any of these guys would be there for us at #63? The DT and WR I sincerely douubt, but the centers? It's a weird position in FOF... I guess it's possible that one or both centers could slide to us there. But I'd hate to take the chance and then miss out, and end up with a reach pick at 2 and 3 rather than getting a potential impact player by trading up.

However, if we decided that (a) we wanted to trade to get a center and (b) we were flexible on which center to take, then perhaps we let the draft go, and only make the move when one of them goes off the board. If that's appreciably later than pick #36, the cost of trading up might decrease a bit - we might get to keep our 3rd round pick. (I could do the same thing with all three "target" players in mind... and once two are gone, we initiate the trade)

That seems like the best course of action to me - but we need to decide whether we want the WR (in which case we probably just trade up and take him, or even take him right now) or a C. If we have flexibility, we can probably get a better "price" on the trade.

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by cuervo72
Is this the 6'5" guy out of Navy (I have the files at work but not at home)? If it is, he caught my eye too, very intruiguing. I thought of bringing him up but thought he might be a little TOO odd. But if we don't go WR with 2nd round, and he's still around later...

Yes, Hartzell is a weird case. He is 6'5", 231 lbs - pretty huge for a receiver. And his ratings check in as follows:

AvDrops - 15/32
GetDF - 9/11
RteRun - 5/11
...nothing to see here so far...
3rdDown - 78/94
BigPlay - 100
...now we're talking...
Courage - 0
Adjust - 23/47
AvFumb - 48/96
PuntR - 13/16
KickR - 75/89
Endur - 74/89

Just what kind of player is this? It's a weird set of ratings, from a "real world" perspective... he can't get downfield, but he is a big pkay machine? Okay.

But from an in-game perspective, this guy just doesn't look like other players. He doesn't have the traditional mix of reds and greens in a fairly sensible order with one another. I'm thinking he's a special creation - very possibly created by the "masking" process that is hidden better than before, but definitely still exists. I say it's maybe 50/50 that some of those really lousy ratings will improve - maybe substantially - over time.

Just a thought... I'd be perfectly happy to just watch this kid from afar... but if he can get onto our roster with a 4th or 5th round pick, I'd be all over that, too.

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by Fritz
To be honest, in a solo game I would be all over

WILB Corwin Fincher

I think that we are finding with some alarming regularity that the "BPA" in a draft from TCY files is frequently a linebacker, at least from picks #20 to about #100. After that, maybe it's a RB - we've been seeing very usable backs sliding to the late rounds.

LB Fincher looks wonderful, but look at Otis Mitchell (a guy we got after last year's draft...) and the guy we took ini round three of last year's draft. They seem to be everywhere. Fincher doesn't have the size to switch to anywhere but LB... were we have plenty of guys. So, he could be one more player in our mix of bright young talent at LB... and theoretically he could slide to an OLB position and give us some time at DE... but in terms of "need" I'm starting to think that locating promising young LBs is never going to be a problem in a TCY-to-FOF4 career.

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by Fritz
Of course our D might have other thoughts on player priority.

Might, yes.

[QuikSand]

If I'm hearing the OC correctly, he's saying that C Alston is his top choice. I'm thinking that we swing a trade to move to #36, get Alston there to go with DL Upshaw at #31... and we fill in two critical spots on the team. Our plan at WR would then be to keep going with our current staff, look for one or two useful players in this draft (and afterwards), and be open to a "value" veteran WR addition as needed down the road as well.

[albionmoonlight]

Mazatlan is willing to trade us the 2(1) pick in exchange for our second, fourth, and sixth round picks. I say we do it to make sure we get our two guys. (It also makes me realize what a good deal we had to trade up in round one. However, having looked at the DE from Clemson (whose name escapes me), I don't think that he was really what I wanted because he had endurance in the 40s.

Anyway, I would say lets draft the player to convert to the DE here and then the WR at the 2(1) spot.

As to who to draft for the DE spot, here are my thoughts:


Rico Sinclair is interesting. I like that his real weaknesses are in coverage because those will not apply once he is converted. I have two issues with him, though. First, his endurance is poor. Second, is 252 too light to convert to DE? We don't really need another OLB on the team, even if he is playing out of position.

Upshaw's run defense is poor--not something ideal in someone who should become our every down DE in the future. However, I cannot ignore his freak-like pass rush ability. And, though it probably does not matter in a meta sense, it makes sense to have a guy at 280 playing DE.

Even if Upshaw keeps the weak ratings at run defense, he will still be (at worse) a heck of a pass rusher from the DE spot. Since we seem to be a sack/turnover based defense, we need guys like him.

Therefore, I vote for drafting Upshaw with this pick, trading Mazlatan for the 2(1) pick, and drafting the WR (whose name escapes me) with the 2(1) pick.

[albionmoonlight]

I see that there was action while I was making my post.

If we get Upshaw here, then I am happy with however the O wants to get the C or WR.

And I would love to pick up Hartzell as a experiment late.

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by albionmoonlight
As to who to draft for the DE spot, here are my thoughts:


Rico Sinclair is interesting. I like that his real weaknesses are in coverage because those will not apply once he is converted. I have two issues with him, though. First, his endurance is poor. Second, is 252 too light to convert to DE? We don't really need another OLB on the team, even if he is playing out of position.

Upshaw's run defense is poor--not something ideal in someone who should become our every down DE in the future. However, I cannot ignore his freak-like pass rush ability. And, though it probably does not matter in a meta sense, it makes sense to have a guy at 280 playing DE.

There's one very large difference between these two guys. Sinclair at 252 lbs CANNOT move to DE - he can be slotted there, but we'd still have to carry a "body" at the DE position, and Sinclair wouuld have to remain a LB, period.

Upton is the perfect weight to actually switch to DE. I'm not promosing that we keep him at DT and use him at DE - I am proposinng that we draft him, fully intending him to actually switch positions and be forever listed as a DE. He is the ideal weight (around 280-285, i think) and I suspcet our scout will indicate that he would make a painless transition. That's what I like about Upton... we've already got plenty of solid OLB who can be slotted at DE if we really needed it... Upton is a guy who will become a DE, period.

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by albionmoonlight
I see that there was action while I was making my post.


No, just discussion... nothing's been done yet. But I am smelling an emergeing consensus.

[cuervo72]

I'm all for trading up, but agree that Fritz should have the say over if we pick a C/WR with the offense pick.

Just wondering - what is the conract difference between 1(31) and 2(1)? I'm assuming the 1st rounder would have an extra year, so we'd want to lock up the DE (which is what we're talking anyway, I'm just talking through the logic)?

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by albionmoonlight
Mazatlan is willing to trade us the 2(1) pick in exchange for our second, fourth, and sixth round picks.

I like that better than leaving things to chance. Sixth round picks are for pansies anyway.

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by cuervo72
Just wondering - what is the conract difference between 1(31) and 2(1)? I'm assuming the 1st rounder would have an extra year, so we'd want to lock up the DE (which is what we're talking anyway, I'm just talking through the logic)?

I have found this to be a gradual difference, not a stark and predictable one. I have taken late first rounders and seen them sign four year deals - much like we expect from 2nd rounders. I don't think there's a hard and fast rule in place.

[cuervo72]

Hmm, I wonder if the agent is a small factor in it then (they have to have some purpose, right? :) ).

[QuikSand]

2002 Draft, continued

After some helpful deliberation, the die is cast. We move up to grab two impact players here – both of whom fill important team needs:


31. Kitty Hawk - Upshaw, Sam, DT, Northwestern

32. Fort Knox - Troxler, Isaac, RB, Miami, Florida

33. Kitty Hawk - Alston, Kenneth, C, Boise State

34. Ocean City - Beeman, Chester, RB, Ohio State
35. Niagara Falls - Joyner, Scottie, DE, Louisville
36. Thunder Bay - Burns, Cornell, S, Ohio State
37. Fort Wayne - Anunson, Daryl, WR, Miami, Ohio
38. Wheeling - Sinclair, Rico, OLB, Syracuse
39. Champaign - Fincher, Corwin, ILB, Georgia
40. Little Rock - Covington, Derek, OLB, Rice
41. Ypsilanti - White, Barry, QB, Kansas
42. Providence - Chubick, Sean, G, North Texas
43. Norfolk - Darquea, Bernie, S, Colorado
44. Tijuana - Myers, Edward, T, Virginia
45. Sacramento - Galloway, Bucky, ILB, Georgia Tech
46. Bermuda - Smilanich, Jay, DT, Michigan
47. Athens - Garrett, Jeremy, QB, Louisiana - Monroe
48. Texarkana - Brooks, Geoff, QB, Miami, Ohio
49. Pensacola - Cook, Toby, QB, Texas
50. Napa Valley - Pape, Otis, WR, Tennessee
51. Key West - Frederick, Glen, C, Georgia Tech
52. Manhattan - Jarvis, Travis, TE, Georgia
53. Death Valley - Webster, Teddy, G, Maryland
54. Puget Sound - Trevino, Maurice, OLB, Ohio State
55. Louisville - Hoffman, Leland, CB, Northwestern
56. Little Rock - Lynn, Broderick, CB, Notre Dame
57. Hawk Mountain - McNeil, Lawrence, C, Kansas
58. Memphis - Montgomery, Jermaine, G, Notre Dame
59. Cheyenne - Bradley, Lionel, T, Georgia Tech
60. Lake Erie - Dawkins, Leland, DT, Virginia
61. Nashua - Jefferson, Brian, DE, Brigham Young
62. Sault Ste. Marie - Powell, Justin, S, Georgia Tech
63. Mazatlan - Delgado, Dusty, S, Florida
64. Fort Knox - Young, Les, DE, Rice
65. Mazatlan - Jennings, Luke, S, Texas A&M
66. Ocean City - Kournikova, Harris, OLB, New Mexico
68. Thunder Bay - Guliford, Trevor, RB, Syracuse
69. Fort Wayne - Chabala, Fred, DE, Boston College
70. Wheeling - Lindsay, Antoine, OLB, Georgia Tech
71. Champaign - Myers, Adrian, DE, Washington
72. Tulsa - Garner, Broderick, G, UCLA
73. Ypsilanti - Lehr, Phil, OLB, Miami, Ohio
74. Providence - Ward, Blake, CB, Auburn
75. Norfolk - Cole, Sherman, CB, Virginia Tech
76. Tijuana - Spears, Kelly, TE, Southern California
77. Sacramento - Zimmerman, Preston, CB, Kansas
78. Bermuda - Stone, Jon, DT, Washington State
79. Athens - Lane, Vernon, OLB, Penn State
80. Texarkana - Phillips, Darrell, T, Marshall
81. Pensacola - Ogden, Richie, WR, Buffalo
82. Napa Valley - Bushon, Jermaine, S, Tulane
83. Key West - Bello, Ethan, G, Florida
84. Manhattan - Rigby, Dana, WR, Notre Dame
85. Death Valley - Bocaling, Earl, ILB, South Carolina
86. Puget Sound - Bruce, Myron, CB, UCLA
87. Louisville - McCarthy, Al, S, Georgia
88. Little Rock - Hartzell, Al, WR, Navy
89. Hawk Mountain - Mueller, Myron, G, Pittsburgh
90. Memphis - Summers, Morris, S, Oklahoma
91. Cheyenne - Hancock, Nathan, G, Clemson
92. Lake Erie - Struble, Travis, DT, Texas Christian
93. Nashua - Norton, Jumbo, TE, Wake Forest
94. Sault Ste. Marie - Branch, Ernie, T, Miami, Florida


And this brings us to our selection at the end of round three…

[QuikSand]

Mid-draft file update #1

[QuikSand]

#2 of 2

[Fritz]

Originally posted by QuikSand
Yes, Hartzell is a weird case. He is 6'5", 231 lbs - pretty huge for a receiver. And his ratings check in as follows:

AvDrops - 15/32
GetDF - 9/11
RteRun - 5/11
...nothing to see here so far...
3rdDown - 78/94
BigPlay - 100
...now we're talking...
Courage - 0
Adjust - 23/47
AvFumb - 48/96
PuntR - 13/16
KickR - 75/89
Endur - 74/89

Just what kind of player is this? It's a weird set of ratings, from a "real world" perspective... he can't get downfield, but he is a big pkay machine? Okay.


He looks like one of those tweener WR/TEs.

[QuikSand]

In the third round, we have some options. As usual, there’s a LB begging to be taken – Alvin Van Pelt of Syracuse looks good to me, but that’s no surprise at any level.

Weirdo WR Al Hartzell was snapped up just a few picks before us by Little Rock – but I want to try to watch him, as I’ve shared my predictions about his bright future. The remainders at WR don’t seem overwhelming – but perhaps our OC sees someone with an intriguing combination of middling ratings that suits his needs. (What do we make of Julio Curtis?)

There are a couple of fullbacks (as usual) who look good – but I’m not sure what we’d do with them.

RB Eric Mixon looks like he’d make a good utility back, in the mold of Rob Strong… but I don’t know that we need him. If he switched to WR, would he be better than the current crop of rookie receivers? (at 218 lbs, I think he’s a little to heavy for the switch) But when we are trawling the post-draft waters for a 5th or 6th WR, let’s not forget the RBs who are still hanging around – some of these guys have some receiving skills.

Safety Alex Hastings shows no proclivity to help in the running game, but has good coverage skills. How might we use a guy like him?

Some thoughts… I don’t see a slam dunk pick here.

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by Fritz
He looks like one of those tweener WR/TEs.

Maybe Mikhael Ricks
Hovers between tight and split
But he returns kicks

[cuervo72]

Well, he's off the board now anyway (Little Rock).

We should follow this guy:

41. Ypsilanti - White, Barry, QB, Kansas

[cuervo72]

Originally posted by QuikSand
Maybe Mikhael Ricks
Hovers between tight and split
But he returns kicks

Did you just finish reading TMQ??

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by cuervo72
Well, he's off the board now anyway (Little Rock).

We should follow this guy:

41. Ypsilanti - White, Barry, QB, Kansas

Any particular reason why? (Just asking) His curiously strong underneath game? His high "avoid int" rating?

[cuervo72]

Originally posted by QuikSand
Any particular reason why? (Just asking) His curiously strong underneath game? His high "avoid int" rating?

His bass, sultry tones and smoothness with the ladies.

BTW - you nailed it on UPshaw - a move to RDE upped him to 33/63, makes him 9/40 on the run, 24/100 on the pass and 86 for PR Strength.

[Fritz]

We could look at WR Lester Shores as a STer who may dev into something.

Stephen Ellis should become a good slot/3rd down type.

J.C. Moore could be a utility back in a season


ATTENTION

If we can take a scorpio, I want SE Chad Jefferson. He would be a reach with the current pick, but I promise he will be a decent stats guy and could have a decent impact as a career reserve. Trust me.

Otis Lewis and J.R. Leslie are STers who would fit in as a #4/5 type.

[Fritz]

talent wise, none of the QBs are a good enough fit to take this early. I have my eye on a couple for later, perhaps after the draft.

[Fritz]

COnsider the following O-Linemen

C Phillip Cote* - the best of the lot. Could play some mean LG for us.
C Frankie Thornton
LG Ryan Pritchett
LT Chuck Coates
LT Damon Sonntag

[cuervo72]

These names....I just spotted SS Roman Holliday.

Cote would be strong, but he conflicts with Tim Johns, so he's out.

[Fritz]

Originally posted by cuervo72
Cote would be strong, but he conflicts with Tim Johns, so he's out.

fuck'em then

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by Fritz
ATTENTION

If we can take a scorpio, I want SE Chad Jefferson. He would be a reach with the current pick, but I promise he will be a decent stats guy and could have a decent impact as a career reserve. Trust me.

Okay, I'll bite. We probably don't have to take him here - he's about 20th on the liist of remaining WRs.

But I'm intrigued... I assume you're attracted by is high ratings in 3rd down receiving and big play receiving. Both certainly are impressive, I'll agree.

But do you think this guy will get passes thrown his way? A zero in route running suggests (to me) otherwise. Do you have deeper insight?

[QuikSand]

Regrettably, CB Kenyon Thurman is a chemistry mismatch... otherwise his combination of skills might have made him a future nickelback prospect.

[QuikSand]

As a refresher… since I keep looking back to this…

The four affinity groups are:
Aries, Gemini, Scorpio
Sagittarius, Leo, Virgo
Pisces, Taurus, Cancer
Aquarius, Libra, Capricorn
(affinity does not apply within the same sign)

And the six pairs of opposed signs are:
Aries - Aquarius
Taurus - Libra
Gemini - Virgo
Scorpio - Pisces
Capricorn - Leo
Cancer - Sagittarius


And our CURRENT position leaders are:


FB - Kowalski - Aquarius - Backfield Leader
TE - Diana - Taurus - Receivers Leader
LT - Johns - Aquarius - Offensive Line Leader
LDE - Littlejohn - Leo - Defensive Front Leader
SS - Hawkins - Cancer - Secondary Leader

[cuervo72]

Howabout SS Ernest Feusse? We need to fill at safety, and the guy could be a special teams demon. Might be too early for it, but there's not a whole lot else here. Hastings might fit the bill too, looks to be much stronger on coverage. Hmm, Feusse might be a washout in the other categories eventually, doesn't stand out anywhere else.

Can we trade down for a 4 and 5? :D

[albionmoonlight]

I think we are set with the front seven.

If we have any needs on D, it is secondary depth. We have been very lucky the last two years and have not had much injury back there. If we were to lose a front line guy to a major injury, it would be nice to have someone else to plug in for depth.

However, I feel that the D is pretty much set--depth is only a suggestion, not a priority.

Perhaps with these last few picks, we should be taking some chances. Picking guys (regardless of position) that Q thinks have some breakout potential?

Just a thought.

[Buzzbee]

WOW!! I missed quite a bit. Good job you guys. Looks like we have some real impact players and managed our draft well.

In general, I think we need at least one WR and probably two. Also I agree with Albion that secondary depth is important too. Hawkins and Reynolds are both near the end of contracts (and Hawkins may be near retirement). I don't think there is much talent left that can develop into a bona fide starter, but we could possibly develop a contributor like Duran or Perry.

{EDIT: Also, with these picks it might be a good idea to focus on chemistry guys, since there isn't a lot of dropoff in talent. Perhaps the chemistry will help the players develop faster, reach greater potential, and have better on field performance than they otherwise would.}

[Buzzbee]

Originally posted by cuervo72
These names....I just spotted SS Roman Holliday.

Cote would be strong, but he conflicts with Tim Johns, so he's out.

Damn. Cote woulda been a steal, too.

[Fritz]

Originally posted by QuikSand
Okay, I'll bite. We probably don't have to take him here - he's about 20th on the liist of remaining WRs.

But I'm intrigued... I assume you're attracted by is high ratings in 3rd down receiving and big play receiving. Both certainly are impressive, I'll agree.

But do you think this guy will get passes thrown his way? A zero in route running suggests (to me) otherwise. Do you have deeper insight?

In a home career I picked up a guy who was almost maxed in big play and almost nothing anywhere else. That player has been very effective in a reserve role and as a spot starter.

My hypothesis is that WR with a (near) maxed area can be useful, even when the rest of their skills are almost nil.

The place where we will need to draft makes my theory low risk.

[cuervo72]

Originally posted by Buzzbee

{EDIT: Also, with these picks it might be a good idea to focus on chemistry guys, since there isn't a lot of dropoff in talent. Perhaps the chemistry will help the players develop faster, reach greater potential, and have better on field performance than they otherwise would.}

I've been wondering about how strong the chemistry effect is. For my Tequilas career, which is still in it's first year, it looks to me (well, my scout) that overall in the draft I did much better than my counterparts, and the game previews always favor my matchups substantially (now, performance is another issue :) ). This despite only being able to draft 1/4 of the players. So if we can find an affinity, that would be a good tiebreaker.

edit: S Alex Hastings is a Taurus, and S Victor Long is a Pisces. Both should have an affinity with Ricky Hawkins.

double edit: S Bubba Berry is also a Pisces, and has decent hitter, INT, special teams ratings.