Ping: Rush Limbaugh

[HornedFrog Purple]

McNabb has too much class to say anything. I guess I don't.

That 4th and 26 was for you... you race-baiting jackass. Hope you enjoyed it.

[Subby]

And if the Packers could play a proper Cover 2 then Rush would have been right? ;)

[WSUCougar]

Hope you enjoyed it.
He was probably too doped up to notice. :p

[HornedFrog Purple]

heh go away Subby. :D

Ya gotta take them when they come.

[Ksyrup]

And what did McNabb do on that play that Josh McCown hasn't already done?

[rkmsuf]

And what did McNabb do on that play that Josh McCown hasn't already done?

He had a can of Chunky Soup in his hand warmer which made the play far more difficult...

[cthomer5000]

He had a can of Chunky Soup in his hand warmer which made the play far more difficult...

you have me envisioning our first corporate-sponsored endzone celebration. Chunky pays Donovan to score a TD, pull one of those microwaveable bowls out of his handwarmer, and dig in right there in the endzone.

[Cringer]

McNabb is a damn good QB, one of the best in the NFL right now. I do not think he is "over-rated" at all! After watching him twice take control of a game against my Packers this year and pretty much win it by what he does....i have much more respect for him now then when i did at the time this whole Rush thing started.

And i think Fox took some pretty good shots at Rush yesterday, too. Frank whats-his-name on the pregame show was hilarious, and Chris Collins took a shot at him during the game.

[Antmeister]

What's really sad is that if Donovan McNabb doesn't make it to the Super Bowl, people will still be out there who will believe that Rush was right. Now I will be the first to say that McNabb is not having his best year ever, but to say he is over-rated as a quarterback is ridiculous. As a long time Chargers fan who has suffered from many poor years, I wish we had a quarterback of his calibur in our lineup....and maybe a few good offensive lineman.....and a few good linebackers (why did you let Seau go)......and maybe an improved D-line.

[Cringer]

What's really sad is that if Donovan McNabb doesn't make it to the Super Bowl, people will still be out there who will believe that Rush was right. Now I will be the first to say that McNabb is not having his best year ever, but to say he is over-rated as a quarterback is ridiculous. As a long time Chargers fan who has suffered from many poor years, I wish we had a quarterback of his calibur in our lineup....and maybe a few good offensive lineman.....and a few good linebackers (why did you let Seau go)......and maybe an improved D-line.


Well......you got LT. :D

[Antmeister]

I just hope LT doesn't end up like Barry Sanders. The Chargers better put some better talent around him. If they had better and defensive lines, the team would be more than halfway decent. And LT is doing magic without an O-line at all.

[Fonzie]

I just hope LT doesn't end up like Barry Sanders.

That doesn't sound like such a bad fate to me. ;)

[HornedFrog Purple]

I am worried about LT since Marty figured out he was a good pass receiver. He will now find every conceivable way to get him the ball. He killed Barry Word that way. LT needs some help badly.

[ISiddiqui]

I do not think he is "over-rated" at all!

Maybe it'll make me unpopular, but I disagree. If you look at his passer rating numbers and career stats they resemble Brad Johnson's. Not a bad QB by any measure, but one who's job may be taken by Mark Brunell if the rumors are correct. He isn't a Top 5 QB, IMO, and if people believe that then they are overrating him. Just like those who say Mike Vick is in the Top 5 QBs as well. Personally, I think Manning, McNair, Farve (yes, Farve), Brady, and Green are better. Don't mean he ain't good, but I will say he is overrated.

The question is if Sherman had any balls and went for it on 4th and 1 and the Pack won, would we have all these people saying SEE, McNabb willed the Eagles to win!

And if the Packers could play a proper Cover 2 then Rush would have been right?

Exactly.

[Subby]

Maybe it'll make me unpopular, but I disagree. If you look at his passer rating numbers and career stats they resemble Brad Johnson's. Not a bad QB by any measure, but one who's job may be taken by Mark Brunell if the rumors are correct. He isn't a Top 5 QB, IMO, and if people believe that then they are overrating him. Just like those who say Mike Vick is in the Top 5 QBs as well. Personally, I think Manning, McNair, Farve (yes, Farve), Brady, and Green are better. Don't mean he ain't good, but I will say he is overrated.
Well, your mistake is evaluating a football player solely on stats. In football, stats do not tell nearly the story that they do in, say, baseball. You can't use a statistical analysis to tell me who the best offensive linemen are in football - football is a team sport, whereas baseball is primarily one versus one - a situation where there is a direct statistical correlation...

That was Rush' mistake. Well, the oxy-contin was his mistake too, but that is for a different sandwich...

[Bonegavel]

First, the term "overrated" is over used. Second, to use this term, there must be a general concensus as to what his actual rating is for him to not meet up to that rating with which is labeled.

McNabb's stats don't tell the story of a highly rated QB, but his salary does. For this excercise, I think it is safe to say that a player commanding Donovan's salary (the highest in its time) is the Eagles way of saying, "We think he is the best QB in the league." Otherwise, don't extend his contract and wait for a "better" QB to hit FA and then spend that embarrassing amount of money on that guy.

The above analogy to Brad Johnson isn't a good one for only one reason... Sure Brad may have similar stats to McNabb, but what is the big difference between the two? Brad has a Super Bowl ring and Donny doesn't. Would anyone accuse Johnson of being a great QB? Doubt it, but he took his team to the super bowl? Well, it was a team effort. Fine, I accept that.

So, you can't use the "Well they are winning" argument to bolster up McNabb's mediocre QBing. It is a team effort.

I am an Eagles fan; have been since the late 70s. Up until this year, I thought Donovan was the second coming of christ. You know what, this still may be the case and I'm hoping that his player card shows lots and lots of green potential bars in all his numbers, because he has a long way to go to earn that money he is being paid.

I don't think that Donovan is performing commensurate with his pay, and I think that is a good indicator as to what is thought of him as a player (at least from the Eagles POV).

To get to the point of your "dig" I still don't think that people understand Rush's comments. People are taking the comments he made to mean "Black QBs suck." You must really be desperate if you think that is true. Rush felt that Donovan is not as good a QB as most of the Media thinks and that the Defense carried the team. There is a large degree of truth to that statement and 1 good game here and there from Donovan (which he does have) doesn't make that statement false.

[rkmsuf]

First, the term "overrated" is over used. Second, to use this term, there must be a general concensus as to what his actual rating is for him to not meet up to that rating with which is labeled.

McNabb's stats don't tell the story of a highly rated QB, but his salary does. For this excercise, I think it is safe to say that a player commanding Donovan's salary (the highest in its time) is the Eagles way of saying, "We think he is the best QB in the league." Otherwise, don't extend his contract and wait for a "better" QB to hit FA and then spend that embarrassing amount of money on that guy.

The above analogy to Brad Johnson isn't a good one for only one reason... Sure Brad may have similar stats to McNabb, but what is the big difference between the two? Brad has a Super Bowl ring and Donny doesn't. Would anyone accuse Johnson of being a great QB? Doubt it, but he took his team to the super bowl? Well, it was a team effort. Fine, I accept that.

So, you can't use the "Well they are winning" argument to bolster up McNabb's mediocre QBing. It is a team effort.

I am an Eagles fan; have been since the late 70s. Up until this year, I thought Donovan was the second coming of christ. You know what, this still may be the case and I'm hoping that his player card shows lots and lots of green potential bars in all his numbers, because he has a long way to go to earn that money he is being paid.

I don't think that Donovan is performing commensurate with his pay, and I think that is a good indicator as to what is thought of him as a player (at least from the Eagles POV).

To get to the point of your "dig" I still don't think that people understand Rush's comments. People are taking the comments he made to mean "Black QBs suck." You must really be desperate if you think that is true. Rush felt that Donovan is not as good a QB as most of the Media thinks and that the Defense carried the team. There is a large degree of truth to that statement and 1 good game here and there from Donovan (which he does have) doesn't make that statement false.

In spite of lack of SuperBowl appearances, 3 consecutive NFC Titles games with that team speaks otherwise as to McNabb's qualities...

I'm not particularly a McNabb guy but he's not working with much on offense...

[Ksyrup]

Does anyone not fully comprehend that Rush was taking a shot at the media, and not at McNabb? You can fill in the blank with the name of the athlete, his comment was directed toward how the media covers a particular kind of athlete.

Not saying I agree with Rush...but McNabb didn't "prove" anybody right or wrong, since he wasn't the issue.

[cthomer5000]

Does anyone not fully comprehend that Rush was taking a shot at the media, and not at McNabb? You can fill in the blank with the name of the athlete, his comment was directed toward how the media covers a particular kind of athlete.

Not saying I agree with Rush...but McNabb didn't "prove" anybody right or wrong, since he wasn't the issue.

I think it was a two-tiered statement.

1. McNabb is not as good as we all think
2. The media has a vested interest in making this black QB appear to be better than he is.

[rkmsuf]

I think it was a two-tiered statement.

1. McNabb is not as good as we all think
2. The media has a vested interest in making this black QB appear to be better than he is.

Ladies and Gentlemen, shouldn't an expierienced broadcaster know how to phrase such assertions...

[Ksyrup]

But my point is, he could have replace McNabb with, say, McNair and gone about making the same point. In fact, Boo-Yah's gushing commentary about how McNair showed why he earned the MVP award in last week's game - in which he threw 3 INTs - could be pointed to as an example of what Rush was talking about.

[Bonegavel]

Does anyone not fully comprehend that Rush was taking a shot at the media, and not at McNabb? You can fill in the blank with the name of the athlete, his comment was directed toward how the media covers a particular kind of athlete.

Not saying I agree with Rush...but McNabb didn't "prove" anybody right or wrong, since he wasn't the issue.
Well, saying the highest paid QB's team was being carried along by the defense isn't exactly a glowing endoresement for Nabby.

I like Rush, but I now believe he made that comment knowing 2 things:

a) the drug stuff was about to explode
b) his comments would get him thrown off

being thrown off for the comment is something he can wear as a badge. Being thrown off the show for drug rehab isn't.

[Ksyrup]

That's certainly possible. Or maybe he was even hoping that the McNabb controversy would overshadow the other, figuring that his attorneys might be able stop it before it got going.

[revrew]

I won't comment on Rush's suggestion that the media has an interest in making black QBs look good. That seems ill-advised speculation without sufficient evidence to me.

But that the bozos in the booth are going above and beyond to gush about how good McNabb is, I find indesputable. They are looking, BEGGING, for opportunities to tell us how good McNabb is. Makes me sick. He doesn't fumble when KGB slaps his triceps? "Oooh, look how strong McNabb is." And I quote, "99 out of 100 QBs in this league would have fumbled that ball." Maybe if KGB would have hit the ball, or his hand, or his wrist...Hey, Collinsworth, clean that up before you leave, okay?

To be fair, however, the bozos in the booth do the same thing to every star player. You can't watch a Chargers game without hearing how spectacular LT is, Falcons without Vickdrool, or Ravens without Ray Lewis smoochin'. Even when the stars are playing poorly or when another lesser name is outshining them all (like Packers CB McKenzie was doing for most of that game), we have to hear how strong, elusive, strong-armed, handsome, intelligent, and largely endowed the star players are. Perhaps I'm too much of a purist. I'd like to hear about the game, not who the producers told the announcers they had to talk up.

And personally, I find the unapologetic slander, character assasination, and even violent dissin' of Rush by the sports media to either A) suggest he may have been right ("methinks thou dost protest too much"), or, more likely, B) demonstrate that the media involved hold to lesser scruples than even Rush does. Rush made an inflammatory comment; what's being done to him is malicious.

And no, I'm no dittohead. But that much Rush-hate is P.C. on its way to its ugliest.

[Cringer]

Announcers are almost ALWAYS going overboard about players though, NOT just McNabb. ESPN Sunday night guys always seem to pick a player each game to promote. When i guy is good, when he's the leader of a team, the announcers are always gonna pour it on too thick when he does something good....has pretty much always been that way.

[GrantDawg]

I won't comment on Rush's suggestion that the media has an interest in making black QBs look good. That seems ill-advised speculation without sufficient evidence to me.

But that the bozos in the booth are going above and beyond to gush about how good McNabb is, I find indesputable. They are looking, BEGGING, for opportunities to tell us how good McNabb is. Makes me sick. He doesn't fumble when KGB slaps his triceps? "Oooh, look how strong McNabb is." And I quote, "99 out of 100 QBs in this league would have fumbled that ball." Maybe if KGB would have hit the ball, or his hand, or his wrist...Hey, Collinsworth, clean that up before you leave, okay?

To be fair, however, the bozos in the booth do the same thing to every star player. You can't watch a Chargers game without hearing how spectacular LT is, Falcons without Vickdrool, or Ravens without Ray Lewis smoochin'. Even when the stars are playing poorly or when another lesser name is outshining them all (like Packers CB McKenzie was doing for most of that game), we have to hear how strong, elusive, strong-armed, handsome, intelligent, and largely endowed the star players are. Perhaps I'm too much of a purist. I'd like to hear about the game, not who the producers told the announcers they had to talk up.

And personally, I find the unapologetic slander, character assasination, and even violent dissin' of Rush by the sports media to either A) suggest he may have been right ("methinks thou dost protest too much"), or, more likely, B) demonstrate that the media involved hold to lesser scruples than even Rush does. Rush made an inflammatory comment; what's being done to him is malicious.

And no, I'm no dittohead. But that much Rush-hate is P.C. on its way to its ugliest.
I heart revrew

[Glengoyne]

Hey you know what In my opinion Rush was right. Well at least with regard to his being overrated, not necessarily in regard to what motivated that hype. I say that because I had been saying the same thing to anyone who would listen for two years. Last year I heard numerous announcers say that McNabb was the best QB, possibly the best player in the game. He had landed that HUGE contract, and people were talking like he was going to redefine the position. At the beginning of this year I read an article comparing him to Joe Montana.

He was clearly overrated in my opinion. He had plenty of potential, but really hadn't done it on the field YET. Now at the end of this season, he has shown he can regularly be a monster of a presense on the field. At the beginning of this year, I would have argued long and hard that he wasn't one of the top tier QBs. Now I think he has broken into that class. He carried his team yesterday. Disregard that the Packer's defensive coordinator apparently decided he would "Make McNabb beat us", when he drew up his game plan. I mean the fact that McNabb was allowed to stand back and throw that strike on fourth and twentysix pales in comparison to the fact that he was allowed to run free between the tackles all day long.

[sterlingice]

I heart revrew

I hate Rush Limbaugh, but I kindof agree here.

Then again, I was indifferent to what he said originally. I was too busy gloating at him getting his comeuppance, watching the media crucify him for the same thing he had done to so many others. And I guess I feel the same way now: if you spend your life destroying people with misquotes and witch hunts, well the man reaped what he had sown and I'm not about to shed a tear for him.

SI

[Fritz]

people are paying more attention to this thread that they would otherwise because the guy who started it is purple.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

The size of the contract plays a big role in a players' worth AT THE TIME he signs. The Eagles brass were the most familiar with his talents and paid him big dough. This speaks volumes. But it speaks to both his current talent and EXPECTED talent in the future as he continues to grow and get better, as well as his ability to make his team a winner. That is what Rush missed. He like many others equate talent with statistics. What is good for baseball is not necessarily good for football (or hockey as another example). Football players bring more to the game than statistics. There is a famous quote from somebody that basically says great players make their teammates better. McNabb does this. It involves the play on the field, the confidence he instills in others, how he leads, the respect from other teammates. If it was just pure talent, Jeff George would be in the hall of fame. Instead, he is out of work. Given the opportunity to pay McNabb (or Brady or even Pennington) huge dough to QB my team or a guy who puts up big stats and simply collects a pay check, I will take McNabb every time (unless I am running a fantasy football team). As part of that I also realize McNabb will continue to get better each year because of who he is.

As for Rush, anybody familiar with him knows he panders to his right wing conservative followers, and that is what he did on ESPN - he just couldn't help himself. He may have been correct in that the media was pumping McNabb but where he was dead wrong was thinking it was unwarranted, claiming McNabb was overrated (based on Rush's limited football knowledge and a few recent games played by McNabb). To bring race into it was "classic" Rush Limbaugh and he suffered he consequences. What Rush learned is while many of the people who tune into his radio show agree with him, those who watch ESPN (a show with a much bigger and broader audience) do not. It was not PC backlash, it was many people simply saying Rush "you don't know what you're talking about and to try and bring race into is simply off-base and ignorant." Simply put, Rush couldn't get people to buy what he was selling.

[BishopMVP]

Given the opportunity to pay McNabb (or Brady or even Pennington) huge dough to QB my team or a guy who puts up big stats and simply collects a pay check, I will take McNabb every time (unless I am running a fantasy football team).
But would you take McNabb over either Brady or Pennington? McNabb is a good QB. He is not a great QB. He may become one someday, but he isn't now. Of course he's overhyped, almost every skill position player in the NFL who has been good for a couple years is. Is he overrated? I think so. If I was building a team and had to choose someone to be my QB of the current year and the future, McNabb would be at best 7th (behind McNair, Manning, Brady, Hasselbeck, Culpepper, Pennington, not necessarily in that order), but the media portrays him as being up around 1 or 2. Rush Limbaugh may be an idiot and a pompous ass, but I think he was right on this one (at least the part regarding the game of football, and not his social commentary).

[andy m]

McNabb has not had a single decent receiver to pass to for the past 3 years yet he has *lead* his team to the championship game each time. what would have happened if he had Marvin Harrison to throw to? or Randy Moss? or at least a guy capable of having a 1000 yard season. what McNabb has done without having top notch wide receivers is fantastic. he is a leader, he gets the job done. what else could you ask for?

[HornedFrog Purple]

Does anyone not fully comprehend that Rush was taking a shot at the media, and not at McNabb? You can fill in the blank with the name of the athlete, his comment was directed toward how the media covers a particular kind of athlete.

Not saying I agree with Rush...but McNabb didn't "prove" anybody right or wrong, since he wasn't the issue.

I believe you are close, he was attacking the media, but the simple fact of the matter is he race-baited to get his point across. If he had simply said "McNabb is the highest paid QB in the NFL but I think he is overrated. The defense carried the team. The media because he is so highly paid makes him out to be better than he actually is." is that not the same thing?

As far as the rest of it, Rush knew what he was doing. The guy is paid to talk for a living. He took an opportunity when the Eagles started 0-2 and ran with it.

I don't need to mention the fact that Rush does this ad nauseum on his show. He attacks anyone who doesn't agree with him.

As far as the media going gung-ho with it.. well if you have been sniping from a foxhole for years and step out into the open field, you are going to get fired back on full guns blazing. Too bad.

I find it peculiar that everyone (myself included) jumps on Al Sharpton and in some cases Jesse Jackson for doing the same thing, but Rush gets an indifferent response. When it comes right down to it, Rush is no better than either of them.

[Subby]

Did Rush take a poll? Did he do some scientific research? Can he define "the media" and give us a list of names in said group? After that, will he please submit a list of each member of that group that desires to see a black quarterback succeed to the point that they are artificially inflating Donovan McNabb's worth through their medium?

This is all anecdotal/subjective/intellectually lazy speculation that is based on at best limited experience. Just because Stu Scott praises a questionable Steve McNair performance or some obscure FOX announcing team canonizes Michael Vick does not in ANY way lend credence to Rush's assertion.

When you deconstruct what Rush said, you are left with one sure thing...the color of Donovan McNabb's skin and the position he plays. Donovan McNabb - the black Quarterback.

I think history has shown that it is safe to leave out the color of a professional football player's skin when objectively discussing his merits.

[Ksyrup]

I believe you are close, he was attacking the media, but the simple fact of the matter is he race-baited to get his point across. If he had simply said "McNabb is the highest paid QB in the NFL but I think he is overrated. The defense carried the team. The media because he is so highly paid makes him out to be better than he actually is." is that not the same thing?

No, it's not, because that wasn't his point. Rush (whether he actually believes it or not, and regardless of whether it's true) suggested that race is a factor in the amount of press McNabb gets. So, right or wrong, race did have to be included in order to make his point. He couldn't have made the same point by using, say, Tom Brady as an example, because his point wasn't simply that X QB is overrated because his defense is so good and he makes too much money for the stats/wins he produces.

You can call it "race-baiting," but it's not. He might be flat-out wrong, but race was the underlying factor of the point he was making. Now, whether he actually believes what he said is another matter, and ties into my next point below.



I find it peculiar that everyone (myself included) jumps on Al Sharpton and in some cases Jesse Jackson for doing the same thing, but Rush gets an indifferent response. When it comes right down to it, Rush is no better than either of them.


The difference, in my mind, is that Rush Limbaugh is, in large part, an entertainer. I think he takes kernels of truth and exaggerates them to entertain people. I believe in a lot of the principles he espouses, but I don't believe that all liberals are bad and all conservatives are good. He takes points to extremes on purpose, because it is entertaining.

On the other hand, Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton have never shown themselves to be anything but politician-types. They have both run for office, something I don't think Rush has ever done (yet), certainly not on a state or national level. Therefore, what they say is automatically taken as serious. By virtue of what he does for a living, Rush is to be taken with a grain of salt.

[HornedFrog Purple]

You can call it "race-baiting," but it's not. He might be flat-out wrong, but race was the underlying factor of the point he was making. Now, whether he actually believes what he said is another matter, and ties into my next point below.

Using race to push an agenda. You above said yourself he could have substituted McNair, Quincy or whomever to say the same thing. Rush attacked the media and used race to do it. He expected the media to respond the way it did attacking his bait and not what he was actually saying.

Sharpton and Jackson do the same thing all the time. All three of them are in reality political commentators because their rationale is so off-track from the main stream of thinking that they are never taken seriously. Hence the comparison.

[Ksyrup]

Using race to push an agenda. You above said yourself he could have substituted McNair, Quincy or whomever to say the same thing. Rush attacked the media and used race to do it. He expected the media to respond the way it did attacking his bait and not what he was actually saying.

I guess I don't understand. When is race a legitimate point, and when is it not? He wasn't just attacking the media, he was attacking them on this pont. And the media, in large part, responded to that point, and secondarily, to the caricature of Rush that he willingly puts out there. I don't know what you saw/read, but the media did attack back against what he said.

The problem here is that with Rush, there's a question of whether he believes what he said. But let's just assume that he did. How is that race-baiting? If someone felt that they had a legitimate point to make about the media's treatment of what they perceive as marginally-talented black athletes, why can't that person make that point without it being considered race-baiting?

And again, I think the comparison is off-base. Limbaugh's counterpart is Al Franken. An integral part of comedy is exaggeration of legitimate points. That's what Limbaugh does.

[HornedFrog Purple]

Rush considers the media (everyone but him) as the liberal media aka the enemy. He goes after them constantly. That pretty much is his whole schtick. He makes up stuff, exaggerates and in some cases tiptoes the line of slander to do it. It would be one thing if this was his first foray into it, but it's not and that is how he makes money.

This was simply an opportunity for him to do it yet again. He isn't attacking the media just on this point. He attacked the media using that point because it was available at an opportune time. He knew exactly what he was doing. He wanted the media to belittle him on bringing up race into the whole thing so he could say "This wasn't about race! I was talking about the media! You must feel guilty!" And of course the next day, that is exactly what he did.

That is what I mean by race-baiting. This particular incident means nothing in and of itself, but added together with the many other things he has said (just as an example his "take" on JC Watts) it equates to the rigamaroll of Sharpton or Jackson.

In comparison, Sharpton is notorious for doing the same thing. He will go after groups about hirings or whatever saying "Why didn't you interview a minority? Boycott this company!" Is it because he really feels that way? Maybe at one time a long time ago but definitely not anymore. He does it for $$.

If you really think Sharpton and Jackson represent Black America, I can promise you that you are mistaken. I know a con artist when I see them regardless of color. They are pretty easy to spot.

[Butter]

Rush doesn't have the credibility to attack anybody about race issues. Valid point or not, whenever he talks about race, he might as well be talking like the adults in a Peanuts cartoon.

[Antmeister]

...I guess I don't understand. When is race a legitimate point, and when is it not...

I don't think this was a legetimate point for this topic at all. Are you trying to tell me that every other star quarterback doesn't get the same kind of attention as Donovan McNabb. Look at how many times they talk about Brett Favre's greatness. I even remember a number of television specials were made because Peyton Manning stayed back another year and ESPN even had an hour long special on the fact that he stayed back.. If I remember correctly, Peyton Manning didn't do too well his first year in the league (of course that is to be expected), but he was still talked about even though other quarterbacks were doing a helluva lot better at the time. Since then, Peyton has looked great, but why the attention before he even stepped on the field. Just the nature of the position. Cmon even Tim Couch was given a lot of publicity when he first entered the league. It's not a case of the media trying to hope that a race does well, it is a case that quarterback has always been the position on the team that gets the most attention and most hype. Now if Donovan had the talent of the Colts or the Rams or the offensive line of the Patriots, there would be a different tune.

I too agree that Donovan is not a top 5 quarterback at this time. However how far he was able to take a team with lesser talent than other great quarterbacks should not be overlooked. But this position has always been skewed by the media for quite some time. I mean let's even look at a player that I admire greatly, Doug Flutie. Anytime he gets anytime of playing time of the field, the media loves to jump on this story and repeatedly talk about his glory days in Boston College as if it applies now.

That's why Rush sounds as if he had an agenda just to boost ratings for his radio show. The media has always done this with the quarterback position, it's not the fact that the media is trying to prop up a black quarterback.

[Bonegavel]

Hold on... all those talking about McNabb not having a great supporting cast haven't seen him throw 80% of his passes:

a) at the turf about 5 feet in front of the receiver
b) at the receiver's big toe
c) behind them, forcing them to stop and not gain an extra yard
d) over their head

He was given ALL day to throw against GB and yet these remain true.

Don't make the mistake of saying Donovan led this team where they are, just the same you wouldn't credit Brad Johnson with leading the Buccs to the SB. It is the combo all pieces of the puzzle.

Look, I still think that Donovan is going to develop into a HOFer... but don't go giving him excuses at this point.

That isn't to say he doesn't have moments of brilliance, and this is why I have hope that he still has a lot of potential. I just think he is the type of QB that would have done better a few years behind a vet, learning the ropes. He was thrown into the starting lineup very quickly, and (now I'm giving excuses) in my opinion, that creates a feral QB with lots of bad habits and quirks. All that means is that it will take him a few more years to come around. Donovan can avoid sacks like nobody I've ever seen and his feet get him out of a lot of trouble. But, his passing needs tons of work.

[Samdari]

Now at the end of this season, he has shown he can regularly be a monster of a presense on the field. At the beginning of this year, I would have argued long and hard that he wasn't one of the top tier QBs. Now I think he has broken into that class. He carried his team yesterday.

He's been carrying the team for the last 4 years, doing exactly the things he did on Sunday.

[Ksyrup]

I don't think this was a legetimate point for this topic at all. Are you trying to tell me that every other star quarterback doesn't get the same kind of attention as Donovan McNabb.


No, I'm not. My opinion is the same as yours. That doesn't mean someone else isn't entitled to a different opinion.

[HornedFrog Purple]

Well I remember when the Eagles started off badly and McNabb said he needed to step it up his play and the team responded. He did this amongst all the additional stuff he had to deal with.

That is pretty impressive and this is coming from an NFC East fan of another team.

[Bonegavel]

Rush aside, this really brings up the entire subjective issue of how much individual players/coaches make a difference for a team. Dan Marino, arguably the greatest QB ever, never was able to take his team and win a ring. Does that make him overrated, since the ultimate goal is a SuperBowl victory? Warner proved that you don't need the best defense if you can just outscore your opponent.

[rkmsuf]

Rush aside, this really brings up the entire subjective issue of how much individual players/coaches make a difference for a team. Dan Marino, arguably the greatest QB ever, never was able to take his team and win a ring. Does that make him overrated, since the ultimate goal is a SuperBowl victory? Warner proved that you don't need the best defense if you can just outscore your opponent.

I'd say it does make Marino overrated. No question he was a great player but part of the QB's job is to lead. From the outside looking in he looked like a total ass on the field and not exactly inspiring...

[Antmeister]

No, I'm not. My opinion is the same as yours. That doesn't mean someone else isn't entitled to a different opinion.

You asked when it was appropriate to talk about race in an issue. You then proceeded to show points why you think that Rush was correct. I was only stating that Rush was wrong to bring it up on this subject considering the other quarterbacks who get just as much pub or more. I was not slamming your post. I was offering a differing opinion.

[HornedFrog Purple]

Coaching I believe is more important than individual players. Look at my Cowboys. All they really added was Richie Anderson, Ryan Young, Terrance Newman and Terry Glenn and managed to win 10 games.

My point with McNabb is there are a lot of players that say what he said about stepping it up. In fact they say that every week. There are few who actually do it for a long period of time in the midst of a season.

[Ksyrup]

You asked when it was appropriate to talk about race in an issue. You then proceeded to show points why you think that Rush was correct. I was only stating that Rush was wrong to bring it up on this subject considering the other quarterbacks who get just as much pub or more. I was not slamming your post. I was offering a differing opinion.


I did not suggest that he was right. I was suggesting that, in his mind, he might have had a legitimate reason to raise the question, aside from simply wanting to raise race as an issue. Although I don't think I've got enough evidence one way or the other to make a definitive statement on the matter, I tend to agree with you - although I don't necessarily believe he was "wrong" for bringing it up.

[Glengoyne]

McNabb has not had a single decent receiver to pass to for the past 3 years yet he has *lead* his team to the championship game each time.
...
What would have happened if he had Marvin Harrison to throw to?
My guess is that Marvin would have a hell of a lot fewer receptions.

[Glengoyne]

Dan Marino, arguably the greatest QB everI don't think you'd win that argument.

Does that make him overrated...? Possibly in your mind.

[Glengoyne]

Dola
He's been carrying the team for the last 4 years, doing exactly the things he did on Sunday.
I would submit that he certainly wasn't hurting the team over that period. I do think that was the defense you saw carrying the team though.

[Samdari]

Dola

I would submit that he certainly wasn't hurting the team over that period. I do think that was the defense you saw carrying the team though.

The plays you saw Sunday, which you said was McNabb carrying the team, he has been making for the past four years.

[Bonegavel]

I don't think you'd win that argument.

Possibly in your mind.
do explain, please

[Buddy Grant]

Rush Limbaugh is an intelligent man. The same cannot be said of followers who take him too seriously:).

[Glengoyne]

do explain, please
He wasn't even close to being the premiere QB of his era, let alone all time.

[Glengoyne]

The plays you saw Sunday, which you said was McNabb carrying the team, he has been making for the past four years.No chance I have Direct Ticket. My wife likes the Eagles, I watch McNabb a lot. This season he was the man, a force to be reckoned with. He did it week in and week out, well if you exclude the first two. In years past you'd have to throw out half a dozen games where he was merely the beneficiary of a great defense and all the field position benefits thereof. In years past he had great games salted in amongst a bunch of competant, and some less than, appearances. He lacked the consistency he had this year.

In my mind he elevated his game this year. He is living up to the potential that I think people have been giving him credit for in years past. In other words, I see THIS season as his breakthrough year.

[Bonegavel]

He wasn't even close to being the premiere QB of his era, let alone all time.
Oh, wasn't aware of that sentiment. Mention his name in many circles and they fill a spit-cup with drool inside of the time it took him to drop back and release the ball.

So you're saying the adulation and hand-jobbing he receives is in the hopes of scoring free Isotoners?

[sabotai]

I don't think you'd win that argument.

Possibly in your mind.

How does one win or lose an argument over an opinion?

[Bonegavel]

How does one win or lose an argument over an opinion?
Well, that was kinda the purpose of the "arguably" tag i threw on the statement. :D

[sterlingice]

But would you take McNabb over either Brady or Pennington? McNabb is a good QB. He is not a great QB. He may become one someday, but he isn't now. Of course he's overhyped, almost every skill position player in the NFL who has been good for a couple years is. Is he overrated? I think so. If I was building a team and had to choose someone to be my QB of the current year and the future, McNabb would be at best 7th (behind McNair, Manning, Brady, Hasselbeck, Culpepper, Pennington, not necessarily in that order), but the media portrays him as being up around 1 or 2. Rush Limbaugh may be an idiot and a pompous ass, but I think he was right on this one (at least the part regarding the game of football, and not his social commentary).
*choke* Chad Pennington? You have got to be kidding me?!? And Hasselbeck- maybe, he finally might have turned a corner this year after being overrated and over his head for the longest time but I'm certainly not ready to put him up there with these other guys who have had success for a while. Heck, I'd take Aaron Brooks, Trent Green, and maybe even Jake Plummer before those two. Then again, McNabb is 27, which is middle aged for an NFL QB so I don't think it's fair to compare him by that bar- compare them on flat performance not "who would build a better team".

SI

[Glengoyne]

Oh, wasn't aware of that sentiment. Mention his name in many circles and they fill a spit-cup with drool inside of the time it took him to drop back and release the ball.

So you're saying the adulation and hand-jobbing he receives is in the hopes of scoring free Isotoners?
No I'm saying that outside of Miami and possibly Pittsburgh, he is no better than third or fourth on the list of QBs that were playing in his era. Heck, to me he is no better than third in his draft class. Yes he put up big numbers. Yes he was a great QB. No he isn't even close to the greatest of all time.

[sterlingice]

Coaching I believe is more important than individual players. Look at my Cowboys. All they really added was Richie Anderson, Ryan Young, Terrance Newman and Terry Glenn and managed to win 10 games.

My point with McNabb is there are a lot of players that say what he said about stepping it up. In fact they say that every week. There are few who actually do it for a long period of time in the midst of a season.
The two biggest additions the Cowboys made were Bill Parcells and the softest schedule in the league. Those two things pretty much guarantee 8 wins.

SI

[Glengoyne]

How does one win or lose an argument over an opinion?
Naysayer

[Samdari]

No chance I have Direct Ticket. My wife likes the Eagles, I watch McNabb a lot. This season he was the man, a force to be reckoned with. He did it week in and week out, well if you exclude the first two. In years past you'd have to throw out half a dozen games where he was merely the beneficiary of a great defense and all the field position benefits thereof. In years past he had great games salted in amongst a bunch of competant, and some less than, appearances. He lacked the consistency he had this year.

In my mind he elevated his game this year. He is living up to the potential that I think people have been giving him credit for in years past. In other words, I see THIS season as his breakthrough year.

I have Sunday Ticket as well. I have watched him a lot as well (SU alum) and have seen him make those plays, each of the last four years. He has been inconsistent with his accuracy all that time, but that did not go away this year either (his comp% has remained nearly identical at 58% all four years, and this was actually the lowest at 57.5). In fact, it did not even go away on Sunday, he threw 4 or 5 terribly inaccurate passes, as he seems to do every game. Most people would actually probably call this his worst season.

[Samdari]

*choke* Chad Pennington? You have got to be kidding me?!? And Hasselbeck- maybe, he finally might have turned a corner this year after being overrated and over his head for the longest time but I'm certainly not ready to put him up there with these other guys who have had success for a while. Heck, I'd take Aaron Brooks, Trent Green, and maybe even Jake Plummer before those two. Then again, McNabb is 27, which is middle aged for an NFL QB so I don't think it's fair to compare him by that bar- compare them on flat performance not "who would build a better team".

SI

You'd take Aaron Brooks ahead of Pennington?

Are you Rich Kotite?

[sterlingice]

You'd take Aaron Brooks ahead of Pennington?

Are you Rich Kotite?
Pennington had a good year last year but sandwiched it around crappy ones this season and two seasons ago. That doesn't exactly impress me. If he weren't in New York, he'd be just another average QB.

SI

[Bonegavel]

I have Sunday Ticket as well. I have watched him a lot as well (SU alum) and have seen him make those plays, each of the last four years. He has been inconsistent with his accuracy all that time, but that did not go away this year either (his comp% has remained nearly identical at 58% all four years, and this was actually the lowest at 57.5). In fact, it did not even go away on Sunday, he threw 4 or 5 terribly inaccurate passes, as he seems to do every game. Most people would actually probably call this his worst season.
I get the Eagles game every week and watch every week and I have to agree with you and is what I was getting at above. If Donovan were accurately represented by an FOF2K4 player card and you needed a QB, you would pass right over him.

Don't know if anyone remembers while Donovan was out last year, the Birds won all but 1 of the games (iirc) with backups. I was almost hoping he would sit out a few games and nurse the thumb... luckily they won anyway.

[Glengoyne]

Hey don't make me start defending Donovan McNabb. I have been saying that he was horribly over rated for as long as I can remember. This year though, he really seemed to be a different player. He led the team on a number of game winning drives in crunch time. Yes he wasn't always accurate, but he was often accurate when he had to be. He absolutely carried the team Sunday. He won that game against the Packers quite nearly single handedly.

I also agree with what someone said about a reflective FOF2K4 player card for Donovan McNabb wouldn't have near as much red as say one for say, Payton Manning. I am gonna have to say that McNabb has finally reached the point where I consider him one of the top QBs in the league. It is not just his quarterbacking skills. It is his ability to run, and better decision making regarding when to run. It is his ability, in a nutshell, "win". He is still technically nowhere near the QB that Manning is, but he does have some of the intangibles that make him a winner.

Prior to this season, he was exceedingly average with lots of potential.

[Samdari]

Pennington had a good year last year but sandwiched it around crappy ones this season and two seasons ago. That doesn't exactly impress me. If he weren't in New York, he'd be just another average QB.

SI

Wow you are remembering things that don't happen. Pennington had a crappy season two years ago?

He has only played two seasons, starting 12 games in 2002 and 9 in 2003. He did throw 20 passes in zero starts two years ago, but how that is a crappy season I have no idea. His 2003 is only crappy if you compare it to his 2002, which was brilliant. All in all, it was still above average. But, he doesn't have to be great to be be better than Brooks, who has less heart than anyone in the league, he only has to be in the top 28 QBs.

Pennington has evoked comparisons to Joe Montana. Brooks to Jeff George. That's all you need to know.

[Samdari]

I am gonna have to say that McNabb has finally reached the point where I consider him one of the top QBs in the league. It is not just his quarterbacking skills. It is his ability to run, and better decision making regarding when to run. It is his ability, in a nutshell, "win". He is still technically nowhere near the QB that Manning is, but he does have some of the intangibles that make him a winner.

So, this season, he finally figured out how to what?

Run? His worst season, by far, of running.

Win? the Eagles won 11 or 12 games each of the last 4 years.

He has done the same things the whole time he did this year for all of the past four. The only thing that has changed is your perception of him.

[sterlingice]

Wow you are remembering things that don't happen. Pennington had a crappy season two years ago?

He has only played two seasons, starting 12 games in 2002 and 9 in 2003. He did throw 20 passes in zero starts two years ago, but how that is a crappy season I have no idea. His 2003 is only crappy if you compare it to his 2002, which was brilliant. All in all, it was still above average. But, he doesn't have to be great to be be better than Brooks, who has less heart than anyone in the league, he only has to be in the top 28 QBs.

Pennington has evoked comparisons to Joe Montana. Brooks to Jeff George. That's all you need to know.
Oops. I actually feel like a real idiot now. I was looking at the stats of the wrong player in Yahoo. :confused:

I will say his 2003 stats of a 13-12 TD-Int ratio and 82.9 QB rating aren't exactly killer. However, he has a nice completion percentage and does suffer from being on the Jets and that could explain those previous two stats.

SI

[Glengoyne]

So, this season, he finally figured out how to what?

Run? His worst season, by far, of running.

Win? the Eagles won 11 or 12 games each of the last 4 years.

He has done the same things the whole time he did this year for all of the past four. The only thing that has changed is your perception of him.
OK let me spell it out again. He was consistent this year. In years past he has a number of off weeks, but the team wins despite of his lack of production. That makes the difference. Yes he occasionally had sparks of greatness. Then he would follow up with consecutive weeks of mediocrity. This year he put it all together. That is how I see it, at least.

I am not saying he is the best QB in the game, but now I can legitimately say he is one of the "top tier" QBs. Other QBs I'd put in that class include Manning, Favre, and McNair. He simply hadn't risen to that level before this season. He was one of many good QBs, but simply not top flight.

[BishopMVP]

*choke* Chad Pennington? You have got to be kidding me?!? And Hasselbeck- maybe, he finally might have turned a corner this year after being overrated and over his head for the longest time but I'm certainly not ready to put him up there with these other guys who have had success for a while. Heck, I'd take Aaron Brooks, Trent Green, and maybe even Jake Plummer before those two. Then again, McNabb is 27, which is middle aged for an NFL QB so I don't think it's fair to compare him by that bar- compare them on flat performance not "who would build a better team".

SI
2003 McNabb 6.7 y/a 79.6 QB Rating 16/11 TD/INT 57.5 Cmp %
Career McNabb 6.2 y/a 79.3 QB Rating 87/49 TD/INT 57.0 Cmp %

2003 Hasselbeck 7.5 y/a 88.8 QB Rating 26/15 TD/INT 61.0 Cmp %
Career Hasselbeck 7.1 y/a 83.9 QB Rating 50/33 TD/INT 60.0 Cmp %

2003 Pennington 7.2 y/a 82.9 QB Rating 13/12 TD/INT 63.6 Cmp %
Career Pennington 7.5 y/a 95.1 QB Rating 37/18 TD/INT 66.0 Cmp %

Now, numbers do not tell the whole story, and McNabb is a better runner than the other two, but I believe both Pennington and Hasselbeck are better. Notice I said for the current and future. If we were basing it on current season, I'd add Green and probably Favre ahead of McNabb. If we were going on the long-term alone I'd add Leftwich and probably Vick ahead of McNabb. Also, FWIW, McNabb is younger than both Hasselbeck and Pennington.

[BishopMVP]

OK let me spell it out again. He was consistent this year. In years past he has a number of off weeks, but the team wins despite of his lack of production. That makes the difference. Yes he occasionally had sparks of greatness. Then he would follow up with consecutive weeks of mediocrity. This year he put it all together. That is how I see it, at least.

I am not saying he is the best QB in the game, but now I can legitimately say he is one of the "top tier" QBs. Other QBs I'd put in that class include Manning, Favre, and McNair. He simply hadn't risen to that level before this season. He was one of many good QBs, but simply not top flight.His perfomance in the first 6 games drags him down, but almost every statistical indicator (Y/A went up) is down this year from the last two; QB Rating, Cmp %, YPG, TD/INT Ratio, Rushing Yards per game and Per Attempt, More fumbles, More Sacks.

Here is his game-by-game QB rating (rounded off) - 52, 33, 79, 52, 70, 29, 86, 105, 80, 133, 112, 86, 105, 69, 73, 125. The 5 100+ games were against ATL, NYG, NO, DAL, WAS. Of these, only Dallas is even decent at defending the pass.

He does improve as the game goes on (Qb Rating 76 1st Half, 83 3rd Q and 88 4th Q) but perhaps a more telling stat is that his QB Rating was 87 when ahead, 70 when tied and 77 when behind. He also has a worse QB Rating on 3rd down - 75 - than 1st and 2nd, respectively 78 and 86.

In short, I really don't think he has improved that much this year, and IMO, putting him in the group of elite QB's with the likes of Manning and McNair isn't right either.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

But would you take McNabb over either Brady or Pennington? McNabb is a good QB. He is not a great QB. He may become one someday, but he isn't now. Of course he's overhyped, almost every skill position player in the NFL who has been good for a couple years is. Is he overrated? I think so. If I was building a team and had to choose someone to be my QB of the current year and the future, McNabb would be at best 7th (behind McNair, Manning, Brady, Hasselbeck, Culpepper, Pennington, not necessarily in that order), but the media portrays him as being up around 1 or 2. Rush Limbaugh may be an idiot and a pompous ass, but I think he was right on this one (at least the part regarding the game of football, and not his social commentary).

I would over Pennington and boy it is a close choice between him and Brady. And that is coming from a Pats fan. I would take him over Culpepper because of the intangibles, plus he gets to throw to Moss, and I am not completely sold on Hasselback yet (and I live in Seattle) without a few more years under his belt.

I notice in other threads people still want to talk about stats, and that is a big mistake. For example, I am a Pats fan, but if all I had was Sportscenter and stats, Brady would not impress me that much. I watch him every Sunday on SundayTicket and WOW! it becomes very clear he is so much better than his stats. McNabb is much the same. Now watch Culpepper and your kind of like hmmm, not sure he is that good - he does not elevate his teammates.

And the big plus is that McNabb is going to get even better. I am not sure McNair will, so I might take McNabb over McNair even.

[BishopMVP]

I would over Pennington and boy it is a close choice between him and Brady. And that is coming from a Pats fan. I would take him over Culpepper because of the intangibles, plus he gets to throw to Moss, and I am not completely sold on Hasselback yet (and I live in Seattle) without a few more years under his belt.

I notice in other threads people still want to talk about stats, and that is a big mistake. For example, I am a Pats fan, but if all I had was Sportscenter and stats, Brady would not impress me that much. I watch him every Sunday on SundayTicket and WOW! it becomes very clear he is so much better than his stats. McNabb is much the same. Now watch Culpepper and your kind of like hmmm, not sure he is that good - he does not elevate his teammates.

And the big plus is that McNabb is going to get even better. I am not sure McNair will, so I might take McNabb over McNair even.
Coming from probably as big a Pats fan and as anti-NY as they come on this board, Chad Pennington was the best QB in the league last year. His stats this year, while coming back from injury were still better than McNabb's (and if you take out the 5-INT NE game, they are much much better, even after taking McNabb's horrible game against NE out too.)

Tom Brady is as close a comparison to McNabb statistically out of that group, and maybe I am either overrating him some because I'm a homer (probable) or McNabb is similar in that you need to see him every week to appreciate him (also possible.) But this season I haven't seen Brady make the horribly inaccurate throws in the dirt I have seen McNabb make 5-6 times each time I've seen him play. Also, while McNabb runs more and is faster, Brady has the best "pocket presence" - avoiding pressure and gaining an extra second or two - making their mobility about equal. On the topic of Brady, who when you watch has great "intangibles", you complain that people want to use stats, but I trust them more than subjective views (in general, not singling you out). Also, while they don't ever tell the whole story, they are the best we have.

Culpepper does have Moss (the most dangerous WR in the NFL when he tries) and it is hard to tell how much of an effect that has.

Hasselbeck has performed at an all-pro level the last 2 years. Subjectively, the part of his performance against GB I got to see was amazing.

You say that McNabb is going to get better, but the last 3 years he has not improved statistically, and if anything he has regressed. McNair had 3 average seasons similar to McNabb's and then started to put it together in 2000 statistically. Maybe McNabb will start turning the corner soon, but I'm not going to guarantee it.

[Samdari]

Oops. I actually feel like a real idiot now. I was looking at the stats of the wrong player in Yahoo. :confused:

I will say his 2003 stats of a 13-12 TD-Int ratio and 82.9 QB rating aren't exactly killer. However, he has a nice completion percentage and does suffer from being on the Jets and that could explain those previous two stats.

SI

13/12 is not killer. 22/6 is, as is the 9/3 he started this season with ("Oh my God. He's BETTER than last year. The 4TD/9INT finish was dreadful, and painful to watch. Hopefully he will be the 22/6 guy for all of next year.

While I hate the QB rating in general, the 82.9 was 11th in the league. Not killer, I agree, but in the top 3rd.

[Sun Tzu]

McNabb IMHO is an average passer, and a great runner. I wouldn't place him anywhere near the top 5 QB's in the league. That Philadelphia Eagle team is a great, great team. To me McNabb is just another peice of the puzzle. Peyton Manning is a great QB. You can't watch Manning make all of those adjustments pre-play and play the way he does, and not be able to admitt he is a great QB. However watching McNabb I am not even the slightest bit impressed with his passing. He is a very opportunistic runner, and he is great at avoiding the rush and "feeling" the rush. However his passes are for the most part innacurate, and to suggest that he actualy <i>carried</i> the team is absurd. To suggest that anyone has <i>carried</i> his team for that matter is absurd.