Best/Worst Presidents of All-Time

[lcjjdnh]

Since I know we've had some pretty good historical debates in the past, I thought I'd bring this one up since my friends and I had quite a debate today. Our history teacher gave to us as a final project to list our top 5 and worst 3 presidents in history along with a paragraph on each president's contributions. He gave this to us at the end of class and we ended up discussing for about another 1.5 hours through our physics and math class. It was very interesting as well because my friends and I tend to be more liberal as does our physics teacher so we pretty much had a solid consesus of a list. Then we went to math, where our proctor is another history teacher in the school(our school doesn't offer Calculus II, so we take it over ITV with a teacher/class in another school, good idea in theory but the logistics make it a pain the neck with different schedules to get ready for the AP exam). Anyway, he is probably the most conservative teacher in the school so although there was some common ground there was also a lot of fighting(specifically on Reagan) but we basically could have predicted his list before he even told us.

Anyway here is my personal list(in no particular order):

-Washington-basically by virtue of being the first and having to establish what exactly the role of the president would be in the country
-Lincoln-Although the Civil War was techniquely not fought to abolish slavery, eventually he did and united the country
-Teddy Roosevelt-made a lot of progess as a "progressive" president. Helped in beginning to break of the trust of the day and made many political reforms. He also was a big supporter of conservationist efforts and established the concept of national parks. He got the Panama Canal built and also won a Nobel Peace Price for his mediation in the Russo-Japan conflict.
-FDR-New Deal/Leadership during WWII(this obviously sparked a huge debate between us and the other history teacher-he even then compared Bush II to FDR saying that people will respect what Bush did now in the future much like people thought FDR was a idiot(his words not mine)
-Woodrow Wilson-I know this one will spark a lot of debate because it did last time we had a list like this but he did a lot to try and forge peace after WWI. Although many people laugh at the League of Nations, with US it might have worked. Domestically, he lowered the tariffs which helped to elminate some of the monopolistic policies of some companies. He created the Federal Trade Commission as well as the Federal Reserve System. He also helped to forge better relationships in Latin America.

Worst
-Nixon-although as a president he did a fairly good job, he did prolong the Vietnam War. But his major criticism is the Watergate affair which did so much to damage the credibility of the presidency he balances out all the good things he did(better relations with USSR/China, end war, etc.)
-Rutherford B. Hayes-The compromise he made to become president meant an end to the military rule of the South as well as putting many Southerners in his cabinet. This meant the end to reconstruction in the South as well as Civil Rights. He effectivily ended any movement towards Civil Rights in the South until Brown v BOE.
-Harding-Teapot Dome Scandal coupled with a generally incompetent performance as president

Others that arroused debate:
Clinton-I like Clinton but don't think he's top 5. On the other hand, the one teacher hates Clinton and considers him possibly bottom 3 because he feels the economy had nothing to do with him(which I won't argue with) and that he disgraced the presidency and made it undignified(I think this is a bit of an overstatement)
Reagan-He loves his economic policy and feels he is solely responsible for ending the Cold War. Although he may have helped end the Cold War, I think he is overstating his importance a bit. Also he messed up a lot of things in Central America and also probably contributed to the drug problem of the 80s indirectly with these policies as the CIA allowed many of these people to smuggle drugs into the country to raise money(specifically the Nicarguan Contras)
Andrew Jackson-although he made a lot of reform for the common man I argue that he also did a lot of bad. He brought down the National Bank which caused economic problems in the future. He had a harsh policy in regards to Native Americans. He appointed Roger Taney to the bench a man who helped make a decisions in one of the two cases most responsible for impeding Civil Rights in America in the Dred Scott Decision.

Anyway, just thought it would be an interesting discussion so feel free to agree/disagree with my list as well as post your own.

[WSUCougar]

Here's an old thread on the topic:

Best/Worst Presidents (http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/showthread.php?t=24426&highlight=Presidents)

[lcjjdnh]

I vaguely remembered that thread when I started this one but for some reason thought it was concentrated more on the recent presidents, looking back now, for the most part it did but there was some historical discussion. I figured this one could be solely a all-time list as oppossed to just a best of a life-time, but I see that was covered somewhat in that thread. Had I released the other one was so recent I would have just bumped it for continued discussion but since I started this one already, feel free to continue discussion or just let it drop.

[WSUCougar]

Sorry, didn't intend to thwart your thread - just thought it would add some fodder for the discussion.

[Glengoyne]

....
-Lincoln-Although the Civil War was techniquely not fought to abolish slavery, eventually he did and united the country

Then why pray tell was the Civil War fought?

States Rights? OK...Specifically which Right?

[ISiddiqui]

Then why pray tell was the Civil War fought?

Lincoln fought the Civil War to preserve the union. He didn't give a rats ass about the slavery stuff until it was politically expedient for him to do so.

[Fritz]

He did inspire a pretty good album from TMBG

[Raven]

[QUOTE=Glengoyne]Then why pray tell was the Civil War fought?
QUOTE]

Money. Cotton, Tobacco. The North wanted the money to build the railroad and expand their wealth.

Lincoln is overrated. Though he did free the slaves, he didn't do it because he felt they deserved it. Republicans had their own agenda.

[Glengoyne]

Lincoln fought the Civil War to preserve the union. He didn't give a rats ass about the slavery stuff until it was politically expedient for him to do so.
Why did he NEED to preserve the Union? Because the South wanted to continue slavery, and were willing to secede to continue the practice. I used to agree with your position, but really when you get right down to it Slavery was the root cause of the Civil War. I used to think Slavery was the "simple" answer, and that there were a good number of root causes, but in the end all of the other concerns have their root in slavery.

[RPI-Fan]

One thing to note...

FDR certainly was good, but steals a little bit of Herbert Hoover's thunder. Hoover struggled, but made admirable efforts to pull the country out of depression, and as he was elected out had made some noteworthy efforts that ended up being some of the most successful parts of FDR's plan.

[sabotai]

Why did he NEED to preserve the Union?

Money, cotton, tobacco...

[ISiddiqui]

Why did he NEED to preserve the Union? Because the South wanted to continue slavery, and were willing to secede to continue the practice. I used to agree with your position, but really when you get right down to it Slavery was the root cause of the Civil War. I used to think Slavery was the "simple" answer, and that there were a good number of root causes, but in the end all of the other concerns have their root in slavery.

Um... what really is your point? All of what you've said does not change the fact that the reason Lincoln went to war was to preserve the union, not to end slavery. In fact if he could have ended the war in a month and keep slavery as is, he would have done it. The Civil War was not fought to abolish slavery.

Just admit you overreacted to the original post on Lincoln.

[WSUCougar]

Lincoln needed to preserve the Union because the clash of Northern and Southern social and economic structures that had been postponed again and again – from the earliest period of our nationhood, through the Constitutional Convention of 1787, through the Nullification Crisis, through the Missouri Compromise, through the Kansas-Nebraska Act, and through every other incident and aggravation between the two sections – finally erupted beyond repair. Secession, the formation of the Confederacy, and the firing on Ft. Sumter followed.

Lincoln fought to restore the union of states, but the union as it existed beforehand was irreparable. Slavery had to be excised, and eventually he realized it.

[Raven]

Here's a powerful quote, found in a letter written by Lincoln himself.


PRESERVING THE UNION SHOULD BE THE PRIMARY WAR AIM
By Abraham Lincoln
August 22, 1862



Reply to Horace Greeley's criticism of his war and antislavery policies.


Dear Sir:

I have just read yours of the 19th, addressed to myself through the New York Tribune. If there be in it any statements or assumptions of fact which I may know to be erroneous, I do not now and here controvert them. If there be in it any inferences which I may believe to be falsely drawn, I do not now and here argue against them. If there be perceptible in it an impatient and dictatorial tone, I waive it in deference to an old friend, whose heart I have always supposed to be right.

As to the policy I "seem to be pursuing," as you say, I have not meant to leave anyone in doubt.

I would save the Union. I would save it the shortest way under the Constitution. The sooner the national authority can be restored, the nearer the Union will be "the Union as it was." If there be those who would not save the Union unless they could at the same time save slavery, I do not agree with them. If there be those' who would not save the Union unless they could at the same time destroy slavery, I do not agree with them. My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves, I would do it; and if I could do it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that.

What I do about slavery and the colored race I do because I believe it helps to save this Union; and what I forbear I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause. I shall try to correct errors when shown to be errors; and I shall adopt new views so fast as they shall appear to be true views.

I have here stated my purpose according to my view of official duty, and I intend no modification of my oft-expressed personal wish that all men, everywhere, could be free.

[ISiddiqui]

Indeed, WSU, it was only until much later on did Lincoln realize in order to solidify the union the slavery issue must be decided. However, when he began the fight, he thought that if the Southern states were brought back in by force, it would be ok. Abolishing slavery was the furthest thing from his mind at the time and Lincoln did not intend to fight a war over it.

[WSUCougar]

What always strikes me in this debate is how some people equate the war being about slavery with a moralistic, abolitionist crusade. Not at all. It was about political power and the ability to dictate policy, most of which was based on a state's position on the institution of slavery.

[Axxon]

He did inspire a pretty good album from TMBG

I Heart TMBG. They are awesome.

[Axxon]

Ok, my list.

Best:

Abraham Lincoln - I don't give a rats ass what he felt personally about slavery. He preserved the union and he abolished slavery. He made the right decisions at the right time. That's what counts.

FDR - I don't care who's thunder he stole. He brought the country back from disaster and managed a great war effort. He wins on handling the war alone if you want to take the rest of his accomplishments away from him.

Richard Nixon - so I'm a fan. Sue me. :) Detente, ending the Vietnam war, Peace in the Middle East, Normalizing relations with China. I like the guy and he made the choices that worked for the country. Question his motives if you will. His decisions were good ones.

Bill Clinton - the economy was good, our world status was good, folks were happy. He made mistakes but his mistakes didn't make a dent in the three things above. I'm not really sure he ranks objectively but I had a nice 8 year run. I'd pick him.

Theodore Roosevelt - He was a no nonsense man who wasn't always popular but made the tough decisions and spent a life serving our country and serving it well. I'm proud of him. He makes the list.

Now, 3 worst. Hmmm.

Andrew Johnson - maybe he was the wrong man in the wrong place but his administration was a mess and so was the nation.

Ulysses Grant - took over from Johnson and didn't do anything to make things better. It's one of our countries lowest points.

Ronald Reagan - I just hate the guy. This isn't an objective vote but I'm not going to search for the third worst. We've been a lucky, prosperous and succesful country. I think the third worst being a guy you hate vs one that deserves it is a very fortunate choice to be able to make. :)

[ISiddiqui]

I'm not sure Grant was a worse president than Harding or Carter. In fact current reexaminations of his Presidency shows that he may have been given a more bum rap than he really deserved.

[Glengoyne]

Um... what really is your point? All of what you've said does not change the fact that the reason Lincoln went to war was to preserve the union, not to end slavery. In fact if he could have ended the war in a month and keep slavery as is, he would have done it. The Civil War was not fought to abolish slavery.

Just admit you overreacted to the original post on Lincoln.
Done!

The thought occured to me immediately after posting, that I could certainly read his statement in a way that I agreed with it. The war was in fact fought to preserve the union. That I cannot argue.

I do maintain that the cause of the civil was the abolition of slavery or more correctly, the fear of the abolition of slavery. The south was afraid the end of slavery was going to ruin the economic system of the south, and they seceded from the union. If the south doesn't secede, there is no reason to "protect the union" by force of arms. If not for slavery the Southern states don't secede.

[WSUCougar]

Ulysses Grant - took over from Johnson and didn't do anything to make things better. It's one of our countries lowest points.
As Isddiqui stated, this is an outdated interpretation. Reconstruction was a nightmare and indeed one of our country's lowest points, but to say Grant didn't do anything is completely false.

Of course one of the great What Ifs of American history is to ponder what Reconstruction under Lincoln might have been like.

[Tom E]

What about Jimmy Carter, how this tree hugger got elected blows my mind. I guess people where in a mental fog from to much cocaine and disco music. So they voted for the guy who reminded them of there Jr. High Principle...

[QuikSand]

So, for you real historian types... where does Andrew Jackson fit?

[Franklinnoble]

So, for you real historian types... where does Andrew Jackson fit?
On the $20 bill.

[Dutch]

Done!

The thought occured to me immediately after posting, that I could certainly read his statement in a way that I agreed with it. The war was in fact fought to preserve the union. That I cannot argue.

I do maintain that the cause of the civil was the abolition of slavery or more correctly, the fear of the abolition of slavery. The south was afraid the end of slavery was going to ruin the economic system of the south, and they seceded from the union. If the south doesn't secede, there is no reason to "protect the union" by force of arms. If not for slavery the Southern states don't secede.

The Conferate States broke away from the Union in order to preserve slavery for fear of Abraham aboloshing slavery. Abraham Lincoln went to war to preserve the Union.

While the absolute direct point to point reason was to preserve the union, I have to question if the states splitting and/or a war would have taken place if there was no fear in the south of a northern insistance on abolishing slavery.

[lcjjdnh]

So, for you real historian types... where does Andrew Jackson fit?
Well personally, I don't really like him for his destruction of the national bank and his appointment of Roger Taney to Chief Justice. On the other hand, he should be given credit for for his stance against Calhoun and nullification, standing strong to preserve the union despite his states' rights agenda. Because of this and his bringing politics to the "common" man he can not be rated one of the three worst but probably for me is in the bottom 10 at least. Taney and his Indian policy set back Civil Rights by years and his absolute refusal to allow a national bank was not good for the economic development of the country.

[clintl]

So, for you real historian types... where does Andrew Jackson fit?

Andrew Jackson ranks as the most evil US president.

[sabotai]

I have to question if the states splitting and/or a war would have taken place if there was no fear in the south of a northern insistance on abolishing slavery.

The rift between north and south had been growing stronger for decades. I think a civil war probably would have happened regardless of slavery at some point.

[WussGawd]

Lincoln fought the Civil War to preserve the union. He didn't give a rats ass about the slavery stuff until it was politically expedient for him to do so.

Actually, he did give a rat's a** about slavery. He made speeches as early as the 1830's against it. The thing is, Lincoln was a master politician, and was careful to gauge the reaction of pro-slavery border states before moving in that direction.

[Dutch]

The rift between north and south had been growing stronger for decades. I think a civil war probably would have happened regardless of slavery at some point.

Maybe. But the southerners in 13 states had to have felt pretty strongly about President Lincoln beyond what the quotables mentioned above suggested. I mean, to remove themselves from the United States of America because he is elected is a pretty spectacular response. Something was probably up. The issue of a divided pro-slave/anti-slave union was at the core of that problem.

[kcchief19]

It makes the U.S. history buff in me proud to see that other people know and understand that the Civil War was not really about slavery, but was more about economics. Preserving the union was an antebellum PR campaign.

Andrew Jackson is indeed a tough one. He was a revolutionary who redefined politics and the presidency. He may have increased the power of the presidency more than any other president. But ... his Indian policies and slavery policies continue to haunt this country to this day.

Next up, maybe we can discuss why the American Revolution wasn't really a revolution.

[Warhammer]

Top 5 Presidents:

1) Washington - He laid down policy that guided this country in some ways until WWII.

2) Lincoln - Preserved the Union and did what needed to be done to see the Civil War through to the end. In many ways, he faced similar obstacles to what Bush II has had to on the home front.

3) Teddy Roosevelt - Pretty much the same as every one else posted previously, plus he realized that we deserved a piece of the world stage, and he put us there.

4) Truman - He had the guts to drop the bomb to end WWII and prevent the loss of many US troops. He also formulated the Truman Doctrine which guided the US throughout the Cold War.

5) Reagan - Mainly because I cannot think of any other person to put here. Ended the Cold War, reduced pushed Congress to reduce taxes which lead to the economic expansion of the 80s and 90s.

Worst

1) James Buchanan - Did nothing, but let the state of affairs get worse and worse.

2) FDR - Unline others, as we get further removed from him, the more I think he did to ruin the country. However, he was a popular president at the time. However, he mortgaged the future with Social Security, thereby laying the foundation for the Welfare/Entitlement State. Also, his failure to side with Churchill at many of the later meetings of the Big 3 during WWII gave away much of what we had fought for, and laid the foundation for the Cold War, since he did not realize that Russia and the West were only allies of expediency.

3) Harding - Another do nothing, but he had scandal after scandal during his term.

Second tier of the best (in no particular order)
1) James Polk
2) Jefferson
3) Jackson
4) Kennedy
5) Nixon

[larrymcg421]

The north may have had other reasons, but for the south it was indeed about slavery. They screamed states rights, but they didn't give their own states the right to abolish slavery. It was part of the confederate constitution.

Lincoln was a bit overrated, but he was a very strong leader. I'm not sure how reconstruction would've gone with him, but Andrew Johnson is on my llist of worst U.S. Presidents for his attempts to destroy reconstruction.

I admire FDR's crucial leadership during the depression, but the relocation of the Japanese was a civil rights disaster and that automatically vaults him near the bottom of my list.

My favorite President is probably Teddy Roosevelt. I certainly don't agree with everything he did, but he went against the grain several times with his environmental policies and his attempts at trustbusting. I think if John McCain had been elected, his Presidency would have been similar.

[Sharpieman]

Top 5 Presidents:
2) Lincoln - Preserved the Union and did what needed to be done to see the Civil War through to the end. In many ways, he faced similar obstacles to what Bush II has had to on the home front.

3) Teddy Roosevelt - Pretty much the same as every one else posted previously, plus he realized that we deserved a piece of the world stage, and he put us there.

4) Truman - He had the guts to drop the bomb to end WWII and prevent the loss of many US troops. He also formulated the Truman Doctrine which guided the US throughout the Cold War.

5) Reagan - Mainly because I cannot think of any other person to put here. Ended the Cold War, reduced pushed Congress to reduce taxes which lead to the economic expansion of the 80s and 90s.

Worst

1) James Buchanan - Did nothing, but let the state of affairs get worse and worse.

2) FDR - Unline others, as we get further removed from him, the more I think he did to ruin the country. However, he was a popular president at the time. However, he mortgaged the future with Social Security, thereby laying the foundation for the Welfare/Entitlement State. Also, his failure to side with Churchill at many of the later meetings of the Big 3 during WWII gave away much of what we had fought for, and laid the foundation for the Cold War, since he did not realize that Russia and the West were only allies of expediency.

3) Harding - Another do nothing, but he had scandal after scandal during his term.

Second tier of the best (in no particular order)
1) James Polk
2) Jefferson
3) Jackson
4) Kennedy
5) Nixon

What similar obstacles have Lincoln and W. faced on the home front?

No doubt Truman was a very good President, but it is very debatable that the dropping of the nukes on Japan "ended WWII." Many agree that the nukes on Japan were not needed, because we had already practically won the war.

Reagan: How did he end the Cold War? He was a factor in ending it, but certainly did not do it by himself. There were a combination of factors that lead to the end of the Cold War. Also he did help create an economic expansion, but at the cost of raising the deficit by $2 trillion. Also those "large tax cuts" were in actuality just the shifting of the tax burden to Corporations.

[Dutch]

It makes the U.S. history buff in me proud to see that other people know and understand that the Civil War was not really about slavery, but was more about economics.

I guess I am still confused as to what economic issue sparked the confererate states to withdrawal from the union when Lincoln won the election.

[lcjjdnh]

I guess I am still confused as to what economic issue sparked the confererate states to withdrawal from the union when Lincoln won the election.For years, the Southerners were very upset with the high tariff the northeastern businessmen were able to keep inenacted. Because of the high tariff, the South could not really import goods and countries reciprocated with high tariffs, meaning the South could not export their cotton, tobacco, etc. This forced them to have to deal only with northern manufacturers and merchants who knew they had to the South in a bad position. The high tariff almost caused South Carolina to secede from the Union during Jackson's presidency. John Calhoun actually resigned as as Vice President to take over a Senate position in South Carolina so he could fight the tariff. Calhoun tried to use nullification, the concept that a state could rule any act of congress unconstitutional but Jackson soonefd threatened the use of force but eventually thanks to Henry Clay a compromise was worked out. Just as an example of how high the tariff was, it was still only reduced to 20% after nine years.

This also leads to another question. Although never elected, how do you think Clay would have faired a president. He was the "great compromiser" and probably could have been a very efficient president.

[Buccaneer]

I obviously love Civil War debates so here was my take:

http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/showthread.php?t=5688

As far as 5 best/3 worst without comment:

Washington
Lincoln
Teddy Roosevelt
Jefferson
Truman
------------
Andrew Johnson
LBJ
Clinton

[TroyF]

Don't remember ever posting in the first thread, but my guys would be:

Best:

Washington---Being the first wasn't easy. He helped set the tone.

Lincoln---Held the country together.

Truman---One of the most difficult decisions any president had to make.

Worst:

Nixon---This guy destroyed any faith Americans had in their politicians. He also single handedly helped create the media in its current form.

Carter---Nice guy, good intentions. . . horrilbe results.

Andrew Johnson---Yuk.

[Dutch]

Bucc,

I never read that before. That was a very well written, informative read. Thanks.

The bottom line is that we cannot say the Civil War was fought to free the slaves. We can also not say slavery had nothing or even very little to do with the war.

By all accounts, slavery was at the epicenter of the political and economically charged split.

[Dutch]

BTW, Teddy Roosevelt was my favourite President. He was an absolutely fascinating man. He was hyper-active until the day he died (and it's a miracle in itself that the man lived to be 60 with the way he operated his day to day life).

[ntndeacon]

Best
1. Washington: One thing I have not heard mentioned is the biggest acheivement of his presidency IMHO Giving UP the Presidency. He certainly could have been crowned king if we wanted to go that way or president for life. His willingly giving up power showed that a country could continue with the electoral process beyond just the one man.
2. Jefferson: 2 words...Louisiana Purchase
3. TR He also preserved the country's natural resources. Plus he was instrumental in the peace process of the Russo-Japanese War
4. Lincoln...He would be higher except for his disregard for the Constitution when he thought it neccesary...(Held Maryland's Governor without a writ of Habias Corpus).
5. FDR...getting us out of the Great Depression and leading us through WWII

Worst...
3. Franklin Pierce
2. Warren G. Harding
1. James Buchanan

Pierce and Buchanan for similar reasons..moving the country closer to the civil war... Perhaps I am not giving them enough credit for keeping the country together..(Well at least Pierce) but there are few if any passes for Presidents around the Civil War. Harding at best Chose his cabinet poorly.

I do think Reagan would belong in the next group.