... dot the i, cross the t - A Rod a Bo-Sock [Archive]

tucker342

12-16-2003, 11:47 PM

I guess this answers my question:

The union would get involved if there was a renegotiation of A-Rod's contract; any renegotiation would have to add some benefit for the player, according to baseball's labor contract.

but if a player agrees to a deal, then why would the players union have any say in it?

SackAttack

12-16-2003, 11:49 PM

Mostly because the effect on the player's contract has an effect on union members as a whole.

To put it another way, do you think Tejada would have gotten $12 million a season if A-Rod had two weeks ago agreed to restructure his contract to, say, $7 mil/year?

A premium player's contract value is a bargaining tool for both sides. Owners want to depress values, players would prefer inflation.

astralhaze

12-16-2003, 11:58 PM

I wouldn't dot or cross anything just yet.

astralhaze

12-17-2003, 12:16 AM

Sounds like it is going to happen, but there is still a whole lot to be worked out.

Link (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=1687013)

Franklinnoble

12-17-2003, 12:29 AM

Originally posted by sabotai
cross the t's and dot the......lower case j's.

Am I the only other person who got this?

finkenst

12-17-2003, 12:50 AM

nope.

but don't forget to double-dot your umlauted vowels.

mckerney

12-17-2003, 01:40 AM

These guys have been saying its a done deal for a while:

http://www.bostondirtdogs.com/

Obviously am not sure of thier accuracy.

DeToxRox

12-17-2003, 06:11 AM

I got the Waynes World 2 ref, don't you fret.

Ksyrup

12-17-2003, 06:53 AM

Originally posted by astralhaze
Sounds like it is going to happen, but there is still a whole lot to be worked out.

Link (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=1687013)

That story is 3 days old. Much has happened since.

Aside from the main deal, other deals are being worked on:

"The Red Sox, Dodgers and White Sox are discussing a deal that would send Magglio Ordonez to Boston, Nomar Garciaparra to Los Angeles and Odalis Perez and Guillermo Mota to Chicago.

Greg Miller likely would go to Boston in the deal and then could be packaged with Manny Ramirez in the Alex Rodriguez deal. There's also a version of the deal in which the Dodgers are absent and the White Sox would keep Nomar and also get Scott Williamson. Considering that Ordonez is due to make $2.75 million more than Nomar next season, the trade wouldn't seem to make a lot of sense for Boston. If the Red Sox didn't know he'd be unhappy, they'd be better off keeping Nomar and moving him to third, with Bill Mueller going to second."

HornedFrog Purple

12-17-2003, 07:55 AM

May Tom Hicks, Chan Ho Park and John Hart all rot in hell.

This money issue has nothing to do with A-Rod, it has all to do with Chan Ho. I hope the punk blows out his arm and never pitches again.

John Hart is the destroyer of franchises. I predicted it would take 3 seasons of his genius to ruin this team and I was wrong. It took 2 and an offseason.

Tom Hicks quite frankly is a liar and I will leave it at that.

It just sucks to be a Rangers fan. Bring back Eddie Chiles, at least he was a better liar.

ScottVib

12-17-2003, 08:43 AM

Just heard on the sports talk radio here in DC that the reports are that the Red Sox have a tentative deal with the White Sox to move Garciaparra for Magglio Ordonez. (The report cites Newsday and is quoted on ESPN)

KevinNU7

12-17-2003, 08:55 AM

Magglio + ARod > Manny + Nomar

Alan T

12-17-2003, 09:02 AM

Originally posted by KevinNU7
Magglio + ARod > Manny + Nomar

Both in talent and in salary....

I don't understand why they would trade for Magglio if their goal in moving Nomar after the Arod deal was to save salary.. Magglio makes more money than Nomar, and we know that Arod makes more than manny..

Now dont get me wrong, I have no problem with them spending money, it just does not seem to be following what they have been saying all along as their intent.

rkmsuf

12-17-2003, 09:05 AM

Originally posted by Alan T
Both in talent and in salary....

I don't understand why they would trade for Magglio if their goal in moving Nomar after the Arod deal was to save salary.. Magglio makes more money than Nomar, and we know that Arod makes more than manny..

Now dont get me wrong, I have no problem with them spending money, it just does not seem to be following what they have been saying all along as their intent.

They have mentioned recently a willingness to exceed the luxury tax...

Alan T

12-17-2003, 09:25 AM

ESPN is announcing that Nomar has been traded with Williamson to Chicago for Ordonez .

This is hingent on the Arod deal however before this one goes through.

ScottVib

12-17-2003, 09:53 AM

Reportedly both Nomar and Ordonez are slated to make 14 million next year. Ordonez might be willing to take less then Nomar on an extension.

astralhaze

12-17-2003, 10:09 AM

If the A-Rod trade goes through and the Red Sox then turn around and trade Nomar for Magglie...wow, I don't quite know what to say other than Theo Epstein is a genius. Even if these moves do not go through, I view Epstein as Billy Beane with a payroll.

Draft Dodger

12-17-2003, 10:12 AM

Originally posted by astralhaze
If the A-Rod trade goes through and the Red Sox then turn around and trade Nomar for Magglie...wow, I don't quite know what to say other than Theo Epstein is a genius. Even if these moves do not go through, I view Epstein as Billy Beane with a payroll.

I look at him as a Dan Duquette with intelligence.

Alan T

12-17-2003, 10:14 AM

Originally posted by Draft Dodger
I look at him as a Dan Duquette with intelligence.

But I do miss all the fun Dan Duquette jokes :)

I still enjoy the "More days in first place" quote :)

judicial clerk

12-17-2003, 10:20 AM

I think of him as a punk kid who stole my job.

If this goes through, look for Cashman to go after Barry Bonds.

judicial clerk

12-17-2003, 10:20 AM

and Eric Gagne

heybrad

12-17-2003, 10:23 AM

Makes perfect sense that Dan Evans (Dodgers GM) will somehow screw up and come out of this with nothing.

SirFozzie

12-17-2003, 11:12 AM

hey, brad.

Neuqua

12-17-2003, 01:23 PM

What is this?

Now I hear my favorite non-Cub is going to be playing for the Southside? What am i supposed to do now? I may actually be forced to watch a few White Sox games this year. How sad.

:(

Bosco

12-17-2003, 01:35 PM

Originally posted by Neuqua
What is this?

Now I hear my favorite non-Cub is going to be playing for the Southside? What am i supposed to do now? I may actually be forced to watch a few White Sox games this year. How sad.

:(

If you're talking about Nomar I wouldn't worry about it. The White Sox are going to turn around and trade him to LA for Perez and Mota.

rkmsuf

12-17-2003, 01:39 PM

Originally posted by Bosco
If you're talking about Nomar I wouldn't worry about it. The White Sox are going to turn around and trade him to LA for Perez and Mota.

Bosco! Bosco!

Momma?

Bosco...

SirFozzie

12-17-2003, 01:40 PM

WEEI's Sean McAdam is reporting that the MLBPA Union Head Gene Orza has COMPLETELY shot down the Sox-ARod proposal to restructure the contract of A-Rod.

Things are going to get MIGHTY interesting from here. We already had one superstar (Barry Bonds) withdraw from the MLBPA. Will we see a 2nd?

rkmsuf

12-17-2003, 01:42 PM

Orza has a complex to be viewed as the man and continue to prove that the Players Union is the end all, be all force on the planet.

A-Rod should opt out...f-them...

Ksyrup

12-17-2003, 01:43 PM

Originally posted by SirFozzie
Things are going to get MIGHTY interesting from here. We already had one superstar (Barry Bonds) withdraw from the MLBPA. Will we see a 2nd?

Bonds did not withdraw from the MLBPA. He withdrew from the licensing program. He's still eligible for his pension, don't you worry.

JonInMiddleGA

12-17-2003, 02:05 PM

Whew, what a relief to know that Barry will still get a pension.

I've worried long & hard about whether he'd be able to scrape by after retirement.

In the past ten years, Bonds has earned just over 98 million dollars in salary
http://asp.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/salaries/playerdetail.aspx?lname=Bonds&player=115

Bosco

12-17-2003, 02:11 PM

Gammons said the deal will be done by 4:30.

rkmsuf

12-17-2003, 02:13 PM

Originally posted by Bosco
Gammons said the deal will be done by 4:30.

Of course...clearly trumping the Yankees deal with Sheffield...

dawgfan

12-17-2003, 02:13 PM

Originally posted by Ksyrup
Aside from the main deal, other deals are being worked on:

"The Red Sox, Dodgers and White Sox are discussing a deal that would send Magglio Ordonez to Boston, Nomar Garciaparra to Los Angeles and Odalis Perez and Guillermo Mota to Chicago.

How in the hell is Seattle not figuring out a way to ship Freddy Garcia and change to the White Sox for Magglio Ordonez?

Bill Bavasi didn't impress me with his resume and he's reinforcing that opinion with his performance so far...

Chief Rum

12-17-2003, 03:09 PM

Originally posted by dawgfan
How in the hell is Seattle not figuring out a way to ship Freddy Garcia and change to the White Sox for Magglio Ordonez?

Bill Bavasi didn't impress me with his resume and he's reinforcing that opinion with his performance so far...

A World Series championship doesn't impress you? :)

Seriously, it ain't on there, but that team that won the 2002 Series in Anaheim had a whole lot more to do with Bavasi than our current GM Stoneman (credit to Stoneman not screwing it up). I think Bavasi is quite underrated. Give him a chance up there. If it makes you feel any better, as an Angels fan I was rather unhappy to hear that the M's had signed Bavasi.

CR

QuikSand

12-17-2003, 03:12 PM

Originally posted by dawgfan
How in the hell is Seattle not figuring out a way to ship Freddy Garcia and change to the White Sox for Magglio Ordonez?

Should he be able to produce loaves and fishes for the whole team, too? Walk on water?

Ksyrup

12-17-2003, 03:52 PM

Originally posted by Bosco
If you're talking about Nomar I wouldn't worry about it. The White Sox are going to turn around and trade him to LA for Perez and Mota.

Not according to ESPN (through rotoworld):

According to ESPN's Peter Gammons, talks between Red Sox owner John Henry and Rangers owner Tom Hicks hit a snag late last night.

There are still some significant money issues to be worked out in order to get Alex Rodriguez to Boston. The commissioner's office wants things decided one way or another by tomorrow afternoon, but it might not happen. As of right now, it appears that if the deal does get done, Nomar Garciaparra will be sent to Chicago and stay there, with the White Sox also getting Scott Williamson and perhaps Byung-Hyun Kim in return for Magglio Ordonez and a prospect or two. That could lead to the Dodgers stepping up their pursuit of Ivan Rodriguez (probably) or Vladimir Guerrero (less likely). Another possible result of the trade would be a Jose Valentin-for-Freddy Garcia swap between the White Sox and Mariners.

chinaski

12-17-2003, 04:18 PM

ESPN is now reporting the players union has rejected the restructured Arod contract. Boston deal is still on hold.

General Mike

12-17-2003, 04:44 PM

Originally posted by chinaski
ESPN is now reporting the players union has rejected the restructured Arod contract. Boston deal is still on hold.
Fuck the union

dawgfan

12-17-2003, 04:55 PM

Originally posted by QuikSand
Should he be able to produce loaves and fishes for the whole team, too? Walk on water?

OK, given that Boston is apparently willing to deal Nomar and Scott Williamson in exchange for Magglio, I guess offering Garcia and maybe a prospect or someone like Randy Winn isn't as appealing for Chicago.

The complaint stems from the perception that the White Sox have been desperate for pitching help especially after losing Colon, so that seemed like a great destination for Garcia if the M's didn't want to keep him. Obviously Magglio is a real good hitter, and the M's would've had to include more in the deal to pry Ordonez away from Chicago, but it looks doubtful now that Boston has entered the picture. I think they're overpaying by including Williamson in the deal, but I guess they can afford it.

ISiddiqui

12-17-2003, 05:00 PM

If he knows what is good for him, A-Rod should tell the MLBPA to shove it.

SackAttack

12-17-2003, 05:16 PM

Frankly, I'd rather see LA miss out on Nomar than see Dan Evans pull a fucking lamebrain stunt like trading Odalis Perez, Guillermo Mota, AND Greg Miller for Nomar. I'm sorry, but in this market, there's no way you should be trading that much pitching for a bat making $15 mil/season. ESPECIALLY when that player has been injured, and in recent offensive decline.

I dig Nomar as much as the next guy, but at that price, I'll pass, thanks.

oykib

12-17-2003, 06:04 PM

The union is not saying that the deal can't go through. The Collective Bargaining Agreement is saying that the deal can't go through. It's perfectly reasonable for Orza to say that A-Rod can't take less money to go to Boston-- especially with the market trending as it is.

A-Rod is the standard-bearer for the whole league, as it's highest-paid player. If he takes a pay cut, then that has an effect right down the line. He shouldn't have signed the stupid contract in the first place if he really cared about winning. He could be playing for a contender now if he had taken $5 million less per season when he signed the contract.

It's the same thing as Sammy Sosa not allowing himself to be tested by Rick Reilly. Whether he was clean or not had nothing to do with it. He couldn't leave his union out to dry.

Buccaneer

12-17-2003, 06:19 PM

F'n, f'n unions. :mad:

Sorry to lead off page 2 like this.

Chief Rum

12-17-2003, 06:38 PM

Originally posted by oykib
A-Rod is the standard-bearer for the whole league, as it's highest-paid player. If he takes a pay cut, then that has an effect right down the line. He shouldn't have signed the stupid contract in the first place if he really cared about winning. He could be playing for a contender now if he had taken $5 million less per season when he signed the contract.

I understand what you're saying, oykib, but honestly, how can you call the guy stupid for signing a $25 M per year contract for a whole decade?

A-Rod didn't negotiate the deal. Hicks and his agent, Boras, did. A-Rod just saw the money being thrown at him, and like anyone would half a brain would, he signed in an instant.

It's not unreasonable to think that the Rangers might try and build a team around him. I don't think he expected to be signing with a perennial loser when he signed that contract.

The whole concept that you think A-Rod should have foreseen that he would need to take less money to move to a contender is mind boggling. No one would think of that--especially considering the CBA wasn't signed until a year and a half after A-Rod signed his deal. And even if it was in existence, I am sorry but no one is going to think that way.

CR

oykib

12-17-2003, 06:45 PM

Everyone said so at the time. This isn't hindsight. Go back and look at the articles and columns that were written then. They pretty much all said that A-Rod's contract ws going to preclude the ability of Texas to build a contender.

I believe the old CBA had the same provision about pay cuts.

Chief Rum

12-17-2003, 06:56 PM

What articles said and what the Rangers and A-Rod thought are two different matters. I am sorry, oykib, but it's just insulting to anyone's intelligence to accept the premise that A-Rod should have known he needed to sign a $5 M less contract to later be dealt to a contender.

If I recall correctly, most people felt the signing of Chan Ho Park is what screwed that franchise up, not the A-Rod deal. That and the fact that Hicks didn't make as much money as he expected. If he had, then maybe the purses would be more open and the Rangers would be contending.

And rather than have me look around for these articles, why don't you just post the links? Like they matter, though, because as I said that is just talking ahead opinions, and the only thing that matters is there is the way A-Rod and the Rangers were thinking.

When you're signing a contract for more money and length than any contract in the history of baseball, you're not thinking about going to a contender later on in the contract. I know with absolute certainty that neither you nor I would think about that possibility three years ago with that contract staring us int he face. And don't tell me you would, because that's just complete BS.

I'm not going to fault A-Rod for making the most obvious decision of all time.

CR

dawgfan

12-17-2003, 06:59 PM

Originally posted by Chief Rum
A-Rod didn't negotiate the deal. Hicks and his agent, Boras, did. A-Rod just saw the money being thrown at him, and like anyone would half a brain would, he signed in an instant.

I don't agree. There comes a point of diminishing returns, and when you're talking about salaries in the $20+M range, I think you've started to reach that point.

Plenty of other athletes have taken contract offers for less money then was ultimately possible, and for various reasons - competitiveness, location, familiarity with a city/teammates/manager/etc. Ken Griffey, for all the whining he's done about respect, has always opted to take lesser money in order to stay with his preferred teams. Karl Malone and Gary Payton could've taken a lot more money with other teams, but opted to sign with the Lakers to try and win a title.

Had A-Rod signed with the Braves or Mariners for $19M per year, he still would've been making a huge amount of money, and he would've been on playoff teams. Whether or not either team could've sustained being playoff teams by tying up that much of their payroll in 1 player is questionable, but it's likely he'd have had 1-3 playoff appearences with either of those teams instead of the 3 losing seasons he's had with the Rangers. Considering at the time of his free agency he claimed how important winning was to him, it sure rang hollow when he signed with the Rangers - a team of good (but old) hitters and no pitching staff. Was it worth the extra $6M per year? Would it have been that much of a strain on his ego to try and subsist on $19M per year?

oykib

12-17-2003, 07:41 PM

Cheif,

I totally disagree with you. A-Rod could've gone to a winner for twenty million or he could take the money and run. He took the biggest payday to sign with Texas. If he thought they were building a winner, then that was his misjudgement. Every other reasonable person seemed to think he was taking the most money to play for an also-ran.

He did sign a contract that gives him an out after seven years. Maybe he thought that if things didn't work out, then he'd still be in his early thirties when he became a free agent again. I have no idea. But as I said in the beginning, it's not hindsight. Everyone thought this way when he signed the deal. It's his own fault that he's in this position.

sterlingice

12-17-2003, 07:49 PM

Originally posted by Buccaneer
F'n, f'n unions. :mad:

Sorry to lead off page 2 like this.

No, no. In the case of the baseball player's union, in particular, this is quite accurate.

SI

The_herd

12-17-2003, 09:56 PM

Selig now says he may ok the deal and force it to go to arbitration.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1688755

sterlingice

12-17-2003, 10:20 PM

Originally posted by The_herd
Selig now says he may ok the deal and force it to go to arbitration.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1688755

Sounds good. I don't think the union could win that at all.

SI

astralhaze

12-17-2003, 10:53 PM

Originally posted by sterlingice
Sounds good. I don't think the union could win that at all.

SI

Actually, since the CBA states that players cannot renegotiate a contract without receiving some benefit, I think it is going to be a very hard sell for MLB.

sterlingice

12-17-2003, 10:56 PM

Originally posted by astralhaze
Actually, since the CBA states that players cannot renegotiate a contract without receiving some benefit, I think it is going to be a very hard sell for MLB.

Couldn't they just argue that getting out of Texas to a more winning situation was an improvement on his contract?

SI