OOTP6 Info

[Ksyrup]

I just happened to check over at the OOTP board, and found the following thread that got started yesterday:

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=53741

[yabanci]

It looks like he made some good choices with regard to the new ratings.

[Danny]

Yes, as long as poise only has a small impact.

[Ksyrup]

Also, I hope the Stuff rating doesn't influence HRs too much. I mean, I see where he's going with that, but some pitchers with pretty good stuff (as used in the game, the tendency to strikeout batters) still yield a lot of HRs. I think Curt Schilling would fall into that category. I just hope we don't end up with a class of "super pitchers" who have a 12-1 K/BB ratio and give up 6 HRs per 300 IP or something like that.

[John Galt]

Also, I hope the Stuff rating doesn't influence HRs too much. I mean, I see where he's going with that, but some pitchers with pretty good stuff (as used in the game, the tendency to strikeout batters) still yield a lot of HRs. I think Curt Schilling would fall into that category. I just hope we don't end up with a class of "super pitchers" who have a 12-1 K/BB ratio and give up 6 HRs per 300 IP or something like that.

Even worse would be if they still had a 3.50 ERA because they consistently gave up more hits than every other pitcher. I can deal with the super pitchers more than the impossible/inconsistent stat pitchers (ie the problems created with K/BB ratios of 1/1 tied with a 2.00 ERA). But that maybe just me.

[Ksyrup]

I think he has modeled the ratings largely on the McCracken theory, because there's no reference to hits allowed as a rating or skill. And the Stuff rating relates to Ks and HRs, the only factors (aside from walks) that a pitcher can theoretically control. So, the less the ball gets put into play, the less opportunity for a hit, and what hits are allowed should be fairly random and in line with every other pitcher, with defense playing a part, as well. So, if you get a pitcher like Schilling with a high ERA, it is probably due to bad luck more than anything (maybe an exceedingly high number of HRs allowed).

At least, that's how I understand it to work. Now, whether the game will accurately portray this, we'll just have to see.

[John Galt]

I think he has modeled the ratings largely on the McCracken theory, because there's no reference to hits allowed as a rating or skill. And the Stuff rating relates to Ks and HRs, the only factors (aside from walks) that a pitcher can theoretically control. So, the less the ball gets put into play, the less opportunity for a hit, and what hits are allowed should be fairly random and in line with every other pitcher, with defense playing a part, as well. So, if you get a pitcher like Schilling with a high ERA, it is probably due to bad luck more than anything (maybe an exceedingly high number of HRs allowed).

At least, that's how I understand it to work. Now, whether the game will accurately portray this, we'll just have to see.

I'm hoping some form of DIPS is implemented, but given how long he stuck with that damn triples rating, I'm going to remain only cautiously optimistic. I'm hoping for the best, but I'm still worried it will be another let down.

[kcchief19]

It's a start at least. Ksyrup, I definitely see your point on Stuff, but unfortunately it doesn't sound like the rating will be used that much differently than it is now. It would help if the groundball percent rating were more effective. a power pitcher like Schilling often gives up a fair share of homeruns because most power pitchers are rarely also groundball hitters. But this comes back to the fact that OOTP does the outcome backwards -- because whether the batter reaches base or makes an out is determined first and then the style of out is determined, it means that the Stuff rating continues to keep HRs down while boosting strikeouts. If OOTP's engine determine the strikeout or put in play first, then determine fly ball or groundball, then on base or out, with impace from the groundball percentage rating, it might be possible for guys to strikeout hitters and give up HRs.

I like the idea of a poise rating, but I think it's misnamed. It seems like it's supposed be more of a "craftiness" or "savvy" rating rather than poise. Poise seems too imply a certain degree of "clutch" performance whereas what Markus seems to be trying for is simply the ability for some pitchers to makeup for a lack of velocity. My first thought was that this would ideally be only a positive -- a pitcher with a 9/9/9/1 ratings would be a stud, but maybe a 8/8/2/9 pitcher would be just as effective -- think Moyer v. Schilling. But when Markus says that a young pitcher with a a high poise rating won't know how to use his stuff, that doesn't make any sense to me -- if a young pitcher doesn't know how to use his stuff, it's either a case of he doesn't really have any stuff or he doesn't have any control, for which there is already a rating. Frankly, rather than see this new rating I'd like to see improved player development algorithm where a pitcher in their mid-30s continues to improve stuff and control but may lose velocity.

Kudos to the Gap rating -- hopefully this concept will result in fewer slugs with 15 triples a season and more extra-base hits for guys with power and speed.

[cincyreds]

I am already in line for it.

[dfisher]

I like the idea of a poise rating, but I think it's misnamed. It seems like it's supposed be more of a "craftiness" or "savvy" rating rather than poise. Poise seems too imply a certain degree of "clutch" performance whereas what Markus seems to be trying for is simply the ability for some pitchers to makeup for a lack of velocity. My first thought was that this would ideally be only a positive -- a pitcher with a 9/9/9/1 ratings would be a stud, but maybe a 8/8/2/9 pitcher would be just as effective -- think Moyer v. Schilling. But when Markus says that a young pitcher with a a high poise rating won't know how to use his stuff, that doesn't make any sense to me -- if a young pitcher doesn't know how to use his stuff, it's either a case of he doesn't really have any stuff or he doesn't have any control, for which there is already a rating.

I think you read what Markus said wrong. He never said that a young pitcher with a high poise rating won't know how to use his stuff. Here is what he said:

- Poise (influences the big picture... younger pitchers may have great stuff but no idea how to use it, while old veterans are losing velocity but still can pitch effectively with a high poise rating)

I think in his example, the younger pitcher would have a low poise rating as the opposite of his other example.

Dan

[kingnebwsu]

Yeah, we'll see what happens with OOTP 6. I've bought the last 3 versions and I'll probably buy this one too. IF it's solid out of the gate and the improvements are solid I'll buy it right away. Otherwise, I may wait til May/June. Hopefully it's fannnnntastic!!!

[CraigSca]

Every year I buy OOTP, and every year it gets closer to nirvana but seems to be missing pieces of the engine. Yeah, I hope he gets it right this year, and I'll cross my fingers upon purchase.

As I posted on their forum, I don't think he really means "poise". Unless I'm mistaken (which may well be), I always considered poise to be the ability (or PROPOSED ability) to perform while under increasing stress - i.e. to pitch when runners are on base, or when a fielder commits an error. For example, a Jeff Weaver who shows he's upset when there's an infield error and then quickly falls apart would have a low "poise" rating. What Markus seems to be speaking of (however) is the ability to "pitch" vs. the ability to "throw". For instance Frank Tanana was a thrower early in his career but became a "pitcher" after an injury. I'm not sure this is "poise".

Also, I wish he'd stop dealing with conjecture when it comes to his ratings. Emracing hot/cold streaks, clutch...hell, even poise at this point - it's all great fodder on ESPN - but does it REALLY exist? Are there studies out there that prove that Joe Blow has poise while Bob Smith does not? Sure, it SOUNDS right, but I don't want my replay effected by unproven hearsay.

I'd love to have Markus' ear for a second regarding this stuff (man, what an ego I must have, huh? - lol) but it's his game, and he obviously can put anything he wants in it.

[kcchief19]

dfisher, sorry, I did understand what Markus was saying, I just suffered from a typo. This is that I mean: But when Markus says that a young pitcher with a LOW poise rating won't know how to use his stuff, that doesn't make any sense to me -- if a young pitcher doesn't know how to use his stuff, it's either a case of he doesn't really have any stuff or he doesn't have any control, for which there is already a rating.

Agreed, I don't think he really means poise. But the idea of the rating hits me in a funny way. We'll see how it is implemented. But if the concept is that poise is related to how you use your stuff, then it seems to me that the poise rating only acts as a modifier for the Stuff rating -- it either helps or hurt the Stuff rating. From what he wrote, it seems like he is trying to create OOTP pitchers that get better with age or succeed despite a lack of velocity. It seems like there is a better way to achieve that within the existing ratings rather than create a new rating that seems misleading and/or misapplied. But we'll wait and see. I give him credit for trying something different.

[Fidatelo]

He's not a thrower he's a passer... I wanna kiss you!

[ISiddiqui]

I am already in line for it.

Me too! Bring it on, Marcus, I'll get it as soon as it comes out.

[Markus Heinsohn]

Every year I buy OOTP, and every year it gets closer to nirvana but seems to be missing pieces of the engine. Yeah, I hope he gets it right this year, and I'll cross my fingers upon purchase.

As I posted on their forum, I don't think he really means "poise". Unless I'm mistaken (which may well be), I always considered poise to be the ability (or PROPOSED ability) to perform while under increasing stress - i.e. to pitch when runners are on base, or when a fielder commits an error. For example, a Jeff Weaver who shows he's upset when there's an infield error and then quickly falls apart would have a low "poise" rating. What Markus seems to be speaking of (however) is the ability to "pitch" vs. the ability to "throw". For instance Frank Tanana was a thrower early in his career but became a "pitcher" after an injury. I'm not sure this is "poise".

Also, I wish he'd stop dealing with conjecture when it comes to his ratings. Emracing hot/cold streaks, clutch...hell, even poise at this point - it's all great fodder on ESPN - but does it REALLY exist? Are there studies out there that prove that Joe Blow has poise while Bob Smith does not? Sure, it SOUNDS right, but I don't want my replay effected by unproven hearsay.

I'd love to have Markus' ear for a second regarding this stuff (man, what an ego I must have, huh? - lol) but it's his game, and he obviously can put anything he wants in it.

Maybe I need another term for 'poise'... what I really mean is the ability to succeed, even when the velocity or pure stuff isn't that good. Anyway, it will not be a huge factor...

As I stated many times before, the 'clutch' rating is a really small factor. Really, really small. I know the studies about that issue, and the basic word is that IF clutch exists, it's really a very small factor - just like in OOTP :)

Craig, my ear is called [email protected], I'd love to discuss anything you have in mind :P

Cheers,
Markus

[moore4807]

Maybe I need another term for 'poise'... what I really mean is the ability to succeed, even when the velocity or pure stuff isn't that good. Anyway, it will not be a huge factor...

As I stated many times before, the 'clutch' rating is a really small factor. Really, really small. I know the studies about that issue, and the basic word is that IF clutch exists, it's really a very small factor - just like in OOTP :)

Craig, my ear is called [email protected], I'd love to discuss anything you have in mind :P

Cheers,
Markus

Markus,
Yes another term for poise is needed...maybe call it focus
Everyone - hows THAT for responsiveness!

[daedalus]

The aforementioned "crafty" or "craftiness" would be better than either "poise" or "focus".

[CraigSca]

Maybe I need another term for 'poise'... what I really mean is the ability to succeed, even when the velocity or pure stuff isn't that good. Anyway, it will not be a huge factor...

As I stated many times before, the 'clutch' rating is a really small factor. Really, really small. I know the studies about that issue, and the basic word is that IF clutch exists, it's really a very small factor - just like in OOTP :)

Craig, my ear is called [email protected], I'd love to discuss anything you have in mind :P

Cheers,
Markus

Incoming email, Markus, with a lot of ideas that I'll be using for FB2. You seem to be much further along on your project, anyway - ha!

[Markus Heinsohn]

Incoming email, Markus, with a lot of ideas that I'll be using for FB2. You seem to be much further along on your project, anyway - ha!

Hehe... good stuff :) Guys, this conversation will lead to some nice upgrades. Thanks so much, Craig! :D

[damnMikeBrown]

Aren't I pleased.

[lynchjm24]

Fortitude instead of poise.