Corey Dillon traded to....

[Samdari]

The Patsies for an "undisclosed" draft pick.

Won't it be disclosed when the player is actually picked, or at least ends up playing for the Ben Gals?

[tucker342]

WOW. What a pick up for the Pats.

[Suicane75]

IF he isn't a locker room problem this is a hell of a deal for New England.

[WSUCougar]

Wow, that one blind-slided me.

*scurries off to adjust draft board*

[Samdari]

*scurries off to adjust draft board*

Yah, and I posted mine, as well as many theories about Steven Jackson's draft status being inflated due to the competition for him.

[spleen1015]

I read this and think...

Repeat.

[rkmsuf]

2nd round pick

[SegRat]

Patriots | Dillon Acquired Via Trade - from www.KFFL.com
Mon, 19 Apr 2004 13:25:55 -0700

Bengals.com's Geoff Hobson reports the New England Patriots have acquired RB Corey Dillon from the Cincinnati Bengals for a second-round draft choice.

[Eaglesfan27]

IF he isn't a locker room problem this is a hell of a deal for New England.

Unless that "undisclosed" draft pick is high round. I think anything above a 3rd round pick and they definitely overpaid for Dillon, secondary to age and attitude concerns.

[korme]

I wish things had worked out, I just don't think Rudi is ready for 250-300 carries a season.

[cthomer5000]

2nd round pick
yikes.. overpaid I think. But I guess they can afford to with the extra draft picks.

[RainRaven]

I guess you can use a second round pick in worse ways then getting a proven NFL running back. Though it does surprise me that the Patriots would pull the trigger on this deal with Dillion's lack of character being an issue for most teams.

[judicial clerk]

This makes sense for the Pats. Now, instead of picking a running back in the first round, they are free to use the pick on the Miami police officer who ran down Ty Law.

[WSUCougar]

And that's a very low 2nd rounder.

[RendeR]

YAHOOOOOO!!!!!


la la the monkey's dead, we finally got that loser OFF the squad!

[Franklinnoble]

This makes sense for the Pats. Now, instead of picking a running back in the first round, they are free to use the pick on the Miami police officer who ran down Ty Law.
http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[rkmsuf]

yikes.. overpaid I think. But I guess they can afford to with the extra draft picks.

That's the key. They wanted to unload some of those picks. I'm guessing they've met with Dillion and are satisfied. Who knows...maybe playing for a winner helps the guy. Tough read but until otherwise I'd go with Bill and Pioli.

Maybe they go up and get the Miami safety now...

[cthomer5000]

this at least frees up the Pats to take "best available athletes" in the first round. No glaring needs.

[WSUCougar]

Have they signed a FA corner? I'd look there, or LB maybe.

[Cringer]

Wow, that one blind-slided me.

*scurries off to adjust draft board*


blind-sided indeed, never heard the Pats wanted him......sneaky lil buggers :eek:

[SirFozzie]

The Pats just countered the Dolphins moves ;)

The AFC East is turning into the AL East ;)

[RendeR]

they've still got 2 firsts a second and a third on day one of the draft, how the hell did they stockpile things?

[rkmsuf]

Guess that answers the Jackson question at least for NE...

[JAG]

Very surprised about that. I guess the Patriots like others aren't very enamored with the running backs of this draft class.

[Samdari]

Have they signed a FA corner? I'd look there, or LB maybe.

The theory with them and DBs have them making the long rumored trade to #6 with Detroit, and taking Sean Taylor. The 'new' corner comes from moving Eugene Wilson (drafted as a CB, started at safety for them last year) back to CB.

[rkmsuf]

CB might be the position they want to draft.

[cthomer5000]

blind-sided indeed, never heard the Pats wanted him......sneaky lil buggers :eek:
Very true. Every time I ever heard the name it appeared to be pure speculation with no real basis (unlike Dallas or Oakland - where it's always been rumoured they were interested "for the right price.")

A deal to Oakland would have been a huge victory for Kodos' jerk-magnet theory as well. So i'm sad to see that won't occur.

[cthomer5000]

they've still got 2 firsts a second and a third on day one of the draft, how the hell did they stockpile things?
they're very smart.

They traded a 1st last year to the Ravens (who took Kyle Boller) for a 2nd last year and a 1st this year. Can't beat that at all.

[Franklinnoble]

A deal to Oakland would have been a huge victory for Kodos' jerk-magnet theory as well. So i'm sad to see that won't occur.
You don't think the recent Ty Law incident had a magnetic effect?

[BigJohn&TheLions]

Guess that about kills the Pats/Lions trade talk...

[rkmsuf]

You don't think the recent Ty Law incident had a magnetic effect?

He's only pretending to be a jerk...big difference.

[rkmsuf]

Guess that about kills the Pats/Lions trade talk...

They are reported dead but this move has nothing to do with it. Taylor is the guy if they move up.

[cthomer5000]

They are reported dead but this move has nothing to do with it. Taylor is the guy if they move up.
I just don't see the Pats making that move... doesn't seem to be worth it.

[Samdari]

I just don't see the Pats making that move... doesn't seem to be worth it.

Why? Belicheck has been quoted calling Taylor the best player in the draft. The #6 is actually considered more valuable than the 21 & 32. If they can get Detroit to take just those two picks, you do this in a heartbeat.

[JeeberD]

This is good news for the Cowboys efforts in drafting a QB on Saturday... :)

[rkmsuf]

I just don't see the Pats making that move... doesn't seem to be worth it.

Probably not...they just don't do that. If anything they may go down and trade for next year's draft if who they want is not on the horizon in the mid teens.

Dillion gets a lot of bad pub and is 30 but when I look at the career stats something just says he has gas in the tank. He's caught more balls than I thought and on bad teams was pretty productive outside of his little vacation last year. I'd have to say 1,200 and 8 TDs is a worst case scenario if he stays healthy...

[MacroGuru]

The Bengals now have five picks in the first three rounds, including two second-rounders and two third-rounders. They have nine picks in the first four rounds, including nine in the top 117.

Looks like the Bengals can reload decently from the draft as well.

[cthomer5000]

This is good news for the Cowboys efforts in drafting a QB on Saturday... :)
I assume that was a Freudian slip? (Of course, it shouldn't be.)

[WSUCougar]

Looks like the Bengals can reload decently from the draft as well.Never seen those words in the same sentence. My head hurts.

[RendeR]

Its all up to Carson now, lewis has set the table. if Palmer plays at or better than kitna did last season we make the playoffs, if he lights up the league like all Bengal Fans HOPE he will, we win 13+ games and have a shot at the Bowl. The pieces are there.

[albionmoonlight]

if . . . we [will] win 13+ games and have a shot at the Bowl. The pieces are there.
No fair using up all the best weed :(

[rkmsuf]

Its all up to Carson now, lewis has set the table. if Palmer plays at or better than kitna did last season we make the playoffs, if he lights up the league like all Bengal Fans HOPE he will, we win 13+ games and have a shot at the Bowl. The pieces are there.

Calling your home team QB by his first name just feels weird man.

[cthomer5000]

Its all up to Carson now, lewis has set the table. if Palmer plays at or better than kitna did last season we make the playoffs, if he lights up the league like all Bengal Fans HOPE he will, we win 13+ games and have a shot at the Bowl. The pieces are there.
I think the playoffs are a pretty lofty goal for this season. I think it's more likely they'll be around .500 again before making their move in 2005. Unless they run, run, run it's going to be tough for a first-year starter to lead his team to the playoffs.

[Castlerock]

Wow. The Patriots now have a running back. It's been a long time.

I am a little suprised that the Patriots went after him given his "character" issues. The Bengals are happy to be rid of him and maybe a change of scenery will do him good. I gotta admit I have a smile on my face. We'll see it changes to a frown.

[Franklinnoble]

No fair using up all the best weed :(
http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[sachmo71]

Wow. Too bad the Cowboys weren't there.

[RendeR]

No fair using up all the best weed :(


:D :eek: :p ;) :cool:

[Sublime]

I think the change of scenery for Dillon i think will be good. The Pats haven't had a back like this since Curtis Martin and they still have plenty of picks to upgrade S (move Wilson back to CB), a big WR, and maybe start to rejuvenate their LB corps.

[BishopMVP]

Probably not...they just don't do that. If anything they may go down and trade for next year's draft if who they want is not on the horizon in the mid teens.Belichick/Pioli trade up/down as many times as they want. We'll probably either go up to #6 and pick Taylor or end up with like DJ Williams at #21 and then another good player.

[Glengoyne]

Yah, and I posted mine, as well as many theories about Steven Jackson's draft status being inflated due to the competition for him.
I saw Steven Jackson play early in the year last year, and thought to myself "Maurice who?".

Where do you think he will go/should go?

[BishopMVP]

I think the change of scenery for Dillon i think will be good. The Pats haven't had a back like this since Curtis MartinRobert Edwards for 1 year (damn sand football.) I agree that WR or S both make sense at or around #32.

No fair using up all the best weed :(All the weed in the world wouldn't mess you up that much. He must be dropping acid or something.

[judicial clerk]

Isn't it odd that Carson Palmer and David Klingler have never been seen together in the same place at the same time?

[RendeR]

I think the playoffs are a pretty lofty goal for this season. I think it's more likely they'll be around .500 again before making their move in 2005. Unless they run, run, run it's going to be tough for a first-year starter to lead his team to the playoffs.


Honestly, I think the only thing between the Bengals and a solid playoff run is the fact that we have one seriously shit schedule.

New England
Miami
buffalo
New York

Dallas
Philly
Washington
new York

extra games with Denver and Tennessee

and our standard 6 in division games, makes this one of the toughest in the league this season. Here is my reasoning for the playoff run.

If Carson plays at the level Kitna did last year:

We split with baltimore, and sweep both Pitt and Cleveland (pittsburgh and cleveland are both really rebuilding right now)

thats 5 wins, I say we take both New York games, and probably Buffalo and Washington. Thats 9 wins and probably the division at that point.

Those other games are projected losses at that level of play.

If Carson does the improbable, but dreampt of, and lights it up this season *prayers welcome*

We lose one to Baltimore, New England, and Philadelphia.


I'm expecting them to pound the ball, and take more shots deep than they did last year. Granted any number of things could go wrong, and if palmer doesn't perform up to Kitna's level of last season, god knows it could get ugly, but for the first time in a long time I honestly expect a playoff game.

[General Mike]

I saw Steven Jackson play early in the year last year, and thought to myself "Maurice who?".

Where do you think he will go/should go?

Detroit trades down to 11 or 13 and takes him there.

[Sublime]

Robert Edwards for 1 year (damn sand football.) I agree that WR or S both make sense at or around #32.

All the weed in the world wouldn't mess you up that much. He must be dropping acid or something.

I totally forgot about Edwards, and I loved him! They did stop that stupid sand football game right? I actually remembering watching him score a TD this past season for Miami i think.

[RendeR]

Isn't it odd that Carson Palmer and David Klingler have never been seen together in the same place at the same time?



Klingler isn't even comparible to Palmer. Palmer has been the classiest Rookie QB this town has seen since Boomer came on board. klingler was a huge gamble right from the beginning, granted that the team at the time gave him absolutely nothing to work with.

[MacroGuru]

With the WR depth this draft, I see the Bengals picking one or two up in the first 3 rounds, as well as beefing up their OL and Defense.

This draft is going to be kind to them.

Their schedule as Render posted earlier will kill them, I see them as Wild Card and losing, nothing else better. Sorry, Carson is decent, just not enough yet to take them to the Super Bowl quite yet.

[Samdari]

I saw Steven Jackson play early in the year last year, and thought to myself "Maurice who?".

Where do you think he will go/should go?

Don't know if it will be Detroit as General Mike, but I think he's now got the right general area - assuming someone trades up with the Jets/Bills.

If nobody trades, he could last till Denver at 17, but I think there is an outside shot of the Lions taking him at 6.

[jeff061]

I think Dillon just can't stand playing for a loser, i'm hoping he'll do Ok.

As a Patriots fan I'm psyched, been a long time since we had a back that could run for 100 yards on a weekly basis. Its almost a foreign concept.

[cthomer5000]

Honestly, I think the only thing between the Bengals and a solid playoff run is the fact that we have one seriously shit schedule.

New England
Miami
buffalo
New York

Dallas
Philly
Washington
new York

extra games with Denver and Tennessee

and our standard 6 in division games, makes this one of the toughest in the league this season. Here is my reasoning for the playoff run.

If Carson plays at the level Kitna did last year:

We split with baltimore, and sweep both Pitt and Cleveland (pittsburgh and cleveland are both really rebuilding right now)

thats 5 wins, I say we take both New York games, and probably Buffalo and Washington. Thats 9 wins and probably the division at that point.

Those other games are projected losses at that level of play.

If Carson does the improbable, but dreampt of, and lights it up this season *prayers welcome*

We lose one to Baltimore, New England, and Philadelphia.


I'm expecting them to pound the ball, and take more shots deep than they did last year. Granted any number of things could go wrong, and if palmer doesn't perform up to Kitna's level of last season, god knows it could get ugly, but for the first time in a long time I honestly expect a playoff game.
You must be the most optimistic fan ever. I think a more realistc scenario is:

Go 3-3 in the division (probably swept by Baltimore, and probably sweep 1 of the other 2)
Go 2-2 against the AFC East (the Jets and Bills are pretty bad, and even the Dolphins are beatable)
Go 2-2 agains the NFC East (probably beating the Cowboys and Giants)
that leaves you at 7-7 with games against Denver and Tennessee. Probably 2 losses.

High estimate: 9-7
low estimate: 7-9

I have the exact same predictions for the Jets too - who I think will finish 8-8.

[korme]

I think Dillon just can't stand playing for a loser, i'm hoping he'll do Ok.

As a Patriots fan I'm psyched, been a long time since we had a back that could run for 100 yards on a weekly basis. Its almost a foreign concept.
But that isn't Dillon at all, he is not consistent. He's going to give you 35, 62, 27, then give you 241. http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[sterlingice]

This makes sense for the Pats. Now, instead of picking a running back in the first round, they are free to use the pick on the Miami police officer who ran down Ty Law.
If I had a quote of the day, that would get it :D

SI

[Balldog]

As a Patriots fan I love this trade, even though Dillon's attitude sucked at times it may have been a result from losing 13 games every year.

[FrogMan]

But that isn't Dillon at all, he is not consistent. He's going to give you 35, 62, 27, then give you 241. http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif
Can't be worse than what we had last year: 35, 62, 27, then BOOM, 83, both running backs combined, of course :D

Didn't expect this at all, I'm happy about it though.

How's Dillon as a pass receiver?

FM

[korme]

Good not great hands, catches a decent amount of balls. He's no Larry Centers.

[FrogMan]

there's no two Larry Centers :)

Thanks for the info.

FM

[korme]

Was gonna say something along the lines of "He's no Larry Centers, but then again who is? :)" but I was rushed off the comp for a moment. Cincinnati will certainly miss his level of play.

[pennywisesb]

Man, when i heard this i was pissed, i was really hoping the raiders could swing a deal for him since garner decided to go back to his bum chum gruden in TB....

[Desnudo]

The Bengals now have five picks in the first three rounds, including two second-rounders and two third-rounders. They have nine picks in the first four rounds, including nine in the top 117.

Looks like the Bengals can reload decently from the draft as well.

Reload from what?

[cthomer5000]

Reload from what?
Yeah, I think the Bengals are loading.

[Bad-example]

Nice to see the Dillon finally gets to live his lifelong dream...being part of an NFL team.

[Rich1033]

I like the trade, but I think the Pats would be wise to pick up Tatum Bell if he is available in the 3rd or 4th round. He would be a good change of pace from Dillion and could pan out to eventually be a good starter.

[Suicane75]

No fair using up all the best weed :(

That made me laugh out loud like a little girl.

[cthomer5000]

I like the trade, but I think the Pats would be wise to pick up Tatum Bell if he is available in the 3rd or 4th round. He would be a good change of pace from Dillion and could pan out to eventually be a good starter.
I also think the Bengals should (and will) draft an RB in the 3rd or 4th round.

[Butter]

Go 3-3 in the division (probably swept by Baltimore, and probably sweep 1 of the other 2)

High estimate: 9-7
low estimate: 7-9

Anything less than 5-1 in the division will be a disappointment. Baltimore's QB situation is extremely fluid... mostly because A. Wright and Boller both suck.

Palmer will have some growing pains, but the in-division games won't be where the Bengals come apart.

The most realistic scenario sees the Bengals in the playoff chase, but in the upper echelon of the AFC in 2005. That is all assuming that Palmer is not Klingler III. (Akili Smith being Klingler II, of course). If Palmer turns out to be crap, then it'll be 5-11 again for a while.

[rkmsuf]

Anything less than 5-1 in the division will be a disappointment. Baltimore's QB situation is extremely fluid... mostly because A. Wright and Boller both suck.

Palmer will have some growing pains, but the in-division games won't be where the Bengals come apart.

The most realistic scenario sees the Bengals in the playoff chase, but in the upper echelon of the AFC in 2005. That is all assuming that Palmer is not Klingler III. (Akili Smith being Klingler II, of course). If Palmer turns out to be crap, then it'll be 5-11 again for a while.

I can't believe Bengal fans just chalk up all these division wins. Seems to me it just doesn't work like that. No matter what you think of the Ravens QBs, they are no worse than what you'll get out of the rookie Palmer vs the Bal defense. Winning road division games is never easy and it's dubious to think Cin can waltz into anywhere. They were 8-8, have a rookie qb, db's in flux and really have done nothing to suggest division DOMINANCE other than not completely suck for the first time in quite a while.

[Butter]

I can't believe Bengal fans just chalk up all these division wins.

It's been 14 years since we've even been decent. It's called "optimism". Cut us just a teensy bit of slack, k?

[rkmsuf]

It's been 14 years since we've even been decent. It's called "optimism". Cut us just a teensy bit of slack, k?

I'd go with tempered enthusiasm but that's just me. Optimism it is...

[Butter]

Remember, I did say this also.

If Palmer turns out to be crap, then it'll be 5-11 again for a while.

I am realistic. I think the Bengals will be improved, but that out-of-conference schedule is just killer. But if they are truly an improved team, and not just a one year anomaly, then they'll be in the playoff hunt this year, and very well could win the division.

[FrogMan]

interesting, Tebucky Jones for Corey Dillon... From Boston.com:


Patriots get him for 2d-round selection

By Michael Smith, Globe Staff | <NOBR>April 20, 2004</NOBR>

Tebucky Jones for Corey Dillon.

It took a year, and three trades among three teams, but the "transaction" finally was completed yesterday, when the Patriots dealt the first of their two second-round picks in this weekend's draft to Cincinnati in exchange for Dillon, a three-time Pro Bowl running back and the Bengals' career rushing leader.

A year ago last Wednesday, New England traded Jones, its "franchised" safety, to New Orleans for third- and seventh-rounders in the 2003 draft and a fourth-round pick in the '04 draft. The Patriots then traded the Saints' third-round choice to Miami for the Dolphins' second-round selection this year, the 56th overall.


http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/articles/2004/04/20/patriots_acquire_dillon/

Interesting how a trade of a safety for two draft picks, movement of one of the said pick for a higher pick, then finally trade of the that final pick, and it ends up in a RB of Dillon's caliber...

FM

[rkmsuf]

That was a great trade of Tubucky Jones. He was lousy. I even read NO is going to play him some at corner this season. Big mistake...he just not fast enough nor plays with very good technique. His only asset was gambling and making a big hit.

[JAG]

Even if Palmer is outstanding this year, I don't see the Bengals approaching any great heights. There are still way too many questions. Unless Palmer is really not ready, he should have a great start to the year, about 8 games, before teams catch up with him and start taking away things he's successful with.

[albionmoonlight]

I don't think that it was fair that you traded Tebucky to us without telling us that he couldn't tackle. That's like selling someone a car and not telling them that it needs a new transmission. It might be legal, but it just ain't right.

[JAG]

NFL gm's are a lot more unscrupulous than user car salesmen. NO doesn't have a good history of this though, do they? Didn't they trade a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round pick for Steve Walsh?

[rkmsuf]

I don't think that it was fair that you traded Tebucky to us without telling us that he couldn't tackle. That's like selling someone a car and not telling them that it needs a new transmission. It might be legal, but it just ain't right.

People love trading with Haslett, Mueller and Loomis

[albionmoonlight]

IMHO, Mueller wasn't half bad before we fired him.

Haslett, Loomis, Kuhariack (sp?) and Ditka, however, are/were bad front office guys for us.

[rkmsuf]

and the good one is the one not there...hmmmm...

I'm not a Haslett guy at all from afar for some reason...

[albionmoonlight]

Oh--and when Ditka first arrived, we traded some pretty good picks (I forget how much) for Heath Shuler after everyone knew that he sucked.

[Franklinnoble]

Oh--and when Ditka first arrived, we traded some pretty good picks (I forget how much) for Heath Shuler after everyone knew that he sucked.
As a Redskins fan, I beg of you, please don't mention that name around here again.... http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/frown.gif

[judicial clerk]

I want to see the Bengals have a good year and I like Carson Plamer, but a couple of things trouble me. First, didn't he only have one good year in college? Second, wasn't USC better last year without him?

On the positive side, i think it is good that he sat last year. Also, you have Kitna ready to bail him out if he is not ready to start.

[scooper]

I think Dillon just can't stand playing for a loser, i'm hoping he'll do Ok.

As a Patriots fan I'm psyched, been a long time since we had a back that could run for 100 yards on a weekly basis. Its almost a foreign concept.No, that's not it at all. Corey made noise about playing for a loser as his first contract came to an end, but he smiled pretty as he signed his new fat contract.

But his worst complaints actually came during the middle of last season as the team was making a potential playoff run. Folks can look back now and see 8-8 but at the time Corey spouted off to the media, the Bengals controlled their own destiny and were staring down a division title.

But Corey was no longer the man in Cincy. In fact, I'd say he was pretty low down on the list after guys like Marvin, Chad Johnson and Willie Anderson. Not to mention that Rudi was developing into a fan favorite like we haven't seen since Ickey Woods. That is when he started to really complain.

Remember, Corey dropped to the second round in the first place due to character issues. That also had something to do with him playing for a few different college teams.

People, especially Pats fans, will spin it like the Bengals made Corey a malcontent. But he was a malcontent long before he was even drafted.

That said, he is a better running back than he is a teammate. Corey is very inconsistent, as Shorty alluded to above. His games will look like 25-40-50-150-27-270. He gets his yardage in chunks. But when he is on, he runs with intensity and is fun to watch. He has the meanest stiff-arm I've ever seen. If he were smarter, Corey would have made a great linebacker.

I enjoyed watching him play, but I won't miss him. Rudi is not as flashy, but he is a team player and is much more consistent. He'll get between 80 and 120 a game and smile in the background as Chad Johnson hams it up in front of the cameras.

I'm thrilled that the Bengals got a second rounder for a guy many fans thought would have to be cut June 1. The Bengals found players like Corey,Chad Johnson, Eric Steinbach and many former stars in round two. They can find somebody solid with the new pick. Heck, Rudi was a fourth rounder.

As for the weed jokes. It's easy to bash the Bengals. Heck, I bashed them for years as a fan. But pay attention, or you are going to wake up one day in a season or two and wonder, "where in the heck did these guys come from?"

Things are different here. Your football mind may be programmed not to accept that fact, but it's true.

edit to add: It was pointed out on the radio last night that the Bengals have only 4 players currently on the roster that are 30 or older. So when you see them winning, get used to it. It may last awhile.

Who Dey!!!!!!!!!!!!

[cthomer5000]

I want to see the Bengals have a good year and I like Carson Plamer, but a couple of things trouble me. First, didn't he only have one good year in college? Second, wasn't USC better last year without him?
Yes and Yes. You do have to wonder a bit when the first-year starter who replaced him looked like the best QB in the country. For Cincinnati's sake, I hope it's a coincidence.

I'd be pretty nervous about this season if I were the Bengals. If Palmer = Akili Smith II.... it's gonna hurt.

[scooper]

Yes and Yes. You do have to wonder a bit when the first-year starter who replaced him looked like the best QB in the country. For Cincinnati's sake, I hope it's a coincidence.

I'd be pretty nervous about this season if I were the Bengals. If Palmer = Akili Smith II.... it's gonna hurt.
That's legitimate concern, but USC is now in the position to where it's churning out top talent on a regular basis. If Miami goes undefeated next year, does that mean guys like Vince Wilork, DJ Williams and Sean Taylor were maybe not that good? I realize QB is a different position, but the argument can still be made.

USC was a better overall team this season, but I'd bet the team Carson Palmer led against Iowa would have beaten the team Leinhardt led against Michigan. The latter's defense may have been better, but Palmer's offense was better.

[cthomer5000]

That's legitimate concern, but USC is now in the position to where it's churning out top talent on a regular basis.

USC was a better overall team this season, but I'd bet the team Carson Palmer led against Iowa would have beaten the team Leinhardt led against Michigan. The latter's defense may have been better, but Palmer's offense was better.
I'm not saying Palmer will be a bust, or that Leinhart isn't also a top QB. I'm just saying if I were a Bengals fan... the whole situation would probably make me a little more uneasy than I was when Palmer was drafted.

Of course Byron Leftwich pretty much picked up where Chad Pennington left off at Marshall. Or maybe Leinhart will turn out to be a piece of crap pro prospect. Only time will tell.

[Butter]

I'd be pretty nervous about this season if I were the Bengals. If Palmer = Akili Smith II.... it's gonna hurt.

Look man, don't fuck with my analogy ok? This has all been covered in Bengals algebra before....

That is all assuming that Palmer is not Klingler III. (Akili Smith being Klingler II, of course).

Klingler was much worse than Akili Smith, by at least 2 orders of magnitude of suckiness.

[Samdari]

I think scooper's got it right. Dillon's overriding concern - more than winning - is being THE MAN. When asked to play within a team concept, I think he will be more of a cancer than ever before.

[scooper]

Well, we just got our Palmer safety net. Kitna has extended his contract through 2005, lowering his cap his for 2004. At least he won't be a 4+million back-up.

[rkmsuf]

I think scooper's got it right. Dillon's overriding concern - more than winning - is being THE MAN. When asked to play within a team concept, I think he will be more of a cancer than ever before.

Doubtful. Taking a pay cut from 3.75 to 1.5 speaks volumes. Unless he's just a compulsive liar, his comments indicate he's ready to roll with a winning orgainization.

[cthomer5000]

Look man, don't fuck with my analogy ok? This has all been covered in Bengals algebra before....



Klingler was much worse than Akili Smith, by at least 2 orders of magnitude of suckiness.
But I think an Akili Smith analogy actually works better. :)

1 good year in college. Better QB succeeds them immediately. And obviously, both are drafted by the Bengals.

[FrogMan]

I think scooper's got it right. Dillon's overriding concern - more than winning - is being THE MAN. When asked to play within a team concept, I think he will be more of a cancer than ever before.
Yeah, this worries me a little. The only thing I can hope now is that Bill Belichick and Scott Pioli sat down with him for a long talk and explained to him that he will be one of the interchangeable parts in that offense. Now, he says he understands that and he is okay with it, future will tell if he goes along with it...

FM

[cthomer5000]

Well, we just got our Palmer safety net. Kitna has extended his contract through 2005, lowering his cap his for 2004. At least he won't be a 4+million back-up.
Definitely a good move for Cincy.

[Samdari]

Doubtful. Taking a pay cut from 3.75 to 1.5 speaks volumes. Unless he's just a compulsive liar, his comments indicate he's ready to roll with a winning orgainization.

I admit it is a possibility that he has grown up, however you are asking me to ignore seven years of selfish petulance and put my faith in a single act. Kind of a stretch for me.

[Franklinnoble]

It's funny to watch all the Bengals fans have heated debates about these things, as if the team will do anything but suck this year.







;)

Just kidding... I think Marvin Lewis is making a lot of smart moves, and I applaud the overdue ouster of Dillon...

[Butter]

But I think an Akili Smith analogy actually works better. :)

1 good year in college. Better QB succeeds them immediately. And obviously, both are drafted by the Bengals.

Yes, but Klingler sucked and....

ok, I got nothin'.

[cthomer5000]

Yes, but Klingler sucked and....

ok, I got nothin'.
I should've thrown the Pac-10 in there too.

[scooper]

Doubtful. Taking a pay cut from 3.75 to 1.5 speaks volumes. Unless he's just a compulsive liar, his comments indicate he's ready to roll with a winning orgainization.
Trust me, I watched him for seven seasons. He complained about losing twice: Once when his contract was coming up and he ended up getting a fat new one and once when the team was actually winning and he wasn't "the man" anymore.

I'm sure the pay cut was decided before the trade and the trade was probably contingent on that happening. With his age, injury issues and attitude, added to the fact that most teams are against the cap by June 1, he probably got from NE about what he would have gotten on the Market after being cut in June.

I'll say it again. Corey's had attitude issues since before he was drafted. Losing didn't cause it.

[rkmsuf]

Trust me, I watched him for seven seasons. He complained about losing twice: Once when his contract was coming up and he ended up getting a fat new one and once when the team was actually winning and he wasn't "the man" anymore.

I'm sure the pay cut was decided before the trade and the trade was probably contingent on that happening. With his age, injury issues and attitude, added to the fact that most teams are against the cap by June 1, he probably got from NE about what he would have gotten on the Market after being cut in June.

I'll say it again. Corey's had attitude issues since before he was drafted. Losing didn't cause it.

Well find out but so did Brian Cox and Antoine Smith

[Butter]

I should've thrown the Pac-10 in there too.

Now you're just showing off. Bastard. ;)

[Samdari]

Well find out but so did Brian Cox and Antoine Smith

Bryan Cox was always a team player. None of his supposed 'attitude' issues were ever conflicts with the team he was with, they were with the league for his emotional displays on the field.

Antowain Smith's attitude problems were always about him being lazy. Except for his first season with the Pats, he had that problem there too.

Neither had conflicts as frequently and as publicly as Dillon.

[rkmsuf]

Bryan Cox was always a team player. None of his supposed 'attitude' issues were ever conflicts with the team he was with, they were with the league for his emotional displays on the field.

Antowain Smith's attitude problems were always about him being lazy. Except for his first season with the Pats, he had that problem there too.

Neither had conflicts as frequently and as publicly as Dillon.

Besides last season what were Dillon's transgressions?

[cthomer5000]

Brian Cox always just struck me as being a little more crazy than malcontent. I mean like actually nuts.

[rkmsuf]

Brian Cox always just struck me as being a little more crazy than malcontent. I mean like actually nuts.

What gave you that impression? Spitting at people or the flipping off the fans?

[scooper]

[QUOTE=Franklinnoble]It's funny to watch all the Bengals fans have heated debates about these things, as if the team will do anything but suck this year.
[QUOTE]

Heh Heh. We had a rough 12 years. We're not used to all of this acting like a real NFL franchise stuff. You'll have to forgive us if we get a bit out of hand. :D

[scooper]

Besides last season what were Dillon's transgressions?
We'll start with the legal issues. I know growing up there was the drug dealing issue and a lengthy criminal record as a teen. Then as a pro there was the DUI and the wife beating issue.

His academic record was not spotless and he was was at three colleges, each for only one year.

This season was bad, with his in the media "trade me" antics culminating with dissing pro-bowler, team captain and good guy Willie Anderson. Dillon even physically threatened Willie on the Best Damn Sports Show. Where he also dissed another team player-Rudi Johnson. Keep in mind, this started as the team was winning. Oh and lets not forget being the only play under contract to not attend a mini-camp and then turning around and showing up to training camp a day late.

His other transgression came a couple years back with the infamous "I'd rather flip hamburgers" comment and threats to never play here again. But when the team stroked his ego and flashed big money, he seemed to forget about his threats and that the team actually sucked.

I've spoken with an acquaintence who works within the organization and I have a relative who dated a Bengal currently on the roster. From both I heard that Corey has been a stand-offish locker room presence for a long time and really didn't buy into Marvin Lewis or his program.

[rkmsuf]

One thing with Dillon is he clearly is not a team leader and in Cincy he was asked to carry much of the load of the entire franchise being the focus as the best player. In NE he is one of the guys and that may be a big relief to him. Maybe not but well see...

[Samdari]

One thing with Dillon is he clearly is not a team leader and in Cincy he was asked to carry much of the load of the entire franchise being the focus as the best player. In NE he is one of the guys and that may be a big relief to him. Maybe not but well see...

Yes, it could go that way. In Cincy, he was clearly the best player on the team, at least until last year. Perhaps being allowed to just be a running back while the media focuses their attention on Brady and Belicheck, he will not have problems.

[scooper]

One thing with Dillon is he clearly is not a team leader and in Cincy he was asked to carry much of the load of the entire franchise being the focus as the best player. In NE he is one of the guys and that may be a big relief to him. Maybe not but well see...
No. I understand Pats fans looking to find the silver lining in his attitude and blame it on the Bengals. But-I'll repeat what I said earlier- Corey's attitude became an issue this past season while the Bengals were winning and he was no longer "the man."

Corey wants to be in the spotlight. He wants to be #1. With Marvin, that was no longer the case. The Bengals were a much much MUCH worse team in 2002, but Corey was the face of the team and was getting a lot of carries and attention. He never complained once during that season.

In 2003, the play improved and they were in the playoff hunt until the last week. But Corey became at best the third most visible member of the franchise and that's when the troubles started.

[rkmsuf]

I don't think anyone blames the Bengals for anything. Dillon has had a checkered past no doubt. What remains to be seen is the fit in a new organization. If he's going to do well NE is the place.

He will always be a bad guy in Cincy but well see what kind of legacy he writes as a Pat. I'll take the optimistic view that he fits in.

[scooper]

Hey, I've been a Bengals fan for years, I have no problem with optimism. :D


I just see a couple of prevailing thoughts here as being false. One is the "he will be happy when he wins" thought. His attitude was always bad, except when shown the money. His worst outburst happened last season when the team was actually winning and competing for a playoff spot.

The other is "he will be happier when he doesn't have to be the man." Actually, he is happier when he IS the man. He was unhappy this season in spite of winning because others such as Marvin, Chad Johnson and Rudi were getting the attention and were responsible for the turnaround.

Look, from a football point of view, I think he fits very well with NE's needs. I think the trade is great for both teams. I'm just warning Pats fans that simply getting him out of Cincinnati won't make him a different person. He came into this league with attitude issues. Here is a story from his rookie season.


Bengals rookie running back Corey Dillon isn't happy with his state of <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:State><st1:place>Washington</st1:place></st1:State>.

Particularly the <st1:place><st1:PlaceType>University</st1:PlaceType> of <st1:PlaceName>Washington</st1:PlaceName></st1:place>, where he set six school records in eight games last season.

"Not all of the coaches, some of the coaches," Dillon said Wednesday, two days before the Bengals play his hometown Seahawks at Cinergy Field. "One minute, they're praising you. Then you want to go, and they want to bad mouth me . . .

"The coaching staff at the <st1:place><st1:PlaceType>University</st1:PlaceType> of <st1:PlaceName>Washington</st1:PlaceName></st1:place> has no worries in the world. I have all the worries in the world. I'm a struggling college student. I have to feed my folks. If they can't understand that, then to heck with them."

Dillon, from <st1:City><st1:place>Seattle</st1:place></st1:City>'s tough Central District, finds it curious his past became an issue only after he decided to leave Washington early, his third school in three years. He played at two junior colleges: <st1:place><st1:PlaceName>Dixie</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType>College</st1:PlaceType></st1:place> in <st1:place><st1:City>St. George</st1:City>, <st1:State>Utah</st1:State></st1:place>, and Garden City (<st1:State><st1:place>Kan.</st1:place></st1:State>).

He is upset coaches questioned why he didn't stay in one place for more than a year. He's also still fuming over the allegation he sold crack cocaine when he was 15.

According to published reports, Dillon was found guilty of conspiring to deliver two rocks of cocaine to undercover police officers. But he said he didn't have it on him, that it belonged to a person he was with and he didn't know the person had crack.

"I want people to go back, please, and check any juvenile file or whatever," said Dillon, 21. "And I guarantee it will state I never sold any substance to any undercover cop ever.

"I'm glad to be out of (<st1:City><st1:place>Seattle</st1:place></st1:City>) in some sense, but it's my home, too. My family is there. I'll go back. It's all I know. I'm not saying the whole city is bad. I'm just saying some people in the city . . . all these accusations came out when I wanted to come out of school and turn pro."

Dillon's all-out running has received nothing but rave reviews from his coaches, and Bengals' fans have taken to a bruising style accounting for 4 yards per carry.

[Kodos]

It's a safe bet that Corey Dillon is near the top of my list of NFL jerks. :)

[Samdari]

It's a safe bet that Corey Dillon is near the top of my list of NFL jerks. :)

And yet, managed to escape the magnetic fields surrounding Baltimore and Oakland.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

There are certainly some character issues involved, but I have faith in Belichick on this. He won't stand for malcontents (e.g. Terry Glenn - see ya', thanks Green Bay), and so I have to think they have thought this one out. If not, with no signing bonus involved, they can pretty much cut his ass if they need to (although the draft pick will still be lost). I think it's worth it.

[scooper]

There are certainly some character issues involved, but I have faith in Belichick on this. He won't stand for malcontents (e.g. Terry Glenn - see ya', thanks Green Bay), and so I have to think they have thought this one out. If not, with no signing bonus involved, they can pretty much cut his ass if they need to (although the draft pick will still be lost). I think it's worth it.
As a Bengals fan who is thrilled beyond belief to get a second for Mr. Malignancy, I'll have to agree with you that this is certainly worth the gamble for the Pats. A second is a lot to give for a guy with Cancer Dillon's questions, but they have multiple early picks with few holes to fill so they can take a chance.

[RendeR]

It seems that no-one really reads my posts, no matter the topic.

I said in my initial post that it all depends on Palmer, "if he lights up the league" they go 13-3 possibly. I'm NOT betting on that happening.

"if he plays at kitna's level" they repeat 8-8 with a chance at 10-6

Why am I smoking weed or the "most optimistic fan ever" for making these very guarded projections?

We split with all 3 teams in the division last year. Cleveland is WORSE than before, Pittsburgh games were split on QB heroics, and the baltimore games were blowouts at each home stadium.

Pittsburgh has a new offensive coordinator and no real QB, no running game, their defense is suspect but should improve a bit with Lebeau back. We have the talent and the coaching to win both pitt games, we sweep cleveland because frankly, cleveland is pushing arizona for worst team title. We split with baltimore because we always split with baltimore. thats 5-1 and its not that optimistic, its pretty logical.

[cthomer5000]

It seems that no-one really reads my posts, no matter the topic.

I said in my initial post that it all depends on Palmer, "if he lights up the league" they go 13-3 possibly. I'm NOT betting on that happening.

"if he plays at kitna's level" they repeat 8-8 with a chance at 10-6

Why am I smoking weed or the "most optimistic fan ever" for making these very guarded projections?

I think you would have to revise "lights up the league" to "has the best season in history" to go 13-3.

13-3 is just an insanely unrealisitc expectation. How often does any team go 13-3? And the Bengals are questionable at enough areas (RB, DB, QB).. that there is no reason to think they can possible go 13-3.

[RendeR]

semantics, yes he would have to have an unbelievable season for it to happen. But I also think people underestimate what the Bengals can do. I truly believe that Palmer will be more consistant and accurate than Kitna, and that alone should account for 2 more wins than last season.

See my edit above, 5-1 in the division, we should beat buffalo, both new York teams and the redskins, thats 9 wins that SHOULD be expected of any team in our position.

another 1-4 wins in the remaining 7 puts us in the playoffs.

[RendeR]

dola, though I will add that others have mentioned correctly, if Palmer doesn't pan out, we revert to the Bungals of old. My Optimism says this won't happen because Lewis has truly changed the mentality in Cincy. Only time will tell.

[cthomer5000]

semantics, yes he would have to have an unbelievable season for it to happen. But I also think people underestimate what the Bengals can do. I truly believe that Palmer will be more consistant and accurate than Kitna, and that alone should account for 2 more wins than last season.

See my edit above, 5-1 in the division, we should beat buffalo, both new York teams and the redskins, thats 9 wins that SHOULD be expected of any team in our position.

another 1-4 wins in the remaining 7 puts us in the playoffs.13 wins just won't happen. I'd wager a whole lot of money on it. And you're also crazy to assume 5-1 in the division. Look at the year-end standings for any year- it's very, very rare to find a team that does that well in division. I think 4-2 is much more plausible, while 3-3 is more likely.

Baltimore is just a better team right now. In fact, Kyle Boller is more likely to "light up the league" since he actually played half the season last year.

[RendeR]

Baltimore is just a better team right now. In fact, Kyle Boller is more likely to "light up the league" since he actually played half the season last year.


This is a complete crock. Baltimore has a great defense, and they have a great RB. beyond that, they have nothing, their offensive line has one quality player (ogden) their QB Boller is not going to be an NFL starter, sorry folks, he's just not the real thing. And they have no receivers at all. heap might be a good tight end, but if he keeps getting his head knocked off because of the bad throws from boller and wright, he won't survive a season.

I also think you over exaggerate cincinnati's weaknesses. I don't see palmer as questionable, I think at worst and I mean absolute worst, he's another kitna with a stronger arm. anything else is a serious improvement. Johnson may not be barry sanders but he IS consistant and a team player, he gets the load and carries it all year. no real questionmark there.

We DO need improvement on the D-line and at DB, with the depth in the draft at both position, I think we can improve there, lifting our defense into the top half in the league from 25th I think last season.

this is of course all conjecture, I've lived with the misery for 15 years now, this is the first season that I haven't looked ahead and gone *wow, can't wait for this one to end*

I'm actually starting to believe they can regain the respect they once had in the NFL. in the 70's and 80's people didn't want to play the Bengals, because it was NEVER an easy game to win. The 1990's were like a black hole and climbing out of it is going to take time.

and yes, its going to take winning and winning big to really get the monkey off our backs =)

[albionmoonlight]

Kitna played really well last year. I think that it would be hard for any "rookie" QB to match that level of play.

[Butter]

(Baltimore being a better team than Cincy) is a complete crock.

Yes, it is. They are going to be more one-dimensional this year than ever. That dimension is powerful, but who thinks Jamal Lewis will get anywhere near 2,000 yards again this year? Boller had the lowest passer rating of any AFC regular QB last year, and Anthony Wright is not a good signal-caller. Baltimore's D is good, but it is not as good as it has been in the past.

I've lived with the misery for 15 years now, this is the first season that I haven't looked ahead and gone *wow, can't wait for this one to end*

I share your enthusiasm. Let's get this draft going! I just hope they don't take Chris Gamble in the first round.

[cthomer5000]

So you guys seem to believe that Boller getting playing time will make him worse than Palmer sitting on the bench all season? Interesting.

[Samdari]

So you guys seem to believe that Boller getting playing time will make him worse than Palmer sitting on the bench all season? Interesting.

I think that Palmer has a chance to be a good QB in the league, but I doubt he will set the league on fire this year. I happen to think that Boller will suck for all time. Experience only counts if it makes you better - something unlikely to happen to Boller.

[Butter]

I happen to think that Boller will suck for all time. Experience only counts if it makes you better - something unlikely to happen to Boller.

Bingo.

[WSUCougar]

Well, Carolina went 11-5 and continued on to the Super Bowl last year, and few if any predicted that. While I agree that 13-3 is pretty far-fetched, I don't think it's so absurd to think that the Bengals might make a quantum leap with their record and on into the playoffs.

[RendeR]

Well, Carolina went 11-5 and continued on to the Super Bowl last year, and few if any predicted that. While I agree that 13-3 is pretty far-fetched, I don't think it's so absurd to think that the Bengals might make a quantum leap with their record and on into the playoffs.


and this, based on all the facts I've posted in this thread, is exatly what I believe. 13-3 would be the ultimate, we are gods type of season, but will that happen? I don't believe so. is it the high end of the Bell-curve of possibility? sure.

Like I've said twice, its all on Palmer, if he truly is the franchise man we've been hoping for since Boomer retired, we're going to have a decade of positive football in the Ohio river valley.

Go Bengals!


and as for the draft, I'm not sure Gamble is worth a 1st round pick, he's awfully raw, but that raw talent is at a very impressive level. it wouod be a real reach. Unfortunately, I don't think he'll be there at the second round spot =(

can't wait for saturday!

[RendeR]

Bingo.


double-bingo

[scooper]

Realistically, I'm hoping for a 10-6 type season. This schedule is just too hard, and I think Palmer will take his lumps early.

I think the North crown will be a battle between the Bengals and the Ratbirds again, just like last season. I'd give the slight nod to Baltimore right now, but you never know, and the Bengals offense can score on that defense, they did it at Paul Brown Stadium last season.

And no, I don't think Boller's half year of experience gives him an edge over Palmer. Experience alone doesn't make one better. And I'm not exactly sure who Boller will be throwing the ball to. The Ratbirds look like their passing game will hinge on a second round rookie WR. Their running game should be slightly better and their defense much better, but their passing game, I don't think will come near Cincinnati's.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

This is a complete crock. Baltimore has a great defense, and they have a great RB. beyond that, they have nothing,

Whoa, you just lost your own argument. Defense is everything (and a good running game helps too). Every year. Until the Bengal SIGNIFIGANTLY upgrade on D, they will be hardpressed to win even 9 or 10 games this year. This is where Baltimore has you. 5-1 in the division is very unrealistic. The Pats went 14-2, and still were only 5-1 in the AFC East.

Since when did this become a Bengals thread anyways. I thought this was more for us Pats worshippers to pat each on the back. Get outta here. ;)

[stevew]

Pittsburgh has a new offensive coordinator and no real QB, no running game, their defense is suspect but should improve a bit with Lebeau back. We have the talent and the coaching to win both pitt games, we sweep cleveland because frankly, cleveland is pushing arizona for worst team title. We split with baltimore because we always split with baltimore. thats 5-1 and its not that optimistic, its pretty logical.

I hope Staley helps the steelers running game a bit. *Crossing fingers* that he returns to form.

[scooper]

Really, what the Steelers need is an identity. They tried that spread offense and had some success, and why not? They certainly have the WR's for it. But I'm not so sure about the QB for it.

Come on, this is the Steelers. They need to pound the ball and play keep-away. That's how they dominated the division in the 90's.

I'm a Bengals fan, but I'm also a Notre Dame fan and the Bus remains one of my all time favorite players-except when he was gaining his many 100 yard games against the Bengals. I think the Staley move will take some pressure and burden off of him and let him contribute what he can and end his career gracefully with the team he should end it with. If he doesn't have to run 20 times a game, they can still get a good year or two out of him.

Of course, that does depend on Staley returning to form.

Still, I wouldn't be surprised to see Pitt take a RB in the 3rd or 4th this year. There are some decent power backs in that area.

Heck, the Bengals got Rudi in the fourth a couple years ago. He would have been a great RB for the Steelers' power running game. I'm just glad he's not.

[cthomer5000]

Personally, I would bet against Duce Staley being much of a factor.

[scooper]

I think he's an upgrade over Zeroaue (sp?) Not that Amos can't be a good back-his style just didn't fit their needs. It goes back to that offensive identity crisis that I think Pittsburg's been having.