Todd Bertuzzi breaks Steve Moore's neck

[Sun Tzu]

hxxp://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=1754963

Aparently they are bringing up charges on Bertuzzi. In my opinion this is idiotic. It may have been a cheap shot, but that's like bringing up charges against Warren Sapp for his blindside shot earlier this year. Hockey is a violent game, and the only game that I know of where punching somebody isn't frowned upon. Now somebody gets punched and freakishly breaks his neck, and the entire hockey world is trying to place the blame of every violent act that has ever happened in game on Todd Bertuzzi. The amount of finger pointing going on makes me sick to my stomach. I'm about positive that 100% of the players/former players calling for Bertuzzi's head have gotten in their fair share of cheap shots as well. I'm not saying what he did was right, but again IMO they are taking this way too far. Let Bertuzzi apologize, serve a suspension, and have this be over with.

[Maple Leafs]

If anyone missed it, there's been extensive discussion about this incident in the NHL thread.

[hukarez]

That looks like a cheap shot to me...good grief, face first into the ice. Looks like he was already unconscious on the way down? :confused:

[Sun Tzu]

If anyone missed it, there's been extensive discussion about this incident in the NHL thread.

Whoops, sorry. I don't really check that thread as I'm not a big hockey fan.

[cincyreds]

Honestly? And this my opinion only, so don't get angry or flame me for my comments please.

I saw it countless times last night on ESPN and I think the guy meant to do it. There is no doubt about that. It was an absolute dirty rotten, no good for nothing cheap of all cheapest of cheap shots. I mean c'mon, from behind when he didn't see it coming??

Bertuzzi may have ended this kids playing career and his chance of making a living at what he is talented enough to do and that is playing hockey.

My verdict: I think Bertuzzi should be suspended without pay for however long Moore is out. If Moore misses 30-40 games, I think Bertuzzi should be out that long also.

This kind of stuff is what has turned me off from hockey, I mean I love the Stars and all but the NHL needs to tighten up and make an example out of Bertuzzi and really hand it to him. I wish they would ban guys who do these kinds of things for life from the NHL. One time would do it to and it would put a stop to it all.

I enjoy hockey because of the skill level, not for some stupid cheap shot from some guy who is obviously a coward. That hit is just sickening to watch, it really is.

[sachmo71]

I thought they were supposed to announce his punishment this morning at 9 EST. I can't find anything, yet.

[Travis]

The thing that works against Todd in this one is timing. The hit on Naslund by Moore was during the second period (if memory serves). Nobody on the Canucks went after him right after the hit, or any time during that game. Following the game, Crawford was lamenting how little respect the top scorer in the league got from the refs as no penalty was called (quick q: why should it matter who got hit, a penalty is a penalty is a penalty Crawford, don't cry because it was your star that got hit with no penalty call, I should hope you'd stand up for your 4th line guys in the same way).

Because of all the 'outrage' from the Canuck players following the game (even though they felt no need to back up their captain when it happened), they pretty much put a bounty out on Moore, and in light of that, Todd's act in the last game was nothing more than premeditated assault. While most infractions on the ice are spontaneous, or agreed upon fights by the enforcers, this has no place in the game. All he had to do was spin Moore around and give him the chance to defend himself and nobody would be on Bertuzzi's case about this, and hell, he probably would have pounded Moore into next week in a fair fight.

As somebody who has never been a fan of Bertuzzi, I've been trying to keep a somewhat objective viewpoint on this incident because it would be entirely too easy just to discount him completely, and while breaking Moore's neck was obviously not his intention, the entire act disgusts me, and I hope people don't forget about this any time soon.

[Travis]

I thought they were supposed to announce his punishment this morning at 9 EST. I can't find anything, yet.

Wasn't that when he and Crawford were going to be meeting with NHL officials? Not sure how long that kind of meeting would take, and how long it would take for said officials to dole out a punishment, but I would hope for something this afternoon.

[Draft Dodger]

the hearing was for 9am, but it's been delayed.
I assume it will still happen today at some point.

[Maple Leafs]

Under the circumstances, I'd assume that they'll try to get a decision out today. The league needs to be seen as acting quickly on this.

[MacroGuru]

You know, your right, Hockey is a rough game, but comparing this to Warren Sapp? Sapps was a legitimate hit. This was a blindside punch, with Bertuzzi riding Moore down to the ice, and pushing his head into it, rendering the man unconcious.

I join a lot of the others when I say toss him out for a year.

[Maple Leafs]

Here's an interesting take on the incident:
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1078873816572&call_pageid=968867503640&col=970081593064

I don't agree with Cox on much, and I think he's being a little bit over-dramatic here, but he makes some decent points.

Hockey's culture of violence must end
Don't expect NHL to raise its voice


DAMIEN COX

Todd Bertuzzi has no defence.

Sadly, like Marty McSorley, Matt Johnson and all the other on-ice thugs that have created mayhem and hurt people before him, Bertuzzi will nonetheless have his defenders.

The mad cycle of NHL violence goes round `n' round largely because the industry is so devoid of true leaders willing to separate themselves from the pack mentality that defines the politically correct line on so many issues.

That line heard over and over yesterday was that Bertuzzi's unprovoked, unwarranted and cowardly attack on Colorado's Steve Moore two nights ago that left Moore with a fractured neck was an "unfortunate" incident.

Unfortunate? Try sickening, despicable and an affront to the sport.

But you won't hear that from this league, an environment in which goalies were once labelled as sissies for wearing masks and players thought of as less-than-manly for wearing helmets.

You won't hear a player or coach or GM or union rep stand up and call for justice on behalf of Moore. You likely won't hear any significant figures in the sport demand the NHL put an end to these vicious incidents that every two or three years lands one of the league's players in a criminal court.

You will only hear excuses and clichés and silence and empty apologies.

It's all part of a sick, age-old hockey mentality. A running back in football can cut through a hole and get drilled by a middle linebacker, and then shake off the blow and retreat to his huddle.

He doesn't demand that a player on his own team cross to the other huddle and challenge that linebacker to a fight.

In hockey, however, every clean hit is an insult to be avenged.

Every issue, to those who believe in this culture, is best resolved with fists.

You hit our guy, we high-stick you.

You knock our guy out, we put your guy in the hospital.

As long as that remains the dominant mentality, people like Steve Moore will have to suffer now and then.

Bertuzzi's boss, Vancouver Canucks GM Brian Burke, suggested yesterday that this incident should not be compared to Marty McSorley's infamous chop to the head of Donald Brashear four years ago.

Burke's right. This one's worse.

Brashear, at least, had sparred with McSorley earlier in that game. Moore, on the other hand, had done nothing to Bertuzzi during Monday's contest.

Yet Bertuzzi stalked Moore with the game far out of hand in favour of the Avs, ostensibly to seek revenge for a hit against a teammate three weeks earlier.

When Moore turned his head to continue playing the game, the 6-foot-4, 245-pound Bertuzzi struck with true cowardice, driving his gloved fist into the side of the unsuspecting Moore's head.

As Moore fell, Bertuzzi used his forearm to drive his opponent's head into the ice. As Moore lay there, face down and unconscious in a pool of blood, Bertuzzi drew his arm back to punch him again.

Thank goodness Andrei Nikolishin, Moore's teammate, was there to prevent the killer shot.

And it might well have been a killer shot.

There was premeditation. There was intent to injure. There was extreme violence.

For this, Bertuzzi should forfeit his right to participate in the NHL.

He should be banned for the rest of this season, including the playoffs, and if someone wants to make an argument for a permanent ban, I'd sure be willing to listen.

Moreover, Bertuzzi's coach, smirking Marc Crawford, should receive an enforced holiday, as well.

He could have called off the dogs in the third with his team down by six goals, but instead kept pushing Brad May and Wade Brookbank over the boards to create more trouble.

He helped create the bloodlust that encouraged Bertuzzi to do something terrible.

So call the courts in one more time.

Hand down the stiff suspensions one more time.

And then watch the sick cycle of NHL violence begin anew.

[Draft Dodger]

"Moreover, Bertuzzi's coach, smirking Marc Crawford, should receive an enforced holiday, as well."

I agree 100%, not that it'll happen.
seeing him smirking on the bench after it happened is one of the most sickening things I've seen in a while.

[RendeR]

this article mentions mcsorley's chop of brashear, what ever happened to mcsorley? I thought he got banned for that? or there were civil charges or something?

I have not yet seen this hit on tv, I just haven't caught it on espn...I'll with hold my finaly opnion until then, but from everything I've heard and read, the man ought to be tried for assault with intent to injure or whatever the highest charge of assualt might be.

this is just rediculous.

[hukarez]

I don't quite follow hockey as avidly as I do with football...but does this Bertuzzi fellow have history for stuff like this? Is it the Romanowski equivalent of the NHL? :confused:

[Maple Leafs]

this article mentions mcsorley's chop of brashear, what ever happened to mcsorley? I thought he got banned for that? or there were civil charges or something?
He received an indefinite suspension, which turned out to be one year. There were also criminal charges that resulted in a suspended sentence and community service (no jail time).

But McSorely isn't necessarily a great comparison. He was an aging player in his final year, and a fourth line role-player. Whatever you think of what he did, he was an easy guy to drop the hammer on. Nobody was going to complain too loudly if the league made an example out of him. Bertuzzi -- a young superstar on a contending team -- is a tougher call.

Bertuzzi does have a history, although nothing like this. He's been suspended for fighting-related incidents in the past, and is a guy who does play with an edge (as they say).

[Draft Dodger]

McSorley is currently the coach of the AHL Springfield Falcons (Coyote's farm team).
there's talk of Gretzky bringing him in to coach the 'Yotes at some point.

[CubsFan915]

McSorley is currently the coach of the AHL Springfield Falcons (Coyote's farm team).
there's talk of Gretzky bringing him in to coach the 'Yotes at some point.

Great. A whole team of cheap-shotting thugs. Exactly what the NHL needs. :rolleyes:

[sachmo71]

I'm done with fighting in the NHL. I used to think it had it's place, but if they outlaw all of this...make it illegal to punch a guy delibertly, at least, maybe this sort of thing will end.

[Mota]

I personally think that hockey is stupid.

And yes, I'm Canadian. But let me make a correction, I think the NHL is stupid. In the NHL penalties are considered good. Bertuzzi is leading his team in penalty minutes, and that means that he has an "edge". But how many power plays has he given his opposition, and in turn how many goals did it cost them?

That's like if in the NFL a DL keeps getting false starts. "He's really anxious to get into the play!", the NHL announcers would say. The truth is he's costing you yards.

I'm all for the sport of hockey. The sport where speed, skill, shooting gets you goals. And good hitting gives you an advantage in the open ice and corners. I'm totally against what the NHL represents today ... neutral zone traps, goons, cheap shots and fights. I think that makes a good sport into the most boring show on the planet.

And I also think that the NHL is asking for things like this to happen. By encouraging fighting and considering it part of the game, you're giving people an outlet for their anger and frustration. And people get carried away, causing incidents like this.

Sorry if I offend anybody with this attitude.

[corbes]

I think there's a difference between standard hockey fighting and criminally assaulting someone. There's a line there, even if you are playing sports when it happens.

[KevinNU7]

He should be suspended until Moore comes back. If Moore doesn't come back then niether does Todd

[Honolulu_Blue]

I'm done with fighting in the NHL. I used to think it had it's place, but if they outlaw all of this...make it illegal to punch a guy delibertly, at least, maybe this sort of thing will end.

Is this a result of fighting? Moore's injury wasn't a result of a fight, in fact it was the opposite, the result of not fighting. I am not saying that Moore should have fought Bertuzzi or deserved what he got for not dropping the gloves.

There is the old argument to be made that if the instigator rule wasn't in place, this sort of thing would have been dealt with weeks ago when it happened. Someone would have immediately dropped the gloves, there would have been a "fair" or at least face-to-face fight (likely resulting in little to no injury) and the would have been it. It wouldn't have had to come of this. In fact, Moore's fight with Matt Cooke should have been the end of it. Bertuzzi acted like an idiot.

I can see the argument being made that if fighting weren't apart of the game, Bertuzzi wouldn't have punched him and the like. Well, that may be true, may be he just would have taken his stick to him or something along those lines.

Bertuzzi's action was horrible. There is no defense for it. It mars the sport. That being said, I still think there is a place for fighting in the game.

[Sun Tzu]

I don't think this would have gotten half as overblown as it did if Moore only wound up with a broken nose and a bad headache. I have seen nastier shots that resulted in next to nothing as far as injuries go. I was comparing this to the Warren Sapp incident because of the seriousness of the injury, and the fact that neither of the recipients were looking when it came. That is the only comparison I was intending to make. Sapp did not blast that guy from the front, nor was it from behind, but it was kind of behind/from the side.

[druez]

The thing that works against Todd in this one is timing. The hit on Naslund by Moore was during the second period (if memory serves). Nobody on the Canucks went after him right after the hit, or any time during that game. Following the game, Crawford was lamenting how little respect the top scorer in the league got from the refs as no penalty was called (quick q: why should it matter who got hit, a penalty is a penalty is a penalty Crawford, don't cry because it was your star that got hit with no penalty call, I should hope you'd stand up for your 4th line guys in the same way).

Because of all the 'outrage' from the Canuck players following the game (even though they felt no need to back up their captain when it happened), they pretty much put a bounty out on Moore, and in light of that, Todd's act in the last game was nothing more than premeditated assault. While most infractions on the ice are spontaneous, or agreed upon fights by the enforcers, this has no place in the game. All he had to do was spin Moore around and give him the chance to defend himself and nobody would be on Bertuzzi's case about this, and hell, he probably would have pounded Moore into next week in a fair fight.

As somebody who has never been a fan of Bertuzzi, I've been trying to keep a somewhat objective viewpoint on this incident because it would be entirely too easy just to discount him completely, and while breaking Moore's neck was obviously not his intention, the entire act disgusts me, and I hope people don't forget about this any time soon.


Travis from my understanding they weren't allowed to do anything that game by their coach. 2 minute instigating and 10 minute misconduct goes to the instigator in that situation.

That instigator penality in my opinion has allowed hockey to turn into a sport of cheap shots. Back in the day, you thought twice about taking shots at stars because their was retribution to be paid. If you saw moores hit on naslund it wasn't clean either.

Hockey is a sport for a warriors mentality but Bettman has come in ruined it all.

[MrBug708]

Is there a link of the hit on video? Other then ESPN?

[gstelmack]

I'm all for the sport of hockey. The sport where speed, skill, shooting gets you goals. And good hitting gives you an advantage in the open ice and corners. I'm totally against what the NHL represents today ... neutral zone traps, goons, cheap shots and fights. I think that makes a good sport into the most boring show on the planet.
The same thing has happened to basketball, and has ruined the NBA (and is working on ruining the college game) for me.

[Mota]

"There is the old argument to be made that if the instigator rule wasn't in place, this sort of thing would have been dealt with weeks ago when it happened. "

That's exactly what I'm against. People think that fighting is the resolution to everything in hockey. There's no instigator rule in basketball, but do you see people deliberately taking people out at the knees, or mugging people from behind? Nah, because they know that it's not part of the game and that they'll get punished for their actions.

[Draft Dodger]

Is there a link of the hit on video? Other then ESPN?

the one I saw was
http://www.hockeyfights.com/cf277/040308_bertuzzi_cheapshots_moore.wmv
but it seems to be hosed at the moment

[Maple Leafs]

I'm totally against what the NHL represents today ... neutral zone traps, goons, cheap shots and fights. I think that makes a good sport into the most boring show on the planet.You make some good points. But with the exception of the trap, none of the things you mentioned are new to the NHL. In fact, there's been far less fighting and brawling in the past ten years than in just about any era in league history.

You could certainly argue that any fighting is too much, but implying that the NHL is turning into a more violent game isn't really accurate.

[Castlerock]

I still think there is a place for fighting in the game.
And that is why I will never care about the NHL. I love college hockey but the NHL holds zero interest. Yawn.

[Honolulu_Blue]

And that is why I will never care about the NHL. I love college hockey but the NHL holds zero interest. Yawn.

Funny. I'm the exact opposite. I even went to a big time college hockey school (we won the National Championship while I was there). I enjoyed, but the college game pales in comparison to the NHL. Fighting is one very small difference. The other is simply talent and speed. The gap between the level of talent and speed in the NHL and that in college hockey is enormous. After growing up watching the NHL, I find college hockey almost frustrating to watch at times.

[druez]

"There is the old argument to be made that if the instigator rule wasn't in place, this sort of thing would have been dealt with weeks ago when it happened. "

That's exactly what I'm against. People think that fighting is the resolution to everything in hockey. There's no instigator rule in basketball, but do you see people deliberately taking people out at the knees, or mugging people from behind? Nah, because they know that it's not part of the game and that they'll get punished for their actions.


Point #1. There are quite a few fights in basketball also.

Point #2. The NBA is scripted almost as bad as the WWF

Point #3. Basketball is not a contact sport like hockey.

Point #4. There are quite a few fights in Rugby and Lacrosse both games that have similiar play styles to hockey.

[Samdari]

Point #1. There are quite a few fights in basketball also.

Point #2. The NBA is scripted almost as bad as the WWF

Point #3. Basketball is not a contact sport like hockey.

Point #4. There are quite a few fights in Rugby and Lacrosse both games that have similiar play styles to hockey.

Wow, all your points are wrong. Impressive quad.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Point #1. There are quite a few fights in basketball also.

Point #2. The NBA is scripted almost as bad as the WWF

Point #3. Basketball is not a contact sport like hockey.

Point #4. There are quite a few fights in Rugby and Lacrosse both games that have similiar play styles to hockey.

There is no sport, that I am aware of, in which fighting is a part of the game, like it is in hockey (except maybe professional indoor lacrosse, but I can't recall). Even if there are fights in some sports (rugby, football, lacrosse) the combatants will most certainly be ejected.

I think it's a fair argument that hockey players are more likely to punch one another as a reaction to some injustice than other sports because figthing is legal and has always been a big part of the game. It filters down to the college level and other junior level leagues where fighting is banned.

[Maple Leafs]

I may be alone in this, but I would much rather see two hockey players drop the gloves and fight each other than:
- Football players slashing their throats, riding imaginary ponies and crotch-chopping each other after every play
- Two basketball players trying to act tough for the camera while making sure their teammates are holding them back
- A baseball "brawl" with two guys hugging and 50 others running onto the field, including relievers in their slippers

[druez]

Wow, all your points are wrong. Impressive quad.

How can you say that?

Are you saying there aren't fights in basketball? Ok whatever.

Sure, I was being sarcastic about the scripting of the NBA, but look at Jordans last championship run against Birds Pacers where the officials decided the game so Jordan could goto another final. Looks real bad.

Basketball is no where close to being a contact sport like hockey. You can't check? Not sure what you are talking about.

Every watch Rugby or Lacrosse either box style or outdoor. There are ALOT of fights in both of those events.

So please try and think before posting thank you.

[druez]

There is no sport, that I am aware of, in which fighting is a part of the game, like it is in hockey (except maybe professional indoor lacrosse, but I can't recall). Even if there are fights in some sports (rugby, football, lacrosse) the combatants will most certainly be ejected.

I think it's a fair argument that hockey players are more likely to punch one another as a reaction to some injustice than other sports because figthing is legal and has always been a big part of the game. It filters down to the college level and other junior level leagues where fighting is banned.

From my understanding of Rugby, you don't get ejected for fighting you get in a penalty box of sorts. I could be wrong, I don't know all the rules even though I watch it any chance I get on fox world sports. I know I saw some punches thrown in the rugby world cup and the players weren't ejected.

Long time Flyer Fan from the Philly area. If there was no fighting, the broad street bullies would of never won :(

[corbes]

Mota's post was about the instigator rule, not fighting in hockey vis a vis other sports.

[Castlerock]

Funny. I'm the exact opposite. I even went to a big time college hockey school (we won the National Championship while I was there). I enjoyed, but the college game pales in comparison to the NHL. Fighting is one very small difference. The other is simply talent and speed. The gap between the level of talent and speed in the NHL and that in college hockey is enormous. After growing up watching the NHL, I find college hockey almost frustrating to watch at times.
Can you imagine how fun it would be to watch the talent and speed in the NHL playing hockey with rules similar to the college game? But it'll never happen so I'll contine to not care about the NHL.

[Draft Dodger]

I may be alone in this, but I would much rather see two hockey players drop the gloves and fight each other than:
- Football players slashing their throats, riding imaginary ponies and crotch-chopping each other after every play
- Two basketball players trying to act tough for the camera while making sure their teammates are holding them back
- A baseball "brawl" with two guys hugging and 50 others running onto the field, including relievers in their slippers

you are not alone.

[bhlloy]

Fact - there have been more of these incidents since the instigator rule was introduced. Fighting had a place in the game, they removed that without any thought of the consequences because they were trying to pander to a new market.

For me, hockey is (or was) about skill, big hits and fights. My opinion and an opinion that many hockey fans share. Call me a neanderthal or whatever but I don't see why my opinion is any less valid than yours.

The real problem in hockey is that the superstars have gone. Gretzky, Lemeiux, Orr etc... were all incredibly talented, down to earth guys who performed night in and night out. They were the reason people were drawn to hockey. The league has overexpanded and the talent has run thin... can anyone name one guy nowadays who you would actually pay good money to see?

[bhlloy]

dola - great post by Maple Leafs. Sums up what I wanted to say.

The Rugby argument... there might be less out and out fights in Rugby but there is 2x the violence and serious injuries that there are in hockey. Stamping, gouging, biting etc.... I know which sport I would rather stay away from if I hated violence

[Mota]

Maple Leafs, you are right. But comparing today's game of hockey with the 1-1 ties against the 5-4 games of the 80's is a whole different thing. Man, it was fun to watch the Penguins power play, or see the Oilers just skating up and down the rink like mad. That is good hockey. Give me skilled hockey over today's junk anytime.

My example about basketball was just that. I'm not a big enough fan of basketball to tell you how many fights you see. However I am 100% sure that the teams don't carry a "fight" player on their roster that they only bring out to get in fights with the other team's "fight" player. That's a pretty big difference IMO.

And using the fact that hockey is a contact sport as an excuse is completely wrong. If they allowed fighting in football and gave each player a 5 yard penalty (thus cancelling itself out), imagine how stupid that would be to watch ... but somehow the NFL keeps it under control. The whole fighting thing makes the NHL look amateur-ish, and IMO makes the target demographic of the sport the drunken redneck.

[Fidatelo]

The whole fighting thing makes the NHL look amateur-ish, and IMO makes the target demographic of the sport the drunken redneck.

The NHL wishes they could get the drunken redneck, then they might get ratings similar to NASCAR. As it stands the NHL's target demographic is Canadians, which is sort of like drunken rednecks only we can't wear tank-tops most of the year. :D

[bhlloy]

Mota - do you think Gretzky would have been the same player and lasted as long as he did without Semenko and McSorley? Teams wouldn't go near him because they knew if they did they would have to pay for it. Same for Yzerman playing on the same line as Probert and to some extent Lemeiux having Caufield in Pittsburgh.

I want the 80's back as much as you, but you forget the 80's was the heyday of the enforcer/goon/whatever you want to call it. Fighting was a deterrant and it worked and stars and skill players knew they could play their game in peace. Then the league overexpanded and changed it's rules and you have the product you have today.

And now suddenly fighting is the cause of 80% of the leagues problems and if only we could get rid of it hockey would be the biggest sport in America and everyone would watch it. Bullshit. That's what Bettman wants you to think because he's made a complete pigs ear of the league and now 25 out of 30 teams are going bust.

[Solecismic]

One simple rule change: everyone wears college-style helmets, take them off voluntarily and it's a match penalty.

We had a situation where if Bertuzzi weren't stopped, there would have been a dead or permanently paralyzed player on the ice. How much further does it have to go?

Many people say fighting restores honor to the ice, that there would be cheap shots galore if not for the threat of some unskilled goon dropping his gloves and flattening your nose.

But if you're wearing a full face mask, and the EXISTING stick rules and obstruction rules are called properly, all that's left are clean, hard shots. Kinda like the one that got Moore into trouble in the first place.

[Travis]

Travis from my understanding they weren't allowed to do anything that game by their coach. 2 minute instigating and 10 minute misconduct goes to the instigator in that situation.

That instigator penality in my opinion has allowed hockey to turn into a sport of cheap shots. Back in the day, you thought twice about taking shots at stars because their was retribution to be paid. If you saw moores hit on naslund it wasn't clean either.

Hockey is a sport for a warriors mentality but Bettman has come in ruined it all.

My point is that (and I don't know who was on the ice at the time of the incident), if this was as bad as the Canuck players/coaches were making it out to be, there would have been an immediate response right after the hit. Instigator wouldn't have happened, as it would have been whomever was on the ice coming to the defense of their captain (was Bertuzzi on the ice at that point?). Odds are also that Moore would have been willing to dance with whoever came and challenged him (as he seemed willing to last night), again, waiving the instigator if it's done the 'right' way.

I've rooted against the Canucks since the days of Bertuzzi and Brashear, and now Crawford is firmly on that list as well. As much as I like seeing the things Naslund, Linden, Jovanovski and Ohlund can do, until those two are gone, I'll root against them every game (of course being in the same division as the Oiler's is a driving factor as well).

[Easy Mac]

I'm upset with all the ESPN hockey guys who are saying that this is only an NHL matter and that what happens in a fight should be immune to prosecution. How they equate what Bertuzzi did to a fight is beyond be. A fight is when 2 people try to hit eachother. When someone jumps the other person without a chance for retalation, its assault and being a pussy.

[druez]

Mota - do you think Gretzky would have been the same player and lasted as long as he did without Semenko and McSorley? Teams wouldn't go near him because they knew if they did they would have to pay for it. Same for Yzerman playing on the same line as Probert and to some extent Lemeiux having Caufield in Pittsburgh.

I want the 80's back as much as you, but you forget the 80's was the heyday of the enforcer/goon/whatever you want to call it. Fighting was a deterrant and it worked and stars and skill players knew they could play their game in peace. Then the league overexpanded and changed it's rules and you have the product you have today.

And now suddenly fighting is the cause of 80% of the leagues problems and if only we could get rid of it hockey would be the biggest sport in America and everyone would watch it. Bullshit. That's what Bettman wants you to think because he's made a complete pigs ear of the league and now 25 out of 30 teams are going bust.


I remember in the 80's when Tocket and Brown came out on the ice before a Bruins game during the playoffs, to stop the ritual of the puck being shot in the oposing teams goal before the game. Just out there in suspenders and there was a huge brawl before the game.

The neutrel zone trap and the clutching and grabbing are what slowed the game of hockey down.

BTW Hockey should of never expanded like they did. They had a solid market with teams in the north east and central part of America. Hockey needs to adopt a salary cap and institute some sort of revenue sharing if they want it to survive or markets like Canada simply won't be able to afford to field quality teams any longer. Its happening now and its a shame.

Heck, do you know how they advertise hocky down here in Houston? Some red neck guy saying, Guys with sticks that hit and every once in a while someone gets a whoopin.

They actually had a guaranteed fight night for the minor league team down here. If there wasn't a fight you would get the next game free. They got into trouble for it and had to take the offer back and make it guaranteed win night. This is the Houston Aeros btw.

Hockey is a great sport and the 70's and 80's are the best examples of the sport to date. They attempted to change the rules to make it play more like basketball but its not basketball. Betmen sucks and needs to go.

BTW. I find the NHL all star game boring. That is what hockey would be if they took out all the hitting and fighting. No thanks.

[Travis]

One simple rule change: everyone wears college-style helmets, take them off voluntarily and it's a match penalty.

We had a situation where if Bertuzzi weren't stopped, there would have been a dead or permanently paralyzed player on the ice. How much further does it have to go?

Many people say fighting restores honor to the ice, that there would be cheap shots galore if not for the threat of some unskilled goon dropping his gloves and flattening your nose.

But if you're wearing a full face mask, and the EXISTING stick rules and obstruction rules are called properly, all that's left are clean, hard shots. Kinda like the one that got Moore into trouble in the first place.

Funny, this would pretty much eliminate half the concussions (as long as they enforce the helmets being worn properly with a secured chin strap), eye injuries, broken noses, losing a player for multiple shifts while he's being sewn up, etc, etc.

Yet the 'jock code' says as soon as you hit the NHL, off comes the cage or visor. It still baffles me how many players use lame excuses for not wearing even a half visor considering how many possible injuries it would prevent and how many years it may add to their career.

As sad as it sounds, this should be one of the first rule changes the NHL should implement as it would give those players without enough of a backbone to just don the shield on their own an excuse as to why they have it on.

Safety in the workplace and the equipment to ensure it, funny how the NHL is light year's behind on this.

[bhlloy]

Travis - instigator would definitely have happened in this situation. It's exactly this situation that renders the penalty so useless. The Canucks players cannot "go" after Moore and drop the gloves or they are out of the game... so the situation festers and lo and behold someone cheap shots him.

Moore was only willing to drop the gloves the other night with another lightweight, because he knew Brookbank, Bertuzzi or May would have killed him.

Again, sorry to harp on about this but 10 years ago, Moore fights somebody because there is no instigator penalty. That lets the air out of the situation and you don't get the end product... which is another player resorting to a cheap shot because he feels there is no other way to avenge the hit on his captain.

[rkmsuf]

Many people argue that the cages encourage more violence...

[druez]

One simple rule change: everyone wears college-style helmets, take them off voluntarily and it's a match penalty.

We had a situation where if Bertuzzi weren't stopped, there would have been a dead or permanently paralyzed player on the ice. How much further does it have to go?

Many people say fighting restores honor to the ice, that there would be cheap shots galore if not for the threat of some unskilled goon dropping his gloves and flattening your nose.

But if you're wearing a full face mask, and the EXISTING stick rules and obstruction rules are called properly, all that's left are clean, hard shots. Kinda like the one that got Moore into trouble in the first place.

I thought moores shot wasn't clean?

[bhlloy]

Hockey is a fast moving sport all about vision and reactions, and most players don't wear the mask because they feel it hinders them in some way.

The only way you are going to get them to wear it is to make it mandatory, and the players union won't have it. It's easy to sit back and criticise, but if a player doesn't want to wear a mask because it feels it hinders his game who is anyone else to say he can't?

[sachmo71]

Blue et all,

I see your points about fighting...I really do. But these sort of things need to stop, and I'm at a loss for what to do. Outlawing fighting is definately a knee-jerk reaction, but I couldn't think of any other solution, and this whole situation has left me feeling sick.

[Fidatelo]

What people don't seem to get is that what seperates hockey from sports like basketball and football is that everyone on the ice is carrying a weapon: their stick. It is so simple to hack away at another player without getting caught that fighting is really the only deterrent: if some little weasel chops away like mad at a star when the ref isn't looking, then he gets pummelled mercilously by the star's goon. Most people don't like getting pummelled, so they don't chop away. When the NHL put in the instigator it made it harder to pummel the offender. Now the goon either fights the weasel's goon (umm, that deters the weasel how?) or else he gets kicked out of the game and after a couple instances suspended. So what is the way to respond? Oh ya, whack him right back with your stick.

Why do you think high sticking occurs multiple times per game? Why do you think that even though everyone wears helmets and many wear visors there are more eye injuries than ever in the NHL? Why do you think power forwards need to wear flack jackets and players equipment is like body armor now? These issues have all become epidemics over the last 10-15 years, and it doesn't surprise me that this coincides with the NHL's attempt to stop fighting.

[druez]

From what I understand, Bertuzzi was trying to get Moore to square off with him but Moore wanted no part of him and was skating away so Bertuzzi clocked him from behind. Moore should of just manned up and fought him.

[Castlerock]

I find the NHL all star game boring. That is what hockey would be if they took out all the hitting and fighting. No thanks.
I don't think there are many people making a case that hitting should be removed from the game. I love seeing good, hard, clean hits. But fighting has no place in sport.

[Solecismic]

All due respect to the NHLPA, but what happened to Moore can not happen again.

NASCAR requires modifications that improve the safety of cars, but slows them down a bit. Helmets with cages would do the same with hockey players.

At first, there might be more stupid penalties and more violence, but gradually, the idiots who can't keep their tempers and think any hard hit is an insult to the team's manhood would be weeded out of the league.

Obviously, the stuff we see every game - the hooking, slashing, cross-checking, the blatant obstructions - would have to be called every time. And that would be annoying at first.

But the end result, perhaps a half-season away, would be a cleaner, faster product with less severe injuries. A product people would feel comfortable taking their kids to (I might add that I saw my first NHL game in person at age 20 - my dad, who was taking me to football and baseball games from the time I was 3, thought hockey was a sport for thugs, and refused to go).

With the long labor recess expected to futz up the 2004-05 season, that would be the perfect time to make that kind of major change. I think in the long run, it would expand the viewership of a sport that's having a hard time finding fans right now.

[KWhit]

From what I understand, Bertuzzi was trying to get Moore to square off with him but Moore wanted no part of him and was skating away so Bertuzzi clocked him from behind. Moore should of just manned up and fought him.
This is ridiculous.

[tauter]

Lacrosse (edit) or outdoor. There are ALOT of fights in both of those events.

You are an idiot. That is flat out wrong.

[Ajaxab]

The issue of the work stoppage could punish Bertuzzi for his stupidity for even longer than the length of his impending suspension. If he's suspended for a year and the NHL has a work stoppage, his cheap shot just cost him 2 years of a very profitable career. Bertuzzi's lights may be on, but no one's home.

[druez]

You are an idiot. That is flat out wrong.


Umm I used to goto wings games all the time and there a ton of fights. They just fought with cages on.

[Easy Mac]

From what I understand, Bertuzzi was trying to get Moore to square off with him but Moore wanted no part of him and was skating away so Bertuzzi clocked him from behind. Moore should of just manned up and fought him.

I remember in high school there was a bitch and wouldn't have sex with me, so when she went home I took her into the woods and raped her. She should have just slutted up and fucked me.

[Travis]

I thought moores shot wasn't clean?

It was, and even Naslund stated this. The problem with it was that Naslund was in a comprosmised position (stretched out for the puck), and Moore clocked him, but made contact with pretty much just Naslund's head instead of shifting to catch him more in the body. The problem with the hit was more one of respect for the person taking the hit so-as to hit them, and hard, but in a safe way rather than rattling his head around.

And on the comment of Bertuzzi trying to get Moore to square off with him, even if that did happen, it does not in any way justify what Bertuzzi did. Lots of guys have dropped the gloves to see the other guy just cover up and accept a beating, hoping for the linesmen to jump in quickly, if nothing else, that's what Bertuzzi should have done.

The sad part is imaging what might have happened if none of Moore's team mates had been as close to him when this happened as they were. Bertuzzi never got off another punch after they hit the ice, or this could have been so much worse.

[tauter]

Umm I used to goto wings games all the time and there a ton of fights. They just fought with cages on.

Box is not outdoor, read my post moron.

[Solecismic]

The league looked at Moore's hit on Naslund and deemed it clean. Not sure if that's definitive, but it should have been the end of the controversy.

When the 'Nucks were in Colorado earlier, nothing happened to Moore. Seems unusually cowardly that Bertuzzi waited until the end of the game back in Vancouver before jumping him.

I used to cover minor league hockey, for The Seattle Times among other papers. One image I can't shake is a 15-year-old rookie for a team visiting Seattle was jumped and forced to fight an over-age (each team was allowed to have a couple of 18-year-old goons) player. He got the crap beat out of him, while 4,000 people stood and cheered as if this was some sort of wonderful entertainment.

The kid was only 15. And that's considered just part of the sport. If hockey really is interested in becoming mainstream (which it should be, it's a wonderful sport when you take away the violence), it can not allow that sort of thing. It can't treat the kids that way.

[druez]

This is ridiculous.

Have you ever played Hockey? Do you know how frustrating it is when little cheapshot artists slash at you, hold you hit your from behind, throw elbows etc. But, then when you goto confront them they run away and hide?

Moore had no problem fighting someone else earlier, but when it was someone he knew would put a beating on him he ran.

[bhlloy]

Castlerock - I don't see you crusading against boxing, ultimate fighting, wrestling, many martial arts that are all classified as sports where the actual aim is to beat the hell out of the other guy.

Jim - there have been many attempts to call every little instance of hooking, obstruction, holding etc... and the league has been behind every one. Each time I've heard "it will be tough at the beginning but once the players get used to it we'll have a better game" and every single time the experiment has been scrapped 20 games into the season because the product is unwatchable. Fans don't want to see players skating unmolested up and down the ice and 25 goals a game - that's what the All Star game and European hockey is all about and nobody watches them. People want to see a hard hitting, exciting game where nobody gets hurt and there aren't any cheap shots. I don't see why those 2 things have to be mutually exclusive.
The other issue I have with what you said was that a cage wouldn't have stopped the Moore incident, might have stopped the concussion but not the broken neck - you can't legislate for a cheap shot like that. It's not like it only happens in hockey - many more football players have suffered broken necks on helmet to helmet hits but nobody suggests all players should wear full face cages or extra neck padding because it would make positions like DB and WR much harder to play.

I think there is a simple way to stop what is happening - ban the protagonists for life. Won't happen with Bertuzzi because he is a poster boy and a good player but if you knew that kind of cheapshot would get you kicked out of the league you wouldn't do it. Way too simple a solution for it to actually happen though.

[sachmo71]

From what I understand, Bertuzzi was trying to get Moore to square off with him but Moore wanted no part of him and was skating away so Bertuzzi clocked him from behind. Moore should of just manned up and fought him.

By ignoring Bertuzzi, the chances were that he would put his team on the powerplay. Instead, Bertuzzi went into a rage and tried to kill him.

[druez]

Box is not outdoor, read my post moron.

Please refrain from the name calling. It isn't nessessary is it? I've seen outdoor lacrosse games where there were fights btw. They happen but more as a brawl or scuffle you would see in soccer, basketball, football, baseball etc.

Now Pro Box lacrosse is alot different and is playe like hockey.

The professional game is a little different than the lacrosse Hajek played in college. For one thing, it's played indoors, which really didn't require much of an adjustment for Hajek, who grew up playing box lacrosse indoors in Canada. For another thing, the players are allowed to fight, and Hajek, who is 5-foot-10 and weighs 185 pounds, has shown already that he won't be pushed around or intimidated. "I've been in a little scuffle," he allowed. As far as the fighting goes, he said, "I compare it a lot to hockey. I don't enjoy it, but I understand it." But Hajek is far from a hostile young fellow. He enjoys his sport and being with people who play it for a part-time living. "It's a real nice, tight community," he said, of people who are "real passionate" about lacrosse.

[druez]

By ignoring Bertuzzi, the chances were that he would put his team on the powerplay. Instead, Bertuzzi went into a rage and tried to kill him.

If it was a close game I would buy that, but the game was out of reach at that time.

[tauter]

Please refrain from the name calling. It isn't nessessary is it?

When you stop talking out of your ass I'll stop calling you names.

[druez]

Castlerock - I don't see you crusading against boxing, ultimate fighting, wrestling, many martial arts that are all classified as sports where the actual aim is to beat the hell out of the other guy.

Jim - there have been many attempts to call every little instance of hooking, obstruction, holding etc... and the league has been behind every one. Each time I've heard "it will be tough at the beginning but once the players get used to it we'll have a better game" and every single time the experiment has been scrapped 20 games into the season because the product is unwatchable. Fans don't want to see players skating unmolested up and down the ice and 25 goals a game - that's what the All Star game and European hockey is all about and nobody watches them. People want to see a hard hitting, exciting game where nobody gets hurt and there aren't any cheap shots. I don't see why those 2 things have to be mutually exclusive.
The other issue I have with what you said was that a cage wouldn't have stopped the Moore incident, might have stopped the concussion but not the broken neck - you can't legislate for a cheap shot like that. It's not like it only happens in hockey - many more football players have suffered broken necks on helmet to helmet hits but nobody suggests all players should wear full face cages or extra neck padding because it would make positions like DB and WR much harder to play.

I think there is a simple way to stop what is happening - ban the protagonists for life. Won't happen with Bertuzzi because he is a poster boy and a good player but if you knew that kind of cheapshot would get you kicked out of the league you wouldn't do it. Way too simple a solution for it to actually happen though.

If moore didn't break his neck we wouldn't be having this discussion. Yes, it sucks he broke his neck, but it was a freak occurance. You can't decide on how serious something is based on who gets hurt. What Bertuzzi did was wrong, but it should a suspension for a few games then back to business.

[druez]

When you stop talking out of your ass I'll stop calling you names.

Fights DO Happen in Outdoor lacrosse and there are quite a few pushing matches that take place also. Its just not part of the game as it is in hockey and box lacrosse.

So again please little one calm yourself down.

[Honolulu_Blue]

The Bertuzzi incident looks bad. I agree with Sach on that. You can't help but feel sick when you watch it. Not only because of what happened to Moore, but because it's watching the game you love turn ugly and become forever marred.

The fighting can be a bit of a spectacle. It does turn people off to the sport. But fighting is not the reason for the vast majority of injuries in the NHL. The only incident I know where a player was paralyzed was in COLLEGE hockey. That kid from Boston (or maybe Boston College) was wearing the full helmet and shield, was hit from behind, and that was it. Most of the injuries come from seemingly clean hits (e.g., Scott Stevens), errant use of the stick, slashing (e.g., deliberate use of the stick), pucks in the face, knee-to-knee hits, etc. I have known players to get concussed from figthing, Steve Smith broke his leg once (it was a freak thing, just the way he landed), broken noses, jaws, orbital bones, lost teeth, cuts, etc. Those are usually the worst of what happens in a fight.

Fighting doesn't really make the sport more dangerous. (In fact, as I and some others have raised, there are many who think fighting makes the sport safer in a way, because it cuts down on the stick work, cheap shots, etc. A self-policing mechanism). It does, at times, tarnish its image though.

[tauter]

Fights DO Happen in Outdoor lacrosse and there are quite a few pushing matches that take place also. Its just not part of the game as it is in hockey and box lacrosse.

So again please little one calm yourself down.

First of all, I'm not upset.

Secondly, I never said fights DON'T happen in outdoor lacrosse. I was saying that you don't know what you're talking about by saying they happen ALOT as you so eloquently put it.

[druez]

The Bertuzzi incident looks bad. I agree with Sach on that. You can't help but feel sick when you watch it. Not only because of what happened to Moore, but because it's watching the game you love turn ugly and become forever marred.

The fighting can be a bit of a spectacle. It does turn people off to the sport. But fighting is not the reason for the vast majority of injuries in the NHL. The only incident I know where a player was paralyzed was in COLLEGE hockey. That kid from Boston (or maybe Boston College) was wearing the full helmet and shield, was hit from behind, and that was it. Most of the injuries come from seemingly clean hits (e.g., Scott Stevens), errant use of the stick, slashing (e.g., deliberate use of the stick), pucks in the face, knee-to-knee hits, etc. I have known players to get concussed from figthing, Steve Smith broke his leg once (it was a freak thing, just the way he landed), broken noses, jaws, orbital bones, lost teeth, cuts, etc. Those are usually the worst of what happens in a fight.

Fighting doesn't really make the sport more dangerous. (In fact, as I and some others have raised, there are many who think fighting makes the sport safer in a way, because it cuts down on the stick work, cheap shots, etc. A self-policing mechanism). It does, at times, tarnish its image though.

Agreed, not to mention what bertuzzi did wasn't really what most would consider a fight.

[tauter]

and yes Quik, I know it's A LOT. :)

[Travis]

If moore didn't break his neck we wouldn't be having this discussion. Yes, it sucks he broke his neck, but it was a freak occurance. You can't decide on how serious something is based on who gets hurt. What Bertuzzi did was wrong, but it should a suspension for a few games then back to business.

I'm curious, would you still say a few game suspension had Moore ended up permanently paralyzed or dead (still hard to say what would have happened if Bertuzzi would have had time to get 2 or 3 more punches in after they hit the ice). Yes, he wasn't intending on breaking Moore's neck, but you can bet your last dollar he was intending to hurt the kid is some way, he didn't jump him like that as a gentle reminder that his hit on Naslund wasn't very nice.

This wasn't a rage problem, it was premeditated and something Bertuzzi had been working up to all game. If the suspension is anything under 20 games, I for one would be very surprised.

[druez]

First of all, I'm not upset.

Secondly, I never said fights DON'T happen in outdoor lacrosse. I was saying that you don't know what you're talking about by saying they happen ALOT as you so eloquently put it.

I've been to three outdoor lacroose games in my life. 1 of them had a fight, 1 had a guy wacking someone with a stick then they wrestled around a bit. The third had a big pushing and shoving match. That is what I based it on.

[rexallllsc]

To answer a lot of the people here quickly:

-Bertuzzi's hit was cheap as hell, but doesn't warrant criminal action. Are you going to file charge against everyone who wins a fight? What if Bertuzzi had faught Moore straight up, and Moore neck broke when they went to the ice? Would Bertuzzi be up on criminal charges?

I've seen a ton of cheapshots worse than Bertuzzi's, it just so happens that Moore hit the ice wrong. Tim Hunter comes to mind...Dale hunter comes to mind...Hell, Matt Johnson (I believe he's on the Wild now) ended Jeff Beukeboom's career hitting punching him squarely in the back of the head and knocking him out cold. Ended his career. 12 game suspension.

-Cages: Simply put, they suck.

-Visors: I never liked wearing one, and I know a lot of guys don't...but I think it's inevitable that the NHL will go to a mandatory visor league.

-the NHL: A joke compared to what it was in the 80's and early-90's...more a result of the traps, locks, and officials not calling the obstruction/holding that takes place every shift than anything.

The NHL is a sad joke of the sport that I got into when I was 6.

-To those that say this is turning kids off to the sport...well what sport did you think this is? This is a violent sport. This is a rough sport. I can tell you from first hand experience (I played for 15 years, and 1 season of Jr. A) that sometimes you just get caught up on the ice...and you always regret it after, but it's pretty insane when you're out there sometimes...

[cuervo72]

"little one"?

I think you should show him what a real lacrosse check is, T.

[cuervo72]

I've been to three outdoor lacroose games in my life. 1 of them had a fight, 1 had a guy wacking someone with a stick then they wrestled around a bit. The third had a big pushing and shoving match. That is what I based it on.

Three is one hell of a sample size.

[ISiddiqui]

A fight is when 2 people try to hit eachother. When someone jumps the other person without a chance for retalation, its assault and being a pussy.

Actually even in a fight with 2 people it is assault for both individuals.

[tauter]

I've been to three outdoor lacroose games in my life. 1 of them had a fight, 1 had a guy wacking someone with a stick then they wrestled around a bit. The third had a big pushing and shoving match. That is what I based it on.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! You are making claims of fact based on 3 actual events? Nice.

[tauter]

"little one"?

I think you should show him what a real lacrosse check is, T.

:)

[druez]

I'm curious, would you still say a few game suspension had Moore ended up permanently paralyzed or dead (still hard to say what would have happened if Bertuzzi would have had time to get 2 or 3 more punches in after they hit the ice). Yes, he wasn't intending on breaking Moore's neck, but you can bet your last dollar he was intending to hurt the kid is some way, he didn't jump him like that as a gentle reminder that his hit on Naslund wasn't very nice.

This wasn't a rage problem, it was premeditated and something Bertuzzi had been working up to all game. If the suspension is anything under 20 games, I for one would be very surprised.


I guess here is the point Travis. If Moore didn't get anything other then a swollen jaw or a busted nose / black eye etc. There wouldn't be this outcry. Only because of the seriousness of the freak accident are we even talking about this.

If it was a straight fight between two guys on the rink and one guy died even though they both dropped the gloves, it would still be a 5 minute major I would assume. So whatever the penality would be if Moore just broke a fingernail should be the same as it is for him breaking his neck.

If you want to say all cheapshots like that should be 20 games then fine go with that. But, to say this cheapshot is only 2 games this one is 10 games, this one is 2 years is not consistant.

I believe this is the same problem that Roenick brought up earlier in the season with inconsistant calls and suspension policies.

[rexallllsc]

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! You are making claims of fact based on 3 actual events? Nice.

FYI, I saw one of the craziest fights I've ever seen at an indoor lacrosse game...and I've probably seen over 1,000 live hockey games, and maybe 50 lacrosse games...it's a pretty rough sport.

[druez]

Three is one hell of a sample size.


You would assume that if You only goto 3 games of a sporting event and if it was that rare of an occurance, there wouldn't be this type of action at each one.

Btw if you can't tell 3 out of 3 is a 100%

[druez]

:)

I'll call your lacrosse check and raise you a hockey fight. :)

[MrIllini]

whacking someone with a stick and then wrestling around a bit? sounds like a regular evening subby trying to crawl into fritz' pussy

[tauter]

FYI, I saw one of the craziest fights I've ever seen at an indoor lacrosse game...and I've probably seen over 1,000 live hockey games, and maybe 50 lacrosse games...it's a pretty rough sport.

Indoor (Box) lacrosse is a lot different than outdoor. You don't have to tell me lacrosse is rough, I play and coach. :) All I was saying is that fights do not happen "ALOT" in the outdoor game. :) Now, maybe the professional outdoor game is different....

[tauter]

I'll call your lacrosse check and raise you a hockey fight. :)

You're going to facewash me, pull my jersey and then punch my helmet?

[MrIllini]

I'll call your lacrosse check and raise you a hockey fight. :)

this reminds me of the joke where the farmers are arguing over a duck and decide to kick each other in the balls to see who would get it

the first farmer nails the other's nuts squarely and then lets him keep the duck

[cuervo72]

You would assume that if You only goto 3 games of a sporting event and if it was that rare of an occurance, there wouldn't be this type of action at each one.

Btw if you can't tell 3 out of 3 is a 100%

So you're telling me if a Rich Kotite-coached team started the year 3-0, it would prove he's a Hall of Fame coach and you'd sign him to a 10 year contract?

[rkmsuf]

Wouldn't anyone?

[tauter]

I'll call your lacrosse check and raise you a hockey fight. :)

Don't make me get the feta-gang in here, or force Wig to expel you from the WigFL. :)

[Subby]

druez should argue about something he knows about...like football text sims.

Oh wait...

[rkmsuf]

druez should argue about something he knows about...like football text sims.

Oh wait...


dude, he's been to 3 lacrosse games...that counts for something...

[druez]

sigh, I made a statement there are alot of fights in Lacrosse in indoor and outdoor lacrosse. Well its been proven there are alot in indoor its part of the sport and outdoor is up for debate. It depends on what you deam as alot.

[druez]

druez should argue about something he knows about...like football text sims.

Oh wait...

Yep you know so much don't you. I read all your reviews and love them, wait you didn't write any.

[Maple Leafs]

The discussion about fighting in hockey is valid and worthwhile, but the connection to the Bertuzzi incident is pretty tenuous. Yes, he used his fist. That doesn't make it a fight, any more than a vicious highstick is a slap shot.

For whatever it's worth, I'm one of those strange people who does believe in a "code" in hockey. I realize some people find that idea unthinkable, but there it is. And according to the code, Moore did the right thing. He dropped his gloves earlier in the game. That should have been it. He's not obligated to fight every guy on the other team in a 9-2 game.

Bertuzzi broke the code, not Moore.

[Buzzbee]

Yep you know so much don't you. I read all your reviews and love them, wait you didn't write any.

So, you have "PROVEN" that fights happen "ALOT" because you have been to 3 games and a fight, some wrestling around, and some pushing occurred. (By the way, you are being made fun of because the proper terminology is a lot - two separate words.)

You have also "PROVEN" that Subby doesn't know much because he didn't write a game review. :rolleyes:

Face it, you made a statement and someone who is more knowledgeable than you on the subject called you on it. Admit you were wrong and move on. Also, based on your statement, writing game reviews instantly qualifies someone as knowing a lot. (See, I said "a lot" instead of "alot" to give you a good example)

{Edit: Hmmm. I was soooo silly. All that time in school wasted. All I had to do was write a game review. Stupid me. Well, off to play Asteroids so I can be smart.}

[tauter]

This thread is making my boring afternoon much better, oh wait, "ALOT" better.

[Fritz]

the grammar nazis are out in force today.

[cuervo72]

It appears a grammar flogging has been "deamed" necessary.

(don't forget "its", either)

[Fritz]

you are being a dick

[tauter]

you are being a dick
{Beavis voice}Are you threatening me?{/Beavis voice}

[cuervo72]

I'll accept that.

We need something else to do on Tuesdays....

(edit: because by Wednesday, we're bouncing off the walls)

[Ksyrup]

(don't forget "tits", either)
I rarely do...

[Fritz]

I rarely do, I wear a manbra

I see

[tauter]

(edit: because by Wednesday, we're bouncing off the walls)

Speaking of bouncing, where is NM with our hookers and blow?

[Subby]

Yep you know so much don't you. I read all your reviews and love them, wait you didn't write any.What's funny is I DID read your reviews :)

[druez]

This thread is making my boring afternoon much better, oh wait, "ALOT" better.


I did ALOT or A LOT or Alota research on the subject to see if I was talking out of my ass.

http://198.93.127.18/default.asp

Anyway, there are quite a few fights at the major league level. You only receive an ejection from the current game if you receive one at all. Based on the comments by the fans there are usually a couple of fights a week.

Go read and thanks and have a nice day. You figure a coach would know more about this stuff then me.

BTW its a no brainer that it would be illegal in NCAA rules, just like NCAA hockey.

[druez]

So, you have "PROVEN" that fights happen "ALOT" because you have been to 3 games and a fight, some wrestling around, and some pushing occurred. (By the way, you are being made fun of because the proper terminology is a lot - two separate words.)

You have also "PROVEN" that Subby doesn't know much because he didn't write a game review. :rolleyes:

Face it, you made a statement and someone who is more knowledgeable than you on the subject called you on it. Admit you were wrong and move on. Also, based on your statement, writing game reviews instantly qualifies someone as knowing a lot. (See, I said "a lot" instead of "alot" to give you a good example)

{Edit: Hmmm. I was soooo silly. All that time in school wasted. All I had to do was write a game review. Stupid me. Well, off to play Asteroids so I can be smart.}

Well it would writing game reviews does mean I'm reviewing the products and the other people are not. The fact I played every version he produced, I suppose would give me some credibility. The fact I'm a beta tester for various different games might give me some credibility. The fact that I work in a software development group for my real job might help also.

Its pretty easy to critizise when you aren't doing the reviews yourself. Not sure why you would have a problem with my review of FOF football, I gave it one of its highest ratings and I told everyone to go buy it. But whatever.

[Mota]

A lot of people seem to bring up the fact that the instigator rule prevents people from getting even.

If the referees called the game properly and punished the people who did the cheap shots, dirty hits, etc. then there wouldn't be a need to get even. Maybe that's what we should be looking at?

The reason the game has degraded to clutching, grabbing, dirty hits, etc. is because they're allowed to do it. It gives the low skill players that advantage over the skilled players, so if that's their way to make it in the NHL, of course they're going to do it.

[Buzzbee]

Well it would writing game reviews does mean I'm reviewing the products and the other people are not. The fact I played every version he produced, I suppose would give me some credibility. The fact I'm a beta tester for various different games might give me some credibility. The fact that I work in a software development group for my real job might help also.

You would think. However, that doesn't seem to be the case, does it?


Its pretty easy to critizise when you aren't doing the reviews yourself. Not sure why you would have a problem with my review of FOF football, I gave it one of its highest ratings and I told everyone to go buy it. But whatever.

I never criticized your review, and I don't have a problem with your review of FOF. You can put THAT card back in your deck.

I disagree that sound is something that is a desirable addition, but that is a matter of opinion, and a horse we've already beaten.

[sachmo71]

If it was a close game I would buy that, but the game was out of reach at that time.

Yes, you are right. That puts it in a different light for me. I didn't think about the score at the time.

[Buzzbee]

Question regarding the injury:

Does anyone know, or have reliable information about, exactly when Steve Moore's neck was broken? Was it a result of Bertuzzi hitting him in the head, or was it a result of hitting the ice?

[KWhit]

Only because of the seriousness of the freak accident are we even talking about this.
Freak accident?!

This was no accident.

[KWhit]

Question regarding the injury:

Does anyone know, or have reliable information about, exactly when Steve Moore's neck was broken? Was it a result of Bertuzzi hitting him in the head, or was it a result of hitting the ice?
He hit the ice because Bertuzzi hit him in the head. So the root cause is the cheap shot hit, no matter how you look at it.

That being said, I'm pretty sure there would be no way to tell when exactly it happened.

[Travis]

More than likely happened when he hit the ice, but in large part is probably due to the fact that Bertuzzi was riding him down and (while debateable) appears to be trying to drive Moore's head into the ice on the way.

[NoMyths]

Speaking of bouncing, where is NM with our hookers and blow?Sorry...got stuck in Polish customs with them, and the nice young lady soldier refused to take a kilo to "look the other way." Luckily a member of our entourage threw a solid lacrosse check her way and now I'm back where I began, shaking my head at the sorry lack of writing ability possessed by a 'published (online) game reviewer'.

[Sun Tzu]

Thread homicide anyone?

[Mota]

This thread jumped the shark.

[cuervo72]

It limboed the elephant too.

[Buddy Grant]

I'm done with fighting in the NHL. I used to think it had it's place, but if they outlaw all of this...make it illegal to punch a guy delibertly, at least, maybe this sort of thing will end.
Yes, yes, I'm tired of defending hockey violence.

[Karim]

Growing up with the sport, I completely understand the "code", right or wrong.

I remember in grade 6 we were playing ball hockey during recess on school grounds. A friend of mine made the mistake of slashing the class "jock" (if you can be considered a jock at 12 years old) who then proceeded to pummel him. After consoling my friend we decided to approach the teacher who was "supervising"; the teacher also happened to be a former NHL goalie. His response was not surprising: "That's hockey."

Having grown up with the Battle of Alberta during the glory years, I've watched the code in full effect, and some of those playoffs series were sensational. Violent, yes, but sensational nonetheless.

On the other hand the Canada Cups, World Cups and Olympics (with professionals) are also among the best games I've ever seen and had the added benefit of highlighting the game to NON-hockey fans. This is probably what the NHL should strive to emulate on a league-wide basis.

The answers aren't easy but with the impending CBA negotiations, now is the time to address them.

[Karim]

dola,

For those who have yet to seen the incident in question...

hxxp://members.shaw.ca/dmc/BertuzziSuckerPunch.wmv

[druez]

dola,

For those who have yet to seen the incident in question...

hxxp://members.shaw.ca/dmc/BertuzziSuckerPunch.wmv


Is there any video that shows them jawing before bertuzzi went after him.

[tucker342]

Actually he did have it coming, I guess last month he got in a cheap shot in a game. Of course that doesn't make what Bertuzzi did alright. He should be arrested for that shit

[Karim]

Top ten most violent hockey acts:
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/columns/top10/hockey_lowlights.html#10

Globe & Mail article on how it will be difficult to eliminate the "code":
http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20040310.wduha10/BNStory/Sports

[Glengoyne]

I think the old schoolers are gonna have to come to Jesus on this one. The Thuggery has got to go. NCAA and Olympic Hockey is a better product than the NHL, and the intolerance of fighting is the reason why. Yes the enforcers will lose their jobs, but guys who can play hockey will replace them.

My unfortunate fact of the day is:
Although the NHL should take a stand to stop the fighting, and MLB should stand up to the union regarding drug testing, neither of them will. Both leagues will suffer as a result.

[bhlloy]

NCAA and Olympic Hockey is a better product than the NHL, and the intolerance of fighting is the reason why.

Both of those statements are completely subjective to your opinion.

Lots of people don't think NCAA and Olympic Hockey are better products than the NHL, and of the people who do think it is a better product many would say it's because of the larger rink sizes and more attacking rules and mindset rather than the lack of fighting.

[ISiddiqui]

Btw, Bertuzzi got suspended for the rest of the season (including playoffs) and Vancouver was assessed a $250,000 fine.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Actually he did have it coming, I guess last month he got in a cheap shot in a game.He put a hit on Naslund that may or may not have been dirty. Vancouver took exception, but rather than do something about it the next time they played Colorado, in a close game in Colorado, they waited until they were getting blown out by the Avalanche in Vancouver.

While Moore may have had something coming to answer for the hit on Naslund, I think most of us would agree that it wasn't a sucker punch from Bertuzzi, and certainly not an outright blindside assault.

Also getting overlooked in the whole "eye for an eye" discussion is that Moore did get in a fight earlier in the game. Maybe the problem was that by all accounts, he won the fight. :rolleyes:

[Maple Leafs]

NCAA and Olympic Hockey is a better product than the NHL, and the intolerance of fighting is the reason why.Olympic hockey is better than the NHL because it features the very best players in the world.

I can't imagine how anyone could watch NCAA hockey and even compare it to the quality of the NHL game, but of course we all have the right to our opinion.

[sabotai]

Btw, Bertuzzi got suspended for the rest of the season (including playoffs) and Vancouver was assessed a $250,000 fine.

A good punishment, IMO.

[Hurst2112]

I think the old schoolers are gonna have to come to Jesus on this one. The Thuggery has got to go. NCAA and Olympic Hockey is a better product than the NHL, and the intolerance of fighting is the reason why. Yes the enforcers will lose their jobs, but guys who can play hockey will replace them.

My unfortunate fact of the day is:
Although the NHL should take a stand to stop the fighting, and MLB should stand up to the union regarding drug testing, neither of them will. Both leagues will suffer as a result.


The thuggery has left since the 80's.

The NHL should spend more time deal with malicious hits and head-hunting rather than get rid of fighting all together. Fighting is part of the game...period.

[Buddy Grant]

A good punishment, IMO.
I would like to see a tougher stance on premeditated attacks, especially if they are of the completely gutless variety employed by Bertuzzi in this incident. I don't think this punishment is enough, it's reduced based on the fact that Bertuzzi did not kill the man but that does not help prevent the next similar incident from resulting in a death. There is some consolation in the fact most people's opinions of Bertuzzi will change for the negative, and those that were not already convinced Marc Crawford was a total slimebag are certainly having more difficulty defending him.

[druez]

I would like to see a tougher stance on premeditated attacks, especially if they are of the completely gutless variety employed by Bertuzzi in this incident. I don't think this punishment is enough, it's reduced based on the fact that Bertuzzi did not kill the man but that does not help prevent the next similar incident from resulting in a death. There is some consolation in the fact most people's opinions of Bertuzzi will change for the negative, and those that were not already convinced Marc Crawford was a total slimebag are certainly having more difficulty defending him.


Bertuzzi tried to get Moore to fight him. So actually Moore was the gutless one. Granted Bertuzzi shouldn't of suckered punched him from behind, but Bertuzzi was more then willing to fight Moore straight up.

[Hurst2112]

I would like to see a tougher stance on premeditated attacks, especially if they are of the completely gutless variety employed by Bertuzzi in this incident. I don't think this punishment is enough, it's reduced based on the fact that Bertuzzi did not kill the man but that does not help prevent the next similar incident from resulting in a death. There is some consolation in the fact most people's opinions of Bertuzzi will change for the negative, and those that were not already convinced Marc Crawford was a total slimebag are certainly having more difficulty defending him.

I still like watching my video of him freaking out at scotty bowman during the 97 playoffs.

[sachmo71]

Fighting is part of the game...period.

It doesn't have to be.

[ISiddiqui]

Bertuzzi tried to get Moore to fight him. So actually Moore was the gutless one.

Moore already was in one fight with a Canuck in the game... does he have to fight every Canuck who feels he wants to be a macho man?

[Joe Canadian]

Bertuzzi tried to get Moore to fight him. So actually Moore was the gutless one. Granted Bertuzzi shouldn't of suckered punched him from behind, but Bertuzzi was more then willing to fight Moore straight up.

The 'code' factor has already been completed, Moore already faced off with someone else. There was nothing wrong with Moore's hit on Naslund, Nazy even admitted the hit was clean and perfectly acceptable... so we shouldn't even be talking about this. But obviously the Canucks felt someone took liberties with their star... and the 'code' came into play. Bert crossed the line, he should be punished AND forgiven, but he's the one who did something wrong NOT Moore.

[GrantDawg]

I'm in with the same crowd that says they'll never be a hockey fan as long as there is fighting (as a part of the game. All sports have idiots.) .

[sabotai]

I'm in the crowd that say they'll never be a fan of hockey if they take fighting out of the game. :)

[rexallllsc]

It doesn't have to be.

Hockey is a violent sport by nature, and when you are that competitive, moving that fast, and another guy is trying to take you out, sometimes you get caught up and need to fight...

It has to be. Most who have played the game would agree.

[GrantDawg]

Hockey is a violent sport by nature, and when you are that competitive, moving that fast, and another guy is trying to take you out, sometimes you get caught up and need to fight...

It has to be. Most who have played the game would agree.
That's right. So that is why regular fighting is a part of every level of hockey. (What? They don't fight as often in Olympic hockey? Well, they must not be as good then. They need rexallsc to come and show them how to play.).

[Joe Canadian]

It doesn't have to be.


Yes it does, and it's because of the stupid instigating rule that this kind of stuff happens. People become more and more careless with their play, and frustration boils over to the extremes because players can no longer police themselves.

Hockey is different than any other sport, it's MUCH faster and can't be left to the refs or league officials to police the game alone. It's not a matter of having 50 fights a game, it's the fact that allowing fights makes players more responsible for their actions... because of the fear factor.

The game has gone down hill ever since they institued the insigating rule to make the game more appealing to the US market. Now we have a league where obstruction is a huge problem, players use their sticks in careless ways, and frustrations boil over. Take the rule out and you WON'T see a huge increase in fighting, but the game will improve... and the skilled players will shine. Want proof, see Gretzky & Lemieux, and who those guys played with.

[ISiddiqui]

Want proof, see Gretzky & Lemieux, and who those guys played with.

Well Gretz wants to ban fighting in hockey, for what it's worth.

[Maple Leafs]

Well Gretz wants to ban fighting in hockey, for what it's worth.Does he? Unless he's radically changed his position recently, I don't think you have that right.

[Fidatelo]

I seem to recall Gretzky dropping the gloves 2 or 3 times himself. It wasn't pretty, but obviously he felt it was needed.

[Maple Leafs]

I'll say it again: the Bertuzzi sucker punch has nothing to do with fighting in hockey.

[ISiddiqui]

Does he? Unless he's radically changed his position recently, I don't think you have that right.

Read his autobiography. It's from back when he was a King. If he radically changed his position, then he'd be for fighting in the game.

I seem to recall Gretzky dropping the gloves 2 or 3 times himself. It wasn't pretty, but obviously he felt it was needed.

When in Rome...

[Joe Canadian]

Well Gretz wants to ban fighting in hockey, for what it's worth.

If thats true I hope the guy realizes he would never have been the player he was without the guy he played with that protected him.

[Hurst2112]

It doesn't have to be.

I believe that there does have to be fighting. It has been around the league even before any of us were born. I don't feel we should go back to the 70s and 80s but it's a part of the game, and has been for decades. This wasn't a fighting incident with Bertuzzi...it was malicious head hunting. If it was a fight, and moore got hurt, that would be something else...BUT, I haven't seen too many fights in the last 20 years that have ever done this much damage to a player.

Fights are safer that headhunting.

[ISiddiqui]

I'll say it again: the Bertuzzi sucker punch has nothing to do with fighting in hockey.

It has to do with the whole attitute that fighting brings to the game. A kind of legalized lawlessness, that's only a hop, skip, and a jump from a sucker punch.

[Joe Canadian]

I'll say it again: the Bertuzzi sucker punch has nothing to do with fighting in hockey.

Yeah, but it gives everyone the opportunity to argue it should be thrown out. You generally see this from people who have little to no exposure to the game, and who've never played it...

[Joe Canadian]

It has to do with the whole attitute that fighting brings to the game. A kind of legalized lawlessness, that's only a hop, skip, and a jump from a sucker punch.

And if you knew anything about the history of the game, and the role fighting actually plays in the game you'd understand that anti-fighting rules (instigating rule) has made things like the Bert Incident, obstruction, and careless stick use dramacticly go up.

[ISiddiqui]

Well you can also look on this thread to see people who say they aren't going to be fans of the NHL (and watch international or amateur) hockey until fighting is gone. Keep fighting won't do anything to the popularity of the sport in Canada, but will continue to marginalize hockey in the US, until it gets eclipsed by soccer and falls into 5th place.

[rexallllsc]

That's right. So that is why regular fighting is a part of every level of hockey. (What? They don't fight as often in Olympic hockey? Well, they must not be as good then. They need rexallsc to come and show them how to play.).


Yes, it's a part of almost ever level of hockey. The only ones that don't really fight are the lower divisions that don't have much contact (and don't allow checking).

As far as the Olympics, there are a few reasons. One, a lot of the teams are European, and those players are traditionally soft (but they love to use their sticks)...and since the teams can pick their best, they often pick the most skilled players, since there is no talent dilution like there is in the NHL (where you need grinders).

[rexallllsc]

Well you can also look on this thread to see people who say they aren't going to be fans of the NHL (and watch international or amateur) hockey until fighting is gone. Keep fighting won't do anything to the popularity of the sport in Canada, but will continue to marginalize hockey in the US, until it gets eclipsed by soccer and falls into 5th place.

That's fine with me. Hockey shouldn't change the game for ratings that it's not going to get anyways. Some people won't watch hockey because of fighting, some won't watch baseball because they find it boring. Some won't watch basketball because of the perceived lack of team play...not ever sport is for everyone.

[Maple Leafs]

It has to do with the whole attitute that fighting brings to the game. A kind of legalized lawlessness, that's only a hop, skip, and a jump from a sucker punch.I'd argue the opposite. Fighting brings a sense of accountability. Things like the instigator rule, face shields and (especially) referees who won't call the rulebook -- those bring the legalized lawlessness.

[Joe Canadian]

Well you can also look on this thread to see people who say they aren't going to be fans of the NHL (and watch international or amateur) hockey until fighting is gone. Keep fighting won't do anything to the popularity of the sport in Canada, but will continue to marginalize hockey in the US, until it gets eclipsed by soccer and falls into 5th place.

I disagree.

[rexallllsc]

Yeah, but it gives everyone the opportunity to argue it should be thrown out. You generally see this from people who have little to no exposure to the game, and who've never played it...

Yup! :)

[Hurst2112]

I like your last 2 comments Joe Canadian, but I am a bit confused as to what side of the fence you are sitting on.

It seems that you would prefer fighting to be left in rather that have the bert incident and other "non-hockey" acts on the ice continue or become more frequent.

Just checking.

[Joe Canadian]

I'd argue the opposite. Fighting brings a sense of accountability. Things like the instigator rule, face shields and (especially) referees who won't call the rulebook -- those bring the legalized lawlessness.

I agree with you on everything except the shield issue, if I was in the NHL I'd wear a shield.

[Mota]

Fighting is part of the game...period.

The last time I checked, fighting didn't have anything to do with the game. They don't give you points for "fights won". Fighting also doesn't happen during the play (it does, but it stops the play).

It's just one of those "accepted" side things.

[Joe Canadian]

I like your last 2 comments Joe Canadian, but I am a bit confused as to what side of the fence you are sitting on.

It seems that you would prefer fighting to be left in rather that have the bert incident and other "non-hockey" acts on the ice continue or become more frequent.

Just checking.

Yes. Taking the instigator rule out (which is an anti-fighting rule, basiclly) and you won't see a huge increase in fighting over the long haul. The Moore hit on Nazy could have been dealt with in that game, where someone could of squared off with Moore, fairly. Instead it boiled over and the frustrations grew over a number of weeks... then we see idiotic moves like what Bert did. The rule has also been the contributing factor, IMO, for the players being completly careless with their sticks... leading to serious eye injuries.

Fighting is part of the game, it's much more than the players being allowed to police themselves. It's an anti-dumbass measure :), so that people play the game thinking that there is consequences for their actions.

[ISiddiqui]

And if you knew anything about the history of the game, and the role fighting actually plays in the game you'd understand that anti-fighting rules (instigating rule) has made things like the Bert Incident, obstruction, and careless stick use dramacticly go up.

Don't patronize me. If you take out ALL fighting, you'd have a cleaner game. If fighting is so much a 'part of hockey', then why don't you see international leagues fall apart without it?

[rexallllsc]

Don't patronize me. If you take out ALL fighting, you'd have a cleaner game. If fighting is so much a 'part of hockey', then why don't you see international leagues fall apart without it?

You also see an insane amount of stickwork in international leagues.

[Joe Canadian]

Don't patronize me. If you take out ALL fighting, you'd have a cleaner game. If fighting is so much a 'part of hockey', then why don't you see international leagues fall apart without it?

European hockey, and hockey are two different animals. But again if you knew more about hockey you'd know that :p :D.

[Godzilla Blitz]

Olympic hockey is better than the NHL because it features the very best players in the world.

I can't imagine how anyone could watch NCAA hockey and even compare it to the quality of the NHL game, but of course we all have the right to our opinion.

Late to the discussion, but I would have to say that although I agree that the quality of the NHL player is a level above that of a the college player, I would much rather watch a college game than a pro game because I think college has a much more entertaining product.

The college game is more wide open. Fights and roughing delays don't slow the game down. There is the whole "college atmosphere" that brings the game to life. The quality of play is of course a level below the pro game but the structure of the game makes it so the game flows better. I can't stand the NHL regular season, but enjoy the college season. And while I like pro hockey playoffs, I love the college hockey tournament.

Part of it also has to do with becoming a father. Becoming a parent makes you so much more aware of how much violence and cruelty there is in our society--in games, in sports, in our speech. I wouldn't want to take my son to a pro hockey game for a long while because of the likelihood that a fight will break out. I would happily take him to a college game.

Regarding the hit...

(This is coming from someone who thinks the NHL should clean up their act regarding violence in the game). I just saw the punch for the first time. After reading this discussion, I have to admit that I was surprised at how "light" the hit appeared to be. Yes, it was a sucker punch from behind, but it almost seemed to me that Bertuzzi rode Moore's head into the ice more because Moore fell passively to the ground rather than an intentional wish by Bertuzzi to drive him down. I couldn't help thinking that this would be a non-story if Moore's neck had not broken. Obviously Bertuzzi must have really connected with the punch and the appearance of the violence doesn't diminish the cruelty of the action, but I have to admit I was surprised at how visually mundane the hit appeared to be.

I'm glad to see that Bertuzzi got a relatively severe suspension. Maybe this is a start. Hockey's a great game without the fights and extracurricular violence.

[Maple Leafs]

The last time I checked, fighting didn't have anything to do with the game. They don't give you points for "fights won". Fighting also doesn't happen during the play (it does, but it stops the play).Well, if you take out everything that you don't get points for, then there goes hitting, passing, backchecking... basically everything other than shooting. As far as the play stopping, that happens for every penalty.

There are good arguments against fighting in hockey, but I've never though that "it's not part of the game" was one of them.

[ISiddiqui]

European hockey, and hockey are two different animals.

But shouldn't be is what I'm saying. Especially with the influx of European/Russian stars.

[sachmo71]

I guess I have to point out that I've never played hockey. That apparently disqualifies my opinion, so I wanted to get that out there.

If the league wanted to, they could eliminate fighting. I know that they never will, but they could.

I just don't see why the accountibility has to be left up to the players. The officials should control that, and if they can't, then isn't that an inherant flaw in the game? I just don't see why there HAS to be fighting.

[Maple Leafs]

I just saw the punch for the first time. After reading this discussion, I have to admit that I was surprised at how "light" the hit appeared to be. Yes, it was a sucker punch from behind, but it almost seemed to me that Bertuzzi rode Moore's head into the ice more because Moore fell passively to the ground rather than an intentional wish by Bertuzzi to drive him down. I couldn't help thinking that this would be a non-story if Moore's neck had not broken. Obviously Bertuzzi must have really connected with the punch and the appearance of the violence doesn't diminish the cruelty of the action, but I have to admit I was surprised at how visually mundane the hit appeared to be.I had essentially the same first reaction to the hit. I still don't think Bertuzzi "drove Moore's head into the ice", and I'm frustrated that the media keeps portraying it that way. I guess it sells more papers, much like saying Bertuzzi is 60 lbs heavier than Moore (he's not) and towers over him (well, I guess if one inch is towering).

I can tell you that the punch was a big story in Canada before the news came out about Moore's neck (nobody knew he'd broken it until Tuesday). But you're right, no broken neck = no discussion of it on Regis and Kathy Lee.

[Joe Canadian]

I guess I have to point out that I've never played hockey. That apparently disqualifies my opinion, so I wanted to get that out there.

It's not that it disqualifies your opinion. But compare it to an 'outsider' who's never played or understand the minute details of football or baseball coming in trying to change those particular games.

[bhlloy]

The two sides are never going to agree on this - but it does appear the majority of people who are big hockey fans think fighting is part of the game and the majority who aren't use fighting as an excuse as to why they aren't.

Make of that what you will.

Oh and I'm in Europe and European hockey is unwatchable... and very dirty when it comes to stickwork and cheapshots. Definitely not a good argument to take fighting out of the game.

[Joe Canadian]

But shouldn't be is what I'm saying. Especially with the influx of European/Russian stars.

Ok then on thats we'll have to agree to disagree.

[rexallllsc]

But shouldn't be is what I'm saying. Especially with the influx of European/Russian stars.

Uhhhhh...ok. Let's get used a league with even more hooking, slashing, etc.

[rexallllsc]

Oh and I'm in Europe and European hockey is unwatchable... and very dirty when it comes to stickwork and cheapshots. Definitely not a good argument to take fighting out of the game.

Thank you!

[ISiddiqui]

Uhhhhh...ok. Let's get used a league with even more hooking, slashing, etc.

Like College Hockey?

[BishopMVP]

It isn't the fighting that is lowering ratings for the NHL. It is diluted talent, excessive interference that isn't called tightly and goalies that are too good and have too many pads on to allow for more scoring. Fighting helps police the game and probably brings in as many fairweather fans as it turns off.

[BishopMVP]

Like College Hockey?
How many college hockey games you been to lately? At the UMass games, there is more clutching/grabbing/hooking than any pro game. And there have still been 2 fights this year.

[Buddy Grant]

Bertuzzi tried to get Moore to fight him. So actually Moore was the gutless one. Granted Bertuzzi shouldn't of suckered punched him from behind, but Bertuzzi was more then willing to fight Moore straight up.
Don't piss on my head and tell me it's raining, it does not get any more gutless than sucker punching a guy like this - it was a pathetic indefensible act. I'm more a Canuck fan than a Avs fan so I'm not joining in the anti-Bertuzzi pile on for any homer rationale either, this event hurts all hockey fans.

[sachmo71]

Well, somthing has to be done, because this can't ever happen again. It's not like hockey can afford anymore bad publicity.

[BishopMVP]

It's not like hockey can afford anymore bad publicity.
Like a year with no NHL?

[sabotai]

It's not like hockey can afford anymore bad publicity.

Like the other three big sports are having an influx of good publicity? :D

[Buddy Grant]

Pretty good article here (hxxp://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20040310.wduha10/BNStory/Sports) calling for NHL seriously penalizing any blow to the head - including Moore's original hit on Naslund. I'm a Devils fan and I have to admit my past enjoyment of Scott Stevens checks are partially due to blood lust on my part, and when I stand back and think rationally (basically every time one of his checks resulted in injury) I am ashamed of that side of me. Many other NHL players aim for the head as well, trying to go for a concussion - it's so common that the EA NHL series tends to have players leaving the ice (going for the head) on many checks.

[ISiddiqui]

How many college hockey games you been to lately?

Just saw the Michigan/Mich State game. Better than any NHL game I've seen all year.

[Fidatelo]

I guess I have to point out that I've never played hockey. That apparently disqualifies my opinion, so I wanted to get that out there.

If the league wanted to, they could eliminate fighting. I know that they never will, but they could.

I just don't see why the accountibility has to be left up to the players. The officials should control that, and if they can't, then isn't that an inherant flaw in the game? I just don't see why there HAS to be fighting.

Let me respond to this with a personal story that somewhat relates to the Bertuzzi story (but on a way smaller scale).

I played a couple seasons in a very competitive floor hockey league. It sounds lame, but the talent level on the better teams (not mine, but the good ones) was very high. Anyways, being a relatively small league (8-10 teams I think), we played the same teams up to 4 or 5 times over a couple months. Naturally, every team has their a-hole, and familiarity breeds contempt, and well, near the end of the season play got pretty rough. The league, however, had a no fighting policy. Getting in a fight cost the player $25 and risked suspension or ejection from the league.

So anyways, in a close game near the end of the season the other teams a-hole elbows me in the face. No call. I look to the ref and complained, he claimed he didn't see it. Same shift, not even near the play, and DIRECTLY in front of the ref the guy elbows me HARD in the face again. No call. Now I'm pissed, but I can't drop 'em or else I'm done and paying money. So in a rage, I chase him into the corner (he's heading to the puck) and cross check him from behind into the boards. He went head-first, but was luckily uninjured. I got a 2 minute minor. I also didn't get elbowed in the face again.

After the game, I was completely horrified by what I'd done. We don't wear helmets, and I'd just hammered a guy from behind into the boards! But at the time, it seemed like the only way to let this guy know that I wasn't going to tolerate his crap. The ref certainly wasn't going to stop him.

Now, had fighting been merely a 5 minute major, I likely would have dropped them and tried to handle it that way. I don't know if I would have won the fight or not, but at least I would have sent my message in a way that at worst causes a bloody nose or a black eye.

Removing fighting from hockey will never solve incidents like what Bertuzzi did. And I will stand by my opinion that I think it would only cause them, or stick infractions or whatever, to increase.

[Maple Leafs]

Well, somthing has to be done, because this can't ever happen again. It's not like hockey can afford anymore bad publicity.Agreed. I just don't think banning fighting would fix anything. As I said elsewhere, a sucker punch has as much to do with fighting as a high stick has to do with a slapshot. Banning fighting might be good PR right now, but it doesn't address the problem.

And I'll go even further... as much as hockey desperately needs to avoid bad PR, I don't think you can prevent this sort of thing from happening. From time to time, in any sport, someone will go too far. When they do, by all means come down on them like a ton of bricks. But no matter how hard you hit the offenders, someone else will come along in a year or two and do it again. I don't think it's fair to judge the success or failure of this suspension based on whether anything similar ever happens again. The idea of "sending a message" only goes so far.

[sachmo71]

Like a year with no NHL?

Already factored in, Bishop! :D

[rexallllsc]

It isn't the fighting that is lowering ratings for the NHL. is diluted talent, excessive interference that isn't called tightly and goalies that are too good and have too many pads on to allow for more scoring. hting helps police the game and probably brings in as many fairweather fans as it turns off.

Yes! Bring back the 80s/early-90s!!!

[sabotai]

Just saw the Michigan/Mich State game. Better than any NHL game I've seen all year.

Good for you. You prefer college, I prefer NHL. Why can't we leave it at that? You have the game you like, I have the game I like. Why must the game I like be changed to be more like the game you like?

There are people who prefer college football to pro football. I don't hear anyone screaming to change the NFL rules to be more like college. Same thing here. People have their own, personal flavors. Let everyone have their flavor.

[rexallllsc]

Well, somthing has to be done, because this can't ever happen again. It's not like hockey can afford anymore bad publicity.

It's happened before, it'll happen again.Matt Johnson ended Jeff Beukeboom's career (he still has headaches, too) with a punch as bad, if not worse. Tony Granato (coach of the Avalanche) chopped Neil Wilkinson with his stick, tomahawk style (two hands)...the game survived.

It will happen again, and hockey will go on.

[Buzzbee]

I guess I have to point out that I've never played hockey. That apparently disqualifies my opinion, so I wanted to get that out there.

If the league wanted to, they could eliminate fighting. I know that they never will, but they could.

I just don't see why the accountibility has to be left up to the players. The officials should control that, and if they can't, then isn't that an inherant flaw in the game? I just don't see why there HAS to be fighting.

I'd like for Joe Canadian and/or rexallllll or others to discuss this a little further. I'm a CASUAL fan (watch a few games a year and maybe the Stanley Cup if I know it is on) but am curious why the PLAYERS are the ones who have to have the responsibility of delivering consequences? I can't think of another sport (I'm sure you guys will come up with tons) where the players and not the officials or the league are responsible for doling out punishment. Why does the threat of getting beat up have to be the deterrent?

[Maple Leafs]

I can't think of another sport (I'm sure you guys will come up with tons) where the players and not the officials or the league are responsible for doling out punishment.In baseball, if a guy hits a towering home run and the next batter takes the first pitch in the ribs, what happens? The other pitcher knows he has to respond in the next inning.

If Terrell Owens scores a touchdown and spikes the ball in Roy Williams face, what's going to happen the next time TO goes over the middle? Williams is going to be looking to light him up.

This sort of thing goes on in sports all the time. It may be more pronounced in hockey, but it's certainly not unique.

[Buzzbee]

In baseball, if a guy hits a towering home run and the next batter takes the first pitch in the ribs, what happens? The other pitcher knows he has to respond in the next inning.

If Terrell Owens scores a touchdown and spikes the ball in Roy Williams face, what's going to happen the next time TO goes over the middle? Williams is going to be looking to light him up.

This sort of thing goes on in sports all the time. It may be more pronounced in hockey, but it's certainly not unique.

Yes, and if the pitcher hits the batter intentionally, the pitcher can get tossed from the game.

And if Roy Williams hits him late, or leads with his helmet, Williams will draw a penalty for his team.

The fear of retribution from the other team doesn't keep them from hitting a homerun, or spiking the ball. According to some, it is the fear of retribution that keeps the game clean. What I'd like to know is why that retribution can't be an official doling out a punishment such as putting them in the penalty box or kicking them out of the game. Why does getting beat up by the other teams goon have to be the consequence for a dirty hit?

[sachmo71]

In baseball, if a guy hits a towering home run and the next batter takes the first pitch in the ribs, what happens? The other pitcher knows he has to respond in the next inning.

If Terrell Owens scores a touchdown and spikes the ball in Roy Williams face, what's going to happen the next time TO goes over the middle? Williams is going to be looking to light him up.

This sort of thing goes on in sports all the time. It may be more pronounced in hockey, but it's certainly not unique.

EDIT: heh...see Bee's comments!

[rexallllsc]

I'd like for Joe Canadian and/or rexallllll or others to discuss this a little further. I'm a CASUAL fan (watch a few games a year and maybe the Stanley Cup if I know it is on) but am curious why the PLAYERS are the ones who have to have the responsibility of delivering consequences? I can't think of another sport (I'm sure you guys will come up with tons) where the players and not the officials or the league are responsible for doling out punishment. Why does the threat of getting beat up have to be the deterrent?

I have a two-part answer:

1. Since you're up against a guy numerous times in a game, it's really easy to get after him. It's a really, really intense sport. You're right up on someone all game, and I've been in the same position as Bertuzzi before. I didn't hurt the guy as bad, but I've cheap-shotted a few people, and been the victim of it as well...I don't condone Bertuzzi's actions, but I can understand what happened. Sometimes you just lose it on the ice...it's an intense sport.

As far as the officials, I think one of the keys to getting back to an exciting, open-ice brand of hockey (see 80's and early-90's) is the officials. They must call the interference away from the puck. The clutching,grabbing, etc. is out of control.

[rexallllsc]

Yes, but if the ump knows you are trying to hit the batter, he can toss you out of the game. And if Roy Williams goes helmet first into TO's chest, he's going to sit for a few games.
In hockey, retribution is not only expected, it's condoned.

I think it's a lot different.

Really? Bertuzzi didn't get suspended? Legal hits are condoned. Fighting is condoned (take two to Tango!). Illegal hits and cheap shots are not.

[Buzzbee]

I have a two-part answer:

1. Since you're up against a guy numerous times in a game, it's really easy to get after him. It's a really, really intense sport. You're right up on someone all game, and I've been in the same position as Bertuzzi before. I didn't hurt the guy as bad, but I've cheap-shotted a few people, and been the victim of it as well...I don't condone Bertuzzi's actions, but I can understand what happened. Sometimes you just lose it on the ice...it's an intense sport.

As far as the officials, I think one of the keys to getting back to an exciting, open-ice brand of hockey (see 80's and early-90's) is the officials. They must call the interference away from the puck. The clutching,grabbing, etc. is out of control.

Valid points, but it still doesn't answer the question. Yes, you go up against a guy repeatedly over the course of the game. That happens in basketball and football as well. However, it doesn't explain why players need to be the enforcers rather than the officials.

[rexallllsc]

Valid points, but it still doesn't answer the question. Yes, you go up against a guy repeatedly over the course of the game. That happens in basketball and football as well. However, it doesn't explain why players need to be the enforcers rather than the officials.

Because the officials don't/won't call everything. Because you're sending a message.

Honestly...it just feels natural when you're out on the ice...

[Buzzbee]

Because the officials don't/won't call everything. Because you're sending a message.

Honestly...it just feels natural when you're out on the ice...

So a possible resolution would be to have officials call cheap shots, hooking, high sticking, slashing, etc. and dole out an appropriate penalty. Wouldn't that send a message? I'm not sure what, if any penalty Moore got, but if he had been put in the penalty box, or thrown out of the game, would Bertuzzi have felt as much need to give Moore some payback? I wouldn't think so.

Oh and just because it feels natural is hardly justification for allowing revenge. :p

[sabotai]

Hockey is very fast. When you watch it on TV, it doesn't convey how fast the game really is. When I went to a game a few years ago, it was the first time I sat close (row 11, I think it was). I've sat in the upper section before at a hockey game, but when you're down there...those guys move FAST. And there's 10 of them.

There are only 3 officials. The game is simply too fast for 3 people to see everything. I would bet that they don't even see, collectively, more than half of what happens.

You can't put more officials out there...they'd get in the way. They already do! Putting more out there will clutter up the ice and the game will become "let's see who can accidently hit the official with the puck the most" contest.

The only way to keep players from not taking cheap shots when the official isn't looking is the fear that you will get your clock cleaned.

At the before-mentioned game where I sat in the 11th row, there was a player on the opposing team who kept hacking at LeClair. He was doing it all game long. Never got a call from the official. In most cases, that'd be the end. He would just keep hacking because no one could come up and stop him. Except in this case, he hacked at Primeau halfway through the 3rd...and got his ass sufficiantly kicked. Had he not hacked at Primeau, Primeau wouldn't have been able to do anything...no Flyer would have. So you have this guy hacking away everytime the officials are not looking.

You need this because in hockey, the officials just can not see everything, and you can't add more. The game is just too fast.

[sabotai]

dola,

And what Bertuzzi did had nothing to do with using fighting as a payback. The payback fight had already happened. It was just a cheap shot, plain and simple. And if it didn't cause major injuries, I would expect to see a Colorado player throw down with Bertuzzi in that game or a later rematch as retaliation.

[Buzzbee]

Hockey is very fast. When you watch it on TV, it doesn't convey how fast the game really is. When I went to a game a few years ago, it was the first time I sat close (row 11, I think it was). I've sat in the upper section before at a hockey game, but when you're down there...those guys move FAST. And there's 10 of them.

There are only 3 officials. The game is simply too fast for 3 people to see everything. I would bet that they don't even see, collectively, more than half of what happens.

You can't put more officials out there...they'd get in the way. They already do! Putting more out there will clutter up the ice and the game will become "let's see who can accidently hit the official with the puck the most" contest.

The only way to keep players from not taking cheap shots when the official isn't looking is the fear that you will get your clock cleaned.

At the before-mentioned game where I sat in the 11th row, there was a player on the opposing team who kept hacking at LeClair. He was doing it all game long. Never got a call from the official. In most cases, that'd be the end. He would just keep hacking because no one could come up and stop him. Except in this case, he hacked at Primeau halfway through the 3rd...and got his ass sufficiantly kicked. Had he not hacked at Primeau, Primeau wouldn't have been able to do anything...no Flyer would have. So you have this guy hacking away everytime the officials are not looking.

You need this because in hockey, the officials just can not see everything, and you can't add more. The game is just too fast.

Yes, I realize that adding more officials on the ice isn't really a good solution. Would it be possible to add off-ice officials? Perhaps one on each end of the rink, specifically looking at action away from the puck?

I'm not saying this is the way it should be, but just tossing it out as a possibility.

So far, this response seems to be the best explanation offered as to why fighting needs to be in the game.

[rexallllsc]

So a possible resolution would be to have officials call cheap shots, hooking, high sticking, slashing, etc. and dole out an appropriate penalty. Wouldn't that send a message? I'm not sure what, if any penalty Moore got, but if he had been put in the penalty box, or thrown out of the game, would Bertuzzi have felt as much need to give Moore some payback? I wouldn't think so.

Oh and just because it feels natural is hardly justification for allowing revenge. :p

The officials usually do call cheap shots. It would be nice if they called everything else...

As far as Bertuzzi, I don't think anyone is really defending his actions.

As far as what "feels natural"...I was referring to fighting someone on the ice...I wouldn't call what Bertuzzi did a "fight"...

[DeToxRox]

as someone who actually plays hockey.. lets bring up some points

how many NHL fights have people been hurt? I am talking clean, one on one fights. nothing cheap about them. a few cuts, thats it. never have i seen a guy (besides steve kariya, and he shouldn't be fighting as it is) get really hurt in a fight.

what do fights accomplish? they motivate your team for one. if you're playing with no heart, what better to pick up the squad then with a fight. i play, i know. if you don't play then DO NOT tell me otherwise.

if you have a guy get ko'ed, whos a star player, clean or not. you fight. you have one guy fight and tell them you're not taking giving in and thats it.

Fighting is in the NHL for a reason, but excessive fighting is another thing.

Fact of the matter is, fighting isn't even that common in hockey. Well, as much as you people who don't watch it would believe.

If you see one game a year and theres a fight in it, you're not qualified to really share an opinion that its' ruining the game.

I just don't like all the naysayers who really don't know what they're talking about because they don't pay much attention to the game as it is.

[DeToxRox]

and on bertuzzi. he got what he deserved. that isn't fighting. that's assault.

[druez]

The 'code' factor has already been completed, Moore already faced off with someone else. There was nothing wrong with Moore's hit on Naslund, Nazy even admitted the hit was clean and perfectly acceptable... so we shouldn't even be talking about this. But obviously the Canucks felt someone took liberties with their star... and the 'code' came into play. Bert crossed the line, he should be punished AND forgiven, but he's the one who did something wrong NOT Moore.


Actually Moore is one of the goonish types of players. He fought a much smaller guy in his first bout. But, when someone who was known as a tough guy wanted to fight him he wanted know part of it. Thats called being a wuss.

[druez]

That's right. So that is why regular fighting is a part of every level of hockey. (What? They don't fight as often in Olympic hockey? Well, they must not be as good then. They need rexallsc to come and show them how to play.).


Many olympians now, play in the NHL

[klayman]

how many NHL fights have people been hurt? I am talking clean, one on one fights. nothing cheap about them. a few cuts, thats it. never have i seen a guy (besides steve kariya, and he shouldn't be fighting as it is) get really hurt in a fight.

Ask Nick Kypreos what can happen. I once saw Dave Brown destroy Stu Grimson, shattering his cheek bone among other things. Jarome Iginla took almost a year to rediscover his scoring game after breaking his hand in a fight. Players get hurt all the time. It's lunacy to think otherwise and it cannot seriously be used as a reason to have fighting included in the game.

[druez]

Guys, there is a sport called "BOXING" if you take fighting out of hockey because its violent, then you should make boxing illegal, karate illegal, Ultimate Fighting Illegal etc....

Here is the thing, You aren't going to make tradional hockey fans happy by taking fighting out of the sport. If anything you will loose hockey fans. Most of you paying lip service to the fact you would watch hockey if there was no fighting are full of crap. You just spout that nonsense off because you want to bash hockey.

There isn't even an average of 1 fight per game in hockey. So if they goto fight just close your eyes like a chick at a horror movie.

[DeToxRox]

Imagine playing 82 games a year. You get annoyed, you get antsy. Would you rather guys not fight and just beat the hell out of each other with sticks? I am upset, lets bash this guy in the skull with a piece of wood.

The results of injuries w/o fighting could be much, much worse.

[rexallllsc]

Ask Nick Kypreos what can happen. I once saw Dave Brown destroy Stu Grimson, shattering his cheek bone among other things. Jarome Iginla took almost a year to rediscover his scoring game after breaking his hand in a fight. Players get hurt all the time. It's lunacy to think otherwise and it cannot seriously be used as a reason to have fighting included in the game.

Ask Nick Kypreos what he would be doing if there wasn't fighting in the NHL...because he wouldn't be in the league. Same goes for Stu Grimson...

[Glengoyne]

Fighting is part of the game...period.
Nope. People say it is, but it is clearly not the case. Both Collegiate and Olympic hockey exist without it. I mean if it is part of the game show me where it is mentioned in the rules, other than the penalty section.


I am not a big time hockey fan, but I really do enjoy playoff hockey. Fighting only detracts from an otherwise very entertaining sport. I am also reluctant to bring my daughter to local hockey(semi-pro) games because of the extraneous violence inherant to that level of play.

Throwing a punch is not part of any sport that doesn't take place in a ring.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Both Collegiate and Olympic hockey exist without it.
And relatively few people in the U.S. give a flying #%@% about either.

One is a primarily regional, not national, activity.
The other is an event that only generates significant interest from a nationalist perspective.

College hockey and pro hockey are two different sports, plain & simple AFAIC.

[bhlloy]

OK then... fighting is a big part of the North American game. You think Euro style hockey is better, I think it sucks. Can we not agree to differ?

If something has to be in the rulebook to be part of the game, why is nailing a reciever in football when a pass is over his head applauded as such a good play? Why is a brush back in baseball (which sometimes leads to worse injuries than you see in hockey fights) applauded as a necessary way to get one over on a batter? Neither of those things are explicitly in the rulebook and potentially lead to very serious injuries.

The comment about punching people only belonging in a ring IMHO is hypocritical to say the least - either you are against violence as a sport or you aren't

[Maple Leafs]

Yes, and if the pitcher hits the batter intentionally, the pitcher can get tossed from the game.

And if Roy Williams hits him late, or leads with his helmet, Williams will draw a penalty for his team.
And if a hockey player sucker punches another guy, he can be suspended for the season, cost his team a chance at a Stanley Cup, and be fined a half million dollars.

The lesson: actions have consequences. In all sports.

[Glengoyne]

....
If something has to be in the rulebook to be part of the game, why is nailing a reciever in football when a pass is over his head applauded as such a good play? Why is a brush back in baseball (which sometimes leads to worse injuries than you see in hockey fights) applauded as a necessary way to get one over on a batter? Neither of those things are explicitly in the rulebook and potentially lead to very serious injuries.

The comment about punching people only belonging in a ring IMHO is hypocritical to say the least - either you are against violence as a sport or you aren't
Nailing a receiver when the ball is thrown over his head is a good play when the receiver has a play on the ball. Meaning he touches the ball. Meaning the hit is a good play because the catch is prevented. There are how many rules about bean balls in baseball? The league has implemented them because it has an interest to protect the players.

Also that hypocritical comment is a joke right? Cause I never said I was against violence in sports. I love violence in football and hockey for that matter. My position is that fighting shouldn't be tolerated in any sport that doesn't take place in a ring.

[klayman]

Ask Nick Kypreos what he would be doing if there wasn't fighting in the NHL...because he wouldn't be in the league. Same goes for Stu Grimson...
And is that another argument for including fighting?

I'm on your side, in that I don't think fighting should be banned from the sport, mainly cause I am fearful of the stickwork and cheapshots that would increase. But when arguments for keeping fighting in the game include "People don't get hurt" and "It gives Grimson a roster spot", I start leaning to the other side.

[ISiddiqui]

Why must the game I like be changed to be more like the game you like?

'Cause I'd like the NHL to survive. I enjoy rooting for my team, and I'd like to see them play a beautiful style of game (though it may be detrimental for my team). I'd like to see the game prosper in the US and not fade away. Hell, the reason my team still exists is because they won a Stanley Cup when there was talk of moving them. Teams in the Southern US aren't doing so well, mostly because of the reputation hockey has for 'anything goes'.

[Maple Leafs]

There are how many rules about bean balls in baseball? The league has implemented them because it has an interest to protect the players.But they still happen. All the time. Should we make every hit batter an automatic 20 game suspension? Or do you accept that it happens, and let the punishment fit the crime?

The NHL has rules against fighting. There are automatic majors, roughing minors, instigator penalties, automatic game misconducts in certain cases, automatic suspensions under certain circumstances. Fighting isn't allowed in hockey any more than clipping is allowed in football. Yes, the penalties could be more severe, but let's not pretend that there aren't any rules about fighting.

[druez]

Dude, no offense but the game doesn't do well in the South because you weren't exposed to it growing up. Its not part of the southern culture.

For hockey to survive they need a salary cap period. Hockey thrives in the North East and Central parts of the US. It does well in Canada. The only problem with Canada is their dollar and taxes. Teams can't afford to keep good players. Salary Cap and Revenue Sharing = Hockey's success. I would also advise the NHL to drop about 2 to 4 teams.

The south, especially here in Texas is all about anything goes. I mean the damn rodeo is the biggest event of the year. I mean guys promote the sport of hockey on the radio by some redneck going "they carry sticks and every once and while someone gets a whoppen."

Most of the people here I talk to just don't understand the game, my friends that I did get to watch some playoff games were like wow this is great.

[ISiddiqui]

Dude, no offense but the game doesn't do well in the South because you weren't exposed to it growing up. Its not part of the southern culture.

I don't really think that is it. If a game needs to be a part of a region's 'culture' then it'll never survive in the Southern US (which isn't just 'The South', but also the 'Southwest'). Hell, I'm from Jersey and we weren't really exposed to it too much growing up, but it does fairly well there.

[Maple Leafs]

Teams in the Southern US aren't doing so well, mostly because of the reputation hockey has for 'anything goes'.See, I just don't buy this. No doubt the NHL is failing in the US, especially in the southern US. But I think the list of problems is a long one. Primarily the low-scoring, clutchy, just plain boring style. The lack of a decent TV contract, the fact that the sport just doesn't work well on TV, the fact that so many players have unpronouncable names and barely speak english, the general lack of history... let's face it, you could eliminate fighting tomorrow, and TV ratings in the US probably won't budge at all. We can argue right and wrong until we fall over, but from a practical marketing point of view, fighting isn't the issue.

Besides, NASCAR, football and pro wrestling have big followings in the US, especially down south. Tell me again how violence can't sell there?

[sabotai]

'Cause I'd like the NHL to survive. I enjoy rooting for my team, and I'd like to see them play a beautiful style of game (though it may be detrimental for my team). I'd like to see the game prosper in the US and not fade away. Hell, the reason my team still exists is because they won a Stanley Cup when there was talk of moving them. Teams in the Southern US aren't doing so well, mostly because of the reputation hockey has for 'anything goes'.

No, teams in the Southern US aren't doing well because 1) There is no ice hockey in the south. It hardly ever snows down there so I doubt kids are growing up dreaming of being great ice hockey players and 2) There is no history to the teams there.

If hockey has a reputation for "anythign goes", I've yet to heard it. And anyone spreading that around is a total moron who obviously have never seen a pro hockey game.

What makes you so sure that if they changed the game to be more liek college, that would make the league more popular? How many people out there who say they would watch hockey if it weren't for the fighting do you think actually mean it?

If college hockey is so much more appelaing to pro hockey, why doesn't it get shown on TV more? Why doesn't it get better than NHL ratings when it is on?

[sabotai]

And FWIW, I grew up in Jersey and was exposed to hockey a lot.

[druez]

I grew up in Jersey too long time flyer fan here.

[druez]

I don't really think that is it. If a game needs to be a part of a region's 'culture' then it'll never survive in the Southern US (which isn't just 'The South', but also the 'Southwest'). Hell, I'm from Jersey and we weren't really exposed to it too much growing up, but it does fairly well there.


Holy crap, how could you not be exposed to it. South Jersey is one of the only places that have street hockey leagues. The flyers are such a part of Philly's identity its amazing.

In face its probably Eagles, Flyers, Phillies and 76ers in terms of fan popularity. But all 4 sports do well philly is a sports town.

[ISiddiqui]

What makes you so sure that if they changed the game to be more liek college, that would make the league more popular? How many people out there who say they would watch hockey if it weren't for the fighting do you think actually mean it?

A lot, IMO. Plenty of people have told me they like the game, but all the fighting is something they really don't want their kids exposed to... and they'd like to go to games as a family.

If college hockey is so much more appelaing to pro hockey, why doesn't it get shown on TV more? Why doesn't it get better than NHL ratings when it is on?

Because it is a college sport played in a very limited geographic area. Who am I gonna root for? My alma mater (Rutgers) has a team, but aren't really that great. I mean is someone from Duke going to have anyone he can really root for? College sports have fans from the people who went there.

[ISiddiqui]

Holy crap, how could you not be exposed to it. South Jersey is one of the only places that have street hockey leagues. The flyers are such a part of Philly's identity its amazing.

On the shore, I never saw a street hockey league. Soccer was really, really, really big in my area.

And the hockey fans in the area are divided between the Rangers, Flyers and Devils. The Devs have most fans down where I'm from.

[druez]

[QUOTE=ISiddiqui]A lot, IMO. Plenty of people have told me they like the game, but all the fighting is something they really don't want their kids exposed to... and they'd like to go to games as a family.

I don't buy that. I mean do these people go see a football game? Football is just as violent if not more so.

[ISiddiqui]

I don't buy that. I mean do these people go see a football game? Football is just as violent if not more so.

Yes, but it is the flow of the game. The guys are being hit, so they don't gain another yard. Fighting in hockey is a side show. At best it is a deterrant... don't hit my guy so hard. It doesn't serve any other purpose. And the cheering and hype on it smacks of bloodlust.

Hits in hockey aren't problematic to them either... because it is to prevent the player from scoring or recieving a pass which would put him in a good position. Fighting is apart from that.

[druez]

On the shore, I never saw a street hockey league. Soccer was really, really, really big in my area.

And the hockey fans in the area are divided between the Rangers, Flyers and Devils. The Devs have most fans down where I'm from.

Ice Hockey was huge in the shore towns. Bricktown used to host a league that drew people from all over. The collesium is where the flyers practice in voorhees.

Ocean City, Sea Isle City and Brigantine all had street hockey leagues btw. You must be from up north to central Jersey.

But hockey is huge up there. The rangers, islanders and devils are all from the same 100 mile radius. Thats 3 teams.

Flyers are only 1 and half hours from the devils stadium.

[ISiddiqui]

No, I was from Toms River... and never heard of the Brick league. Like I said, soccer was huge and so was baseball (League League sucess and all that). Never heard of all this hockey hubbub... well except when the Devs won the cup and Dowd was from Brick. That's about it.

[druez]

Yes, but it is the flow of the game. The guys are being hit, so they don't gain another yard. Fighting in hockey is a side show. At best it is a deterrant... don't hit my guy so hard. It doesn't serve any other purpose. And the cheering and hype on it smacks of bloodlust.

Hits in hockey aren't problematic to them either... because it is to prevent the player from scoring or recieving a pass which would put him in a good position. Fighting is apart from that.

What is the average fights per game I wonder. Probably like 1 out of every 3 games "Maybe?" if not less there is a fight.

[ISiddiqui]

What is the average fights per game I wonder. Probably like 1 out of every 3 games "Maybe?" if not less there is a fight.

It's still there. It can still happen at any game. That ain't the case for football, where it is banned and severely punished, so it is extremely rare to see a fight.

[sabotai]

Parent's don't want their kids to see people fight, but it's ok to let them see people getting checked or blocked from the blind side? Ok to see them get repeatedly knocked on their ass? It's ok for kids to see that..but heaven forbid they actually see a fight.

No, I don't think most of those parents would be taking their kids to a hockey game either way. Especially after they see all of the cheap shot tactics that will be used if you ban fighting from hockey. Can't have people fight 1 on 1, but perfectly fine for someone to take their stick and hack at someone's knees when the ref isn't looking...

That ain't the case for football, where it is banned and severely punished, so it is extremely rare to see a fight

Ever been in the stands at a football game? They'll see a fight or two at a football game, but it probably won't be on the field. :D

[klayman]

What is the average fights per game I wonder.
Stats from www.hockeyfights.com (http://www.hockeyfights.com/):

<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=2 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=statsheader>Regular Season Stats</TD><TD class=statsheader>2001-02</TD><TD class=statsheader>2002-03</TD><TD class=statsheader>2003-04</TD><TD class=statsheader>Projected
2003-04</TD></TR><TR><TD class=stats>Games</TD><TD class=stats>1230</TD><TD class=stats>1230</TD><TD class=stats>1043</TD><TD class=stats>1230</TD></TR><TR><TD class=stats>Fights*</TD><TD class=stats>803</TD><TD class=stats>668</TD><TD class=stats>705</TD><TD class=stats>831</TD></TR><TR><TD class=stats>Fights Per Game</TD><TD class=stats>0.65</TD><TD class=stats>0.54</TD><TD class=stats>0.68</TD><TD class=stats>0.68</TD></TR><TR><TD class=stats>Games With Fights</TD><TD class=stats>519</TD><TD class=stats>464</TD><TD class=stats>448</TD><TD class=stats>528</TD></TR><TR><TD class=stats>Percentage of Games with Fights</TD><TD class=stats>42.20%</TD><TD class=stats>37.72%</TD><TD class=stats>42.95%</TD><TD class=stats>42.95%</TD></TR><TR><TD class=stats>Games With More Than One Fight</TD><TD class=stats>172</TD><TD class=stats>139</TD><TD class=stats>155</TD><TD class=stats>183</TD></TR><TR><TD class=stats>Number of players who fought**</TD><TD class=stats>348</TD><TD class=stats>321</TD><TD class=stats>328</TD><TD class=stats>-</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


* A fight is counted when at least one player involved receives a fighting major.

** This is the number of players who have been involved in a fight during the course of the listed season, and does not always exactly match the number of players who have received a fighting major.

[druez]

It's still there. It can still happen at any game. That ain't the case for football, where it is banned and severely punished, so it is extremely rare to see a fight.

Its not that punished, worst thing that happens is you get kicked out of the game.

[druez]

Good stuff man. So 4 out of 10 games about....


Stats from www.hockeyfights.com (http://www.hockeyfights.com/):

<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=2 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=statsheader>Regular Season Stats</TD><TD class=statsheader>2001-02</TD><TD class=statsheader>2002-03</TD><TD class=statsheader>2003-04</TD><TD class=statsheader>Projected
2003-04</TD></TR><TR><TD class=stats>Games</TD><TD class=stats>1230</TD><TD class=stats>1230</TD><TD class=stats>1043</TD><TD class=stats>1230</TD></TR><TR><TD class=stats>Fights*</TD><TD class=stats>803</TD><TD class=stats>668</TD><TD class=stats>705</TD><TD class=stats>831</TD></TR><TR><TD class=stats>Fights Per Game</TD><TD class=stats>0.65</TD><TD class=stats>0.54</TD><TD class=stats>0.68</TD><TD class=stats>0.68</TD></TR><TR><TD class=stats>Games With Fights</TD><TD class=stats>519</TD><TD class=stats>464</TD><TD class=stats>448</TD><TD class=stats>528</TD></TR><TR><TD class=stats>Percentage of Games with Fights</TD><TD class=stats>42.20%</TD><TD class=stats>37.72%</TD><TD class=stats>42.95%</TD><TD class=stats>42.95%</TD></TR><TR><TD class=stats>Games With More Than One Fight</TD><TD class=stats>172</TD><TD class=stats>139</TD><TD class=stats>155</TD><TD class=stats>183</TD></TR><TR><TD class=stats>Number of players who fought**</TD><TD class=stats>348</TD><TD class=stats>321</TD><TD class=stats>328</TD><TD class=stats>-</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


* A fight is counted when at least one player involved receives a fighting ** This is the number of players who have been involved in a fight during the course of the listed season, and does not always exactly match the number of players who have received a fighting major.
major.

[ISiddiqui]

Parent's don't want their kids to see people fight, but it's ok to let them see people getting checked or blocked from the blind side? Ok to see them get repeatedly knocked on their ass? It's ok for kids to see that..but heaven forbid they actually see a fight.

Well yes... checked or blocked from the 'blind side' is within the flow of the game. Fighting is a seperate act of pugilism, which has nothing to do with the flow of the game. Take it to the boxing ring.

Its not that punished, worst thing that happens is you get kicked out of the game.

And another game or so. Kicked out of a football game with a 16 game season is far greater a punishment than leaving the ice for 5 minutes of a 82 game season.

major.

Indeed... In almost half of all hockey games there is a fight.

[sabotai]

Well yes... checked or blocked from the 'blind side' is within the flow of the game. Fighting is a seperate act of pugilism, which has nothing to do with the flow of the game.

That makes no sense whatsoever. If kids can understand the reasons for checking, they can understand the reasons for fighting. Unless, of course, these parents are total idiots (which wouldn't surprise me)

Just because something isn't involved "in the flow o fthe game" doesn't mean it should be taken out. That's just nonsense.