TPB HTML Look Familiar? [Archive] - Front Office Football Central

mrskippy

11-27-2003, 01:40 AM

Well, you can view source code of virtually any Web page. Many HTML books tell you to do this if you see a design element you like on another site.

I remember awhile back when I was asked to do a story on this lady's Web site, how it looked like a catalog site I had shopped at one time. It wasn't until later that I found out there are catalog/shopping cart templates out there that people use and can be modified to the webmasters liking.

Another time I asked a Web design expert at a hosting company (for another story) why so many e-tail sites look like Amazon.com, even when they aren't part of the Amazon family. In a nutshell, he told me that much of it has to do with Amazon's ease of use and how familiar people are with navigating the site.

Because the design elements/style can't really be copyrighted, Gary was basically able to use Brian's style sheets without any fear of recourse.

To put it another way ... look at phpBB, ikonboard, vBulletin, invision board, and the UBB (or whatever FOFC had before) and notice the similarities.

For the most part, the only thing you can really copyright on a Web site is content and any special technology.

Marmel

11-27-2003, 01:40 AM

Originally posted by sabotai
oh I'm sorry. I'm rephrase.

"My HTML schedule outputs were pretty much "inspired" from NFL.com though...but anally rape them with a rebar. :)"

Better?

Much better. Anal Raping is OK anytime of the year as far as I am concerned.

mrskippy

11-27-2003, 01:42 AM

Dola ... of course eBay did sue that BidBay company or whatever it was because it's name, logo and site layout were almost an exact ripoff of eBay. But that also was fairly intentional and that is what got that company in copyright trouble.

Marmel

11-27-2003, 01:43 AM

Originally posted by mrskippy
Dola ... of course eBay did sue that BidBay company or whatever it was because it's name, logo and site layout were almost an exact ripoff of eBay. But that also was fairly intentional and that is what got that company in copyright trouble.

How the fuck did you get allowed back here?

Arles

11-27-2003, 01:46 AM

Guys,we used an HTML generation program. The same one I used for TDCB, in fact. The sections were put in as Year Stats, Player Stats, Player Abilities, Salary information, Draft Picks and Injuries. And, the grids were spit out in that order.

While the content is similar (which is to be expected in any pro hoops game), the ordering of the stats, roster, rating system and salary content is different.

That said, there are some formatting similarities and we don't want to give the impression that this was intentional. Therefore, I will work with Gary to modify the team roster reports before our official Friday release using the same format I personally created for TPF.

HeavyReign

11-27-2003, 01:53 AM

Sorry Arlie,

We've never had a problem before but I'm not buying this one. The odds of such a coincidence are beyond low. I expect more from you guys.

sabotai

11-27-2003, 01:54 AM

mrskippy, to elaborate (and my bad for not doing so earlier...), when I implied that there were no templates, I was basically talking in this particular situation (In that HR coded the program to output the HTML, and that there isn't a general-purpose Basketball Sim HTML output template out there somewhere... :) ). Of course there are plenty of all-purpose template for people to use out there for certain things.

But then again, looking similar and looking almost exactly the same are two different things...

mrskippy

11-27-2003, 01:56 AM

I looked at the layouts of both. There are some subtle differences. But good to see that Arlie is making sure things are switched a little bit more to avoid any confusion.

That said it's probably legal and is common.

Just like http://www.amazon.com and http://www.bn.com or heck even http://www.walmart.com or http://www.kmart.com

On each of those e-tail sites you'll notice some subtle similarities and subtle differences.

Look at http://www.kanakaris.com (or cinemapop.com) ... the header and even some of the page elements are almost exactly like Amazon.com ... but the site has no affiliation with Amazon.

To see how easy it would be to ripoff Amazon's design for your own site ... just go to View - Source. A proficient HTML could use Amazon.com for their porn store.

JeeberD

11-27-2003, 02:00 AM

Originally posted by Marmel
How the fuck did you get allowed back here?

He has pics of SD after he abandoned the patriotic panties...

Marmel

11-27-2003, 02:01 AM

Originally posted by JeeberD
He has pics of SD after he abandoned the patriotic panties...

Must be. He always knows how to ruin a good thread with his incessant bullshit.

JeeberD

11-27-2003, 02:03 AM

I heart Marmel... :D

But not in the tender way that Subby does...

mrskippy

11-27-2003, 02:08 AM

1 - What did HR and Gary use to code their respective games? C++ or VB?

2 - What databases are they using? Access?

I mean if you use the same coding software and database, it's not to difficult to create a similar database and "spreadsheet" in each game.

I looked at each of the HTML exports ... Arlie's right ... some stuff is shifted.

I don't think this was intentional to be mean. I'm sure Gary just did what software companies have been doing for years. *cough* Bill *cough* *cough* Gates.

HeavyReign

11-27-2003, 02:09 AM

Alright, I talked to Arlie about this and am satisfied that it will be properly addressed.

druez

11-27-2003, 02:12 AM

There is a reason that you can not copyright screen layouts on webpages. THere are only so many ways you can show your data on screen.

So, with that said go look at all the standings site on the internet for the various sports. They are all broken down into tables "OH MY" they all show wins, losses, ties, winning % etc. Holy crap its unbelievable they all show the same stats? They all look similiar.

How would you like someone to lay out the data you saw?

Would you like them to put it all diagnol across the screen? Or how about rainbow color. Beings that every site that was made by frontpage on the internet looks the same, this was just about the dumbest post I've ever seen.

Now please stop wasting all of our time and suck on this can of STFU.

mrskippy

11-27-2003, 02:16 AM

But you do realize HR, that other than hating Gary and 400 Software for the rest of your life, you probably couldn't have done much more.

After all, Gary was only in a league. He didn't have your source code for FBB. He only had the source code for the HTML output. And it is just basic HTML (no Java, Flash, CGI, PHP or anything like that). Nothing special.

And even if he had your code, unless you made him sign an NDA (something Apple failed to have Bill Gates do) you'd be as shit up a creek as Jobs and Wozniak.

I think it's safe to say that Gary saw some quality HTML code and ran with it. And as I said, people do that everyday on the Internet ... including big business.

sabotai

11-27-2003, 02:24 AM

Nice to see a .400 fanboy has made his way over here... :rolleyes:

Damn things are like cockroaches...or just cocks. Either one.

JeeberD

11-27-2003, 02:24 AM

Originally posted by druez
There is a reason that you can not copyright screen layouts on webpages. THere are only so many ways you can show your data on screen.

Now please stop wasting all of our time and suck on this can of STFU.

Dude, did you even look at the layouts? Aside from abilities and stats switched around just about everything is in the same place on the page and formatted in the same manner. So out of nine different tables seven of them are in the exact same spot.

You can't even compare this to a standings table on a sports site. You were exactly right there, there are only so many ways you can display standings. But these two screens are so similair it's spooky.

GoldenEagle

11-27-2003, 02:25 AM

Originally posted by druez
There is a reason that you can not copyright screen layouts on webpages. THere are only so many ways you can show your data on screen.

So, with that said go look at all the standings site on the internet for the various sports. They are all broken down into tables "OH MY" they all show wins, losses, ties, winning % etc. Holy crap its unbelievable they all show the same stats? They all look similiar.

How would you like someone to lay out the data you saw?

Would you like them to put it all diagnol across the screen? Or how about rainbow color. Beings that every site that was made by frontpage on the internet looks the same, this was just about the dumbest post I've ever seen.

Now please stop wasting all of our time and suck on this can of STFU.

Go back to where you came from fanboy.

druez

11-27-2003, 02:26 AM

Nothing to do with being a fanboy. I think both screens look like shit if you ask me. Its pretty obvious they are both very generic with almost zero though or graphics put into them.

I mean if they were custom designed to look cool, with nice graphics etc that is one thing. But both pages are just basic tables, i mean come on lets be real here.

Daimyo

11-27-2003, 02:27 AM

This is the company that is supposed to make a better football sim than FOF? This isn't surprising though. When the .400 site originally opened it was a direct rip off of a diablo 2 site right down to several links still pointing to the original ripped off site.

Why exactly do people have so much confidence in .400?

The_herd

11-27-2003, 02:27 AM

Originally posted by druez
....this was just about the dumbest post I've ever seen.

Now please stop wasting all of our time and suck on this can of STFU.

And your post is bursting with intellect. Thank your for your insight. .400 fanboys are always welcome here.

Daimyo

11-27-2003, 02:29 AM

Originally posted by druez
Nothing to do with being a fanboy. I think both screens look like shit if you ask me. Its pretty obvious they are both very generic with almost zero though or graphics put into them

You don't thnk its odd that the exact same information is presented in the exact same order and layed out exactly the same? Did you even look at both pages closely?

Swaggs

11-27-2003, 02:34 AM

Disturbing and disappointing...

mrskippy

11-27-2003, 02:46 AM

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/players/3119/

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3119

http://www.sportsline.com/nba/players/playerpage/23333

http://www.foxsports.com/named/FS/NBA/player?statsId=3119

Most sports sites get their data from STATS Inc., as you can see three of the four above used ID 3119 (Peja). And while the page design is different, the order of the stats is fairly identical.

To go apeshit over the order of the stats is nuts.

Sure the look and feel are similar. I think I've addressed how common that is on the Web and showed major examples.

That leaves us with stats. Take a look at how they are presented for the real NBA. Fairly standard.

If the wheel isn't broke, why fix it.

That said, perhaps Arlie/Gary will work together and pull a fast one on Brian ... making it look like what you'd see on ESPN. After all ... 400 is top notch at look/feel.

As for the 400 site being an exact rip of the Diablo site. That ain't hard to do. If I wanted I could create my own site using this site as a template. The source code is free for the taking.

druez

11-27-2003, 02:48 AM

For the record, I love FOF football as you can read my review on

www.footballology.com at the video game section. I've bought every game Jim has made and will continue to do so. Fact is Total Pro Basketball is a better product then Fast Brake in my opinion. It feels more professional.

I wouldn't really claim the html code if I was either author, because you can take front page and create the same shit in about 10 minutes.

HeavyReign

11-27-2003, 02:51 AM

Originally posted by mrskippy
But you do realize HR, that other than hating Gary and 400 Software for the rest of your life, you probably couldn't have done much more.

After all, Gary was only in a league. He didn't have your source code for FBB. He only had the source code for the HTML output. And it is just basic HTML (no Java, Flash, CGI, PHP or anything like that). Nothing special.

And even if he had your code, unless you made him sign an NDA (something Apple failed to have Bill Gates do) you'd be as shit up a creek as Jobs and Wozniak.

I think it's safe to say that Gary saw some quality HTML code and ran with it. And as I said, people do that everyday on the Internet ... including big business.

Never said there would necessarily be a legal issue. My feeling was more one of disappointment given that I had never hesitated to help Gary questions he had in the past even though he was working on a potentially competing product. Anyway, I have a pretty good understanding of what happened and it will be addressed.

sabotai

11-27-2003, 02:53 AM

It's so great to have mrskippy back. Ain't it!? ;)

mrskippy

11-27-2003, 02:55 AM

Well said druez ...

I purchased both Brian's FBB and now Gary's TPB, not to mention JSB (and the pre-order of Courtside). I purchased Brian's FBCB and Arlie's CAD and TDCB. I purchased FOF and will purchase TPF. I purchased OOTP and likely will purchase Total Pro Baseball (now that Shaun has fixed the things I didn't like about Puresim).

One things that sets 400 and OOTP apart is the slick, professional interfaces of their games.

Some of the table headers on ESPN look like the table headers on the HTML output from these games. And basically ... the [TABLE] command is the secret ingredient to the HTML output.

mrskippy

11-27-2003, 03:03 AM

Brian ...

Did you give Gary some coding help on exporting HTML? Obviously, it's easy to get the exported HTML source code. Perhaps you should have come to a mutual agreement that while you helped him with the exporting that he would make his exported HTML look different.

What exactly do you want Gary to change? Obviously the order of the stats itself is fairly routine, as I showed in my professional examples above. The only difference would have to be the design/style ... meaning that he could easily grab the ESPN, stats.inc source code, change it around a bit and have some pretty snazzy HTML.

HeavyReign

11-27-2003, 03:13 AM

Mrskippy, it has been addressed. I wouldn't give it anymore thought.

mrskippy

11-27-2003, 03:22 AM

Good to hear.

Of course ... I'll still see the stats in the correct order right? All that will change is the layout/design, not what stat and stuff appear?

BTW Can someone post HTML output from TDCB, CAD, OOTP, and other text-sims. Just to see the differences ... if any.

rexallllsc

11-27-2003, 05:35 AM

Originally posted by Daimyo
This is the company that is supposed to make a better football sim than FOF? This isn't surprising though. When the .400 site originally opened it was a direct rip off of a diablo 2 site right down to several links still pointing to the original ripped off site.

Why exactly do people have so much confidence in .400?

Ouch.

Subby

11-27-2003, 08:57 AM

Honestly - has someone ever posted more and said less that mrs kippy?

SirFozzie

11-27-2003, 09:03 AM

Originally posted by Subby
Honestly - has someone ever posted more and said less that mrs kippy?

I can think of several people.

(edited to remove a houlier-then-thou that I didn't really mean)

FloridaFringe

11-27-2003, 09:39 AM

Begin Rant.

Round of applause for Mr Skippy in his ability to withstand the verbal abuse and attempts at drawing him into a flame war. This thread has nothing to do with his return to FOFC yet many people have done their best to threadjack in order to achieve nothing more than to start a fight. Either stay on topic or leave it alone. Maybe if we allow him to discuss the issues at hand then the other bullshit wont rear it's ugly head and gets him in trouble, again. Nice job Mr Skippy for not caving in to the bullies and walking away instead.

Also, can the word "Fanboy" be used any more than on this board? I find it ironic that the one forum board that throws that word around more so than anywhere else is actually chalk full of fanboys themselves. Not necessarily fanboys for the FOF series, although that might be acceptable, but rather fanboys for the board itself. People are so quick to label others around here that it really takes a lot away from the quality of the board.

End Rant.

SirFozzie

11-27-2003, 09:42 AM

If the fanboy shoe fits, wear it.

Seriously, you expect us to not fire back after being told, somewhat sophmorically to "Suck a can of STFU"?

And Skippy has a reputation here. Even if it's changed he's got to live with it.

FloridaFringe

11-27-2003, 09:53 AM

If the fanboy shoe fits, wear it.

I agree. However, I haven't seen the shoe fit many people yet the label comes out rather quickly without merit more often than not.

Seriously, you expect us to not fire back after being told, somewhat sophmorically to "Suck a can of STFU"?

I agree again. However, does this statement deserve a "fanboy" retaliation?

And Skippy has a reputation here. Even if it's changed he's got to live with it.

I agree once again. However, living with it and being picked on because of it are two completely different things. It takes a better person to allow others to grow and change than it does to simply bully them around.

Dutch

11-27-2003, 10:07 AM

Florida Fringe, didn't you start in this thread by bashing people for threadjacking for arguments sake? :)

FloridaFringe

11-27-2003, 10:14 AM

You are correct Dutch. I will end my remarks as I should have done once I said "End Rant". Sorry.

Subby

11-27-2003, 10:52 AM

Originally posted by SirFozzie
I can think of several people.

(edited to remove a houlier-then-thou that I didn't really mean)
It would have been funnier if you had just posted:

Subby.

:cool:

Buccaneer

11-27-2003, 10:57 AM

The most disappointing thing is that a few folks here had to qoute posts from skippy. :mad:

druez

11-27-2003, 11:08 AM

You guys are talking out your ass. 400 developments has a development "team" a couple of different people could of wrote the html export code and I have no clue who did, so you shouldn't assume that gary did it.

As I said before, why anyone would claim the most generic form of tables as their own is beyond me. If you ask me looking at the game Fast Break, accross the top he has a file button, just like I have in MS Word, Excel, and IE. OMFG how can this be he is copying it.

Beings that TPB has custom made buttons in game and the look and feel of the basketball game itself is totally different, how you come to these conclussions is beyond me.

In a world full of fanboy idiots, I think I might of stumbled on the biggest nest of them all.

Sweed

11-27-2003, 11:26 AM

I own and play fof and love it. I will be buying tpf and have oopt. I haven't bought tpb mostly because I doubt I would have time to play it. In the past I've palyed strat bsbll bsktbll and ftball, and the same for haffner games. I am simply a fan of a good sports sim.

Having said all that at least imho this isn't a big issue. I like some others here think that there are only so many good ways to put these things in a table and they all pretty much look alike to me. Whether it's Madden vs ESPN (former sega 2k whatever) or the two games being compared here there stat screens are just simply going to look alike.

I'm not a writer or programmer or anything like that perhaps if I were I'd feel differently but to this average everyday gamer this really isn't an issue.

My 2 cents.

Buccaneer

11-27-2003, 11:35 AM

Could some post a stat sheet comparing the old Football Mogul with FOF? I do believe that one must present information uniquely but with all football games, there is a set core of stats that must be presented and they will be the same for every game.

SirFozzie

11-27-2003, 11:57 AM

Originally posted by druez
In a world full of fanboy idiots, I think I might of stumbled on the biggest nest of them all.

I believe the operative phrase is..

"Pot? This is Kettle. YOU ARE BLACK"

Buccaneer

11-27-2003, 12:16 PM

Despite my love for OOTP and the potential for fun playing TPF, I have not and will not spend any time on those boards. I am so glad that SD duplicates his 400/OOTPd posts here.

korme

11-27-2003, 12:38 PM

skippy- shut up already.

SirFozzie

11-27-2003, 12:41 PM

Um RPI.. I hate to say this, but they were allowing some of the preorder folks to buy the game early and download it, IIRC

Dutch

11-27-2003, 12:42 PM

In a world full of fanboy idiots, I think I might of stumbled on the biggest nest of them all.

How many careers and seasons of TPB have you enjoyes so far to make you such a huge fanboy of that game?

SirFozzie

11-27-2003, 12:43 PM

Looking at their forum, I'm glad that I held off on this one, too. There are a couple huge showstopping bugs so far. I'm sure the game will be fine, once patched, but it's kinda disquieting how fast people are reporting these things.

RPI-Fan

11-27-2003, 12:51 PM

Based on this HTML fiasco and the (apparantly) extremely buggy product that .400 studies released (AGAIN!) I'm not going to even consider getting TPB at any point. Their service and support is just ridiculous.

The makers of TPB should take a hint from HR's customer support, not designs from his game.

SirFozzie

11-27-2003, 12:59 PM

RPI:

I wish nothing for the best for Arlie, Joe, Adam Ryland and all the folks over there. I'm not going to jump down their throat, for the HTML or this. A lot depends on how the game looks once the inevitable first week or 2nd week patch comes out.

I mean, FOF2004 had plenty of tweaks in its first patch, which was about the same time frame.

BUT...

I'm pretty sure they know what's riding on this one.

mrskippy

11-27-2003, 01:07 PM

RPI-Fan,

Let me see here. The game isn't even officially released yet. Those who got in on the early release should have expected some potential early problems.

As for the bugs, Gary quickly went into patch mode and released the first patch last night. That's impressive, given the holiday weekend.

What's even more impressive is that it appears Gary is working though the holiday to attempt to quash the few remaining bugs and the HTML controversy, to get a top notch game out for the Friday evening release.

Joe, TC Dale, Arlie, and Gary spent time in the chat room yesterday afternoon and evening. They've been responding on the boards. That's pretty good support, given the holiday.

The only thing down right now is 400's official support e-mail and that's understandable, given that the person who gets those can't check the inbox right now. Again, given the timing, I think that's perfectly acceptable.

Sure there are bugs, but last I checked there were bugs in the recently release FOF and this is the FIFTH version. FOF has been around for years and Jim still hasn't released a perfectly bug free product.

With software like this, the beta team isn't going to catch everything until the game ends up on everyone's computer and we see the different errors that are possible.

RPI-Fan

11-27-2003, 01:07 PM

I guess I could wait a little while, BUT...

The problems that I'm seeing people talking about on their forums are engine-type stuff (somebody reported having a player go 427-427 on free throws, for example).

Not only do they have showstopping bugs (completely incorrect boxscores, players disappearing), from what I'm reading, the whole model seems to be a bit, off. I'll wait for more opinions before I really hammer this game, but I do know I won't be buying it. FBB is ALWAYS a compeltely playable game right from release, and the features it has work completely. Again, time will tell whether or not this game is actually quality. Even if it is, I can't imagine it being as tight as FBB.

I'll freely admit that I'm an FBB fanboy. But the reason is coz HR deserves it. If he released buggy products or stole people's designs, I wouldn't be nearly so defensive of his products.

But he doesn't do that, and .400 does.

Icy

11-27-2003, 01:07 PM

Lets see if i can learn from this, i will type it 100000 times, "i won't preorder a game in my whole life again, i won't preorder a game in my whole life again....."

By now i'm just try calm down and to not to think on it and just wait some days for fixes, at least i see them trying to aswer all the questions and fix all the issues as fast as they can, by now they have the benefit of the doubt from me.

mrskippy

11-27-2003, 01:13 PM

Originally posted by RPI-Fan

or stole people's designs, I wouldn't be nearly so defensive of his products.

Using a similar table HTML code isn't stealing product design. The HTML code used contains the most basic table code, complete with a standard table header.

The look and feel of TPB is completely different from FBB. Sure the games basically do the same things. Sure Gary used Day 1, Day 2, etc. like HR, but that's not a crime. It was probably easier than having to compose an entire calendar system into the game ... as Markus did with OOTP.

Be careful how you say what you say. He didn't steal "software" code, just "HTML" code.

FrogMan

11-27-2003, 01:23 PM

Originally posted by mrskippy
RPI-Fan,

Let me see here. The game isn't even officially released yet. Those who got in on the early release should have expected some potential early problems.

As for the bugs, Gary quickly went into patch mode and released the first patch last night. That's impressive, given the holiday weekend.

What's even more impressive is that it appears Gary is working though the holiday to attempt to quash the few remaining bugs and the HTML controversy, to get a top notch game out for the Friday evening release.

Joe, TC Dale, Arlie, and Gary spent time in the chat room yesterday afternoon and evening. They've been responding on the boards. That's pretty good support, given the holiday.

The only thing down right now is 400's official support e-mail and that's understandable, given that the person who gets those can't check the inbox right now. Again, given the timing, I think that's perfectly acceptable.

Sure there are bugs, but last I checked there were bugs in the recently release FOF and this is the FIFTH version. FOF has been around for years and Jim still hasn't released a perfectly bug free product.

With software like this, the beta team isn't going to catch everything until the game ends up on everyone's computer and we see the different errors that are possible.

Not sure all the arguments that it's released over a holiday are so good or worthy of anything here. I mean they HAD TO KNOW it was a holiday when they set the date, right? Not taking anything away from the developper, but he HAD TO KNOW he'd probably have a very long weekend when he was gonna release it. It's falling on Thanksgiving weekend, so be it, it's not a selling point to me...

I don't have much to say about the game, will not buy it, not because it's not good, I simply don't have any interest for basketball...

FM

SirFozzie

11-27-2003, 01:27 PM

What I'm afraid of with regards to .400, is that this somehow became a "set it and forget it" date.

With the biggest shopping day of the year being the day after thanksgiving, was it a design goal of the .400 team to have it out, no matter what, for that day?

Probably not, but the timing is enought to make me raise an eyebrow.

SirFozzie

11-27-2003, 01:29 PM

Dola (sorry)

I'm a firm believer that you release a demo BEFORE you release the full game. It allows you to catch errors, that the beta team missed, BEFORE people have paid $30-$40 and expect a finished public. Hopefully future .400 games will have a time-limited demo before release, I do think it would help them with Day 1 Issues (meaning day of release, etc)

mrskippy

11-27-2003, 01:35 PM

SirFozzie,

Remember the demo should come out with the release on Friday. The people who have it now pre-ordered the game and that was one of the drawbacks.

It's like when you pre-order a PC game from ebgames.com months ahead of any demo. You're putting faith into liking the game.

I believe there is a trial button in the current download, though the 400 guys would have to clarify if it can be used right now. The demo itself is full-version, but you can only play for three days.

People fail to remember that ViaTech does allow you to return software within a certain time period and apparently they've got a sophisticated system to allow you to return eLicense software ... you can't simply get a refund without uninstalling all licenses first.

As for the trial ... perhaps we can get a clarification from 400. The software is out ... will the trial work now?

mrskippy

11-27-2003, 01:36 PM

Dola,

Actually I remember hearing someone say they made it into trial mode yesterday ...

So I think if it's the case ... the demo is out.

SirFozzie

11-27-2003, 01:37 PM

Skippy: I mean a significant amount of time, 2-3 weeks, or a bit longer. Look at the benefit that CM had for a demo.

And I think a ViaTech type thing isn't really a demo, it's still a PURCHASE and then unlock.. but eh.. that's just my opinion.

The_herd

11-27-2003, 01:40 PM

Originally posted by mrskippy
Let me see here. The game isn't even officially released yet. Those who got in on the early release should have expected some potential early problems.

I don't buy this BS, they paid for a game and there was no, "This could be buggy as hell disclaimer". The official release is on the 28 and they allowed people to download it 2 days early , I really don't think you should expect a buggy product 2 days before the official release.

I also don't commend him on putting a patch out that quick, its his job, its what he does and he probably realized if he didn't get one out he probably wouldn't be doing this successfully much longer.

While its damn near impossible for the developers of text sims to release a bug-free product because of the size of the development teams, I don't think its too much to ask for the game to be playable, OOTP was playable, FOF was playable, FBCB was playable, but several are reporting show stoppers within a few hours of playing the game, I don't call that playable.

Samdari

11-27-2003, 01:44 PM

Originally posted by FloridaFringe
I agree again. However, does this statement deserve a "fanboy" retaliation?

Hmm, let's see.

YES! without question.

Subby

11-27-2003, 01:47 PM

Is it just me or did .400 Studios capture Kippybot and reprogram him to come back and wreak fanboy havoc at FOFC?

FEAR KIPPYBOT!!!

mrskippy

11-27-2003, 01:48 PM

You should expect bugs when you buy any PC software. Hell, my mom is a fangirl of adventure games. She typically buys the Dreamcatcher/Adventure Company ones. They can be buggy. I don't think I've ever bought a completely bug free product. I remember how I had to always patch old Sierra adventure games.

There are too many combinations of computers out there to test the game on them all.

I don't think I've experienced any major showstoppers, other than the problem with the disappearing players. It doesn't always happen and I'm sure it's something that is a quick fix.

Plus, Joe warned everybody yesterday that they will have to make sure their computers are up to date in terms of DirectX, Jet DB, WMP, and other system stuff. After updating everything on my laptop, I didn't experience any RTE's or crashes ... just these nuisenses with the disappearing players.

And what impressed me is Gary's willingness to spend his Thanksgiving Eve and probably today to make sure I had a playable game.

If EA released a game yesterday ... you wouldn't get any support until MONDAY!!!

Put it another way, I e-mailed Dell customer service yesterday. It was sent straight to a supervisor. I don't expect a response until Monday.

Yeah, the game has bugs. FOF 2004 had bugs!!! And like I said ... this is what ... the FIFTH version.

SirFozzie

11-27-2003, 01:50 PM

Skippy.. the thing is.. we would be critical of ANY game that was released out in the wild, with disappearing players.

The issue with TDCB's, shall we say, less than perfect launch, remains in our heads and we're thinking "Here we go again..."

I thank goodness with Arlie saying that they WILL NOT release TPF until it's complete. I just wish they had hewed to that with TPB.

Subby

11-27-2003, 01:52 PM

KippyBot - here is a message just for you: 10001001001001010101010010101.

Don't forget the black sneakers and white socks...

mrskippy

11-27-2003, 02:03 PM

SirFozzie,

But TDCB works great now. Though, I'll admit, I like the simulation in FBCB better. Still both are great games.

I don't think you can see TPB was released before it was finished. All the feature sets are there, but now we're seeing a few things not working right. That has nothing to do with the game being incomplete and everything to do with beta testers.

Perhaps it is time for 400 SS to reconsider how it does its beta testing. How a beta tester can miss something like disappearing players is beyond me. Beta testers aren't there just to find RTEs. They are there to find all the little bugs and showstoppers. They are supposed to report these things to 400.

However, I read these reports that beta testers sign up just to be able to play the game before its out. That's something that 400 (and others) need to reconsider. Perhaps start requiring beta testers to file a daily bug report and if the tester fails to do so, revoke the beta license.

I signed a scrub from the developmental league. Did the beta testers do this? Did they do it for EVERY team in the game. (Meaning, you need at least 29 testers here -- one to test each team).

Hopefully Arlie will put a little more testing into TPF.

And hopefully 400 can rework their beta procedures, because obviously they are missing things.

HornedFrog Purple

11-27-2003, 02:04 PM

come on now guys, it's thanksgiving for most people, can we just get along for one day (maybe x-mas too?)

skippy you had to know that a .400 release would be closely scrutinized, given a previous track record. Sure it was going to have bugs, almost everything that comes out has bugs, but there was going to be little slack given. That might not be fair but that's the way it is.

HeavyReign said the case is closed regarding the HTML so let it be closed.

KJDelaney

11-27-2003, 02:13 PM

Didn't the latest release of CM have a patch available within a few hours of its release?

SirFozzie

11-27-2003, 02:14 PM

Skippy:

Agreed, TDCB is pretty tight now. But they've lost a percentage of their audience with how long it tok to make the game work well and to standards. I don't play it much any more, because there's FBCB.

I want .400 to succeed. I like the folks over there. Well, most of them. I was already leaning towards not buying TPB before the developer came steaming over here. His attitude pushed me off the fence towards not buying it. I was willing to see how the game was at release, and if everything was great, then I'd go with the flow.

Instead, there's a couple showstoppers that make me wonder how this got the ok for release. I'm hoping they fix it, quickly, and completely (as much as any game is ever complete ;)) I was a strong buy for TPF, but with two games running having release issues, I'm wondering if I should wait a week or so for TPF.

SirFozzie

11-27-2003, 02:16 PM

Originally posted by KJDelaney
Didn't the latest release of CM have a patch available within a few hours of its release?

Which supports my point, earlier in the thread, that there needs to be a pre-release demo. Yes there was a patch, BECAUSE folks testing the demo found errors, which the developers had enough lead time to fix BEFORE the game was in stores

mrskippy

11-27-2003, 02:37 PM

The game got the OK, because the beta testers probably didn't report those bugs and they should have. The beta testers are there to test the game, while the developer works on coding. They are supposed to report bugs back to the developer.

I remember when Arlie was developing CAD, I was on his beta team and the way he did things was great. Using MSN Messenger we were able to talk back and forth about bugs in the beta and get them quashed. That's what needs to happen. They need testers willing to work hard to find the bugs and report them (and exactly how they had them happen).

In some cases, beta testers need to constantly save, than be able to send the saved filed to the developer to have him/her replicate the error if necessary.

Perhaps in the next few weeks Arlie can step up the beta testing process for TPF. Perhaps he can find a few more sould willing to really put the game to the test. I think he's probably found some great testers in those who pre-ordered and downloaded TPB yesterday. Many of those people are probably potential TPF customers as well, myself included.

With a good beta team, you don't need to worry about releasing a demo a few weeks ahead of time.

BTW ... with CM you're talking about retail software. The game is finished SEVERAL weeks before it hits store shelves. Sigames has to have CDs pressed, packaged, and than shipped to retailers. With ESD, you don't have to do all those things. You can put a game on the market in hours, as opposed to several weeks.

Basically, when Sigames releases a demo, it is for a finished product that has left beta, is no longer being coded, and has gone gold. That's why they can release a demo three weeks before release.

With 400, if you release a demo of TPF now (assuming its due out in three weeks), you'd be releasing beta software.

To do what you say, 400 would finish TPF in mid-December, put out a demo for three weeks, and than release the game in January. That's a waste ... because it's the job of the beta teams to find the bugs.

So, it's more a matter of 400 revamping their beta procedures.

mrskippy

11-27-2003, 02:44 PM

BTW ... unlike Sigames or any other software maker than sells retail ... 400 SS does have the advantage of not putting the game on the market tomorrow.

Again, this was a pre-release only. So technically, they could hold off on selling the game tomorrow. Doubt they will and it sounds like they'll have the bugs fixed, so it's a moot point.

KJDelaney

11-27-2003, 02:58 PM

I, for one, am very happy with the release of TPB. I guess I am one of the lucky ones that just haven't run across any bugs yet. I am not saying that they don't exist, but I have not been bitten by them.

This is their first foray into pro hoops, and you have to admit, it is a good product.

In closing, please name 1 game that, when released, doesn't have issues. Someone earlier in the post said that FOF is on its fifth version, and still needs patches. That is the nature of the beast. Like it or not, the PC is not really made to play games on. Hence the need for patches.

thanks

SirFozzie

11-27-2003, 03:17 PM

Kelly:

I'm glad you don't have any issues with the game so far. I want it to succeed, but issues such as those brought up on the .400 board does not fill me with confidence about how the game actually runs.

Joe Stallings

11-27-2003, 03:25 PM

Couple of things:

1) There is no excuse for bugs, regardless of whether you pre-order. *Especially* if you pre-order. I am dissapointed that some of our pre-order customers have had issues, and as such, we have been working through the evening and over the holiday to help people out. Most of the gameplay issues have been fixed, and will be reflected in tomorrow evening's public release.

2) The whole HTML flap is silly, I'm sorry. The person who designed our reports has no idea what FBB is. When we design the HTML reports for the games, we look at ESPN and CNNSI for guidance. People say a lot of things about .400, and that's fair enough, but I think saying that we copy other games is a hoot.

3) Our betas are non-paid positions (we can't afford paid beta testing teams), and these people do the best they can.

4) IMO, a majority of the issues regarding TPB are related to the installation and system files. This is something that, unfortunately, we have limited control over. If we include all of the (mostly Microsoft grrrr) updates in the download, then the game installation file moves close to 100 mb. If we don't, we put the onus on the end-user to have his/her machine up-to-date with the latest Windows updates. This is a real dilemma for .400; we can dumb-down the games, reduce the complexity and avoid support headaches (but ultimately, produce a game product that is benign and offers nothing new or compelling to the genre), or, we can try to push the envelope and continue to move the genre forward, realizing we may take some lumps along the way.

5) Someone said our "service and support is just ridiculous." If this is true, it bothers me a lot, and I'd like to know specifically where/who on our support group failed to respond to a customer.

Joe Stallings

11-27-2003, 03:31 PM

dola

6) I personally am in favor of the pre-release demos, but some of my co-horts are not.

7) The betas: Guys, these are people you've seen here and on other boards all the time. They do the best they can and they aren't paid (and they often take undue blame post-release).

kingfc22

11-27-2003, 03:32 PM

You guys are all fanboys. Moaning and bitching about HTML. Come on, get a life. Who plays a game for the HTML. You play for the meat and potatoes of the game. Right now it looks like another bad .400 release and I'm glad I didn't get sucked in like I did for TDCB, but I'm sure it will be corrected like TDCB. However, if TPF has the same problems then I think it will crush .400's hope of becoming a true player in online sim gaming. BTW - I have CM, FOF, OOTP, TDCB so don't think I'm a .400 brown noser.

SirFozzie

11-27-2003, 03:39 PM

KingFC: Way to take an issue that was resolved 40 posts ago and try to restart things.

Joe: I hope for the best, really. I won't be buying it, but I'm thinking it will turn out fine.

Eaglesfan27

11-27-2003, 03:41 PM

My 2 cents:

I'm really glad I resisted the temptation to pre-order TPB. I pre-ordered TDCB and was burnt out on it by the time they got it working nicely (which I believe it does now.) I'll wait a while now to see if they get all of the bugs out and to see more positive reviews from people I respect on this board. I'll try a demo when it's out to check to see if I agree with the positive reviews (assuming there will be some from people I respect on here.)

Even though it is a different main author, this 2nd disappointing pre-release/release from this company has pushed me over the edge to not preorder TPF and to wait until I see positive reviews from people I trust on this board. Also, I will wait for the demo on TPF. I know a release is never going to be bug free, but there are just too many big issues from the company's first two releases which have me wary of the initial release of TPF.

kingfc22

11-27-2003, 03:44 PM

Originally posted by SirFozzie
KingFC: Way to take an issue that was resolved 40 posts ago and try to restart things.

Excuse me for not being here 40 posts ago. Didn't realize that I couldn't post unless it related to the most recent posts. The title of the thread is about the HTML so I figured I was on topic.

SirFozzie

11-27-2003, 03:57 PM

Maybe if you had READ the topic before posting, you would have seen it, instead of jumping in with both feet, then you wouldn't look bad for APPARENTLY trying to restart a flamefest.

(BTW, I see the incitement going on at .400, and I hope that wiser heads on both sides step in before this gets too nuts.)

mrskippy

11-27-2003, 04:09 PM

Joe,

Obviously your beta testers are volunteers, but perhaps in the future there may be a way to expand the test and possibly work on ways to get more input. I'm curious how many people sign up to beta test ... just so they can play the game.

Beta testers should 1) Be familiar with the type of game they're testing. 2) Enjoy playing that type of game. 3) Be willing to skip playing for self gratification and more for testing purposes. 4) Be willing to put more time into the game they're testing than into other games.

Perhaps there are ways to keep the beta testers accountable, hence the idea for submitting reports on the types of tests the tester ran.

Another suggestion would be for the beta testers to find time to get into a private forum or chat room to make sure that all bases are covered. You don't want something to be missed.

My knack for finding little things and digging deep into the feature set is one reason I signed up with OOTP and 400 SS to be a beta tester.

In terms of pre-release demos, I still think Shaun's whole subscription model was a good concept when he did that. That's just one way to do it.

Another way to do it is the way Microsoft does it. When they release the public beta, they charge for the software. They usually call them Release Candidates. I did this with XP, with a version of Office, and with Internet Explorer. The software has built in "kill" mechanisms that will make the software stop working after a certain date.

Skippy

sabotai

11-27-2003, 04:31 PM

In closing, please name 1 game that, when released, doesn't have issues. Someone earlier in the post said that FOF is on its fifth version, and still needs patches.

There's no way you can put the issues that TDCB and TPB has had on release on the same level as FOF2k4. Games on release always have things that need to be tweaked, misspellings to correct, minor problems to correct. Not all have CTDs, RTEs and other major problems (ie. players disappearing). It's silly to put them on the same level and compare them.

Samdari

11-27-2003, 04:44 PM

Originally posted by Joe Stallings
Couple of things:

1) There is no excuse for bugs, regardless of whether you pre-order. *Especially* if you pre-order. I am dissapointed that some of our pre-order customers have had issues, and as such, we have been working through the evening and over the holiday to help people out. Most of the gameplay issues have been fixed, and will be reflected in tomorrow evening's public release.

I appreciate you stepping up and saying this Joe. It saved me the trouble of pointing out how the "pre-order customers should expect showstopping bugs" argument is such complete and utter crap. You really should get a C & D order preventing certain fanboys from trying to defend you on public message boards. Despite the fact that your company is NOT taking the position that your customers should expect this, having others do so will leave a bad taste in some potential customer's mouths.

Another question for the .400 folks. Do you guys not enjoy spending time with your families on holidays? First Dec 22 last year, now the evening before Thanksgiving this year. I want you all to go write on the company whiteboard 100 times, "I will not release a game right before a holiday"

Good luck on heading off the storm on this one, and finishing TPF.

Schmidty

11-27-2003, 04:54 PM

Originally posted by SirFozzie
Maybe if you had READ the topic before posting, you would have seen it, instead of jumping in with both feet, then you wouldn't look bad for APPARENTLY trying to restart a flamefest.

(BTW, I see the incitement going on at .400, and I hope that wiser heads on both sides step in before this gets too nuts.)

David, you're a nice guy and I like you. Having said that, stop acting like a pompous jackass. You aren't the thread police.

Pacersfan46

11-27-2003, 05:12 PM

To start, I think this whole HTML thing is stupid. Who really gives a damn?

Secondly, you're asking for people who weren't satisfied with their support Joe .... I guess I could be one. My support was provided by ... you.

I preordered TPB, and while I haven't come across any bugs, that's the bad part. I can't play my game. I emailed you about this, and you wrote back telling me my Order-ID. Which is an honest mistake, I know many people didn't keep theirs for ... whatever reason. My problem though is that when I put my order-ID in that it won't give me the license, and I can't play.

Since the time I e-mailed you yesterday for the 2nd time about this, it's been over 24 hours. I understand it's Thanksgiving and you have every right to enjoy yours like everyone else ... but as a customer I'm a bit .... miffed that I preordered the game to play it on Wednesday, and I could be lucky if I get to play it on the public release date Friday. Just a bit frustrating.

markprior22

11-27-2003, 05:46 PM

Originally posted by mrskippy
Joe,

Obviously your beta testers are volunteers, but perhaps in the future there may be a way to expand the test and possibly work on ways to get more input. I'm curious how many people sign up to beta test ... just so they can play the game.

Beta testers should 1) Be familiar with the type of game they're testing. 2) Enjoy playing that type of game. 3) Be willing to skip playing for self gratification and more for testing purposes. 4) Be willing to put more time into the game they're testing than into other games.

Perhaps there are ways to keep the beta testers accountable, hence the idea for submitting reports on the types of tests the tester ran.

Another suggestion would be for the beta testers to find time to get into a private forum or chat room to make sure that all bases are covered. You don't want something to be missed.

My knack for finding little things and digging deep into the feature set is one reason I signed up with OOTP and 400 SS to be a beta tester.

In terms of pre-release demos, I still think Shaun's whole subscription model was a good concept when he did that. That's just one way to do it.

Another way to do it is the way Microsoft does it. When they release the public beta, they charge for the software. They usually call them Release Candidates. I did this with XP, with a version of Office, and with Internet Explorer. The software has built in "kill" mechanisms that will make the software stop working after a certain date.

Skippy

I see posts like this quite often and I feel the need to respond. I used to think "who the hell is beta testing these games?". I have since been involved in two different text sim betas and now see that it just isn't that simple to blame the beta testers or imply that they don't know enough to be good testers. Sometimes problems are brought up and are simply not addressed (due to time constraints, other bugs that are more severe, etc) until later via a patch. It's not that the betas didn't do their job...sometimes the designer just can't implement what the betas are reporting for various reasons. Should the release date slip if that happens? Maybe, but the betas don't have anything to do with that (other than possibly being asked their opinion). Sometimes things might happen between beta and release that affect the game. I was shocked when I d/l OOTP 4 (maybe 5) and found right away that earned runs scored in the top of the first inning were not counting against ERA. How in the hell did that get past beta?
I don't believe that it did. Something had to have happened to cause that bug. How does FOF5 get released and crash when TCY drafts are used? I have a hard time believing that feature wasn't tested significantly during the beta process.

Basically, I just want to say that many comments concerning beta testers are being made by people without proper knowledge of what is taking place. I don't mean to preach because I used to be one of them. I don't get paid to beta test but I take the responsibility seriously because I LOVE sports sims and am excited about the direction they are headed.

Icy

11-27-2003, 06:32 PM

Originally posted by markprior22
I see posts like this quite often and I feel the need to respond. I used to think "who the hell is beta testing these games?". I have since been involved in two different text sim betas and now see that it just isn't that simple to blame the beta testers or imply that they don't know enough to be good testers. Sometimes problems are brought up and are simply not addressed (due to time constraints, other bugs that are more severe, etc) until later via a patch. It's not that the betas didn't do their job...sometimes the designer just can't implement what the betas are reporting for various reasons. Should the release date slip if that happens? Maybe, but the betas don't have anything to do with that (other than possibly being asked their opinion). Sometimes things might happen between beta and release that affect the game. I was shocked when I d/l OOTP 4 (maybe 5) and found right away that earned runs scored in the top of the first inning were not counting against ERA. How in the hell did that get past beta?
I don't believe that it did. Something had to have happened to cause that bug. How does FOF5 get released and crash when TCY drafts are used? I have a hard time believing that feature wasn't tested significantly during the beta process.

Basically, I just want to say that many comments concerning beta testers are being made by people without proper knowledge of what is taking place. I don't mean to preach because I used to be one of them. I don't get paid to beta test but I take the responsibility seriously because I LOVE sports sims and am excited about the direction they are headed.

I agree with you that sometimes betatesters report stuff and it's not fixed, but then the programmer should admit his fault insted of leting everybody to blame at the betatesters, it happened at sigames forums, everybody asking how was it tested when there were really easy to see bugs not fixed. About TPB, i asked to be betatester but i wasn't aproved so i don't know how was the betatesting, you beat me on that. Yesterday an hour after the game was relesed i posted 4 bugs at 400ss forums, some of them about crashing because some logos were not included, others about error alocating memory (that could depend on the system) and one about a missing scrollbar at the FA agent. This means that or the betatesters disn't find them before or that the developers didn't fix them after being reported, both cases are not the same, but have the same efect for the customer that purchased the game and has to deal with the bugs.

I think that the best way is to create a public beta demo, telling everybody that it's a demo that will have bugs, i'm sure that will be tons of guys that will play it nad will find tons of bugs, again look at how it was done by sigames for CM4, they had tons of free betatesters that discovered tons of bugs, their only problem is that it was a retail game so you can't fix bugs the day before of the release.

Like you i'm happy about Joe Stallings not hidding, he recogniced that the pre release shouldn't have any bug and he has my respect, as he said, it's not a valid excuse, i payed to have a game early, but that doesn't mean that i don't mind if it's buggy.

FloridaFringe

11-27-2003, 06:44 PM

Would the fact that the wrong players show up on your team’s depth chart or in the play calling screens be similar to disappearing players? I for one am waiting for this issue to be resolved, which the first patch addressed but didn't correct, until purchasing FOF 2004. This is a complete show-stopping bug in my book.

mrskippy

11-27-2003, 06:49 PM

One thing I've remembered is that many times beta tests are often zip files, rather than a complete install.

I remember one thing that Markus did with OOTP was to actually give beta testers a fully, eLicensed copy of the game prior to release. In this way the beta testers can test the EXACT software that will be sold to the public.

A benefit of doing it like this is that the free software can serve as fair compensation for testing the game.

If 400 SS isn't doing this already, perhaps it's something they can consider. Not sure how big/small the beta teams are, but I don't think it would eat too much into the bottom line to do this. And in the long run it allows for thorough testing of the "release candidate" as opposed to just zipped up source code.

Subby

11-27-2003, 06:54 PM

Joe should cut KippyBot and Couriers a check because they are working overtime for 400!!!

If you think KippyBot's work in this thread is good...<a href="http://www.400softwarestudios.com/invboard/upload/index.php?showtopic=44276&st=0">well...</a>

FloridaFringe

11-27-2003, 07:00 PM

Originally posted by Subby
Joe should cut KippyBot and Couriers a check because they are working overtime for 400!!!

If you think KippyBot's work in this thread is good...<a href="http://www.400softwarestudios.com/invboard/upload/index.php?showtopic=44276&st=0">well...</a>

Please show me where I have mentioned 400 Studios in any of my posts either in this thread or another. If people would take the blinders off and not instantly look at others as fan boys then they might have understood my point. In not so many words, all games have bugs and the level of importance of each bug depends on the individual. Take it for what it is worth but that was the simplicity of my statement.

Subby

11-27-2003, 07:03 PM

Originally posted by FloridaFringe
Please show me where I have mentioned 400 Studios in any of my posts either in this thread or another. If people would take the blinders off and not instantly look at others as fan boys then they might have understood my point. In not so many words, all games have bugs and the level of importance of each bug depends on the individual. Take it for what it is worth but that was the simplicity of my statement.
Lighten up, Frances...

This is the Internet. Enjoy the free porn and off-shore gambling. Al Gore never meant for you to take it so...seriously. :D

FloridaFringe

11-27-2003, 07:06 PM

Whatever you think Subby. Happy Thanksgiving FOF Fan Boy. :p

Buccaneer

11-27-2003, 07:07 PM

Originally posted by Subby
Is it just me or did .400 Studios capture Kippybot and reprogram him to come back and wreak fanboy havoc at FOFC?

FEAR KIPPYBOT!!!

That was really good. Given the amount of "This person is on your Ignore List. To view this post click [here] " I see in the thread, I would say the Kippybot is working very well.

skippy you had to know that a .400 release would be closely scrutinized, given a previous track record. Sure it was going to have bugs, almost everything that comes out has bugs, but there was going to be little slack given. That might not be fair but that's the way it is.

I agree with this. It would be curious as to the TPF release, esp. considering that some of the beta testers are FOF/FOFC's best.

FloridaFringe

11-27-2003, 07:08 PM

DOLA:

Everybody calls me Psycho. Any of you guys call me Francis, and I'll kill you.

Subby

11-27-2003, 07:09 PM

Originally posted by FloridaFringe
Happy Thanksgiving FOF Fan Boy. :p
Right back at ya', Spanky Von Titsworth.

Joe Stallings

11-27-2003, 07:45 PM

Pacersfan46, I only have one email from you in my inbox, and that was for a lost order ID, which I looked up and sent back to you. I will go ahead and create an entirely new order ID and email to you tonight, let's see if that works.

rexallllsc

11-27-2003, 08:28 PM

Originally posted by mrskippy

And what impressed me is Gary's willingness to spend his Thanksgiving Eve and probably today to make sure I had a playable game.

I don't agree with that. If they release a game right before Thanksgiving that has show-stopping bugs, that's on them.

Schmidty

11-27-2003, 08:35 PM

Originally posted by rexallllsc
I don't agree with that. If they release a game right before Thanksgiving that has show-stopping bugs, that's on them.

Exactly. A lot of people (including me) work on Thanksgiving. Whoopdee-fucking-doo.

mrskippy

11-27-2003, 08:39 PM

Hey they could have just said "Fuck you. It's Thanksgiving, 400 Software Studios will reopen for normal operations on Monday morning. Have a nice weekend."

Did EA, Vivendi, Dreamcatcher, or any other software companies release new games this week? If so, how many of them are giving support to customers today? I'm sure if you called EA customer service or technical support right now, you'd get a message saying otherwise.

If you gave Joe, Arlie, Gary, etc. a call today, you'd probably be able to get support and whip up a nice conversation to boot.

While it's unfortunate they released a buggy game, at least they are taking the time to get it right before tomorrow's official release.

Subby

11-27-2003, 08:42 PM

Good point, KippyBot.

mrskippy

11-27-2003, 08:43 PM

Originally posted by Schmidty
Exactly. A lot of people (including me) work on Thanksgiving. Whoopdee-fucking-doo.

But most software makers are closed today.

BTW ... What do you do? Only thing open in town here today: a grocery store, a few drug stores (RiteAid, Walgreens type), Kmart (but not Wal-Mart or Target), gas stations, 7-Eleven, a few fast food joints (limited hours) and Denny's (duh!). Oh and the movie theater.

If I was at my reporting job, I'd be off today. As a sub teacher, I'm off today and Friday.

Neuqua

11-27-2003, 08:43 PM

I don't know if I'm just unlucky or what but everything seems to be a little off in TPB.

In my first three seasons I finished with 78 wins, then 72, and then 74.. The 76ers held the real life NBA record for victories with 69 which was set sometime in the 70s I think. And it lasted all the way until the Chicago Bulls won 72 games in the late 90s. 78,72,74 win totals in my first three years is tough to understand.

As is my 7'3'' 324lb C who has ratings of 81 for off. rebounding and 90 for def. rebounding only grabbing 7 rebounds per game. Someone that big and that good at rebounding should have numbers ATLEAST in the double figures one would think.

I've been as anxious anybody for the release of TPB as some of you know. I REALLY want to like this game but for now it's just not working out.

Neuqua

Schmidty

11-27-2003, 08:44 PM

Originally posted by mrskippy
But most software makers are closed today.

BTW ... What do you do? Only thing open in town here today: a grocery store, a few drug stores (RiteAid, Walgreens type), Kmart (but not Wal-Mart or Target), gas stations, 7-Eleven, a few fast food joints (limited hours) and Denny's (duh!). Oh and the movie theater.

If I was at my reporting job, I'd be off today. As a sub teacher, I'm off today and Friday.

My job is to call you a nurse shoe-wearing nancy boy. I need a raise.

Actually, I'm an auditor at a local hotel.

mrskippy

11-27-2003, 08:47 PM

Hopefully when real teams are released, the records and stuff will even out. The Kings (Royals) having the second worst record ... not these days.

BTW ... the other people who may work today are cops, firefighters, doctors, and hotel/motel workers (you). Rest assured, most corporate people don't work today.

ADDED: Surprised they make the hotel auditor work on the holiday.

The_herd

11-27-2003, 08:51 PM

Do EA, Vivendi, Dreamcatcher, or any other software company have as much riding on a release as .400 did with this one? What it comes down to is .400 has let down a lot of people and unless TPF knocks everone's socks off at launch, then their customer base could very well be a fanboy only clique. Some people over on .400 boards expect TPF to be the best text sim ever made and if it is anything short of that then they should hold .400 accountable and stop kissing their asses.

Being in the Armed Forces I'm not impressed by giving up a holiday to work, its part of life. When yourelease a product the day before a holiday and it needs work, then you suck it up and get your ass to work. Its part of making a living. I know if pulled some incredibly shitty hours on any holiday you can name and I'm sure there is a whole hell of a lot of people on this board and in this world that have done the same.

I think we need to stop patting .400 on the back for showing up to work and ask them to get it right in the 1st place.

kcchief19

11-27-2003, 08:56 PM

Originally posted by Buccaneer
That was really good. Given the amount of "This person is on your Ignore List. To view this post click [here] " I see in the thread, I would say the Kippybot is working very well.

I agree with this. It would be curious as to the TPF release, esp. considering that some of the beta testers are FOF/FOFC's best.
Bucc, who says we always disagree? This does double for me. I've been a vocal critic of .400 in the past, but I'm not going for TPB so I can't comment on that. That being said, everyone knew -- including .400 -- that this release needed to be better than usually to erase some lingering doubts. I will gauge the success of this release based solely on the people at FOFC that I respect and not a bunch of fanboys and Kippybot who come in here to "save the day."

I bear no ill will against .400, but if the company wants to be big time and appear professional, they need to hire someone who handles customer service that has no emotional investment in the programming and brings a defensive tone to replying in forums like this.

And yes, the Ignore List is gold, Bucc. :)

mrskippy

11-27-2003, 08:59 PM

Well, how possible was it that the bugs creeped in when everything was packaged into an executable install program and wrapped with eLicense?

As someone said on the 400 boards, it seems odds that nobody would have noticed the disappearing player and major (eye-catching) bugs during beta. So something creeped into the code somewhere between beta and release. Hence, the reason why the release candidate itself (fully wrapped) needs to be tested to. Hopefully, they do this with TPF to see what happens.

Also, is it possible that these issues with having to install all this extra stuff could be creating some of the problems? The 400 guys said they don't want to have to include everything within the install, but I think that may be their best bet in the future, even if it means a larger download.

In fact, if 400 wants to put together a 100 MB+ download, with everything in it, I'm willing to test it out. Just post a password protected link and PM me. I'll do it tonight. Obviously, that's a good first step to see if these bugs are a matter of missing files that the normal MS channels aren't giving us.

The_herd

11-27-2003, 09:06 PM

Originally posted by mrskippy
The 400 guys said they don't want to have to include everything within the install, but I think that may be their best bet in the future, even if it means a larger download.

Well, I actually agree with this. I don't think it would be too hard to set up the larger download and also offer a CD version to those who don't want to download something that size. Especially if it means putting out a better product.

mrskippy

11-27-2003, 09:09 PM

I've purchased many games where it will install or update system files if they aren't there already.

rexallllsc

11-27-2003, 09:17 PM

Originally posted by mrskippy
Hey they could have just said "Fuck you. It's Thanksgiving, 400 Software Studios will reopen for normal operations on Monday morning. Have a nice weekend."

Sure, they could've. They also could've released the game next Monday....AFTER THANKSGIVING. They made the choice. They deal with it.

Did EA, Vivendi, Dreamcatcher, or any other software companies release new games this week? If so, how many of them are giving support to customers today? I'm sure if you called EA customer service or technical support right now, you'd get a message saying otherwise.

You can't compare big-time companies to small indie ones. Different leagues.

While it's unfortunate they released a buggy game, at least they are taking the time to get it right before tomorrow's official release.

If you bought a car, and the wheels fell off when you got one mile down the street, would you be pissed, or would you be happy beause "hey, they're working to fix it!"

Sorry, that doesn't fly with me. I'll have patience with developers. I never expect a perfect game out of the box...but I don't give them credit for fixing glaring errors, either. That comes with the territory.

rexallllsc

11-27-2003, 09:20 PM

Originally posted by mrskippy
But most software makers are

And most software makers don't release buggy software the day before a holiday. IMO, they only logical move is to stay and fix the bugs. If they don't, they're basically committing company suicide.

This isn't a slam on .400...just the troof.

mrskippy

11-27-2003, 09:21 PM

The thing is ... the way beta testers are talking ... it doesn't appear these errors were there. Meaning:

1 - They got in when it was packaged and wrapped in eLicense
2 - Or beta testers had every piece of support software needed to make it work.

As for the car comparison, well, I own a Daewoo. Nuff said.

mrskippy

11-27-2003, 09:22 PM

Originally posted by rexallllsc
And most software makers don't release buggy software the day before a holiday.

Can someone tell me what PC games were released this week?

rexallllsc

11-27-2003, 09:23 PM

Originally posted by Neuqua
In my first three seasons I finished with 78 wins, then 72, and then 74.. The 76ers held the real life NBA record for victories with 69 which was set sometime in the 70s I think. And it lasted all the way until the Chicago Bulls won 72 games in the late 90s. 78,72,74 win totals in my first three years is tough to understand.

As is my 7'3'' 324lb C who has ratings of 81 for off. rebounding and 90 for def. rebounding only grabbing 7 rebounds per game. Someone that big and that good at rebounding should have numbers ATLEAST in the double figures one would think.

Those win #'s are SCARY.

Also, question re: the rebounding.

What are the #'s of the leading rebounder in the league?

rexallllsc

11-27-2003, 09:25 PM

Originally posted by mrskippy
Can someone tell me what PC games were released this week?

Please tell me you aren't asking people to go do the work for you!

Fact is, games that are buggy on this level are RARE from big-time game companies. So far, .400 is 2 for 2 regarding their bball games. They have a lot more at stake...a lot more to prove than say, EA with their games.

mrskippy

11-27-2003, 09:32 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't somebody say at one time that basketball is one of the toughest to code and that football is one of the easiest to code.

As for games coming out this week. Given that I pretty much don't buy too many PC games, other than Solecismic, OOTP Dev. and 400 titles, I'm clueless as to what this week's new releases are.

mrskippy

11-27-2003, 09:36 PM

OK This game was released this week:

Mysterious Journey 2: Chameleon
Released on 11/24/2003

Dreamcatcher/Adventure Company is known to have showstopping bugs in their games. If you were sitting down playing last night or today and it crashes, what are the odds of getting a patch today or Friday? Slim and none.

In some cases major studios never even patch their games.

druez

11-27-2003, 09:41 PM

Ok Madden 2004 was released for XBOX and you couldn't import from the NCAA 2004 game.

Madden 2004 had major problems with dual control joysticks working properly.

Madden 2004 had numerious graphic glitches and problems.

Madden 2004 had a huge sack problem in coach mode.

I could go on but you get the point.

That was just one title but the list goes on.

NCAA 2004 had very choppy sound on an XBOX. Now this is a closed system with no variations.

Most of the crash bugs people have experienced in TPB are because of peoples OS's.

You need to keep your machines up to date, that isn't the responsibilty of the game maker but yours. Do your windows updates, update your media players. They develop games on "Current software" All the updates are free so the problem is on you.

rexallllsc

11-27-2003, 10:26 PM

Originally posted by mrskippy
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't somebody say at one time that basketball is one of the toughest to code and that football is one of the easiest to code.

I'm not sure what the point of that is.

EagleFan

11-27-2003, 10:26 PM

I should learn my lesson to never read another thread about .400 SS. The more I hear from their fanboys, the less I want to purchase any of their products. Now Kippy is back and being fanboy #1 (a-hole #1, you make the call). This freaking issue was already solved when I left for my turkeyday meal before noon but the fanboys just couldn't let it rest and the grand-daddy of all jackasses is leading the way.

Oh, and only a true jackass would threadjack a happy thanksgiving thread (the .400 forum thread) just to be a complete moron to stir up more crap.

Just why is he back on this board anyway?

rexallllsc

11-27-2003, 10:29 PM

Originally posted by druez
Ok Madden 2004 was released for XBOX and you couldn't import from the NCAA 2004 game.

Madden 2004 had major problems with dual control joysticks working properly.

Madden 2004 had numerious graphic glitches and problems.

Madden 2004 had a huge sack problem in coach mode.

I could go on but you get the point.

I hate to tell you, but Madden isn't a 100% real sim. The goals of most text sims is to mimic real-life as close as possible. There aren't many console games, Madden included, that are designed with that purpose......but thanks for trying.

rexallllsc

11-27-2003, 10:30 PM

Originally posted by EagleFan
I should learn my lesson to never read another thread about .400 SS. The more I hear from their fanboys, the less I want to purchase any of their products. Now Kippy is back and being fanboy #1 (a-hole #1, you make the call). This freaking issue was already solved when I left for my turkeyday meal before noon but the fanboys just couldn't let it rest and the grand-daddy of all jackasses is leading the way.

Oh, and only a true jackass would threadjack a happy thanksgiving thread (the .400 forum thread) just to be a complete moron to stir up more crap.

Just why is he back on this board anyway?

Shut up and be happy they decided to fix their bugs at all!

;)

Arles

11-27-2003, 11:00 PM

Originally posted by Pacersfan46
To start, I think this whole HTML thing is stupid. Who really gives a damn?

Secondly, you're asking for people who weren't satisfied with their support Joe .... I guess I could be one. My support was provided by ... you.

I preordered TPB, and while I haven't come across any bugs, that's the bad part. I can't play my game. I emailed you about this, and you wrote back telling me my Order-ID. Which is an honest mistake, I know many people didn't keep theirs for ... whatever reason. My problem though is that when I put my order-ID in that it won't give me the license, and I can't play.

Since the time I e-mailed you yesterday for the 2nd time about this, it's been over 24 hours. I understand it's Thanksgiving and you have every right to enjoy yours like everyone else ... but as a customer I'm a bit .... miffed that I preordered the game to play it on Wednesday, and I could be lucky if I get to play it on the public release date Friday. Just a bit frustrating.

This is something that has to be handled by Viatech. We cannot force the elicense server to accept IDs. I know for a fact that we submitted a trouble ticket to elicense on this, but not all companies are willing to work over Thanksgiving like we are.

Subby

11-27-2003, 11:05 PM

Thanks for shutting down KippyBot for the night...

SlapBone

11-27-2003, 11:09 PM

Originally posted by EagleFan
I should learn my lesson to never read another thread about .400 SS. The more I hear from their fanboys, the less I want to purchase any of their products.

Actually one of the people I'm assuming you are labeling a fanboy (Druez) is the person who turned me on to FOF2004 and TCY which are both top-notch sims.

I have also enjoyed TPB since I bought it. Druez also turned me on to this product. I have a couple of issues that I don't like about the interface (with TPB) but, overall, .400 makes a pretty good sim.

To say that FOF2004 is without issues is a complete farce (unless you see no problem with substituting some other team's players into your plays).

All of the guys making these games are grass-roots kind of people and are really only doing what they do for the fans.

McSweeny

11-27-2003, 11:34 PM

Originally posted by SlapBone
Actually one of the people I'm assuming you are labeling a fanboy (Druez) is the person who turned me on to FOF2004 and TCY which are bot top-notch sims.

i'm assuming you meant "not top-notch sims"

Last I checked both TCY and FOF2004 are the best pro and college sims available.

SlapBone

11-27-2003, 11:36 PM

Originally posted by McSweeny
i'm assuming you meant "not top-notch sims"

Last I checked both TCY and FOF2004 are the best pro and college sims available.

No i meant BOTH. But thanks for showing up Fanboy :)

druez

11-27-2003, 11:41 PM

rexallllsc

People above said that EA Sports doesn't make games with bugs in it. I'm simply refuting that point. EA sports is supposed to be a sim. "if its in the game its in the game" ring a bell?

For that matter, No game plays in terms of gameplay more like real football then madden. So, I don't get your point.

McSweeny

11-27-2003, 11:43 PM

Originally posted by SlapBone
No i meant BOTH. But thanks for showing up Fanboy :)

:D

sorry about that

sabotai

11-28-2003, 12:02 AM

Originally posted by SlapBone
To say that FOF2004 is without issues is a complete farce (unless you see no problem with substituting some other team's players into your plays).

And exactly who said this?

Ben E Lou

11-28-2003, 12:22 AM

Skippy promised me he'd stay away from controversy and from trolling if I let him return. His posts in this thread concerned me. The post in the FOF bug thread put it over the top. If he wants to come back to FOFC, he can come talk to me in June or so...

kingfc22

11-28-2003, 12:25 AM

Originally posted by sabotai
And exactly who said this?

Originally posted by The_herd
You're not the only one, any time you use the view button when calling plays the players listed in the drop down are wrong.

Check the other threads. Specifically, the one that talks about problems post-patch for FOF.

Ben E Lou

11-28-2003, 12:28 AM

Originally posted by kingfc22
Check the other threads. Specifically, the one that talks about problems post-patch for FOF. You...have....GOT....to be kidding me. One idiot made a sarcastic post in the post-patch thread saying that there are no bugs. If you think he was serious, I have some ocean-front land in Oklahoma to sell you.

kingfc22

11-28-2003, 12:38 AM

Whoa there buddy. I wasn't attacking anybody nor was I talking about that moron skippy. Is there not a thread titled "Problems I'm still noticing after 5.0a"? In that thread lighthouse keeper and theherd mention that the drop down window for subs during plays brings up the wrong teams players.

BTW - I prefer my current view of the Pacific Ocean.

sabotai

11-28-2003, 12:39 AM

kingfc....ummm...exactly my point? I was responding to someone who...

ah forget it. Read my other post again.

SlapBone

11-28-2003, 12:39 AM

You missed my point SkyDog. I was really just saying that all of these games have a few bugs. Too much data not to.

The reason I said that (that FOF was bug-free) was not because of anything that skip said but because this thread changed from "TPB ripped off my HTML" to "TPB totally sux because of its bugs" thread.

I like all of these games. Frankly, I know nothing of skippy or his history.

Someone lock this thread. We are falling into a vortex of confusion.

sabotai

11-28-2003, 12:56 AM

vortex....cortex....cortez....

THE SPANISH ARE COMING!

SirFozzie

11-28-2003, 01:04 AM

Of course they're not.. because if you're expecting the Spanish Inquisition, it won't happen. Why?

Because NOONE Expects the Spanish Inquisition!

FloridaFringe

11-28-2003, 09:40 AM

Some individuals seem to think that FOF 2004 is without Game Stopping Bugs and that other certain sport sims are chalk full of them. Three Game Stopping Bugs that do seem to exist in FOF 2004 really need to be addressed before the game can uphold the long-standing reputation that Jim has for creating a solid sim. It may help if another thread was started with the sole purpose of tracking the remaining bugs in the initial post just as was done when the game was first released. Hint hint SkyDog…

1. End of Game Logic. This seems to be a very broad issue but regardless it needs to be refined so that there are less OT or at least more intelligent play calling by both teams.

2. When calling your own plays, if you have a guy playing out position (like a RB at WR) due to injuries or whatever, clicking on View causes the game to crash.

3. When play calling after the first season clicking on the View button shows players from a different team.

Ben E Lou

11-28-2003, 09:46 AM

Originally posted by FloridaFringe
It may help if another thread was started with the sole purpose of tracking the remaining bugs in the initial post just as was done when the game was first released.1. There already is such a thread.
2. For those who don't call their own plays, those aren't even remotely show-stopping bugs. I've played a serious career for 16 seasons, and have run multiple test careers of 30+ seasons, and I would have been completely unaware of any of those three bugs apart from others telling me about them. I would define a "show-stopping bug" as one that makes the game unplayable for the vast majority of people. Surely you don't suggest that is the case for those three bugs.

FloridaFringe

11-28-2003, 09:53 AM

1. Where is the other thread that tracks all of the bugs that people are reporting in one organized post? Potential owners of the game don’t want to search through several threads or even several posts of discussions to see what remains on the overall bug list. One concise post would sever many of us, including Jim, rather well.

2. A lot of people do call their own plays and therefore this would be a serious issue for them. So as it stands FOF 2004 may only be suited for people that don't call their own plays?

3. If you don't call your own plays then you would be subject to having the coach call some stupid idiot play at the end of the game that could cost you the win. Great choice.

Dealing with the issues by ignoring them is definitely an option. However, I for one would like to see these resolved sooner rather than later. My point is two-fold. First of all, FOF 2004 does still have some serious bugs even after a patch. Secondly, as soon as the next patch fixes these problems I will be getting both FOF 2004 and TCY. So my main point is, hurry up already. :)

FloridaFringe

11-28-2003, 09:57 AM

Originally posted by SkyDog
I would define a "show-stopping bug" as one that makes the game unplayable for the vast majority of people. Surely you don't suggest that is the case for those three bugs.

Your definition of a Show-Stopping Bug is a bit more liberal than mine since I take a more personal approach to the matter. A Show-Stopping Bug in any game is one that makes me not want to play it as it stands without correction first.

Also, the first bug listed has nothing to do with calling your own plays and seems to affect everyone just the same. I pretty much consider everyone to be a vast majority. Unless you can safely say that this bug has never plagued you.

druez

11-28-2003, 09:57 AM

Umm skydog any bug that crashes a game is a show stopping bug.

Ben E Lou

11-28-2003, 10:08 AM

Originally posted by druez
Umm skydog any bug that crashes a game is a show stopping bug. 1. Nahhh. For example, the TCY import bug wasn't a show stopper. The game was still very playable.
2. By that definition, FOF2001/2 still has show stopping bugs. The display issues cause crashes all the time in that game, to the point where I am still in the habit of saving after every single game I sim.

MizzouRah

11-28-2003, 10:17 AM

Your definition of a Show-Stopping Bug is a bit more liberal than mine since I take a more personal approach to the matter. A Show-Stopping Bug in any game is one that makes me not want to play it as it stands without correction first.

EXACTLY. I didn't purchase the game at release because of the TCY import crashing. Now, with the playcalling bug, I'm a little miffed I bought the game so soon. As it stands, it will sit as a little cute icon on my desktop as I play TCY.

Just because someone doesn't use "X" feature doesn't mean it's not show-stopping for someone else.

Having said that, I'm pretty confident Jim will fix these issues, my question is..... when?

Todd

Easy Mac

11-28-2003, 10:26 AM

ONCE AND FOR ALL. IN THE PLAYCALLING SCREEN, THEY ARE STILL YOUR PLAYERS! THEY STILL HAVE THE SAME NUMBER, ARE IN THE SAME ORDER, AND HAVE THE SAME ATTRIBUTES. IF YOU PUT THEM IN, THE STATS GO TO THE CORRECT PLAYER. ONLY THE NAMES HAVE CHANGED. THINK DRAGNET.

AND IS MARSHALL FAULK A WR? NO, ITS NOT REALLY A PROBLEM, SINCE RB's RARELY LINE UP AT WR and VICE VERSA.

I wouldn't say the end of game logic is a bug. It would be a bug if no matter your setting, a player threw on every down all game. I think it is a tweak that needs to be made, b/c there are occassions where my players actually have kicked FG's at the end of the game to win. (and I reported the damn tweak, so hopefully this will let it rest.)

Sorry for the caps, but I've posted this all before, but it seems people don't actually like to read.

Ben E Lou

11-28-2003, 10:29 AM

Originally posted by FloridaFringe
1. Where is the other thread that tracks all of the bugs that people are reporting in one organized post? Potential owners of the game don’t want to search through several threads or even several posts of discussions to see what remains on the overall bug list. One concise post would sever many of us, including Jim, rather well.

2. A lot of people do call their own plays and therefore this would be a serious issue for them. So as it stands FOF 2004 may only be suited for people that don't call their own plays?

3. If you don't call your own plays then you would be subject to having the coach call some stupid idiot play at the end of the game that could cost you the win. Great choice.

Dealing with the issues by ignoring them is definitely an option. However, I for one would like to see these resolved sooner rather than later. My point is two-fold. First of all, FOF 2004 does still have some serious bugs even after a patch. Secondly, as soon as the next patch fixes these problems I will be getting both FOF 2004 and TCY. So my main point is, hurry up already. :) 1. I think ramzavail started it maybe? It is the thread that skippy managed to get himself back in the penalty box.

2. Maybe. I'm not an overall expert nor a beta tester. All I can tell you is that for the way I play, FOF2004 is as close to a flawless game as I've ever played.

3a. From what I understand, there is still some debate as to whether or not there is a bug with late game playcalling, or if there is a probability, based on how good your coach is at playcalling, that he will do something stupid to blow the game. I don't read many game logs, but I just looked at the close games I had in my most recent season, clearly it isn't always done poorly: 4-02-BUF41 (01:37) ATL 17 Meadows punted 41 yards from the BUF41. Touchback.

Possession to Buffalo.

1-10-BUF20 (01:30) BUF 18 DeBastiani sacked by ATL 98 Tanner for a loss of 5 yards.
Sack allowed by BUF 78 Lindell.
Ball was fumbled and recovered by BUF 78 Lindell for 0 yards to the BUF15.

2-15-BUF15 (01:13) BUF 18 DeBastiani pass completed to 87 Scanga for 11 yards.
Tackled by ATL 22 Washington.
BUF called time out.

3-04-BUF26 (01:03) BUF 18 DeBastiani pass completed to 80 Smith for 23 yards.
Tackled by ATL 55 Linquist.
--
1-10-BUF49 (00:45) BUF 18 DeBastiani spiked the ball to stop the clock.

2-10-BUF49 (00:42) BUF 18 DeBastiani pass completed to 88 Godfrey for 15 yards.
Tackled by ATL 55 Linquist, assisted by ATL 22 Washington.
--
1-10-ATL36 (00:25) BUF 18 DeBastiani spiked the ball to stop the clock.

2-10-ATL36 (00:20) BUF 18 DeBastiani pass completed to 83 Blubaum for 33 yards.
Tackled by ATL 33 Wilt.

Game MVP: ATL 84 Ryan LaraThat's a classic. Buffalo, out of time outs, spikes the ball twice when needed, and completes a 33-yasrd pass down to my 3-yard line, but you figure with 12 or 13 seconds left after the tackle, they can't run down the field and spike the ball in time for the win.Possession to Atlanta.

1-10-ATL27 (03:02) ATL 3 Forbes pass fell incomplete, intended for 83 Grier.
ARI 97 Vanderkellen hurried the quarterback into a bad throw.
Penalty: ATL - Offensive Holding.

1-20-ATL17 (02:51) ATL 34 Cooper ran inside the left guard for 5 yards.
Tackled by ARI 49 Levine.
Key block delivered by ATL 23 Van Pelt.
ARI called time out.

2-15-ATL22 (02:43) ATL 23 Van Pelt ran inside the right guard for 2 yards.
Tackled by ARI 90 Wertlieb, assisted by ARI 54 Fortin.
ARI called time out.

3-13-ATL24 (02:34) ATL 3 Forbes pass completed to 23 Van Pelt for 15 yards.
Tackled by ARI 54 Fortin.
ARI called time out.
--
1-10-ATL39 (02:26) ATL 23 Van Pelt ran inside the right tackle for 1 yard.
Tackled by ARI 24 Nelson.
Offical time out for the two-minute warning.

2-09-ATL40 (02:00) ATL 3 Forbes pass fell incomplete, intended for 83 Grier.
ARI 92 Parmalee hurried the quarterback into a bad throw.

3-09-ATL40 (01:51) ATL 37 Dunn ran inside the left guard for -1 yards.
Tackled by ARI 97 Vanderkellen.

4-10-ATL39 (01:06) ATL 17 Meadows punted 49 yards from the ATL39.
ARI 24 Nelson returned the ball 0 yards to the ARI12. Tackled by ATL 33 Wilt.

Possession to Arizona.

1-10-ARI12 (00:55) ARI 12 Bower pass fell incomplete, intended for 86 Whitehurst.
ATL 33 Wilt defended the pass.

2-10-ARI12 (00:42) ARI 12 Bower sacked by ATL 94 Dewit for a loss of 11 yards.
Sack allowed by ARI 68 Crisp.

3-21-ARI01 (00:26) ARI 12 Bower spiked the ball to stop the clock.

4-21-ARI01 (00:22) ARI 12 Bower pass completed to 87 Blaylock for 23 yards.
Tackled by ATL 36 Maxie.
--
1-10-ARI24 (00:05) ARI 12 Bower sacked by ATL 98 Tanner for a loss of 5 yards.
Sack allowed by ARI 51 Ross.

Game MVP: ATL 23 Marvin Van PeltArizona uses their three time outs successfully to try to get the ball back, and uses the spike to stop the clock on their desparation drive. I didn't pick these out because the AI looked pretty solid. They were just the first two I looked at. Point being, clearly it does things pretty well sometimes. There could be more at work here than just a "bug."

3b. Poor late-game playcalling doesn't affect me that often anyway. I'm so good, my team's games are rarely close at the end anyway. :p

FloridaFringe

11-28-2003, 11:02 AM

Originally posted by Easy Mac
ONCE AND FOR ALL. IN THE PLAYCALLING SCREEN, THEY ARE STILL YOUR PLAYERS! THEY STILL HAVE THE SAME NUMBER, ARE IN THE SAME ORDER, AND HAVE THE SAME ATTRIBUTES. IF YOU PUT THEM IN, THE STATS GO TO THE CORRECT PLAYER. ONLY THE NAMES HAVE CHANGED. THINK DRAGNET.

AND IS MARSHALL FAULK A WR? NO, ITS NOT REALLY A PROBLEM, SINCE RB's RARELY LINE UP AT WR and VICE VERSA.

I wouldn't say the end of game logic is a bug. It would be a bug if no matter your setting, a player threw on every down all game. I think it is a tweak that needs to be made, b/c there are occassions where my players actually have kicked FG's at the end of the game to win. (and I reported the damn tweak, so hopefully this will let it rest.)

Sorry for the caps, but I've posted this all before, but it seems people don't actually like to read.

This is what I was talking about in regards to having too many places where bugs are discussed. If there were an all-inclusive thread with information pertaining to each bug in the initial post then we wouldn't miss someone’s insight and then get yelled at for it.

BTW, just because we didn't see your post doesn't mean that we don't like to read.

This would solve the issues of the wrong players and the crash using the view button as far as I'm concerned.

Thanks for the info on the end of game logic SkyDog. It would appear as if this may need to be tweaked but may not necessarily be a Game-Stopper in my book any longer.

I'll just have to have faith that all will work out well in this respect.

The only remaining issue for me is the TCY to FOF import function. Is this bugged or is it working properly?

FloridaFringe

11-28-2003, 11:09 AM

This is the thread that I was referring to that would go a long way towards helping to organized the remaining issues:

Link (http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16701&highlight=bugs)

Nothing beats that first post, which made it a lot easier to track where FOF stood at all times prior to the patch. It also helped in comparing what the patch addressed in relation to what was reported.

Bonegavel

11-28-2003, 11:13 AM

Jim fixed the import problem with the patch.

FloridaFringe

11-28-2003, 11:16 AM

That's what I had thought but wasn't sure since others have brought it up recently.

The_herd

11-28-2003, 11:18 AM

Originally posted by FloridaFringe
The only remaining issue for me is the TCY to FOF import function. Is this bugged or is it working properly?

I personally haven't tested it, but OldGiants did run one and was pretty pleased I believe. The best TCY players were the best players entering the draft, in general. The kick holding thing could be a problem, but I really don't see it as a major one.

Thread link here:

http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/showthread.php?threadid=17533&highlight=TCY

Bonegavel

11-28-2003, 11:20 AM

Originally posted by FloridaFringe
That's what I had thought but wasn't sure since others have brought it up recently.

And, technically, it only affected WinXP users.

Senator

11-28-2003, 11:29 AM

Ben yelled at me today as well. I feel your pain skippy.

eh, not really.

MizzouRah

11-28-2003, 05:34 PM