*Grumble*about OOTP

[Blackadar]

Perhaps this is bad form...but I'm going to grumble about this. I think it's been covered before. If so, oh well.

I've purchased OOTP 4 and OOTP 5. Paid $30+ for each game - no disk, no manual. Just downloaded and got a code. That's pretty expensive for a DL only game as there's no publishing expenses, shipping, smaller overhead, etc. That's about what I pay now for a new game in the stores.

Now OOTP 6 is out and I've read the reviews. Sounds decent enough - I'd probably like to play it. Has a few moderate improvements. But I'll be damned if I'm going to pay $35 for this game again.

With OOTP released yearly, why don't they do something for those of us who have purchased it in the past? If I'm correct, the only way to get a discount is to pre-purchase it, which has a whole different set of risks and issues. After some of the releases from that crew lately, I'm not willing to take that risk. It just seems that OOTP is sticking it a bit to those players who have been loyal. Or at the very least, not cutting those who have supported the product in the past a break. Which IMHO, is bad form. They don't "owe" me anything, but it would have been a decent gesture to give something back.

So OOTP, you can keep your game. I think it's greedy. That's my opinion, I could be wrong.

FYI - FOF isn't released every year, so I can see paying full price for each version. It's a bit different.

[sabotai]

With OOTP released yearly, why don't they do something for those of us who have purchased it in the past?

Who does?

[gstelmack]

Who does?
Jim did with FOF2k4. I've also seen major companies do rebates for prior owners (send CD in or something similar). And lots of PC games do mission packs with new features at reduced prices between full-blown sequels.

Yeah, I know lots don't, and you can come up with plenty of counter-examples, but it does happen.

[Axxon]

They did give a price break for those who preordered. I think it cost $25 bucks. They did it to reward their loyal customers. I bought it at that price.

They said it was logistically difficult to break it up by past customers so they gave everybody a shot at it. Doesn't sound overly greedy to me.

[sabotai]

I'm not saying it doesn't happen every now and then, but it's not standard practice for anyone. FOF2k4 was a only time Jim gave a rebate for prior owners.

And missions packs do not count.

[Blackadar]

I guess I wouldn't have as much of an issue with it if it wasn't already very expensive for a DL only game. Madden comes out every year, but within a week you can find it on sale for $24.95 usually. That strikes me as OK.

I just think that $35 is getting to the point of raping the customer when it's an Internet DL only game that's released every year.

[Blackadar]

They did give a price break for those who preordered. I think it cost $25 bucks. They did it to reward their loyal customers. I bought it at that price.

They said it was logistically difficult to break it up by past customers so they gave everybody a shot at it. Doesn't sound overly greedy to me.

I don't see this the same way. To me, that's getting a discount so you can take the risk of buying a game that's not well tested. In other words, a price break for being a beta tester. And, as always, there were issues (quickly corrected) upon release that support that assertion.

[Blackadar]

Double Dola

BTW, I posted this here so hopefully the OOTP guys will read this and know that it's costing them customers. I don't know if they'll care, but that's another story. If I posted this over on the OOTP website, either it would get locked or the fanboys would flame all over it.

I really do like OOTP. It's just that this release has crossed the line for me from "profit motive" to disregard for the loyal customer.

[Axxon]

I don't see this the same way. To me, that's getting a discount so you can take the risk of buying a game that's not well tested. In other words, a price break for being a beta tester. And, as always, there were issues (quickly corrected) upon release that support that assertion.

Well, they claimed many times that it was for the loyal customers and I don't think they really advertised the price outside of the boards where loyal customers frequented.

They also had this going on it seems like forever and I only took advantage days before release.

Also, I don't recall a paid beta that is offered at a discount and I've participated an a fair number. Maybe there are exceptions but it's hardly the rule.

Lastly, I don't recall OOTP ever offering a discount on their game on or before release so this is uncharted water for them. I see no reason to doubt their motives.

[Leonidas]

Now OOTP 6 is out and I've read the reviews. Sounds decent enough - I'd probably like to play it. Has a few moderate improvements.


I'd say an entirely new game engine and an total overhaul of the player transaction features are more than a few moderate improvements. If you are just a casual player who was very satisfied with V5 had to offer in those areas then maybe you should stay away. But hafter having played V6 I cannot go back to 5.

[Nyarlahotep]

I guess I wouldn't have as much of an issue with it if it wasn't already very expensive for a DL only game. Madden comes out every year, but within a week you can find it on sale for $24.95 usually. That strikes me as OK.

I just think that $35 is getting to the point of raping the customer when it's an Internet DL only game that's released every year.
Can you give some ideas on where to find Madden for $25 a week after release?

[Blackadar]

Well, they claimed many times that it was for the loyal customers and I don't think they really advertised the price outside of the boards where loyal customers frequented.

They also had this going on it seems like forever and I only took advantage days before release.

Also, I don't recall a paid beta that is offered at a discount and I've participated an a fair number. Maybe there are exceptions but it's hardly the rule.

Lastly, I don't recall OOTP ever offering a discount on their game on or before release so this is uncharted water for them. I see no reason to doubt their motives.

I re-read what I wrote and I'm not sure I explained it properly.

I don't see a pre-purchase price break as the same thing as a loyal customer discount. When you pre-purchase, the buyer takes some risk that the game will work, be good, be properly tested, etc. They buy it without the luxury of being able to read reviews, etc. In addition, this discount was available to all people who wanted to pre-purchase. Was this a bad thing? No, but I think it logical that people who pre-purchase should get a discount as they take more "risk".

A loyal customer price break is much different. Again, I wouldn't have as much problem but crossing the $30 barrier on a DL only game (this does make a difference), that it's a moderate update that's released yearly AND not offering past purchasers any kind of discount just crosses the line for me. It's the combination of factors, not any one factor.

If the game sold for $5 or $10 less, I wouldn't expect any discount. If the game wasn't released yearly, I wouldn't expect a discount. Heck, if they shipped a hard copy with a manual (and had more of a fixed cost structure because of it), I wouldn't expect a discount. But they don't.

As a customer, I feel a bit put off by this. Because I do feel put off, I won't buy this version of OOTP and perhaps any other version. Again, they do need to realize that this can and will cost them customers - unnecessarily, in my book.

[Axxon]

I re-read what I wrote and I'm not sure I explained it properly.

I don't see a pre-purchase price break as the same thing as a loyal customer discount. When you pre-purchase, the buyer takes some risk that the game will work, be good, be properly tested, etc. They buy it without the luxury of being able to read reviews, etc. In addition, this discount was available to all people who wanted to pre-purchase. Was this a bad thing? No, but I think it logical that people who pre-purchase should get a discount as they take more "risk".

A loyal customer price break is much different. Again, I wouldn't have as much problem but crossing the $30 barrier on a DL only game (this does make a difference), that it's a moderate update that's released yearly AND not offering past purchasers any kind of discount just crosses the line for me. It's the combination of factors, not any one factor.

If the game sold for $5 or $10 less, I wouldn't expect any discount. If the game wasn't released yearly, I wouldn't expect a discount. Heck, if they shipped a hard copy with a manual (and had more of a fixed cost structure because of it), I wouldn't expect a discount. But they don't.

As a customer, I feel a bit put off by this. Because I do feel put off, I won't buy this version of OOTP and perhaps any other version. Again, they do need to realize that this can and will cost them customers - unnecessarily, in my book.

I understand your point but as I said, they said from the beginning they wanted to offer a loyal customer discount but the logistics wouldn't make it feasable. I have no idea why but they did explain it. A search of their board might bring out the answer.

Since this was their stated goal and since they'd NEVER offered a pre-purchase discount, I take them at their word that this was their intention and that it was not possible. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt since they stated this from day one.

[sabotai]

Can you give some ideas on where to find Madden for $25 a week after release?

If you buy for the PC, EA SPorts (or at least Best Buy) sells them for about $25. I got Tiger Woods 2004 for $25 at Best Buy a week after release. At the time, all of their 2004 titles on the PC were $25 at Best Buy.

As far as consoles go, you'll probably have to dig for the deals, since that's where EA makes their money (for EA Sports)

[FBPro]

Let's see, Madden (or insert other EA Sports title) sells X,XXX,XXX copies per year no problem. OOTP (or insert other sports text sim) sells XX,XXX IF they are lucky beyond belief. Isn't this a rather unfair comparison? Also, who held the gun to your head during the purchase?

[Buccaneer]

Sort of reminds of the FOF4 release where much of the change was the engine (besides a new UI). I suppose one has to be a baseball geek (which I am not) to appreciate the DIPS engine.

[Arles]

I understand your point but as I said, they said from the beginning they wanted to offer a loyal customer discount but the logistics wouldn't make it feasable. I have no idea why but they did explain it. A search of their board might bring out the answer.
I don't know what their answer is, but I do know the difficulty that occurs with doing the above (we have the same service as OOTP). The logistics are crazy and there is a high chance for fraud as well unless you put a great deal of time and effort into tracking it (something neither us nor OOTP Dev can probably afford). Therefore, it makes sense for them to offer the game early at a discount for everyone instead of micromanaging this "repeat customer" option.

[Nyarlahotep]

If you buy for the PC, EA SPorts (or at least Best Buy) sells them for about $25. I got Tiger Woods 2004 for $25 at Best Buy a week after release. At the time, all of their 2004 titles on the PC were $25 at Best Buy.

As far as consoles go, you'll probably have to dig for the deals, since that's where EA makes their money (for EA Sports)
Ahhh. I didn't think about the PC version. I was trying to figure out who would be selling a new game for $25 when I can still sell a game like MVP for $25 to Funcoland.

[Blackadar]

Let's see, Madden (or insert other EA Sports title) sells X,XXX,XXX copies per year no problem. OOTP (or insert other sports text sim) sells XX,XXX IF they are lucky beyond belief. Isn't this a rather unfair comparison? Also, who held the gun to your head during the purchase?

Exactly. Nobody is holding a gun to my head. I'm voting with my wallet. But I'm also letting OOTP know why I'm choosing to vote that way.

Also, the Madden thing was to demonstrate that there's a price point where the customer feels that it's unfair or bad business. OOTP has crossed that price point for me.

[FBPro]

Fine, I think that you are in the minority but that is completely and totally up to you.

[lynchjm24]

Exactly. Nobody is holding a gun to my head. I'm voting with my wallet. But I'm also letting OOTP know why I'm choosing to vote that way.

Also, the Madden thing was to demonstrate that there's a price point where the customer feels that it's unfair or bad business. OOTP has crossed that price point for me.

I guess my biggest disagreement is that $35 versus $30 is a big difference.

Comparing the people that program the text sims to EA is quite a leap of faith.
Guys like Markus, Jim, Arlie can make an awful lot of money doing something other then programming text sims. If the small but loyal community doesn't support them they will go do something more lucrative and we will all suffer. (Not that I am advocating supporting a game just because it's a text sim, but I pretty much buy the games where the programmer seems dedicated and there is at least modest improvement over time.)

As for when the discount was offered, it's not like OOTP doesn't have a body of work and a programmer who obviously cares about his customer base. I guess you could be leary of a preorder, but even as I'm frustrated by OOTP right now, I know it's a work in progress. I often disagree with the masses on OOTP and the direction the game (and other text sims go in), but that doesn't make me appreciate the work that a guy like Markus does any less.

If I may borrow a phrase from Iverson. What are we talking about man? 5 dollars? 5 dollars man? We talkin bout 5 dollars.

[JimboJ]

I don't see a pre-purchase price break as the same thing as a loyal customer discount. When you pre-purchase, the buyer takes some risk that the game will work, be good, be properly tested, etc. They buy it without the luxury of being able to read reviews, etc. In addition, this discount was available to all people who wanted to pre-purchase. Was this a bad thing? No, but I think it logical that people who pre-purchase should get a discount as they take more "risk".

What exactly is the "risk" of pre-purchasing? You still get a 7 day money back guarantee whether you pre-purchase or not. That's 7 days from the time you install and license the game, not when you purchase it.

You pre-pay, get the game for a discount, and if you don't like it, you unlicense it and get a refund, the same as someone who paid full price. Where's the risk??

[Ksyrup]

Pre-purchasing is not a '"risk" as much as it is a "time-value of money" thing. You would expect to pay less for something that you are paying for now, but won't get to play for X days/weeks, etc., as opposed to plunking down $X and getting instant gratification.

I think that's more to the point of what Blacky's getting at - the pre-purchase "discount" really isn't a discount, it is more of an economic consideration that $25 today and getting the game in one month is roughly equivalent (at least in OOTP Developments' marketing decision) as $35 the day the game comes out or whenever after the game is released you choose to buy it.

[Axxon]

I don't know what their answer is, but I do know the difficulty that occurs with doing the above (we have the same service as OOTP). The logistics are crazy and there is a high chance for fraud as well unless you put a great deal of time and effort into tracking it (something neither us nor OOTP Dev can probably afford). Therefore, it makes sense for them to offer the game early at a discount for everyone instead of micromanaging this "repeat customer" option.

I'm quoting you because this is important and no one seems to have noticed it.

[MizzouRah]

Madden comes out every year, but within a week you can find it on sale for $24.95 usually. That strikes me as OK.

I just think that $35 is getting to the point of raping the customer when it's an Internet DL only game that's released every year
I'm wayyy late into this thread and I know this is meant for PC players, but $50 per year sucks for us console players. $25.95 or whatever to pre-order ootp is a BARGAIN, imo... because when all is said and done, the $50 game is sitting on the shelf while my $26 is still going. :)


Todd

[JimboJ]

Pre-purchasing is not a '"risk" as much as it is a "time-value of money" thing. You would expect to pay less for something that you are paying for now, but won't get to play for X days/weeks, etc., as opposed to plunking down $X and getting instant gratification.

I think that's more to the point of what Blacky's getting at - the pre-purchase "discount" really isn't a discount, it is more of an economic consideration that $25 today and getting the game in one month is roughly equivalent (at least in OOTP Developments' marketing decision) as $35 the day the game comes out or whenever after the game is released you choose to buy it.

You're right, its more like a loan to OOTP. You give them $25 today, and in return they give you a $35 game a month from now. That seems like a pretty good return on my investment, considering today's interest rates. :)

[Sweed]

I guess my biggest disagreement is that $35 versus $30 is a big difference.

Comparing the people that program the text sims to EA is quite a leap of faith.
Guys like Markus, Jim, Arlie can make an awful lot of money doing something other then programming text sims. If the small but loyal community doesn't support them they will go do something more lucrative and we will all suffer. (Not that I am advocating supporting a game just because it's a text sim, but I pretty much buy the games where the programmer seems dedicated and there is at least modest improvement over time.)

As for when the discount was offered, it's not like OOTP doesn't have a body of work and a programmer who obviously cares about his customer base. I guess you could be leary of a preorder, but even as I'm frustrated by OOTP right now, I know it's a work in progress. I often disagree with the masses on OOTP and the direction the game (and other text sims go in), but that doesn't make me appreciate the work that a guy like Markus does any less.

If I may borrow a phrase from Iverson. What are we talking about man? 5 dollars? 5 dollars man? We talkin bout 5 dollars.

Got to agree with this post. I've never understood the well if it was $30 instead of $35 I'd buy it. To me you either enjoy the game or you don't.
Lowering the price $5 isn't going to make me any more likely to buy if I don't enjoy the game. Just like raising the price $5 won't stop me from buying the game if it is something I enjoy.

My 2 cents :)

[Barkeep49]

I think the comparison between OOTP6 and FOF4 is quite apt and the reason why I think I'm going to wait for the SI/OOTP game instead of getting this version.

[Fouts]

I preordered OOTP6 for the H2H action. Now wtf is it?

[LionsFan10]

Haha, remember that promise? Head two head. FOOLS! Why would you even believe such a statement? Since the game released I haven't read a solid word about it besides "their working on it." Well I certianly hope you are, but that just allows them to waste as much time as they want until they finally do put head to head in the game ... for OOTP7.

[Blackadar]

Got to agree with this post. I've never understood the well if it was $30 instead of $35 I'd buy it. To me you either enjoy the game or you don't.
Lowering the price $5 isn't going to make me any more likely to buy if I don't enjoy the game. Just like raising the price $5 won't stop me from buying the game if it is something I enjoy.

My 2 cents :)

There come a point that the price/value equasion doesn't work. So $35 is ok for you. How about $40? $45? $50? $55? What increment of $5 is your cut-off? So yes, $5 will make a difference for everyone - at some point on the curve. Simple economics.

[EagleFan]

After some of the releases from that crew lately, I'm not willing to take that risk.


What releases?

[MizzouRah]

Haha, remember that promise? Head two head. FOOLS! Why would you even believe such a statement? Since the game released I haven't read a solid word about it besides "their working on it." Well I certianly hope you are, but that just allows them to waste as much time as they want until they finally do put head to head in the game ... for OOTP7.

Considering Markus's track record, I'm confident H2H will be in the next patch/update. I don't think he liked what he programmed for H2H, so instead of releasing a half-assed H2H mode, he released the game and decided to fix it. Just my thoughts.


Todd

[LionsFan10]

I agree, but I feel like they made it seem like the release of head to head was quite a bit closer then it wound up being. I don't have any solid quotes or threads to back me up, but I just remember feeling like it was coming with the first or second patch, now I haven't heard anything about it so I figured they're trying to bury it.

You're probably right though, it's probably coming and hopefully soon. I'd love to get that a try.

[lynchjm24]

There come a point that the price/value equasion doesn't work. So $35 is ok for you. How about $40? $45? $50? $55? What increment of $5 is your cut-off? So yes, $5 will make a difference for everyone - at some point on the curve. Simple economics.

Of course there is a point that I don't pay. Seeing as how I've paid $50 for PS2 games that I spent 1 day with I doubt it's below $55 for me.

Again, I respect the fact that people have to make a living and if I bought the game year x, I doubt that no matter what that price was, it wouldn't scare me away to pay $5 more year y.

[Samdari]

You know, this is ridiculous.

If something is offered for sale at a price you are not willing to pay, DON'T BUY IT. That's the essence of capitalism.

I really do not understand the whining/complaining. This is not gas, milk or bread, nor is it a company which has become a monopoly by using questionable business practices to squeeze its competitors out of the market. This is entertainment, in a crowded entertainment market. You have other options. If you find one which entertains you as much for less money, then you should take it. If this is something that will give you 50+ hours of quality entertainment, 35 bucks is a laughably low price to pay.

[Cuckoo]

I don't think you're reading what he's saying Samdari. While I don't necessarily agree with his reasoning, I understand his point. He's saying that he has chosen not to buy the game and is offering his reasoning so that the makers will be aware. I didn't read it as whining or complaining.

[StormcloudCreations]

Who does?

Maybe i'm unusual, but..I do. People who I have on record as buying all of my games and contributing greatly to my betas, helping me out and such things, I always try to offer them special discounts and pre-order sales on new stuff, even sometimes at 1/2 price. It's called "rewarding customer loyalty", giving a darn about the people that keep you in business. :D So there are a few who do.

I think his point was: is the new version worth another $35? I like the improvements to OOTP, but it would be like me adding a few extra Gladiator slots to your stable, upgrading the graphics (slightly) and new contract options and "minor leagues" to Coliseum, and charging $25 for it again. People would laugh at me, more than likely. Or wouldn't they? :)

[Sweed]

There come a point that the price/value equasion doesn't work. So $35 is ok for you. How about $40? $45? $50? $55? What increment of $5 is your cut-off? So yes, $5 will make a difference for everyone - at some point on the curve. Simple economics.

Well, this is how I look at it. We are talking about a computer game and most games I say would fall in the $25 to $50 range. So to me anything is this range is acceptable as long as it is a game I enjoy and get use out of.
If it is a game like ootp that I have been playing for years than going over $50 would be ok since I know, at least for me, I'll get value for my entertainment dollar. A $50 price tag for a game I had never played before would probably discourage me from buying unless someone I really trusted told me it was worth it.

To me though what it costs the developer to make the game is irrelevant. As you said there is either a price/value equation that works or doesn't. Of course this may not apply to you but I will get more than $35 worht of entertainment out of ootp6. So it doesn't matter if it cost Markus $5 or $25 to develope it to me. It's the same for any game. I just bought Fight Night for the ps2 for my son. The game cost $50 and we both play it. Now I don't care if it cost EA $10 or $30 to develope as we will get the value we want for the dollars spent.

It just appears we have a different way of deciding on the value of a game and, as Stuart Smalley would say, that's ok. :)

[clintl]

Pre-purchasing is not a '"risk" as much as it is a "time-value of money" thing. You would expect to pay less for something that you are paying for now, but won't get to play for X days/weeks, etc., as opposed to plunking down $X and getting instant gratification.

I think that's more to the point of what Blacky's getting at - the pre-purchase "discount" really isn't a discount, it is more of an economic consideration that $25 today and getting the game in one month is roughly equivalent (at least in OOTP Developments' marketing decision) as $35 the day the game comes out or whenever after the game is released you choose to buy it.

You are assuming an EXTREMELY high interest rate if that's the argument you're making. Something like 500%.

[Antmeister]

Blakadar, I understand your dilemna, but only to a certain point...

When it comes to a manual, I understand that frustration. I dont appreciate the fact that I am having to scan through message boards to find out how to implement the new features. Luckily I am not new to OOTP, but I can only imagine how it is like for a totally new buyer of this series.

However once I understand the game, I think it is well worth the money. The game has depth and provides hours, days, and months of enjoyment. Since a movie cost me about $7 to $10 bucks or even the old fashioned arcades would cost me $20 a pop, I believe that this provides much more for your bucks.

So I guess what I am saying is that it all depends in how much you get out it. I haven't really noticed any users complaining about CM's prices, but that is because to many people it provides much more entertainment and depth than it visual rivals.

[Ksyrup]

You are assuming an EXTREMELY high interest rate if that's the argument you're making. Something like 500%.
That's not the argument I'm making, that's the business decision OOTP Developments chose to make.