Horse Racing question..

[JeffNights]

Hey all...i just have the very very basic grasp of horse racing, such as the triple crown and the breeders cup and so on son..


my question is...Say a horse wins the triple crown, what happens then?
I mean the horse is only three...horses race for several years more correct? is there a big race or races for these older horses?

please forgive the dumbness, but i really dont know..

[bosshogg23]

I dont know the answer either..........I assumed at this point they retired to breed. Not sure if thats right, guess someone will know.

[SackAttack]

I guess that depends on if they still use imposts or not. If they do, the horses probably retire young if the weights get too crazy.

If not, I guess it's a matter of whether or not the owner wants to risk a horse that would bring an insane stud fee by continuing to run him or her.

[Chubby]

some horses race up til they're 7 yrs old.

I guarentee that The Belmont will be the last race Smarty Jones ever runs if he wins. His stud fee will be insane.

[Bill Abner]

That's a bold guarantee. I'd say there's a much better chance of him retiring after the year is over rather than after the TC. That sure would take the wind right out of the sail if he packed up in June. His stud fee will be high regardless if he wins the Belmont but maybe not as high as some think. There are still a lot of people that feel Smarty is trampling all over his pedigree and that what he is doing is more magical than written in the bloodline. The fact that he's out of a Smile mare just blows my mind. I'm a big Smarty Jones fan, though and I hope he sticks around for a while. I dunno how anyone that follows the sport couldn't be a fan of this horse.

There are a lot of big, big races for 4 year old colts in the US, not including the Dubai World Cup. (Santa Anita Handicap, Pacific Classic, Jockey Club Gold Cup, etc.) There's also the Travers this fall, which I would think would be on Smarty's list of probables. To win the TC AND the Autumn Derby...yikes. There's also the Breeders' Cup Classic at year's end, which I'd think Smarty would run in if sound. Smarty needs to race against the older boys before we can start to signify just how great he is. So far, he's beating a pretty average 3 year old crop--granted he's beating them up like a great horse should, but Smarty needs to test tougher waters especially if he wins the Belmont to really stake his claim, not as a champion, he will have done that, but as a truly-mention-in-the-same-breath-with-the greats kind of horse.

But to answer your question, yes, the majority of horses run past their three year old season. It's a bit rare for a top level horse that has great breeding to race past his/her 4 year old year, though. You don't see too many 6/7 year old champions who aren't geldings or ill-bred themselves. (Congaree, who just retired, being one of the exceptions to this.) It happens, but not as often as it used to. It also depends on the horse; they mature at different rates just like a human. The thoroughbred breed is nowhere near as durable as it used to be, which is another reason you see so many top level horses prematurely retiring (like Empire Maker).

Anyway, I'd wager that Smarty runs through his 3 year old year (health permitting) and then retires to stud if he wins the TC. If he wins the BC Classic at 3 against older horses, then he retires as one of the all time best. At least that's how I'd like to see him go out.

[Franklinnoble]

some horses race up til they're 7 yrs old.

I guarentee that The Belmont will be the last race Smarty Jones ever runs if he wins. His stud fee will be insane.
Not necessarily.

Smarty Jones can't tarnish his reputation by continuing to race. He'll have etched a place in history as the only undefeated triple crown winner since Seattle Slew - nothing he does in the fall will diminish that.

I would expect him to AT LEAST run in the breeder's cup in the fall... and maybe one or two more races. He can't hit the breeding shed until the spring anyway... unless they ship him to Australia right away (highly unlikely).

If anything, his connections have nothing to lose. The old man is about 10 minutes from a dirt nap. If he takes the Belmont, he'll be the richest horse in history - and they won't need the stud fees right away, that's for sure. I'd want to see just how far the horse can go... why retire him right away when you can race him at least thru the 4 year old season and see how he really stacks up in the big races like the Dubai Cup and the Santa Anita Handicap against older competition? It would certainly be good for the sport if Smarty Jones stuck around for a few years.

To answer the original question... some horses have raced for many years... I've seen claimers running at 9 and 10. Top stakes horses rarely go past 6 or 7, just because they can rarely stay at the top of the game that long. A good example is Congaree, one of my all time favorites, who just retired this year as a 6 year old. He had been one of the top handicappers in the country for the last 3 years, but his owners and trainer decided it was finally time to retire him after he had a few less-than-optimal races. He could probably still have success in lower class allowance races, but there would have been nothing for him to prove at that point, and he was better off qutting close to the top of his game and going on to his stud career.

Sadly, far too many good horses are retired at 3 or 4, because of the lucrative appeal of the breeding shed. Most rarely make it past 3 or 4 seasons at stud, because it doesn't take long to see if a horse has the makings of a good stallion. At that point, a lot of them are abandoned, or worse... :(

[QuikSand]

I'm with Bill Abner.

***IF*** Smarty Jones wins the Belmont, yes his breeding bvalue goes up. But let's not get too carried away, he almost certainly wouldn't be immediately whisked off to the shed.

In all likelihood, he would get a shot at a race like the Travers, maybe target the Breeder's Cup, but in all likelihood ride out a fairly uneventful 3yo season and then hang it up. Retiring unbeaten would be a nice notch on the belt -- it's been a long time since we've seen that with a horse of any real repute.

[Chubby]

If Smarty wins the Belmont he'll already be the winningest horse of all time won't he? I know he's in like the top 5 already with his $5 mil bonus from winning the Derby. Tack on another $5 mil bonus for the TC. I just don't see the benefit from him racing after winning the TC (if he does).

[rkmsuf]

One wild card is that if Smarty wins the Triple Crown and wins a couple races in a fall campaign there will be public pressure to continue on. This is becoming a "people's" horse and as long as the old man is still alive we may see him race on. If sound it really would be a shame not to race him at 4.

[clintl]

I seem to remember Seattle Slew (and maybe Affirmed, too) racing as 4-year olds. My guess, though, is that he probably would race until the Breeders Cup, and then retire. I wouldn't want to take a chance beyond that if I were his owner.

[rkmsuf]

I seem to remember Seattle Slew (and maybe Affirmed, too) racing as 4-year olds. My guess, though, is that he probably would race until the Breeders Cup, and then retire. I wouldn't want to take a chance beyond that if I were his owner.

Depends if the Chapman's have kids or their financial position. The old man may want to see him race.

Also, I don't sense they'll get a FuPeg type deal that blows them away.

[Franklinnoble]

Depends if the Chapman's have kids or their financial position. The old man may want to see him race.

Also, I don't sense they'll get a FuPeg type deal that blows them away.
The biggest fear is injury. All things being equal, there's no reason not to run him for another year or so, at least. They don't need the money right away.

However, if he wins the Triple Crown, he'll be the only living Triple Crown winner, and he WILL be worth a fortune in the breeding shed; at least for the first 3 or 4 years - until his get hit the ground and show whether or not he's really a decent stud - and, I digress, even that's not the best indicator right away. Secretariat didn't really have many offspring that ran great, but he turned out to be one of the better dam-sires in recent history...

The point is, horse racing is a dangerous sport for horses. One bad trip, and Smarty Jones can break a leg or his neck or whatever, and then he's worth nothing. That's a big risk when you're talking about a horse that has a once-in-a-generation set of qualifications.

[rkmsuf]

The biggest fear is injury. All things being equal, there's no reason not to run him for another year or so, at least. They don't need the money right away.

However, if he wins the Triple Crown, he'll be the only living Triple Crown winner, and he WILL be worth a fortune in the breeding shed; at least for the first 3 or 4 years - until his get hit the ground and show whether or not he's really a decent stud - and, I digress, even that's not the best indicator right away. Secretariat didn't really have many offspring that ran great, but he turned out to be one of the better dam-sires in recent history...

The point is, horse racing is a dangerous sport for horses. One bad trip, and Smarty Jones can break a leg or his neck or whatever, and then he's worth nothing. That's a big risk when you're talking about a horse that has a once-in-a-generation set of qualifications.

That mindset is a huge problem in the game today. I don't blame people for cashing in but in the grand scheme it really hurts the sport.

[clintl]

That mindset is a huge problem in the game today. I don't blame people for cashing in but in the grand scheme it really hurts the sport.

This is not exactly a new practice in horse racing. Exactly the same issues were discussed when Secretariat, Seattle Slew, and Affirmed won their Triple Crowns.

[rkmsuf]

This is not exactly a new practice in horse racing. Exactly the same issues were discussed when Secretariat, Seattle Slew, and Affirmed won their Triple Crowns.


It's not new but is far more prevalent today overall.

[clintl]

People are trying to protect their investment. Why is that such a terrible thing just because we're talking about sports instead of stocks?

Plus, it's probably better for the horse.

[Franklinnoble]

People are trying to protect their investment. Why is that such a terrible thing just because we're talking about sports instead of stocks?

Plus, it's probably better for the horse.
Spoken like a true stock investor... considering only the short-term gain rather than the big picture. ;)

Having a Triple Crown winner run for at least another year would be huge for the sport of horse racing... it would bring in new fans and new revenue to every track he runs at. In the long term, it's MUCH better if people get a chance to follow the horse for a while longer than just 5 weeks... Cigar is a pretty good example... he didn't win the triple crown, but he won something like 19 races in a row, and brought a lot of attention to the game. As it turned out, he was sterile anyway, so he really had nothing to lose, in hindsight.

[rkmsuf]

Spoken like a true stock investor... considering only the short-term gain rather than the big picture. ;)

Having a Triple Crown winner run for at least another year would be huge for the sport of horse racing... it would bring in new fans and new revenue to every track he runs at. In the long term, it's MUCH better if people get a chance to follow the horse for a while longer than just 5 weeks... Cigar is a pretty good example... he didn't win the triple crown, but he won something like 19 races in a row, and brought a lot of attention to the game. As it turned out, he was sterile anyway, so he really had nothing to lose, in hindsight.

couldn't have said it better.

Obviously as an owner of Smarty Jones I may see it differently but in terms of the NTRA and continued prosperity of racing they need identifiable stars to hang around for more than a year.

Imagine if every year the PGA tour consisted of entirely new players or MLB teams turned over 90% of their roster. That's kind of like what is happening in racing to a degree in the older handicap division. Not that severe but it's hard for fans to latch on to anything other than the 3 yr old trail.

[clintl]

I'm not saying it wouldn't be good for horse racing. But horse racing is all about money in the first place. A good percentage of the people who watch it are more interested in whether their wages will pay off than they are about the horses and jockeys. So why would expect horse owners to not think in those terms? It's the nature of the sport, and always has been, and it's definitely not something that has just come up in the last few years. I can remember people actually criticizing Seattle Slew's owners for running him as a 4-year-old, and risking a deadly injury.

[rkmsuf]

I'm not saying it wouldn't be good for horse racing. But horse racing is all about money in the first place. A good percentage of the people who watch it are more interested in whether their wages will pay off than they are about the horses and jockeys. So why would expect horse owners to not think in those terms? It's the nature of the sport, and always has been, and it's definitely not something that has just come up in the last few years. I can remember people actually criticizing Seattle Slew's owners for running him as a 4-year-old, and risking a deadly injury.

When you are trying to market the sport, introduce new fans and bring people to the track you need all the help you can get.

I'm talking from a broad base perspective and not from those benefiting from syndication and stud fees.

[Bill Abner]

The breed is also very different than what it was even 20 years ago. The complete and total emphasis on speed has created a more fragile stock. American breeders breed for the 6F race rather than the 9F race. (I blame Bold Ruler but that's another story)

And yes, Slew raced when he was 4 (beat Affirmed, actually). Many great horss of earlier generations raced past their 3 year old year but star horses also race fewer times in their career than before (again I blame this on today's breed)

But if anyone thinks that the premature retirement of the stars has no affect on the sport is kidding themselves. The bettors are going to bet regardless, but the potential FAN is turned off by the fact that their favorite runners race maybe 10 times in their career. That's bad. I've been a hardcore lover of this sport for as long a I can remember, and even I get downright pissed when another star is retired due to a small injury from which they could recover when there are still races to be run.

[Franklinnoble]

The breed is also very different than what it was even 20 years ago. The complete and total emphasis on speed has created a more fragile stock. American breeders breed for the 6F race rather than the 9F race. (I blame Bold Ruler but that's another story)

And yes, Slew raced when he was 4 (beat Affirmed, actually). Many great horss of earlier generations raced past their 3 year old year but star horses also race fewer times in their career than before (again I blame this on today's breed)

But if anyone thinks that the premature retirement of the stars has no affect on the sport is kidding themselves. The bettors are going to bet regardless, but the potential FAN is turned off by the fact that their favorite runners race maybe 10 times in their career. That's bad. I've been a hardcore lover of this sport for as long a I can remember, and even I get downright pissed when another star is retired due to a small injury from which they could recover when there are still races to be run.
Well put.

I'd be interested in hearing that Bold Ruler story sometime...

[rkmsuf]

The breed is also very different than what it was even 20 years ago. The complete and total emphasis on speed has created a more fragile stock. American breeders breed for the 6F race rather than the 9F race. (I blame Bold Ruler but that's another story)

And yes, Slew raced when he was 4 (beat Affirmed, actually). Many great horss of earlier generations raced past their 3 year old year but star horses also race fewer times in their career than before (again I blame this on today's breed)

But if anyone thinks that the premature retirement of the stars has no affect on the sport is kidding themselves. The bettors are going to bet regardless, but the potential FAN is turned off by the fact that their favorite runners race maybe 10 times in their career. That's bad. I've been a hardcore lover of this sport for as long a I can remember, and even I get downright pissed when another star is retired due to a small injury from which they could recover when there are still races to be run.

Excellent points. I'll add that the exporting of a large number of top stallions overseas to Japan or Europe over the last couple decades has hurt the American bloodlines.

[Franklinnoble]

Excellent points. I'll add that the exporting of a large number of top stallions overseas to Japan or Europe over the last couple decades has hurt the American bloodlines.
I sort of disagree with this. I think the breed will be well served by inter-mixing the bloodlines of American horses with traditional European lines, and vice-versa. Not sure what Japan really brings to the table, but if they have horse racing fans over there, and they're willing to pay for it, why not let them play?

[rkmsuf]

North America is not importing the best from abroad while abroad is.

[Franklinnoble]

North America is not importing the best from abroad while abroad is.
Well, I would argue that foreign breeders are overpaying for something that we have plenty of.

War Emblem, for example, got a huge contract to go to Japan. That's nice, but we still have HIS sire, Our Emblem, right here in the U.S.

I don't think all the best is leaving. Most of the top money producing sires are in fact still in North America.

[rkmsuf]

Well, I would argue that foreign breeders are overpaying for something that we have plenty of.

War Emblem, for example, got a huge contract to go to Japan. That's nice, but we still have HIS sire, Our Emblem, right here in the U.S.

I don't think all the best is leaving. Most of the top money producing sires are in fact still in North America.


Of course the top money producing sires are in North America. You are ranking based on money won in North America and stud fees paid in North America.

Perhaps War Emblem posssed superior genes based on the combination of Our Emblem and the dam.

[Franklinnoble]

Have a look at the current leading sire list from the Blood-Horse:

http://breeding.bloodhorse.com/sirelists/national04/leading_sire.asp

Of the top 100, I only count 5 that are standing overseas right now, and none of the top 10.

[Franklinnoble]

Dola... I'm pretty sure that list is counting purse winnings worldwide, not just in North America... because you'll note some of the top winners are horses foaled and racing overseas.

[rkmsuf]

Have a look at the current leading sire list from the Blood-Horse:

http://breeding.bloodhorse.com/sirelists/national04/leading_sire.asp

Of the top 100, I only count 5 that are standing overseas right now, and none of the top 10.

Earnings has nothing to do with it. You could export every single horse on that list to Turkey and come up with the same earnings list for other sires since they'd be ones here.

It's not a devasting issue but more of a trend that tends to have an overall impact. A good portion of American bloodstock now resides elsewhere.

[Franklinnoble]

Earnings has nothing to do with it. You could export every single horse on that list to Turkey and come up with the same earnings list for other sires since they'd be ones here.

It's not a devasting issue but more of a trend that tends to have an overall impact. A good portion of American bloodstock now resides elsewhere.
I'm afraid earnings is and always has been the only means we have to judge the worth of a racehorse. There are big purses overseas, and horses are winning them, and having an impact on these earnings lists. But most of those horses are still bred from stallions standing on American soil right now.

The economic nature of the game says that if you're going to pay a fortune for a great stud, you have to charge a fortune to stand him. If you pay a fortune to breed to a stud, you had better be producing good horses. If you're producing good horses, you'll want to get your money's worth, and you'll race him/her in expensive races. Rinse, repeat... and the effect is seen on the sire lists.

[rkmsuf]

Robert Sangster, John Mangnier and Vincent O'Brien themselves transformed Ireland into Europe's premier producer of thoroughbreds and compete pretty much on par with the previously all-powerful American industry.

[Franklinnoble]

Robert Sangster, John Mangnier and Vincent O'Brien themselves transformed Ireland into Europe's premier producer of thoroughbreds and compete pretty much on par with the previously all-powerful American industry.
So why aren't Eurobreds dominating big international races?

American horses rarely ship to Europe, because the money is better over here... but Euros ship here pretty regularly ... and typically get beat.

Dubai is probably a better example... neutral ground, or as close to it as possible, and still largely dominated by American horses year in and year out.

I'm not saying they're not growing good horses in Ireland, and in fact, they may be better suited for European races, but I don't think we have to worry too much about the dilution of American talent. If anything, I encourage the exchange...

[rkmsuf]

So why aren't Eurobreds dominating big international races?

American horses rarely ship to Europe, because the money is better over here... but Euros ship here pretty regularly ... and typically get beat.

Dubai is probably a better example... neutral ground, or as close to it as possible, and still largely dominated by American horses year in and year out.

I'm not saying they're not growing good horses in Ireland, and in fact, they may be better suited for European races, but I don't think we have to worry too much about the dilution of American talent. If anything, I encourage the exchange...

Training is very different on both sides of the pond. Also I wouldn't say Dubai is dominated year in year out by America. Also, Dubai on dirt isn't necessarily even ground at least against Europe.

Look at the Breeder's Cup Turf races and you could make the same claim from a European perspective.

Just because the money is better here doens't mean the quality is a slam dunk better. If anything what was once a position of domination has now become more even ground between America and the rest of the world. That I would attribute to the exportation of American bloodstock overtime and the raiding of yearling sales by the huge European and Japanese outfits.

[Franklinnoble]

Training is very different on both sides of the pond. Also I wouldn't say Dubai is dominated year in year out by America. Also, Dubai on dirt isn't necessarily even ground at least against Europe.

Look at the Breeder's Cup Turf races and you could make the same claim from a European perspective.

Just because the money is better here doens't mean the quality is a slam dunk better. If anything what was once a position of domination has now become more even ground between America and the rest of the world. That I would attribute to the exportation of American bloodstock overtime and the raiding of yearling sales by the huge European and Japanese outfits.
I will agree that European horses are better suited for turf. I would even argue that the European buyers that are raiding the yearling auctions are targeting grass runners deliberately for that purpose. Naturally, there are differences in the races, and hence, the training styles, on both continents.

I honestly don't follow the Breeder's Cup turf races that closely, but I would not be surprised if European horses were having good success there.

My point is that American races are dominated by American horses. American races are almost exclusively on the dirt. American bloodstock is almost exclusively bred for dirt. I keep coming back to the Dubai example because some of the biggest races there are on dirt, and Americans have won them with regularity.

What's more interesting about the Dubai example is a closer examination of the Godolphin operation, contrasted against that of the now defunct Thoroughbred Corporation.

Godolphin's mission for years was to buy up as much rich horseflesh as they could, and run a world-class breeding and training operation in Dubai, with the objective being a victory in the Kentucky Derby. They failed repeatedly, and didn't even try this year.

The Thoroughbred Corporation, also run by a Sauidi oil prince, did things differently... hiring American trainers to buy American horses, and train them on American soil. The were rewarded with the likes of Point Given and War Emblem.

My point is, I don't think the crafty old blue bloods in Kentucky are really going to let a great deal of talented horseflesh leave the country and tip the scales in someone else's favor. You can bet your ass that if Smarty Jones wins the Triple Crown, he'll stand here in the states, and I'm 95% certain it'll be in Kentucky.

The good ole' boys were happy with Prince Salman... he spent his money here, and he kept it here, and I still suspect to this day that he was murdered for being too friendly with America and many prominent Americans.

Godolphin, on the other hand, gets no love, because they're arrogant and over ambitious. I suspect that they have paid way too much for mediocre talent over the years, and perhaps have just now started to realize it.

[mordhiem]

Okay, I am a complete racing newbie even in regards to UK racing, but I have a few questions regarding US racing.

1. Is US horse racing all flats or do they have steeple chase also?
2. What exactly is the 'triple crown'?
3. They race on dirt? WTF?

[Franklinnoble]

Okay, I am a complete racing newbie even in regards to UK racing, but I have a few questions regarding US racing.

1. Is US horse racing all flats or do they have steeple chase also?

There are some steeplechase races in the US. I think I saw one on TV once. Nobody else was watching. Seriously, steeplechase is a complete non-factor... sort of like a European baseball team.


2. What exactly is the 'triple crown'?
The Kentucky Derby, the Preakness Stakes, and the Belmont Stakes - Three Grade I stakes races for 3you horses that take place over the course of five weeks, starting with the Derby on the first Saturday in May. The Derby is run over a distance of 1 1/4 miles, the Preakness at 1 3/16 miles, and the Belmont at 1 1/2 miles. They're all on dirt. In 100+ years, there have only been 11 (or is it 12? can't remember) horses to win all three, and none in the last 26 years. Smarty Jones has won the first two races this year, and has a good shot at the third in two and a half weeks.


3. They race on dirt? WTF?
Just about every major stakes race in the USA is on a flat dirt oval. Most are at shorter distances than what you might see in Europe. Rarely do any horses here race at a greater distance that 1 1/2 miles.. and most are at 1 1/8 miles or less...

[mordhiem]

Thanks for answering.

I usually donn't watch horse racing, especially flats which I find incredibley boring. Now the Grand National though I for some reason find very exciting. I think the huge media coverage is obviously a big factor but it is far more exciting seeing these huge majesctic stallions actually clear 6 ft. jumps while going at full speed. It can be even more exciting/cringing when they fail too. (Releases evil half) ;)

Wow, that's just about the most I've ever written about horse racing.

[Franklinnoble]

Thanks for answering.

I usually donn't watch horse racing, especially flats which I find incredibley boring. Now the Grand National though I for some reason find very exciting. I think the huge media coverage is obviously a big factor but it is far more exciting seeing these huge majesctic stallions actually clear 6 ft. jumps while going at full speed. It can be even more exciting/cringing when they fail too. (Releases evil half) ;)

Wow, that's just about the most I've ever written about horse racing.
That's about the same sentiment you usually get from casual fans here in the US regarding the Kentucky Derby. You'll see a lot of people come out of the woodwork for this one, just because it's an event. Most won't even follow the remaining Triple Crown races, but every year, a few new fans are made...