Too Articulate To Teach

[CamEdwards]

From the Atlanta Journal-Constitution (http://www.ajc.com/opinion/content/opinion/0104/23teacher.html)

Brains can hurt job applicants

By MARQUIS HARRIS


Could anyone imagine the day when an aspiring educator would be told that he is, in essence, overqualified?

Perhaps my story is merely an exception to the rule. In either circumstance, the outcome is appalling.

I am a 22-year-old African-American male and recent graduate of a respectable liberal arts college in Kentucky. I acquired a 3.75 grade-point average with a double major in Social Studies Secondary Education and sociology.

I was a Rhodes Scholar nominee, inducted into the Mensa society in May 2001, named to the National Dean's List for three consecutive years, successfully competed in intercollegiate forensics and served as student body president.

While in college I was also privileged to serve on mission trips to Mexico, Guatemala and Jamaica. In the summer of 2002 I was granted the opportunity to intern with Saxby Chambliss, who was then a U.S. representative running for the U.S. Senate. I served for two years as a court-appointed special advocate for the state of Kentucky.

These experiences have proved to be beyond memorable and life changing. I did not become another faceless statistic of a failed minority or foster care youth. I chose to take charge of my future rather than allow myself to fall prey to the alluring, though deceiving, clutches of victimhood.

As a young black male, I am often perceived as dumb, lazy, promiscuous and criminally inclined. If I sound at all pretentious for wanting to prove that I am anything but the above, then please accept my sincere apologies. In any event, lately it appears that my achievements have proved to be a liability rather than an asset.

Anyone who meets me will attest to the fact that I am an extremely passionate individual. My passion is for people, which explains my choice of studies. Originally I planned to attend law school after college, though I wasn't entirely sure this was the right path for me.

Over the summer, I came to realize that my true calling lay in inspiring, motivating, challenging and educating other young adults. After investigating, I assumed that Atlanta would perhaps be a viable market for teaching jobs. I applied to metro Atlanta counties including Fulton, DeKalb, Clayton, Cobb, Gwinnett, plus the Atlanta public schools, all to no avail.

Certification was not the issue. I am certified to teach in Kentucky and have applied for certification in Georgia. My application is still being processed.

Recently, I interviewed with a school in one of the metro Atlanta counties, only to receive an e-mail from the principal stating, "Though your qualifications are quite impressive, I regret to inform you that we have selected another candidate. It was felt that your demeanor and therefore presence in the classroom would serve as an unrealistic expectation as to what high school students could strive to achieve or become. However, it is highly recommended that you seek employment at the collegiate level; there your intellectual comportment would be greatly appreciated. Good luck."

After reading the e-mail several times over, I felt as if I had been slapped in the face. It is truly a sad day in the world of education when a 22-year-old aspiring educator is informed that he is too intellectual to teach high school.

I am neither looking for a handout nor a free ride. I would simply like some insight as to some possible answers to a seemingly unsolvable conundrum.

[sabotai]

He shoudl go teach in college and make a lot more money....duh. This guy is supposed to be a genius? :)

[Craptacular]

You can't teach in college anymore. You have to do research. Oh yeah, you have to stand in front of a class twice a week too.

[Easy Mac]

i think the guy discredits his whole argument by constantly saying his black. It doesn't make his argument any stronger, and there are just as many white people turned down from jobs for which their overqualified. Hell, I've been turned down for summer jobs because they said I was too smart to work their (they said someone of my intelligence shouldn't work at a job like Best Buy, I could do better).

Its one job, you woun't get shut out enerywhere. And what are they supposed to say "you're too dumb here, try to apply at a shitty school?" No, they say things that they think would make you feel good (overqualified, deserve better...) so the rejection is better. Don't college rejection letters nrmally say how grateful they are that you applied, and that even though your smart enough to go there, its not the right fit? (wasn't rejected, can't say)

It seems like a gesture the school felt would be good bakfired.

[SunDancer]

I think maybe the feel this guy will teach not from a book, but from his view and personal experiences? College will be perfect for that.

[finkenst]

here's the line that ticks me off: "It was felt that your demeanor and therefore presence in the classroom would serve as an unrealistic expectation as to what high school students could strive to achieve or become." What the fuck kind of a response is that from a principal? Hello? No wonder kids are dumbs as rocks these days.

[Godzilla Blitz]

"It was felt that your demeanor and therefore presence in the classroom would serve as an unrealistic expectation as to what high school students could strive to achieve or become."

Well it's all good and well for this guy to think he was rejected for being too smart, I think the real reason lies in this somewhat vague yet revealing sentence. "Demeanor", to me, hints at behavior, attitude, personality; the rest of the sentence hints at what is probably teaching presence/composure. Sounds like this guy came across wrong with his teaching skills, attitude, or something else. The sentence is a little unclear as to specifics, but the real reason the guy didn't get the job is not because he was too smart. That's just blowing smoke up his butt to make him feel better about not getting the job.

Being intelligent and successful in other endeavors helps in becoming a good teacher, of course, but to think it is a defining trait of good teachers is a mistake. I have seen bright people who can't teach a ball to roll. Matter of fact, I can honestly say I have seen bright people who are ineffective teachers precisely because they believe they are smarter (and therefore somehow better) than their students, and bright teachers who can't teach effectively at the secondary level because they don't realize that their students are struggling with step five in a process while they are trying to teach step nine.

Principals and administrators I know would jump at the opportunity to hire a guy with his academic and (to be honest) racial background if everything else (personality, teaching effectiveness, etc.) were solid. This guy can think what he wants, but the reason he didn't get the job is not because he was too smart, or somehow overqualified.

[Easy Mac]

I don't think we can make a fair judgement without a tape of the interview. Who knows how he came off in the interview.

[Bubba Wheels]

Two thoughts on the subject: 1. Many feel that behind-the-scenes-powers-that-be continue to 'dumb down' American kids through public education to create one giant, massive, gray-ooze of semi-educated illiterates to make it easier for the dictator-in-waiting to take over. Sounds far out? Your story really doesn't offer much evidence to dispute that theory, does it?

Then again, might just be the overall Public Education Scam that the teachers' unions and others in charge are running to prevent their monopolistic interests from being challenged and to keep tight control over anyone and everyone that is part of the public education system. Despite the so-called 'teacher's shortage' I hear of quite a few highly educated, newly certified teachers looking or jobs to no avail. After all, higher funding plus less teachers overall equals much more for those who are protected.

[CamEdwards]

Easy,

Re-reading his column, he mentions he's black exactly twice. Once at the beginning when he's describing himself, and once when he notes that he defies the "perception of a young black male".

I'm sure there's another side to the story, but as a parent I've gotta say that this sounds like the kind of candidate with whom you take a chance.

[Easy Mac]

"As a young black male, I am often perceived as dumb, lazy, promiscuous and criminally inclined. If I sound at all pretentious for wanting to prove that I am anything but the above, then please accept my sincere apologies. In any event, lately it appears that my achievements have proved to be a liability rather than an asset."

What is this paragraph there for? Should I feel sorry he's black? Should I give him a Happy Meal because he overcame being black? This is simply him pandering to a section of the public in hopes someone important will back him and force him to get hired.

To me, it demeans his whole argument. You get rejected from a job, get the fuck over it and get another. But don't bitch because they gave you a nice rejection instead of saying you suck.

And again, we have no idea how he came off in the interviews. I remember teachers in high school who showed off thier credentials and came off in a way to show how smart they are. I probably learned the least from these teachers, becuase as GB said, they couldn't teach. If the principal didn't get a good feeling from the guy, then he doesn't have to.

[Ksyrup]

Since we're taking shots at the current state of the public school system...

Now, I don't necessarily have a problem with the advice being given by the attorneys, since their job is to protect their clients. And if Tennessee law is screwy and the school system could arguably be found in violation of the law, then I think they are right to advise them accordingly and let the legislature fix it. My beef is with the type of people who are running the schools and hold beliefs such as those bolded below.


NASHVILLE, Tenn. (AP) — The school honor roll, a time-honored system for rewarding A-pupils, has become an apparent source of embarrassment for some underachievers.

As a result, all Nashville schools have stopped posting honor rolls, and some are also considering a ban on hanging good work in the hallways — all at the advice of school lawyers.

After a few parents complained their children might be ridiculed for not making the list, Nashville school system lawyers warned that state privacy laws forbid releasing any academic information, good or bad, without permission.

Some schools have since put a stop to academic pep rallies. Others think they may have to cancel spelling bees. And now schools across the state may follow Nashville's lead.

The change has upset many parents who want their children to be recognized for hard work.

"This is as backward as it gets," said Miriam Mimms, who has a son at Meigs Magnet School and helps run the Parent-Teacher Association. "There has to be a way to come back from the rigidity."

State law

The problem appears to be unique to Tennessee, because most states follow federal pupil privacy guidelines, which allow the release of such things as honor rolls, officials with the U.S. Department of Education said.

"It's the first time I've heard of schools doing that," department spokesman Jim Bradshaw said.

But Nashville school lawyers based their decision last month on a state privacy law dating back to the 1970s — a law that's not always followed because no one challenged the honor-roll status quo.

<!------ OAS AD 'Middle' begin ------><SCRIPT language=JavaScript><!--OAS_AD('Middle');//--></SCRIPT><!------ OAS AD end ------>

School officials are developing permission slips to give parents of the Nashville district's 69,000 pupils the option of having their children's work recognized. They hope to get clearance before the next grading cycle — in about six weeks at some schools.

Until then, school principals are left trying to figure out what they can and can't do.

Sandy Johnson, chief instructional officer for the Nashville schools, says the restrictions go "far beyond the honor roll."

"It's for anything having to do with grades and attendance or anything normally reserved just for the student or parent," she said.

Getting parents to sign permission slips won't help protect pupils from being left out, but at least it will comply with the law, school officials said.

Recommendation

Christy Ballard, general counsel for the state Education Department, said she's "getting a lot of calls" since the Nashville decision and will recommend that all Tennessee public schools get honor-roll permission slips from parents.

In Knoxville, school district spokesman Russ Oaks said officials do not think posting good information about a pupil violates state law. He said they put such information in the same category as sports statistics.

But some school systems already get parents to sign a release before pupil information is made public. Others think it might be a good idea to get rid of the honor roll altogether, as Principal Steven Baum did at Julia Green Elementary in Nashville.

"The rationale was, if there are some children that always make it and others that always don't make it, there is a very subtle message that was sent," he said. "I also understand right to privacy is the legal issue for the new century."

Baum thinks spelling bees and other publicly graded events are leftovers from the days of ranking and sorting pupils.

"I discourage competitive games at school," he said. "They just don't fit my worldview of what a school should be."

Parents at most schools, though, have been close to outrage over the new rule.

"So far, what we've heard parents say is, 'This is crazy; spend your time doing other things,'" said Teresa Dennis, principal at Percy Priest Elementary School. "It does seem really silly."

A similar issue over pupil privacy went to the U.S. Supreme Court two years ago, when some parents objected to pupils' grading each other's work. The court sided with tradition in that case, ruling the long-standing practice of teachers' asking pupils to swap papers and grade them in class does not violate federal privacy law.

"It's not always clear what falls into [the privacy laws]," says Naomi E. Gittins, an attorney with the National School Boards Association. "Schools often take a more cautious route."



Copyright 2004 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

[Godzilla Blitz]

Easy,

Re-reading his column, he mentions he's black exactly twice. Once at the beginning when he's describing himself, and once when he notes that he defies the "perception of a young black male".

I'm sure there's another side to the story, but as a parent I've gotta say that this sounds like the kind of candidate with whom you take a chance.

I don't know, Cam. It's not that long of a letter, and by bringing race up very early in the letter he gives it more weight. Also, the sentence about racial perceptions is playing with fire. I think Easy's point that race doesn't matter a whit in this guy's argument is a valid one, and the fact that the guy brings it up in an open letter like this makes me wonder if he maybe didn't overstate such issues when he was interviewing.

While I'm sure this guy is right on the button with his perceptions, all it would take would be one vague comment about racial perceptions in an interview to scare the crap out of a hiring committee. I think you could pull it off, but you'd have to be extremely careful how you state your opinions. It's one thing to motivate students, another to incite.

[sabotai]

I think GB is on to something with his thoughts. The word "Demeanor" jumped out at me too and I can easily see it that they were trying to say in a nice way that the guy acts like an elitist or something similar. After rereading his article, I'm starting to get the impression that he is like that. Some of the things he lists I have no idea why they are there. SOme of them are not qualifications for teaching.

I also got the same zibe as Easy did with the one paragraph. This first time through, I wondered why that paragraph was there and what it had to do with anything.

[Draft Dodger]

I'm 100% with Godzilla Blitz - I think there's more to this than this guy is seeing.

[Barkeep49]

I can't tell you how many times I've been told that I'm too smart to go into teaching. It does explain much of why are schools are so poor and teachers are thought of so poorly.

As to the original article itself race is absolutely relevant in this case. There are simply not enough African-American men in education. The idea that his achievements are "too" much is apalling. With so many African American children having no male in the house, school might be the only place for them to have a positive role model. It's too bad this guy is being denied his chance to do some good in the world.

[Godzilla Blitz]

I can't tell you how many times I've been told that I'm too smart to go into teaching. It does explain much of why are schools are so poor and teachers are thought of so poorly.

Were you thinking of teaching English writing, by chance? ;)

Sorry, that's not a fair shot, and I know it. But I just couldn't resist. Please forgive me.

As to the original article itself race is absolutely relevant in this case. There are simply not enough African-American men in education. With so many African American children having no male in the house, school might be the only place for them to have a positive role model.

Yes, I agree with you. But you make that argument well in your paragraph. I have no problem with him mentioning that he is black at the beginning of the piece, and his race is a factor in the story. However, his line about negative racial perceptions doesn't help that argument at all. It doesn't fit anywhere.

Edit: Deleted some stuff that didn't really say anything.

[Godzilla Blitz]

dola...

You know, the more I think about it, the more I think that race is not relevant to this guy's story. He is arguing that he is overqualified and too smart; that should be where his argument ends. Introducing the racial factor into his argument weakens his case. It seems to be saying, that "He didn't get the job because he's too intellectual, and how could they turn down a smart man who's black to boot?"

I don't think he tries to state this, but his racial perceptions line seems to be playing the race card or somehow implying that race should be a futher consideration to his getting hired, but to me it comes across more as something to make me wonder what the guy's attitudes are towards racial issues. I still don't see where that line fits in this guy's argument.

[Fonzie]

Edit: Deleted some stuff that didn't really say anything.

Whoa there, GB. Don't elevate posting standards too high. Were I to apply that principle to my posts I'm afraid that the above quote would become the only sentence I could write. :)

And for what it's worth, I'm with GB 100% here. There's more to this story than simply an "overqualified" applicant getting unfairly shafted.

[SunDancer]

As to the original article itself race is absolutely relevant in this case. There are simply not enough African-American men in education. The idea that his achievements are "too" much is apalling. With so many African American children having no male in the house, school might be the only place for them to have a positive role model. It's too bad this guy is being denied his chance to do some good in the world.


But is it the school's responsibility to take care of the children besides making sure they are being taught in a safe environment?

[JonInMiddleGA]

As to the original article itself race is absolutely relevant in this case. There are simply not enough African-American men in education.

And FWIW, you've just hit on why I felt like he made mention of race so prominently -- because the complaint about the lack of black males in teaching is something that is mentioned with great regularity, at least it is here in Georgia.

On the one hand, the quote from the reply doesn't surprise me in the least as I'm convinced that "dumbing down" is more prevelant in public education than it is in any other segment of society.

On the other hand, given the desparation with which schools here seem to have when it comes to hiring black male teachers, I can't help but wonder just how badly this guy must have botched his interview not to get the job.

[Glengoyne]

I too think the guy blew the interview. Elitist isn't necessarily a disqualifier for a teaching position. Coming off like an asshole during an interview probably is.

Anyone remember the story a few years ago where this guy wanted to become a cop? He took a standardized test, and they told him he wasn't hireable(sp?) because he was too smart. He eventually got the job, but I think he had to file a lawsuit, or maybe threaten one.

[Vince]

I don't like to post without saying much other than "what he said," but...what he said!

There is more to teaching than just knowledge, and the other stuff is sometimes more important than the knowledge itself, and after reading the message and some of the posts regarding it, the use of the word 'demeanor' does elicit a feeling that this man's problem is a problem of presence, not of 'over-intelligence.'

That being said, I don't think any of us can fairly judge the circumstances without having seen him in person...but my feelings lie in the area that he wasn't a good teacher though he was qualified for the post academically.

[Ben E Lou]

On the one hand, it is fully possible (and perhaps likely) that he misinterpreted the rejection letter. On the other, if he didn't misinterpret the rejection letter, then race is ABSOLUTELY important to mention in this case. As Jon mentioned, the lack of black males in teaching is mentioned all the time here. Further, of the six school systems he mentioned, four of them (Fulton, DeKalb, Clayton and Atlanta public schools) are OVERWHELMINGLY black. The underlying fear/concern for me here is that it was a principal from one of the majority-black school systems, and that this is another example of "dumbing down" things. I am not saying that this is the case by any means. There could be a lot that we don't know here. Judgment should be reserved in this case.

[BishopMVP]

Others think it might be a good idea to get rid of the honor roll altogether, as Principal Steven Baum did at Julia Green Elementary in Nashville.

"The rationale was, if there are some children that always make it and others that always don't make it, there is a very subtle message that was sent," he said. "I also understand right to privacy is the legal issue for the new century."

Baum thinks spelling bees and other publicly graded events are leftovers from the days of ranking and sorting pupils.

"I discourage competitive games at school," he said. "They just don't fit my worldview of what a school should be."
Competition exists in the real world. If the goal of schools is to prepare kids for this world, it must exist in the school system. This is an example of one of the most annoying attitudes I encounter from people, but there were so many things in the school system that were incredibly stupid. At my HS, they got rid of ranking the top students because there were a couple people who attempted to commit suicide when they fell to like 4th on the list.

What's my point? I have no idea, I guess just that the educational system is full of idiotic thinking and that it could probably use better scrutiny.

[JonInMiddleGA]

... it could probably use better scrutiny.

I don't believe all the scrutiny in the world can fix something that's this f'ed up.

[BishopMVP]

Probably true. I live in Massachusetts, supposedly the most well-educated state in the US, and my town is always in the Top 10 across the state for standardized testing, but there are still countless examples of how my school system was messed up.

[GrantDawg]

And FWIW, you've just hit on why I felt like he made mention of race so prominently -- because the complaint about the lack of black males in teaching is something that is mentioned with great regularity, at least it is here in Georgia.

On the one hand, the quote from the reply doesn't surprise me in the least as I'm convinced that "dumbing down" is more prevelant in public education than it is in any other segment of society.

On the other hand, given the desparation with which schools here seem to have when it comes to hiring black male teachers, I can't help but wonder just how badly this guy must have botched his interview not to get the job.
Let me "ditto" this and say if this guy really wants a job teaching high-school, I can get him one. It will not pay as well as the Fulton/Atlanta system, but it would be a job in the state system.

[corbes]

I teach high school, and I've got to say that some of the smartest people we have are also some of the worst teachers.

Now, we've got smart, intellectual people who are great teachers, too. I can name like 15 off the top of my head. But intellectualism and teaching skills do NOT necessarily go hand in hand.

Interpersonal skills are about the most important thing for a teacher to have. Reading that article, Mr. Harris came off as somewhat lacking in that department.

[clintl]

I absolutely agree that being extremely intelligent does not necessarily translate into good teaching skills. Communications skills are more important, and they need to be pretty advanced communications skills, too, to recognize the level on which your students will be engaged without seeming to talk down to them. My guess is that this is what they were concerned about - that he would either talk over their heads, and be unable to explain things in terms students at that level would understand, or he would overcompensate and talk down to them.

The other thing that isn't mentioned here is who his competition was for the position. It may have been someone equally as intelligent, but with better teaching skills.

[wig]

"Though your qualifications are quite impressive, I regret to inform you that we have selected another candidate. It was felt that your demeanor and therefore presence in the forum would serve as an unrealistic expectation as to what other forum members could strive to achieve or become. However, it is highly recommended that you seek enjoyment at another forum; there your intellectual comportment would be greatly appreciated. Good luck."

HEY! I got this same letter from a forum I got banned from!

-----> ;) <-----

wig

[wig]

Seriously, does anyone else think this guy is just making the story up because he was mad about being rejected?

wig

[rkmsuf]

Seriously, does anyone else think this guy is just making the story up because he was mad about being rejected?

wig

Maybe he has poor personal hygene and they are trying to let him off easy by telling him he is a genius...

[BishopMVP]

I absolutely agree that being extremely intelligent does not necessarily translate into good teaching skills. Communications skills are more important, and they need to be pretty advanced communications skills, too, to recognize the level on which your students will be engaged without seeming to talk down to them. My guess is that this is what they were concerned about - that he would either talk over their heads, and be unable to explain things in terms students at that level would understand, or he would overcompensate and talk down to them.

The other thing that isn't mentioned here is who his competition was for the position. It may have been someone equally as intelligent, but with better teaching skills.
I'm just picking one post here, but this is in general for the thought that he didn't have the personal skills.

This is probably true, and I agree with the thoughts, but the only thing still troubling me is this part of the letter "an unrealistic expectation as to what high school students could strive to achieve or become." Maybe the principal just expressed himself poorly in the rejection letter, but it wouldn't surprise me if he really intended this as it sounds, and this seems to be a not uncommon belief amongst educators.

[QuikSand]

Turning down a job applicant on the grounds of being "overqualified" is a tough thing to do, especially if the process gets to the point of being pretty personal (like an in-person interview with a "finalist" for a position). I have rejected applicants on these grounds before (being "overqualified," not the other add-ons from this particular case) and I think it's perfectly appropriate to do so... but it's a tougher call to make and explain than the more traditional "there was someone better than you."

[wig]

My problem with this whole thing is how this guy pumps himself up before saying how he was not hired because he is too smart.

Ten bucks says he did the same thing in his interview. He talked about how smart he was for 30 minutes and then wonders why he didn't get the job.

Yeah, you didn't get hired because you're too smart. It can't be because you're a pompus ass.

wig

[clintl]

This is probably true, and I agree with the thoughts, but the only thing still troubling me is this part of the letter "an unrealistic expectation as to what high school students could strive to achieve or become." Maybe the principal just expressed himself poorly in the rejection letter, but it wouldn't surprise me if he really intended this as it sounds, and this seems to be a not uncommon belief amongst educators.

I agree to some extent with you, there. However, there are a couple of things to consider. Perhaps his expectations really are too high - i.e., he is basing expectations of the abilities of the average student to be equal to his own, when clearly he is well above average intellectually for a college student. This is also not an uncommon mistake for highly talented people to make.

My guess is that it's not his intelligence that's holding him back. If that's all there was, he would find a job somewhere. I don't know what Georgia's interview process is, but I think in California, part of the process involves the demonstration of teaching a sample lesson. (At least, I've seen that on the web sites for several local school districts.) And if that's what's done in Georgia, perhaps he didn't do very well on that part of the interview, and that's where the concern about his suitability lies.

[SunDancer]

He says nothing of a Masters degree. Could this be a concern?

[BishopMVP]

I agree to some extent with you, there. However, there are a couple of things to consider. Perhaps his expectations really are too high - i.e., he is basing expectations of the abilities of the average student to be equal to his own, when clearly he is well above average intellectually for a college student. This is also not an uncommon mistake for highly talented people to make.

My guess is that it's not his intelligence that's holding him back. If that's all there was, he would find a job somewhere. I don't know what Georgia's interview process is, but I think in California, part of the process involves the demonstration of teaching a sample lesson. (At least, I've seen that on the web sites for several local school districts.) And if that's what's done in Georgia, perhaps he didn't do very well on that part of the interview, and that's where the concern about his suitability lies.
Based on the information we have for the individual case here, I'll agree with wig that he seems to be a pompous ass who is a better scholar than person, and possibly unsuited to be a teacher, so I'm not going to shed tears over him in particular.

In the big picture though, I'd rather have a teacher who may overestimate the ability of his students and encourages them to reach for a possibly unattainable goal than one who is just happy when the kids show up. I'm not saying it isn't a problem when a teacher tries teaching at too high a level for his students, but I think that people treat students and kids in general with the feeling that they must protect them, which smacks of a lack of respect. This whole movement towards things like no dodgeball because someone might break a nail and no competition in schools because someone's feelings may be hurt is going to screw over the youth in the future if it doesn't get stopped.

[John Galt]

Turning down a job applicant on the grounds of being "overqualified" is a tough thing to do, especially if the process gets to the point of being pretty personal (like an in-person interview with a "finalist" for a position). I have rejected applicants on these grounds before (being "overqualified," not the other add-ons from this particular case) and I think it's perfectly appropriate to do so... but it's a tougher call to make and explain than the more traditional "there was someone better than you."

Out of curiousity, what is the rationale behind dinging someone who is overqualified. I've usually understood that the fear with overqualified applicants is that they won't stay long and generally won't be happy while they are there. In the case of teaching, that doesn't seem like a concern because there is little room for advancement and promotion. Once you become a teacher, avenues for career growth are more limited. So, I would think the worries surrounding an overqualified candidate wouldn't apply. Am I missing something?

[wig]

On the strength of that post, Bishop is indeed MVP.

:)

[wig]

(see, because his username is actually "BishopMVP)

[mgadfly]

I think it is because he is 22 years old and has no experience. I'm not sure how it works in the rest of the world, but here in Spokane you usually have to get on the sub-list for awhile, get to know the people at the school, have the appropriate level of intelligence, and then do well at your interview.

[panerd]

They probably found a canididate who is better able to relate to kids and will make a better teacher. Like several people have said earlier in the thread the school's letter sounded like a nice way of saying "We think you came across as a pompous ass and we would rather have someone who is more down to Earth and easier to work with." My school hired a teacher to teach sixth grade math who had a math degree from Stanford University. Hands down worst teacher I have ever seen. I think we have all had one of these (especially in college). It is just really easy for everyone to talk about the dumbing down of America when it comes to public secotr jobs.

[Fonzie]

Just as an aside: in my academic-related job search experience I'd say its fairly rare for a rejection letter to contain much in the way of genuine feedback. Typically those letters say things like "there were many qualified candidates, including you, but we made a difficult decision and offered the position to another candidate. We wish you the best in your future endeavors" or some such. That the principal bothered to mention anything specific (granted, a between-the-lines specificity) with regard to their selection process tells me that they think the applicant may have potential, but he needs to work on that aspect of his presentation.

Assuming my interpretation is correct, I'd argue that the principal was actually doing him a favor by providing that feedback. As I mentioned before, it's a rare occurrence (in large part, I suspect, because of legal concerns), so when it happens it means that they're being particularly thoughtful with you, and the message should be taken to heart.

Of course, if this applicant is as smart as he claims to be he should've been able to read between those lines and figure that out, which would've precluded the need to write a whining letter to the local paper.

[QuikSand]

Out of curiousity, what is the rationale behind dinging someone who is overqualified. I've usually understood that the fear with overqualified applicants is that they won't stay long and generally won't be happy while they are there. In the case of teaching, that doesn't seem like a concern because there is little room for advancement and promotion. Once you become a teacher, avenues for career growth are more limited. So, I would think the worries surrounding an overqualified candidate wouldn't apply. Am I missing something?

Seems like a pretty fair point to me. Your description for the general rationale is the only one I'd have considered. I guess the potential for malcontentedness might manifest in other ways in a teaching setting, but there ought to be less delusion involved.


However, I'd say that the main element of this story really isn't that he wasn't hired (and we clearly don't knwo truly why that way) but rather the purported reason for doing so. If the school really was worried about the aspirational effects of a bright and successful teacher, that's awfully concerning to me.

[Young Drachma]

"As a young black male, I am often perceived as dumb, lazy, promiscuous and criminally inclined. If I sound at all pretentious for wanting to prove that I am anything but the above, then please accept my sincere apologies. In any event, lately it appears that my achievements have proved to be a liability rather than an asset."

What is this paragraph there for? Should I feel sorry he's black? Should I give him a Happy Meal because he overcame being black? This is simply him pandering to a section of the public in hopes someone important will back him and force him to get hired.



While I doubt I would have gone about the letter the way he did, I see his point. This is what I got out of the letter:

1) People often speak myths or buy into stereotypes (if you think he's lying, turn on the tv or read a right of centre newsmagazine) and this impacts (Whether you buy it or not) their perceptions of people and thus, what opportunities they are afforded.

He wanted to go to public schools to make a difference, rather than teaching college kids. I can understand that sentiment and appreciate that he would prefer to make less money, to actually impact lives at a very critical juncture.

If he'd recieved a note from the school district saying precisely what they told him, I'd be appalled too. But again, I would've gone about it different. What was glaring about it, was their lack of expectations on high school students.

He probably - as I would have - articulated that he wanted to demand higher standards from students, because too many teachers are giving students - of all races, but especially urban minority kids - a free pass, assuming they are too dumb and allowing them to scapegoat or marginalize themselves into oblivion.

The district's response is absurd, but I don't presume that given the situations he'd been in previously, that he was unknown to the ways of politicking or dealing with interviews. He surely did not go in there feeling a sense of entitlement because of his experiences, because its obvious to him that he could go somewhere if he chose to.

I think its just obvious here that the most glaring issue is the fact the school district made a bad choice and how they are spending our tax money to deprive children, especially in an age where some school districts are begging for people from the private sector to teach in schools (e.g. the President's SOTU address brought it up).

You mean to tell me that this person couldn't be an asset to a city school?

[Bubba Wheels]

The story states that the reason he was not hired was because he was too bright, too articulate, and hence an 'unrealistic role model.' This is the reason the public schools themselves gave, and as such should be taken on face value, no need to wonder about any other 'unreported details or concerns' factoring into his hiring that we wouldn't know about. Fact is, the public schools hiring in Atlanta have said that those candidates who would teach to the underpriveledged need to be 'a little bit dimmer, a little bit less intelligent' than this man was.

[Young Drachma]

After reading all your replies - and swearing a few times - I've actually come to the conclusion that whoever sent him a letter, must not have been very smart.

To teach in today's very crowded college market, he would need at least a masters degree or have all but his dissertion to do (ABD) before getting a PhD. The market is so saturated with PhDs that some of them are going for community college jobs.

That said, it simply makes no sense that they would tell him "Go to college". Though admittely, it would not surprise me, given the huge disconnect between some people in administrative positions.

Someone mentioned that black administrators were likely people who rejected him. That's of no consequence. You think black folks don't discriminate against each other? I don't think Mr. Harris' goal was to cry "racism", as many of you are implying.

I think it was more an exasperated, "What does a guy have to do, to be able to teach".

I find it highly interesting that most of the replies here have surrounded around, "What did he do wrong not to get the job" rather than "Damn, he must've got screwed."

To put his credbility on the line, to name drop in a major US newspaper - where you knew the story would have legs (I've seen it all over the web) - he would know that at some point, his story would be under a microscope.

The guy was a college debater, if you have ever participated in the fierce world of intercollegiate forensics and been remotely successful at it, you must know how to 1) prepare for any type of audience 2) speak clearly and succinctly and 3) not appear pompous, because it would reflect.

Based on his experiences prior to college, he obviously has some modicum of understanding that might be shed on his students. He's not some pompous uppity brand who came from the suburbs and is crying about being disenfranchised.

I'm sure there are myriad reasons he could have been rejected, but if its okay for folks who are rejected to law school and have their cases argued in front of the Supreme Court, surely its okay for him to write an op-ed.

But I doubt that this was some glaring indictment on the state of race in America - as some here seem to think - but instead, something to do with the education system in this country.

Admittely though, I wouldn't have brought up the Mensa thing. I mean, who cares? Or the National Dean's List, since most schools don't even bother with that silly thing that makes you buy the book if you want it. But I got the point of what he was trying to say. (Because instead of his credibility, others might have attacked whether he went to a decent school or not)

[JonInMiddleGA]

But I doubt that this was some glaring indictment on the state of race in America - as some here seem to think - but instead, something to do with the education system in this country.

Maybe I need to re-read this thread or something, but I haven't gotten the former vibe hardly at all, but got major doses of the latter.

[Bubba Wheels]

For most of our history, the United States has operated on the sound principle of "see monopoly, break monopoly." Somehow, though, the powers-that-be that operate the Public School Systems in the country have conned enough people into believing that even though the job they do isn't quite good enough, competition would make things worse! Think about that! In how many other instances has competition EVER been BAD for something in this country?

Fact is, monopolies protect entrenched interests (teacher's unions, tenure, ect...) and excellence that might rock the boat is seen as trouble, not a solution. Like the guy said in "The Breakfast Club:", "...if one stands up, then we might ALL stand up, and there would be chaos...."

Same thing here, competition would reward good teachers, good teachers would make bad teachers look worse, bad teachers would, leave, more good teachers would take their place..."and there would be chaos."

[corbes]

For most of our history, the United States has operated on the sound principle of "see monopoly, break monopoly." Somehow, though, the powers-that-be that operate the Public School Systems in the country have conned enough people into believing that even though the job they do isn't quite good enough, competition would make things worse! Think about that! In how many other instances has competition EVER been BAD for something in this country?

Fact is, monopolies protect entrenched interests (teacher's unions, tenure, ect...) and excellence that might rock the boat is seen as trouble, not a solution. Like the guy said in "The Breakfast Club:", "...if one stands up, then we might ALL stand up, and there would be chaos...."

Same thing here, competition would reward good teachers, good teachers would make bad teachers look worse, bad teachers would, leave, more good teachers would take their place..."and there would be chaos."


While your point is valid in some instances, I don't think it applies here. The faulty logic (which Mr. Harris uses, too) is:

The school district didn't hire Mr. Harris. Mr. Harris is intelligent. Therefore, school districts don't hire intelligent people.

[Bubba Wheels]

While your point is valid in some instances, I don't think it applies here. The faulty logic (which Mr. Harris uses, too) is:

The school district didn't hire Mr. Harris. Mr. Harris is intelligent. Therefore, school districts don't hire intelligent people.

Problem is, that is not my logic, that is the school board's OWN logic, as they spelled it out in Mr Harris' rejection notice.

[corbes]

Problem is, that is not my logic, that is the school board's OWN logic, as they spelled it out in Mr Harris' rejection notice.

I'm still not exactly sure that was the message they were trying to send the guy.

There is a strong climate today of "reaching every student". It really has nothing to do with No Child Left Behind policy -- that policy just steals the name to make the program sound good.

The trouble with overly aspirational, intelligent teachers (as has been mentioned before in this thread) is that they sometimes expect students to know too much, and don't reach all the students in the room.

This ISN'T dumbing down. A good teacher can present material basic enough to get all students on board, and then introduce the complexities that challenge advanced learners. Poor teachers either present only basic material, or only the complexities.

I make this mistake with my students all the time. I was doing a literary analysis with an honors-level junior just last week. I raised the standard too high, and the student ended up mimicking my ideas instead of coming up with her own. So she didn't learn anything from the project. That's my fault -- I was, essentially, too intelligent for the situation. The proper thing to do would have been to meet the student at her level. It's not dumbing down. It's teaching.

The message I got from the school board's letter was that they thought he would make a poor teacher, for this reason. They perhaps would have been better off to avoid an explanation.

[Bubba Wheels]

I'm still not exactly sure that was the message they were trying to send the guy.

There is a strong climate today of "reaching every student". It really has nothing to do with No Child Left Behind policy -- that policy just steals the name to make the program sound good.

The trouble with overly aspirational, intelligent teachers (as has been mentioned before in this thread) is that they sometimes expect students to know too much, and don't reach all the students in the room.

This ISN'T dumbing down. A good teacher can present material basic enough to get all students on board, and then introduce the complexities that challenge advanced learners. Poor teachers either present only basic material, or only the complexities.

I make this mistake with my students all the time. I was doing a literary analysis with an honors-level junior just last week. I raised the standard too high, and the student ended up mimicking my ideas instead of coming up with her own. So she didn't learn anything from the project. That's my fault -- I was, essentially, too intelligent for the situation. The proper thing to do would have been to meet the student at her level. It's not dumbing down. It's teaching.

The message I got from the school board's letter was that they thought he would make a poor teacher, for this reason. They perhaps would have been better off to avoid an explanation.

That still doesn't solve the biggest problem I have with the situation. Even if you are right in your analysis, the school board of all people should have the good sense and experience in hiring candidates to be able to communicate effectively with those that apply for positions with them. If the school board cannot communicate effectively with adults, then what does that say about them even attempting to communicate with students.

And take that last point one step further. If teaching is actually just effective communication, then it was Mr Harris who effectively communicated his side of things (agree or not with him), while the very experts in the field of communication (the school board) failed their own requirements.

[BishopMVP]

What is this? A school for ants? How can you teach the children when they can't even fit in the door?

[JW]

There is one aspect of this story you may not have considered, but it hit me when I looked at the guy's picture. Based on the photo alone, the guy looks like he leads a 'non-traditional' lifestyle. It is possible the principal did not want that image in his school. I am not saying the principal is right, but I think that may be part of the equation. And if I am right, the principal would never say that was the reason or part of the reason. I certainly believe, as some of you do, that the reasons given to the man for not hiring him are not the reasons he wasn't hired. And I also agree with some that the guy may well be the overbearing know-it-all type. That is a possibility. I think there is much more than meets the eye to this story, though I have a suspicion the photo tells part of the story.

[Aardvark]

I think maybe the feel this guy will teach not from a book, but from his view and personal experiences? College will be perfect for that.

To teach in a 4 -year college as anything other than a Teaching Assistant (graduate student who teaches recitation sections) or Adjunct (low-paid person who teaches lower level courses because there is a shortage of full faculty) he will need a PhD, or at least be in the process of finishing his PhD dissertation. (There are some fields, like teaching in the fine arts, where a Masters Degree might be acceptable.)

To teach at a two-year college requires at least a Masters Degree.