Brown to Yanks

[McSweeny]

Yankees get Kevin Brown from the Dodgers for Jeff Weaver and two prospects according to ESPN radio. That didn't take long.

So they've got Brown replacing Pettite... Brown is 39 and has been on the DL more times than i can remember... let's hope for a few more :D

also, this just in. The Yankees only have enough minor leaguers to field one team

[McSweeny]

dola

also looks like the Yanks are throwing 3 million bucks at the Dodgers

[The_herd]

They must have run out of minor leaguers.

[sachmo71]

But if he's healthy, he'll do very well.

[Jon]

At least they got rid of Jeff Weaver.

[John Galt]

Originally posted by Jon
At least they got rid of Jeff Weaver.

And that about sums it up for me.

[heybrad]

Originally posted by John Galt
And that about sums it up for me.
Let me know if you still feel that way after Browns elbow snaps in two for about the 10th time.

[CentralMassHokie]

It's a good move for the Yankees - as Weaver obviously wasn't going to work out in New York.

It'll be interesting to see who the prospects are. The Yankees, at this point, may have the worst farm system in baseball, having dealt off all of their solid prospects over the past few seasons.

It's a questionable move for the Dodgers until we know who the prospects are. I'm not worried about Weaver - I think he'll put up a mid-3 ERA in Chavez Ravine, where he's not going to get killed by the longball.

It's only questionable since it seems like the Dodgers could easily have forced the Yankees to overpay for a starter, since that market is quickly dwindling and the Yanks were obviously desperate.

However, it may simply be that the Dodgers have another deal lined up (maybe throwing money at Vlad or Sheffield), and wanted to make the deal to free up payroll now, rather than bickering with the Yankees over how much of Weaver's salary they'd pick up.

[sterlingice]

There are big market players and there are small market players and he just went in the tank when he went to New York. It's along the same lines as to why Shef is a better fit in New York than Vlad. Gee... I hope that doesn't affect Javy any *grins evily*

SI

[sterlingice]

About the trade, how is this a loss for the Dodgers at all? It's like they gave up a headache to get something- like trading Carl Everett for $22M per year and A-Rod.

Sure, KBrown was one of the best in the business but he could never get healthy and last I heard they were trying to dump his contract. Instead they pick up Weaver, some cash, and a pair of prospects. I'm just missing something here, aren't I?

SI

[CentralMassHokie]

Wanted to follow up on Brown as a Yankee.

His Groundball to Flyball ratio for his career is 2.75. That's a great number.

Except when you realize the infield behind him is Boone-Jeter-Soriano-Giambi.

Ouch. He and Lieber are going to be cursing the Yankees defense this season.

[SackAttack]

Holy hell. I'd have traded Brown for Weaver in a heartbeat, just to get a younger, less injury-prone arm, and free up some payroll so that we can improve the offense.

Now you're telling me the Yankees are including a pair of prospects and $3 mil cash in the bargain?

Theo Epstein, Gerry Hunsicker...you're now on my Christmas card list. I love you both.

[John Galt]

Weaver is a horrible pitcher - it has nothing to do with NYC. His "good" numbers were in what was the best pitcher's park in the league (Comerica before they moved the walls in). He has stuff, but doesn't have a K/BB ratio to make you think he is going to be anything special. He'll look much better because LA is a pitcher's park like Comerica was, but he is still a below average pitcher who is a bit of a headcase. And is contract isn't great either (it is a Brown level albatross, but he is a crappy pitcher getting paid too much money).

As for Brown, he really isn't that injury prone. He start over 25 games every year from 1989 to 2000. Yes, he has had recent troubles and yes he is 39, but when he is healthy, he is awesome. I'd be willing to bet on his arm and that the last couple years were the aberration. No matter what, he is a ten-fold upgrade over Weaver.

[John Galt]

Originally posted by CentralMassHokie
Wanted to follow up on Brown as a Yankee.

His Groundball to Flyball ratio for his career is 2.75. That's a great number.

Except when you realize the infield behind him is Boone-Jeter-Soriano-Giambi.

Ouch. He and Lieber are going to be cursing the Yankees defense this season.

I agree with that. Jeter especially is a big giant whole. I think Boone is above average and Soriano's range is above average, but Giambi and Jeter are just plain awful.

[HornedFrog Purple]

Soriano makes Julio Franco in his worst year look good fielding 2nd base.

I like Kevin Brown. He is the best drafted pitcher the Rangers have ever had. Smart as a fox too.

[John Galt]

And this is how the contract numbers breakdown:

Weaver is due 18.75 million over the next 2 years.
Brown is due 30 million over the next 2 years.
The Yankees throw in 3 million.

So, is Brown worth $14 million over 2 years more than Weaver. Given that Weaver was worth next to nothing for the Yanks, I think Brown is a good $7 million a year pitcher.

As for the 2 prospects, we'll have to wait and see - I can't think of anyone left who I'd be worried about losing and they are probably C or D level prospects, so I don't think that part will matter.

[daedalus]

I agree with sterling and Josh. This is an incredible move for the Dodgers. They managed get rid of the Brown's contract and, somehow, get somebody back with talent in the process. Weaver isn't a 20-game winner but he'll log inning and he'll be less of a headcase than he was in New York. I don't even know how Evans managed to finagled $3M out of it in the process. Who these "prospects" are I don't think really matters. Pulse or, at LEAST, recent showing of pulse would be more than good enough. No questions about it, this is a financial move. The Dodgers have Green's and Dreifort's contracts to deal with still, getting rid of Brown's ridiculous contract is a big positive toward having some room to work with.

At the same time, I think this is a GREAT move for the Yankees. Brown may not be able to stay healthy but I don't think that really matters for the Yankees. They can afford to have Brown be out for part of the year as long as he's healthy for the playoff when they really want him for and where he excels. I don't know why they included the $3M for the Dodgers, though. I'd imagine just getting rid of Brown's contract would've been enough benefit for the Dodgers.

[SackAttack]

Originally posted by John Galt
Weaver is a horrible pitcher - it has nothing to do with NYC. His "good" numbers were in what was the best pitcher's park in the league (Comerica before they moved the walls in). He has stuff, but doesn't have a K/BB ratio to make you think he is going to be anything special. He'll look much better because LA is a pitcher's park like Comerica was, but he is still a below average pitcher who is a bit of a headcase. And is contract isn't great either (it is a Brown level albatross, but he is a crappy pitcher getting paid too much money).

Not really. He's owed $15.5 mil over the next two years. Brown is owed $30 mil. I'll agree with you as far as Brown being a much better pitcher. That's not really debateable. The fact is, though, if the Yankees really are paying for $3 mil of Weaver's contract, that represents an effective savings level of nearly $9 million each of the next two years.

Look at the Dodger offense last season, and tell me you don't think $9 million could be put to good use somewhere. Never mind the money freed up by the departure of Ashby, Jordan, and McGriff.

As things stand, the Dodgers still look to have a strong pitching staff. Will it be as good as last year's? I doubt it. The rotation as it stands right now, though, includes Hideo Nomo (who's been the most reliable arm in the rotation since returning to LA), Kaz Ishii (who CAN be good...but is often inconsistent), Odalis Perez (barring any kind of a trade), Jeff Weaver, and, if he's finally healthy, Darren Dreifort.

If Dreifort can't stay healthy, or Perez gets traded, Edwin Jackson probably gets thrown into that mix as well. Not sure what the status of Wilson Alvarez is/will be, but I'd imagine he'll find a way in there, too.

Their bullpen will still be solid, even losing Paul Quantrill (who was an absolute horse. I'm sorry to see him go), and we still have the game's best closer in Eric Gagne. The pitching, while it will suffer from losing Brown, will still be more than good enough to win, so long as Evans uses the money he's saved to upgrade the offense.

I wouldn't mind seeing Tejada or Nomar in a Dodger uniform, although acquiring either of those players would have obvious effects on the rebuilding of the farm system.

I'd love for Evans to sign Vlad, but that's just one piece of an offensive puzzle that's full of holes. Beltre is at third - for now, Ventura can play first, but I don't think he's the long term answer, LoDuca is supposedly being shopped, Green's in right, Roberts is in center, and Izturis is in the middle infield.

What we're left with is holes in left field and second base, potential issues at first and catcher, and, if the long-standing rumors about finding a center fielder to replace Roberts come to fruition, possibly a hole there. I don't agree with that, incidentally. I'd prefer to keep Roberts.

I don't understand why LoDuca is being shopped, but I'd prefer to keep him there, too. The only thing I can figure is that Evans thinks he can afford Pudge AND still fill the holes at left, first, and second.

We'll see how it shakes out.

[SackAttack]

Originally posted by John Galt
And this is how the contract numbers breakdown:

Weaver is due 18.75 million over the next 2 years.

Everything I've seen, ESPN aside, says he's owed $15.5 mil over the next two years. $6.25 mil in '04, $9.25 mil in '05. So unless there's some kind of contract incentive, or deferred money that I'm missing, that adds up to $15.5 mil.


Brown is due 30 million over the next 2 years.
The Yankees throw in 3 million.

Correct. The $3 mil effectively makes the contract worth $6.25 mil/year over the next two for LA, so again, unless I'm missing an incentive or deferred money, the fact that ESPN is the only one reporting a $19 mil figure tends to make me think that number is a little high.

So, is Brown worth $14 million over 2 years more than Weaver. Given that Weaver was worth next to nothing for the Yanks, I think Brown is a good $7 million a year pitcher.

I'm not denying that it's a good move for the Yankees. I just think it's a better move for LA than a lot of people seem to think.

As for the 2 prospects, we'll have to wait and see - I can't think of anyone left who I'd be worried about losing and they are probably C or D level prospects, so I don't think that part will matter.

Frankly, it won't matter if the two kids pan out. If they do, that's just an added bonus.

[John Galt]

Josh,

I guess I have different contract numbers for Weaver (mine were from ESPN), but either way, Weaver isn't cheap. I agree that the Dodgers could use the extra cash for offense, but this is a massive downgrade in pitching quality. Maybe Weaver will turn it around a bit, but I doubt it. Either way, I think Dreifort, Weaver, Perez, Ishii, Jackson, and Alvarez in your pitching staff is waaayyyy risky. That isn't one giant question mark, it is six giant question marks behind Nomo. They had pitching depth to deal, but I think getting rid of Ishii or Perez was probably a safer course (since Dreifort is truly not movable). It will be interesting to see what they do with the extra money.

[SackAttack]

Originally posted by John Galt
Josh,

I guess I have different contract numbers for Weaver (mine were from ESPN), but either way, Weaver isn't cheap. I agree that the Dodgers could use the extra cash for offense, but this is a massive downgrade in pitching quality. Maybe Weaver will turn it around a bit, but I doubt it. Either way, I think Dreifort, Weaver, Perez, Ishii, Jackson, and Alvarez in your pitching staff is waaayyyy risky. That isn't one giant question mark, it is six giant question marks behind Nomo. They had pitching depth to deal, but I think getting rid of Ishii or Perez was probably a safer course (since Dreifort is truly not movable). It will be interesting to see what they do with the extra money.

John,

That's the key. For what it's worth, I dug up the original article from when Weaver signed his extension:

http://espn.go.com/mlb/news/2002/0122/1315552.html

That article reports the same numbers I've been quoting - $6.25 mil this year, $9.25 mil next year - but also mentions that he had signed a $2.35 mil, 1 year deal (probably arbitration or somesuch) prior to the contract extension. I don't think that's relevant to the total, though, which is why I wonder where that extra $3.25 mil is coming from. Could it be a transposition, and he's still owed the original contract amount from before the extension? Possibly. I don't think that's terribly likely.

As far as the question marks go, I'm not terribly concerned. Edwin Jackson probably won't have a season like Tim Hudson, Barry Zito, etc had in their first couple of years. I'm not expecting that. But I do think he can be a reasonably solid starter this year, with a high upside.

Ishii has always been inconsistent as a Dodger, due to his inability to throw first-pitch strikes in the early innings. He still manages to put up okay numbers, though. If Colburn can ever get him to be more aggressive, he could end up being the "Japanese Greg Maddux" he was supposed to have been.

Dreifort is absolutely a huge question mark. No doubt there.

Perez/Weaver, I tend to think, are about equal. Perez has shown flashes of absolute brilliance, and I'd hate to give up on that talent, but we'll see if Evans wants to deal with the headaches he occasionally stirs up with his mouth. Weaver has been a headcase for the Yankees, but I think that was a combination of a fishbowl environment as well as a hitter's park. I look at him as an Ismael Valdes/Chan Ho Park type. Yeah, not the greatest comparisons, but what I'm getting at is that if he's making half his starts in Dodger Stadium, he's going to do just fine. The media here aren't nearly as rabid as the New York press.

The key, though, is what Evans does with the money he's saving. If this is just a move to cut payroll for new ownership, and there's no intent to upgrade the offense, then I start to have some concerns about it. If he takes the $9 mil he's saving annually on Brown, along with the money he's saving on some of the free agents whose contracts have expired, and he does something to get the pitchers some run support, then this is a no-brainer, slam dunk deal in the long run.

As of right now, I think it's a fantastic deal for both sides. Ask me again in September, and I'll tell you if my opinion has changed any.

[CentralMassHokie]

I think more of Weaver's upside than do a lot of people here - he's still only 27, has decent K/9 and K/BB rates, and has a G/F split made for Dodger Stadium.

The reason this isn't a slam dunk trade for the Dodgers yet is that they didn't get enough. Jeff Weaver, two prospects from the Yankees massively depleted system, and 3 million dollars?

It's hard to believe that they couldn't have gotten more - either from another team or by holding out for more from the Yankees. The Dodgers badly need offensive help. The money saved on Brown's deal will help out, but they've now opened a huge gaping hole in their rotation, and have so many holes on offense that there's no way to grab a top flight starter. I like Hideo, but he's not a #1 - the Dodgers are going to be running out Nomo, Ishii, Weaver, Perez (who they've been trying to deal to anybody), and Dreifort. Granted, that might be enough to compete in the NL West, but it won't get you out of the first round of the playoffs.

Think the Red Sox wouldn't have thought about dealing Nomar and money (or BK Kim) for Brown and Izturis (and maybe a prospect or two)?

[rexallllsc]

Originally posted by John Galt


As for Brown, he really isn't that injury prone.

HAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[John Galt]

Originally posted by rexallllsc
HAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHA

And yet another worthless post without warrant or insight from rexallllsc - what a surprise.

[John Galt]

Originally posted by CentralMassHokie
I think more of Weaver's upside than do a lot of people here - he's still only 27, has decent K/9 and K/BB rates, and has a G/F split made for Dodger Stadium.

The reason this isn't a slam dunk trade for the Dodgers yet is that they didn't get enough. Jeff Weaver, two prospects from the Yankees massively depleted system, and 3 million dollars?

It's hard to believe that they couldn't have gotten more - either from another team or by holding out for more from the Yankees. The Dodgers badly need offensive help. The money saved on Brown's deal will help out, but they've now opened a huge gaping hole in their rotation, and have so many holes on offense that there's no way to grab a top flight starter. I like Hideo, but he's not a #1 - the Dodgers are going to be running out Nomo, Ishii, Weaver, Perez (who they've been trying to deal to anybody), and Dreifort. Granted, that might be enough to compete in the NL West, but it won't get you out of the first round of the playoffs.

Think the Red Sox wouldn't have thought about dealing Nomar and money (or BK Kim) for Brown and Izturis (and maybe a prospect or two)?

I think Weaver's K/9 rate is the most troubling reason to believe he isn't going to get much better.

And I think you are a little optimistic regarding Brown's value in this market (and the Red Sox would NEVER take Izturis).

[tucker342]

Originally posted by John Galt


As for Brown, he really isn't that injury prone. He start over 25 games every year from 1989 to 2000.

That's the thing though: he was fine from 1989 to 2000 in the past couple of years, he has had tons of injury problems.


So right now I would say that the Dodgers got the better deal, if Brown ends up being healthy this year, then the Yankees got the better deal.

[Bad-example]

Hoping this is the kind of trade that makes both teams worse.

Also hoping the Dodgers bring back Ricky Henderson. :)

[CentralMassHokie]

Originally posted by John Galt
I think Weaver's K/9 rate is the most troubling reason to believe he isn't going to get much better.

5.93 K/9 (career) rate isn't horrible. It would put him in the top 30 NL pitchers in 2003. Which is about right for a #2/#3 starter.

2.31 K/BB (career) rate puts him in the top 22 of NL pitchers in 2003. Again, perfectly reasonable #s for a #2/#3 starter.

Last season was his first big step down in K/9 (he's generally fluctuated right aroun 6 K/9). And I think that can easily be attributed to his rather tumultuous season.

So, I think Weaver, who's going to see a drastic reduction in the number of HRs he gives up, and is going to be pitching in front of a remarkably improved defense, will see a pretty dramatic improvement in his counting stats.

Even in his poor season last year, I think Weaver's DIPS ERA works out to be something like 4.30 or so. Weaver is going to be just fine in roomy Dodger Stadium.

And I think you are a little optimistic regarding Brown's value in this market (and the Red Sox would NEVER take Izturis).

Considering the payday that Andy Pettitte got, and the fact that the Phillies gave up what they did to get Eric Milton, I don't think it's hard to believe there's someone who'd give up more than 3 million dollars, 2 mediocre prospects, and a starter who projects to be a 2 or 3.

And if you think the Sox wouldn't take Izturis, you're crazy. A Nomar/BK Kim for Brown/Izturis trade (throw some money in there somewhere) would clear the way for the Sox to offer Tejada the SS job. Izturis moves to 2B, and the Sox have greatly improved their IF defense with a moderate step down offensively.

The Sox are looking for *anyone* to fill the second base slot right now, as long as their defense is better than Todd "The Statue" Walker. Izturis, while an offensive hole, might put Derek Lowe back on his 2002 path.

Edited to remove unintended bold

[SackAttack]

Originally posted by CentralMassHokie
Considering the payday that Andy Pettitte got, and the fact that the Phillies gave up what they did to get Eric Milton, I don't think it's hard to believe there's someone who'd give up more than 3 million dollars, 2 mediocre prospects, and a starter who projects to be a 2 or 3.

Isn't Milton left-handed? For that matter, isn't he quite a bit younger than Brown? I think you're overestimating his value. He's 39 years old, he has $30 million left on his contract, and he hasn't been remotely healthy the last two or three seasons. The Yankees are about the only team that can afford to take that kind of chance on a pitcher, because they can always replace him if necessary. Frankly, I'm thrilled that LA talked the Yanks out of $3 mil and a couple of kids, even if they never pan out.

And if you think the Sox wouldn't take Izturis, you're crazy. A Nomar/BK Kim for Brown/Izturis trade (throw some money in there somewhere) would clear the way for the Sox to offer Tejada the SS job. Izturis moves to 2B, and the Sox have greatly improved their IF defense with a moderate step down offensively.

I don't know that I'd move Izturis to second base, though. I think the Sox are better off either sticking with the infield they've got, or pursuing A-Rod to play short. Izturis is an inexpensive option, but he's got no bat. In the AL, that's a deficiency you can't afford.

[John Galt]

By never take Izturis, I mean I don't think any sabermatically inclined GM like Epstein, with James as his cohort would want Izturis. You could never convince them that his defense is worth his bottom of the barrell offense. They would put any statute out there rather than have Izturis as their number 9 hitter. That being said, I still think you overestimate Brown's value because of his age. The Phillies gave way too much for Milton and Pettite is overpaid - I won't disagree on either point. However, Vazquez is a much more valuable pitcher and that trade was pretty even. Not everyone has lost their minds. And Milton and Pettite are still (in some people's eyes) in their primes whereas Brown is clinging on to the end of his career. I like Brown and think this is good trade, but would have been extremely surprised if they could have gotten Nomar for Brown straight up (much less with BK).

I also don't think the Sox are particularly high on Tejada because of his OBP with high money demands and an A-Rod scenario seems much more likely.

As for Weaver, maybe you are right and last year was his k/9 aberration, but he has been pitching a long time in this league and has never had a good park-neutral season. Yes, he is still young, but even his best season so far is nothing to brag about. Sure, in LA he'll look much better and won't give up many long balls, but I still don't think he is that good (and may not be one of their best 5 starters).

[rexallllsc]

Originally posted by John Galt
And yet another worthless post without warrant or insight from rexallllsc - what a surprise.

Ok, you said:
As for Brown, he really isn't that injury prone.

From the ESPN.com article:
Injuries limited Brown to 19 starts in 2001 and 10 in 2002, but he rebounded to make 32 starts last season, when he had the second-lowest ERA in the NL behind Jason Schmidt.

Yeah, he's not injury prone. Good call. How often he got hurt became comical here in LA...

[CentralMassHokie]

Brown is 39 with an ERA+ over the past 5 seasons of:

148
167
152
79
169

He's averaging over 200 IP over the past 5 seasons. He was hurt in 2001 and 2002, which accounts for his dip in IP and ERA+. He obviously bounced back last season when he threw 211 innings.

His K/9 and K/BB rates are as good or better than they were 10 years ago (with his K/BB rate slipping a bit in 2003).

I see no evidence that he's slowing down. He's got a large contract figure, but honestly, he's still a #1 pitcher. Is he a bigger risk than Schilling? Yeah, but he may also be a better pitcher.

I'm a die hard Sox fan. It hurts me to talk about a solid Yankees trade. It hurts me that they're going to have 3 legit #1 starters.

It also hurts me that I think Javier Vazquez may very well be more of a injury risk than Brown.

I still think that the Dodgers got the short end here. They gave up a legit #1 starter, who's showing no signs of slowing down, for a pitcher who's got #2 or 3 upside at best, 3 million bucks, and 2 mediocre prospects (at best - it's the Yankees farm system).

Now - if the Dodgers can spin Weaver into JD Drew, as is being rumored, that's got potential - but it still leaves them woefully short in their rotation and their batting order.

I'm going to wait to see what the Dodgers have lined up, but if this is their big move of the winter, it doesn't seem to be a positive one for me.

This still pretty clearly seems like a Yankee-slanted trade.

[SackAttack]

I don't think it would have been possible for LA to get fair value for a healthy, productive Brown. The fact of the matter is, with new ownership inbound, with the size of Brown's contract, with his age, with his recent health issues, in the current contract environment, for LA to get Weaver, free up $9 mil per in payroll, and get two kids in the bargain still has to be considered a solid trade.

The caveat being, IF LA turns the payroll savings into an improved offense. If they make this move and then stand pat, then, yeah, they got tooken, as my grandpappy used to say.

[John Galt]

Originally posted by rexallllsc
Ok, you said:


From the ESPN.com article:
Injuries limited Brown to 19 starts in 2001 and 10 in 2002, but he rebounded to make 32 starts last season, when he had the second-lowest ERA in the NL behind Jason Schmidt.

Yeah, he's not injury prone. Good call. How often he got hurt became comical here in LA...

And yet, your first post said none of this and instead you made a snide remark without a warrant. Also, you may note that my initial post addressed this issue. I said his injuries affected only 2 years of a long career - this is not enough to say someone is "injury-prone." You can disagree with my point and even argue against it (as many intelligent posters have demonstrated in this thread), but as usual you offer nothing and are rude. And that is why I'm not surprised. Go back to your hackers and try to destroy the board again. :rolleyes:

[daedalus]

CentralMassHokie,

I agree with John and Josh that you're vastly overestimating Brown's value. Talent-wise, he's unquestionably a top of the rotation starter. But this is a buyer's market right now and talent is only part of the equation for any trades. (Otherwise, any discussion of Ramirez-Rodriguez as a possible trade would be at best laughable.) More teams than not are looking to unload salaries. There are, maybe, 3-4 teams that are taking on money. Off-hand, I can think of the Yanks, the Red Sox, the Cubs and the Phillies. The Phils took Milton, he's left-handed, younger and about $7M cheaper (and they don't to pay for charter jets to keep him "close to his home"). The Cubs aren't exactly hurting for arms at the moment. The Sox just took on Schilling. Can you name another buyer that the Dodgers can use as "leverage" to try to wring more out of the Yankees?

[rexallllsc]

Originally posted by John Galt
And yet, your first post said none of this and instead you made a snide remark without a warrant. Also, you may note that my initial post addressed this issue. I said his injuries affected only 2 years of a long career - this is not enough to say someone is "injury-prone." You can disagree with my point and even argue against it (as many intelligent posters have demonstrated in this thread), but as usual you offer nothing and are rude. And that is why I'm not surprised. Go back to your hackers and try to destroy the board again. :rolleyes:

I shouldn't have to tell you. Looking over his time with the Dodgers would tell you all you needed to know.

Injuries have only affected 2 of years of his career...even taking that statement at face-value, those 2 years have both come in the past 3. I don't have to "disagree" or "argue" against your post...it was flat out wrong. The guy is injury prone.

You can say "as usual"...but I haven't made a "rude" post like that in a long time.

[BigJohn&TheLions]

I hope Weaver wins 20 games and Brown pitches 20 innings...

[John Galt]

Originally posted by rexallllsc
I shouldn't have to tell you. Looking over his time with the Dodgers would tell you all you needed to know.

Injuries have only affected 2 of years of his career...even taking that statement at face-value, those 2 years have both come in the past 3. I don't have to "disagree" or "argue" against your post...it was flat out wrong. The guy is injury prone.

You can say "as usual"...but I haven't made a "rude" post like that in a long time.

I think it is crazy to call someone "injury-prone" after a decade of durability because of one serious injury and a couple small (some related, compensating ones). Is he an injury risk? No doubt? Is he injury-prone? No, I think he is in a whole different category than the Jeffrey Hammonds of the world.

As for the "as usual," you are right. I apologize. You used to do a lot of shit on this board that I didn't like, but I shouldn't dredge it up again. Sorry.

[MrBug708]

Everyone starts out healthy at one timein their career John Galt, but age eventually catches up to them. I'm sure Grant Hill, at one time, showed no signs of being injury prone at a certain stage of his career.

[Hammer755]

Originally posted by John Galt
As for Weaver, maybe you are right and last year was his k/9 aberration, but he has been pitching a long time in this league and has never had a good park-neutral season. Yes, he is still young, but even his best season so far is nothing to brag about. Sure, in LA he'll look much better and won't give up many long balls, but I still don't think he is that good (and may not be one of their best 5 starters).

Weaver has posted multiple good park-neutral seasons.

ERA+
1999 = 89
2000 = 111
2001 = 109
2002 - Det = 132
2002 - NYY = 108
2002 - TOT = 121
2003 = 73

Combine this with the solid infield defense he'll get in LA, I think that Weaver has a good chance to bounce back.

[sterlingice]

Now I feel like a sabermetric-ignorant putz. What's ERA+? You have a brief synopsis or should I just go looking around (I figured I was in pretty good shape because I knew win shares, vorp, and a couple of others).

SI

[Hammer755]

Originally posted by sterlingice
Now I feel like a sabermetric-ignorant putz. What's ERA+? You have a brief synopsis or should I just go looking around (I figured I was in pretty good shape because I knew win shares, vorp, and a couple of others).

SI

From Baseball-Reference

ERA+ - the ratio of the league's ERA (adjusted to the pitcher's ballpark) to that of the pitcher. > 100 is above average and < 100 is below average. lgERA / ERA

[rexallllsc]

Originally posted by John Galt
I think it is crazy to call someone "injury-prone" after a decade of durability because of one serious injury and a couple small (some related, compensating ones). Is he an injury risk? No doubt? Is he injury-prone? No, I think he is in a whole different category than the Jeffrey Hammonds of the world.


I disagree with that because everyone is an "injury risk" if you look at it that way.

I'll defer to MrBug, ChiefRum, and Sack Attacks view on this one...whattya say guys, KB: Injury Prone?

[rkmsuf]

let's hope so...

[ctmason]

I would just like to add that I still don't like anyone that played for Georgia Tech.

[rexallllsc]

FYI: The Daily News reported today that Brown went on the DL 10 times from 2000-2003, for a total of 264 days.

[SackAttack]

Brown has had exactly one season in LA that wasn't marred by injury at some point. The justification for his contract size early on was his durability up to that point.

It's kind of like how in movies, you never ever say "What could possibly go wrong?" Murphy's Law, doncha know.

Since coming to LA, he has been injury-prone. At his age, I don't see that changing.

[Chief Rum]

I think he is injury-prone because of his gae. Yes, he had good durability when he was younger, but this is what happens when you get older: things break down more.

At this point in his career and in his life, yes, I would call KB injury-prone.

CR

[daedalus]

But that's why New York is the perfect place for Brown to be. The Yankees won't go down in flame just because Brown will miss 2 months. Mussina and Vazquez (if he holds up in the NY spotlight and I'd imagine he has a solid chance to) can definitely keep the team competitive. I'm still not sure of Contreras' effectiveness as a starter. Because of the type of injury, Lieber is also an uncertainty. But I think Cashman (appropriate name for the team but an underrated GM, in my opinion) will figure something out. Well, he'll try to if Steinbrenner lets him. But Mussina-Vazquez-Brown in any playoff serie would definitely be a threat.

[SackAttack]

Looks like the deal is a little more concrete here.

Yanks get Brown, obviously.

Dodgers get Jeff Weaver, $2.6 million (the $400k less covers the difference in what the Yanks had to do to meet Brown's contract perks), Yhency Brazoban (who?), and a player to be named.

Still not sure who the PTBNL is, but at least there's a little more information here. Anybody else have any info on this Brazoban kid?

[The_herd]

23 yo Righty, was a part time closer for 3 of the Yanks minor league teams last season. High strikeout totals, but, as always, high walk totals to go along with it. Seems to have some serious control issues, with 64IP 69K and 31BB and 8WP. Career minor leagure ERA 5.34, in 2 seasons.

[SackAttack]

And this is the guy Dan Evans is, and I quote, "very excited" about?

God help us all.

[daedalus]

If he has 69 K in 64 IP then he's likely to have a good fastball. Evans is a tools guy.

Y'know . . . like drafting Billy Bene when the reigning Baseball America College Player of the Year and his 58-game hitting streak was on the board*. Yeah.

*Yes, I know that was pre-Evans. But he's stated that he's continuing that retarded philosophy. Yikes and two gadzooks.

[Buccaneer]

I still don't understand something. One of Brown's motivation was this


"I'm going to be closer to home, get a chance to see my kids more," he said. "It's been about three years since I've seen my kids play baseball. Hopefully, there will be a time here and there where we'll have a day off and I'll have a chance to sneak home and see my kids play."


I've heard the same thing with Junior and with a few other players. Are these traveling by camel or something? I've flown cross-country many times, even traveling on to smaller cities. Let's say you catch a red-eye out of LA, you would be in Macon by morning. Out of NY, you would get there 2am instead of 7am, big whoop. I know when flying west to east you lose time zones and add a couple of hours to flight time but you can make it up by staying later (I think). Or better, can't you just charter a Lear if it's that important? I perceive that such statements are a bit of a red herring.

[daedalus]

He doesn't have to charter a Lear. He's got 12 trips per season in his contract where the team has to do it for him. It just sounds really good.

When he signed with the Dodgers, I was under the impression that the Braves were one of the contenders. If "being close to the kids" is REALLY that important then, y'know, can't get much closer in MLB.

[sterlingice]

Originally posted by Buccaneer
I still don't understand something. One of Brown's motivation was this



I've heard the same thing with Junior and with a few other players. Are these traveling by camel or something? I've flown cross-country many times, even traveling on to smaller cities. Let's say you catch a red-eye out of LA, you would be in Macon by morning. Out of NY, you would get there 2am instead of 7am, big whoop. I know when flying west to east you lose time zones and add a couple of hours to flight time but you can make it up by staying later (I think). Or better, can't you just charter a Lear if it's that important? I perceive that such statements are a bit of a red herring.

I've always been of that same opinion: if you're citing things like "living closer to family", you'd better be signing with the team your family is *in*, otherwise you're just lying to the media. It's like Mike Hampton and his "better schools in Denver" thing. Hope his kids GPA is as high as his ERA in Coors. I'm sure that was well worth the extra $500K per year you got going to Denver instead of staying in Houston.

Uhoh, this just in:
"The Camel Herders Union of Macon (CHUM, for short) has issued the following statement:
'We think Andradksjfaidnvuianeiuorhoiadsfasdfhasdf's comment about our noble creatures was disparaging and out of line. The camel is the fastest land animal across the desert and we will not have him insulting our stock' "

SI