OT: This is getting out of control

[Arles]

Makes me almost scared to have kids in a society like this:

June 7, 2004 — When Chad Taylor noticed his son was apparently experiencing serious side effects from Ritalin prescribed for attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, he decided to take the boy off the medication. Now, he says he may be accused of child abuse.

In February, 12-year-old Daniel began displaying some symptoms that his father suspected were related to the use of Ritalin.

"He was losing weight, wasn't sleeping, wasn't eating," Taylor told ABC News affiliate KOAT-TV in New Mexico. "[He] just wasn't Daniel."

So Taylor took Daniel off Ritalin, against his doctor's wishes. And though Taylor noticed Daniel was sleeping better and his appetite had returned, his teachers complained about the return of his disruptive behavior. Daniel seemed unable to sit still and was inattentive. His teachers ultimately learned that he was no longer taking Ritalin.

School officials reported Daniel's parents to New Mexico's Department of Children, Youth and Families.Then a detective and social worker made a home visit.

"The detective told me if I did not medicate my son, I would be arrested for child abuse and neglect," Taylor said.

A spokesman for New Mexico's Department of Children, Youth and Families told KOAT-TV that they could not comment on the case because of state confidentiality laws. John Francis, a detective for the Rio Rancho Department of Public Safety, said that Taylor was not threatened but told KOAT-TV that parents could be charged in situations like his.

"People can be charged with child abuse, child neglect or various other crimes involving a child," he said.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/Living/US/mental_illness_treatment_kids_040607-1.html

[GrantDawg]

Easy answer: Homeschool.

[Arles]

Or Private school. Either way, I think it may be time for parents to run as far away from public schools as is financially possible.

[RendeR]

While I understand the wishes and needs of protecting children from abuse, the government needs to stay the fuck out of family management.

Medicating your child is NOT a requirement, better living through chemistry may work for some, it doesn't work for others and this child was worse off on the meds than off of them. the teachers need to mind their own business.

Abuse, holy shit....let some teacher pull this shit with me regarding a child and I'll show you some fucking abuse. Teacher abuse.

[rkmsuf]

There are so many missing details from that story it's hard to have much of an opinion.

[CamEdwards]

Glad somebody else saw this. I'm talking about it on my show this afternoon.

[albionmoonlight]

Teachers would rather teach 30 medicated drones than 30 children. They will do whatever they can to "encourage" such medication.

And not to take this too off topic, but this is the exact kind of case where I wish the ACLU would spend its time and energy--instead of some of the manufactured suits that they do take just to cheese off the establishment.

[Arles]

I think it's a crime now-days to be a normal, energetic child. Some of the more successful people I know (one just grad Harvard with honors) were terrors in the classroom in my 4th grade class.

It's really a shame what's happening to the public education system.

[albionmoonlight]

Glad somebody else saw this. I'm talking about it on my show this afternoon.
But Cam, how will you reconcile your love and respect for the public schools in this country with this story ;)

[Ksyrup]

But Cam, how will you reconcile your love and respect for the public schools in this country with this story ;)
I don't know, but I hope it has something to do with guns. :)

[albionmoonlight]

I think it's a crime now-days to be a normal, energetic child. Some of the more successful people I know (one just grad Harvard with honors) were terrors in the classroom in my 4th grade class.

It's really a shame what's happening to the public education system.
I agree.

I was in an invitation only senior seminar at Emory University. Not to brag on myself by putting myself in their number, but the class was a pretty fair cross section of the most intelligent and most motivated students at a top 25 university.

One day before class, we were all talking about what we were like as kids. Almost to a person, we were very active, very curious, very . . . vibrant. I think that we were all, in our own way, terrors to teach. Certainly not ready to be put in a box and made to stay quiet for 7 hours a day five days a week.

I think that if we were all kids today, 1/2 of us would be on Ritalin.

[JonInMiddleGA]

And yet I can't help but feel this is the part that often gets overlooked when these discussions come up.

"... his teachers complained about the return of his disruptive behavior."

So, people get upset when little Johnny/Jane is medicated. But I don't believe Jane/Johnny has any inherrent right to disrupt the learning environment of the rest of the class either.

"He was losing weight, wasn't sleeping, wasn't eating," Taylor told ABC News affiliate KOAT-TV in New Mexico. "[He] just wasn't Daniel." Well, Mr. Taylor, sounds to me like that might be an improvement -- because the original Daniel was a pain in the ass to the rest of the world.

My solution? Medicate or otherwise bring Jane/Johnny under control OR give the school the right to kick Jane/Johnny out of the f'n classroom. The rest of the students in the class have a right to a learning environment that outweighs the right of the disruptive student AFAIC. I'm long past the point of being willing to sacrifice the many for the few, we've done that too long already & it's contributed to a culture of mediocrity that seems to know no end.
You'll find few harsher critics of the public education system in the U.S. than me ... but I find it tough to blame them in cases like this when they've had their hands tied in too many ways/areas.

Note: I know I'm talking about the school system when it may well be the F&CS that people are upset with. But minus the school situation, F&CS doesn't seem likely to have become involved in the first place.

[GrantDawg]

Of course, none of us actually have been in class with this kid or know whether he is so disruptive that he is keeping the other 24-30 kids in his class from learning. Let's all jump to the conclusion that this teacher doesn't want to do his job.

I think that prosection in a case like this is extreme, but if the kid is bveyond control shouldn't there be some alternative for the school (explusion? alternative school)??

[MrBug708]

I was on prozac at one time for ADD and found it made things so much more stressful for me in HS> I went off of it 2 months after being on it and never went back to something that strong. Stop taking meds completely for ADD by Junior year of HS.

[rkmsuf]

Disruptive behavior really needs to be described better. Is it jumping up and down while throwing feces or making armpit farts? The blame pie here hinges on the intial reason for medication and further investigation of why the doctor disagreed with removing the medication in light of the side effects.

[gstelmack]

Sure, the school should have lots of options in dealing with an unruly child. Forcing the parents to medicate the child shouldn't be one of them.

[rkmsuf]

Sure, the school should have lots of options in dealing with an unruly child. Forcing the parents to medicate the child shouldn't be one of them.

It's not the school, it's the detective and New Mexico Department of Children, Youth and Families that is making that determination.

[Arles]

Sure, the school should have lots of options in dealing with an unruly child. Forcing the parents to medicate the child shouldn't be one of them.
Exactly. Maybe send them to the principles office, detention, put them in the corner or even just a nice call to the parents. Of course, no spanking or smacking on the hands with a ruler is allowed. The public school system prefer's to mess with a kid's mind and body chemsitry instead of maybe giving them a small bruise on the hand with a ruler. The latter would simply be too cruel.

[CamEdwards]

But Cam, how will you reconcile your love and respect for the public schools in this country with this story ;)

Heh. Actually, I agree with GrantDawg. If the kid is truly disruptive, then kick him out of school.. but to charge the dad with child abuse?

That's where I agree with you. I'd love for the ACLU to take this case.

And as for you Ksyrup... I'm watching you. :)

Actually, you should watch the show. You might be surprised at the variety of topics we're covering.

[Franklinnoble]

Or Private school. Either way, I think it may be time for parents to run as far away from public schools as is financially possible.
Agreed. The public school system is a bloody mess. I have every intention of sending my youngest to private school (or home schooling him) after I've seen the crap that my oldest has put up with.

[clintl]

As someone who spent quite a lot of time in public school classrooms as a substitute teacher this school year, I can tell you first hand how disruptive some of these kids can be. And they're often very nice kids, but just have no ability to control their disruptive behavior. It really does distract from the other kids' ability to do their work. I don't know what you do with them. I know that Ritalin is probably not right for many of them, but these kids really make classroom management extremely difficult. (And, of course, when there's a substitute, the non-ADHD kids exploit and feed on the disruptions.)

[JonInMiddleGA]

This post provides a good segueway to a couple of points I feel like I should have clarified.

Of course, none of us actually have been in class with this kid or know whether he is so disruptive that he is keeping the other 24-30 kids in his class from learning. Let's all jump to the conclusion that this teacher doesn't want to do his job.
Again, you'd have to work hard to find someone who holds "the education profession" in lower regard overall than me. BUT ... they're in the classroom, I'm not, and I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt absent additional evidence to the contrary.

I think that prosection in a case like this is extreme, but if the kid is bveyond control shouldn't there be some alternative for the school (explusion? alternative school)??
I question whether it really is all that "extreme", but that probably requires at least a little explanation. If the parents were, for example, not getting their kid up in the morning, or otherwise not providing him with an opportunity to be at school, they'd (at least in some areas/states,YMMV) be subject to being charged. So I see litle to no difference in them failing to provide him with the opportunity to be non-disruptive & have at least the opportunity to learn. In other words, if they'd charge the parents for not sending him to school, why on earth wouldn't they charge the parents for sending him to school, only to disrupt the learning environment for the rest of the class?

[clintl]

Exactly. Maybe send them to the principles office, detention, put them in the corner or even just a nice call to the parents.

That kind of stuff doesn't seem to work. Other things that are often done is a timeout spent in another teacher's class or missing recess. I sent one kid to the principal's office in the morning, and to another class to take a test in the afternoon, and I think the principal did make a phone call home. This was after the principal came to the class first thing in the morning (this class had a reputation, especially when there was a substitute), and went over behavior expectations, and promised to treat everyone I said behaved all day to a Taco Bell lunch. And he was STILL disruptive. He just could not control himself. I am absolutely convinced seeing him on two different days that he does not have the ability.

[Franklinnoble]

As someone who spent quite a lot of time in public school classrooms as a substitute teacher this school year, I can tell you first hand how disruptive some of these kids can be. And they're often very nice kids, but just have no ability to control their disruptive behavior. It really does distract from the other kids' ability to do their work. I don't know what you do with them. I know that Ritalin is probably not right for many of them, but these kids really make classroom management extremely difficult. (And, of course, when there's a substitute, the non-ADHD kids exploit and feed on the disruptions.)
How about smaller classrooms instead of doping our kids up?

Or better yet, bring back the "South Park" approach. Smack the kids around a bit and tell them to "Shut up and study!"

Personally, if I found out my kid was being disruptive or stupid in class, I'd expect a phone call from his teacher. Then my kid can expect to have his ass beat when he gets home. Then the teacher can expect that he'll improve his attitude.

Kids are supposed to have short attention spans. They're supposed to be easily distracted, rambunctious, etc., etc. The problem is that we've decided that it's no longer politically correct to have strict discipline, so instead we fuck the kids up with all kinds of meds instead.

[rkmsuf]

How about smaller classrooms instead of doping our kids up?

Or better yet, bring back the "South Park" approach. Smack the kids around a bit and tell them to "Shut up and study!"

Personally, if I found out my kid was being disruptive or stupid in class, I'd expect a phone call from his teacher. Then my kid can expect to have his ass beat when he gets home. Then the teacher can expect that he'll improve his attitude.

Kids are supposed to have short attention spans. They're supposed to be easily distracted, rambunctious, etc., etc. The problem is that we've decided that it's no longer politically correct to have strict discipline, so instead we fuck the kids up with all kinds of meds instead.

Back in Catholic school, fear of the ruler worked wonders. Same was true for fear of the yardstick at home.

[GrantDawg]

How about smaller classrooms instead of doping our kids up?

Or better yet, bring back the "South Park" approach. Smack the kids around a bit and tell them to "Shut up and study!"

Personally, if I found out my kid was being disruptive or stupid in class, I'd expect a phone call from his teacher. Then my kid can expect to have his ass beat when he gets home. Then the teacher can expect that he'll improve his attitude.

Kids are supposed to have short attention spans. They're supposed to be easily distracted, rambunctious, etc., etc. The problem is that we've decided that it's no longer politically correct to have strict discipline, so instead we fuck the kids up with all kinds of meds instead.

And then there are some kids who have parents who work hard to discpline them, teachers that discpline, and have tried everything under the sun to bring their kids under control, yet they cannot. What then, Dr. Spock?

Medication is over used, but it is also sometimes nessecary.

[clintl]

How about smaller classrooms instead of doping our kids up?

Or better yet, bring back the "South Park" approach. Smack the kids around a bit and tell them to "Shut up and study!"

Personally, if I found out my kid was being disruptive or stupid in class, I'd expect a phone call from his teacher. Then my kid can expect to have his ass beat when he gets home. Then the teacher can expect that he'll improve his attitude.

Kids are supposed to have short attention spans. They're supposed to be easily distracted, rambunctious, etc., etc. The problem is that we've decided that it's no longer politically correct to have strict discipline, so instead we fuck the kids up with all kinds of meds instead.

Discipline is not the problem with these kids. It's really easy to tell after you have spent a couple of hours with a class of kids which ones are misbehaving just because they don't want to do the work, or they're having a dispute with a classmate, and which ones have deeper pyschological issues.

[CamEdwards]

and yet somehow society has coped fairly well until now with these types of kids in the classroom.

Either there are more of these kids around than before (in which case, shouldn't we be doing research to figure out why?) or we're too ready to medicate our problems away (my theory).

The fastest growing market for antidepressents are kids 5 and under. You can't tell me that's normal.

[NevStar]

Abuse, holy shit....let some teacher pull this shit with me regarding a child and I'll show you some fucking abuse. Teacher abuse.

My mother is a grade-school teacher. When I was away at college, she once saw a child (who, coincidentally, took Ritalin) with bruises on his arms. She warned the mother, if she saw them again, she was legally required to contact Child Services. The step-father then called her at home that night and said basically what you just said here...maybe throw in a couple more "fucking bitches."

My parents wisely chose to keep this story from me for 3 years, because I would've killed the son-of-a-bitch. I still had to be physically restrained from driving 120 miles to the asshole's new home, when I finally did learn of it.

I don't know everything about this story and refuse to comment on it. It just makes me sick when everyone tries to lump public school teachers in one group as lazy & irresponsible, when they're already getting paid far too little & put up with far too much shit for someone who's such an important figure in our children's lives.

[Blackadar]

Well shit. I'm going to agree (in large part) with JonInMiddleGA, GrantDawg and Cam?

There goes my good liberal card.

Since my wife is a former public school teacher, this sounds like both sides not doing the right thing.

Little Daniel sounds like a little shit and he's disrupting the learning of the other 20 or so kids in his class. Chad, the dad, needs to get a fucking clue and straighten up his kid. If Daniel was bad enough to contact Social Services, he's a pretty horrible kid. They don't do that for normal misbehavior.

The Department of Social Services over-reacted when they even brought up "neglect" and "child abuse". But they should have warned him about expulsion and sticking shitty Daniel in LD (learning disabled) classes as a result.

Now, here's the trouble with the whole thing...

The overall problem is that schools have so little power to discipline or even seperate troublemaking kids that they have no other choice but to contact outside agencies. Those agencies (Social Services and Law Enforcement, generally) have limited scope and the only way they can help the schools is to use thei power granted to them under that limited scope.

So Social Services has no choice but to threaten "child abuse" to help the school. They can't do much else to assist. A law enforcement official would have to threaten arrest and detention to do the same.

My solution: Stick Daniel (the kid) in a straightjacket after he misbehaves. Kick Chad's (the Dad) ass ever time Daniel has to be put in the straightjacket. Case closed. ;)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Well shit. I'm going to agree (in large part) with JonInMiddleGA ...
How do you think I feel? http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

Nice job on your post, you did a much better job of verbalizing my complaint & my feelings than I managed to do myself.

[Arles]

I don't know everything about this story and refuse to comment on it. It just makes me sick when everyone tries to lump public school teachers in one group as lazy & irresponsible, when they're already getting paid far too little & put up with far too much shit for someone who's such an important figure in our children's lives.
Teachers need to have the ability to run their classrooms. And this isn't an option right now. They can't use any kind of physical force or intimidation, have restrictions on when/if they can kick kids out of their class, get little support from administrators when the spectre of a lawsuit exists and are treated like 5-year olds by the districts in how they check in and out of school. Being a public school teacher is hard enough, but there's no need to make it even more tougher by essentially removing any legit manner of discipline from their arsenol.

I think a lot of this is because of the "PC-concepts" now in education. Instead of kicking out a routinely troublesome kid with little parenting and sending him to a more targetted school, administrators leave that kid in the class because they don't want to "give up" on him. So, by sticking with a kid with legit issues, bad parenting and even serious antisocial behavior, they end up hurting the education of the 30 other kids in the class. But, of course, there are fewer kids reassigned in this process and this causes the beauracrats to feel better about themselves at the end of the day - at the expense of the teacher.

[Franklinnoble]

Well shit. I'm going to agree (in large part) with JonInMiddleGA, GrantDawg and Cam?

There goes my good liberal card.

Since my wife is a former public school teacher, this sounds like both sides not doing the right thing.

Little Daniel sounds like a little shit and he's disrupting the learning of the other 20 or so kids in his class. Chad, the dad, needs to get a fucking clue and straighten up his kid. If Daniel was bad enough to contact Social Services, he's a pretty horrible kid. They don't do that for normal misbehavior.

The Department of Social Services over-reacted when they even brought up "neglect" and "child abuse". But they should have warned him about expulsion and sticking shitty Daniel in LD (learning disabled) classes as a result.

Now, here's the trouble with the whole thing...

The overall problem is that schools have so little power to discipline or even seperate troublemaking kids that they have no other choice but to contact outside agencies. Those agencies (Social Services and Law Enforcement, generally) have limited scope and the only way they can help the schools is to use thei power granted to them under that limited scope.

So Social Services has no choice but to threaten "child abuse" to help the school. They can't do much else to assist. A law enforcement official would have to threaten arrest and detention to do the same.

My solution: Stick Daniel (the kid) in a straightjacket after he misbehaves. Kick Chad's (the Dad) ass ever time Daniel has to be put in the straightjacket. Case closed. ;)
Actually, I like your solution. :D

[Blackadar]

How do you think I feel? http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

Nice job on your post, you did a much better job of verbalizing my complaint & my feelings than I managed to do myself.

Thank you, Jon.

We liberals aren't always touchy-feely, politically-correct, mindless diversity drones.

Just most of the time. :)

[clintl]

I'm not saying that I think Ritalin is the answer. I worked with a guy who was put on Ritalin when he was a kid, and said that he felt like he was in a fog most of the time. He was very much against it.

What I am saying is that there are kids out there with real problems that are psychological, and not simply lack of discipline, and that trying to deal with them strictly as a disciplinary problem does not seem to work. I don't have an answer for what does work. I have not spent enough time with them yet to figure it out. But I think there are a number of people who have posted in this thread who are being dismissive of the problem out of ignorance. I have been in enough classrooms now to know that these kids really do exist, and it really can be a significant problem.

[gstelmack]

It's not the school, it's the detective and New Mexico Department of Children, Youth and Families that is making that determination.
The school sent the case to them because of his unruly behavior.

[rkmsuf]

The school sent the case to them because of his unruly behavior.

So? They investigated and concluded neglect, not the school. All the school did was say hey you may want to check this out.

[QuikSand]

There are so many missing details from that story it's hard to have much of an opinion.

How wrong you are!

[gstelmack]

Teachers need to have the ability to run their classrooms. And this isn't an option right now. They can't use any kind of physical force or intimidation, have restrictions on when/if they can kick kids out of their class, get little support from administrators when the spectre of a lawsuit exists and are treated like 5-year olds by the districts in how they check in and out of school. Being a public school teacher is hard enough, but there's no need to make it even more tougher by essentially removing any legit manner of discipline from their arsenol.

I think a lot of this is because of the "PC-concepts" now in education. Instead of kicking out a routinely troublesome kid with little parenting and sending him to a more targetted school, administrators leave that kid in the class because they don't want to "give up" on him. So, by sticking with a kid with legit issues, bad parenting and even serious antisocial behavior, they end up hurting the education of the 30 other kids in the class. But, of course, there are fewer kids reassigned in this process and this causes the beauracrats to feel better about themselves at the end of the day - at the expense of the teacher.
I'll circle this back to the parents. When teachers do try to discipline, parents often get in the way. Try to fail the kid, they yell at the teacher. Try to mark a kid as skipping school, they write a note. Parent pressure whenever kids get disciplined is another factor in administrations not backing the teachers in dealing with the kids.

But I'll stand by my earlier statement: unless the kid is having violence problems and hurting himself or others, disruptive behavior does not mean the kid needs medication. Sure, some kids do, and there are more reasons than violent behavior, but lots of "inattentive" kids are simply bored in school. They aren't being challenged by the classes they are in, and it's often quite difficult to move them to a class where they are (a kid can be brilliant but not test well, and you have to have the test scores to move up...). Bored kids will act up. But you won't see the public school system admit that the kids are bored.

So the kid could be acting up because he has a mental condition (like Cam, I think this is far less common than prescriptions of Ritalin would indicate), the kid could be bored (in which case a more challenging educational environment is in order), the parents could be poor disciplinarians and failing to exercise control, the teacher could be a poor disciplinarian and failing to exercise control, or the kid could just be a little $##$#. But Ritalin is prescribed nowadays for pretty much ALL of these conditions as an easy answer.

[rkmsuf]

How wrong you are!


Ok maybe it's not THAT hard to have an opinion.

[Bonegavel]

Brave New World, anyone?

[panerd]

Thanks JoninmiddleGA! Your earlier response is right on. The lowest level kids all have their advocates (mainly the government) and the higher level kids all have their advocates (society) so who ultimately gets the screw job? How about this schedule I had this year...

1st Hour:Challenge Math (20 students)
2nd Hour:Advanced pre-algebra (18 students)
5th hour:6th grade math, the regular track (28 students)
6th hour: Basic math (7 students)
7th hour: 6th grade math (30 students)
8th hour challenge math(18 students)

Anyone else see a problem here? So this kid was probably in one of those huge classes acting like an asshole. Would I refer him to DFS, no? But the no child left behind type legislation does exactly that. Leaves all of the kids in the middle behind. While we try to save the one problem kid, we lose sight of the other 100 kids whose parents read to them and who give a shit about them. Before you go blaming your local school system how about some blame for the state and federal legislators who have found another area they know nothing about.

[wig]

This guy needs to get the ACLU or someone to sue the shit out of the school for invasion of privacy.

They might not win, but the cost to the school budget may be enough to make them think twice about this next time.

[panerd]

This guy needs to get the ACLU or someone to sue the shit out of the school for invasion of privacy.

They might not win, but the cost to the school budget may be enough to make them think twice about this next time.

That sounds like a real practical solution.

[stevew]

I think this kids mom shouldnt have smoked Pot, drank alcohol, or smoked Cigarettes while she was pregnant.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Thanks JoninmiddleGA! Your earlier response is right on.

While I sincerely appreciate the atta-boy, you hit on something that is one of my biggest pet peeves with the state of "state education" --

and the higher level kids all have their advocates (society)
That's the group that I belief suffers the biggest screw job of all -- the ones with very high end potential.

The treatment I've seen those kids get from the system most often is downright criminal. And whatever positives they do manage to take away from the system is most often the result of a combination of their own inherent drive & their parents willingness to raise as much hell as they can manage. "Society", on the other hand, seems to be quite content with mediocrity :(

[panerd]

While I sincerely appreciate the atta-boy, you hit on something that is one of my biggest pet peeves with the state of "state education" --


That's the group that I belief suffers the biggest screw job of all -- the ones with very high end potential.

The treatment I've seen those kids get from the system most often is downright criminal. And whatever positives they do manage to take away from the system is most often the result of a combination of their own inherent drive & their parents willingness to raise as much hell as they can manage. "Society", on the other hand, seems to be quite content with mediocrity :(

Have to disagree at least in the school systems I have worked in. There are multiple differeniated levels of challenge courses offered and also talented and gifted programs for about any area of study. While the concept of all of these course offerings doesn't bother me (I am with you, every kid should be challeged) the contempt and lack of funding provided to the middle is distressing.

I don't want to speak for your situation because it could be a lot different than it is in Missouri, but there are plenty of parents who are upset with the way their talented kid is being educated at our school. Sometimes the lack of an A on the report card seems to be the only real measure that a lot of these parents have about the success of failure of the public school system to ecuate thier child. Case in point... 7th grade science teacher #1: really makes an effort to challenge every kid. Kid recieves B. Kids tranfers to other science teacher after month long ordeal with parents, administrators, etc. 7th grade science teacher #2: Give worksheets and watches videos. Kid recieves A. Parent saifisfied. I am sure that your situation is different, but you would be amazed at how often challenging their kid is a fancy way of saying "give my kid an A"

[clintl]

The treatment I've seen those kids get from the system most often is downright criminal. And whatever positives they do manage to take away from the system is most often the result of a combination of their own inherent drive & their parents willingness to raise as much hell as they can manage. "Society", on the other hand, seems to be quite content with mediocrity :(

I don't know how things are in Georgia. I would strongly disagree with that statement in regards to my area of California. The districts around here have a special after school program called GATE (Gifted and Talented Education), where the most talented students have the opportunity to get extra, advanced instruction. Every kid gets tested for eligibility, and it is a program that the parents really support and want their kids to be in if they qualify.

[JonInMiddleGA]

re: both panerd & clintl

Indeed, it appears that this is a "YMMV" situation, on a state or even more local basis.

In the particular educational abyss I'm surrounded by, it's all about shifting funds & attention to as many largely hopeless cases as possible ... and to
hell & gone with anyone who has any serious potential at all.

Which is why whatever potential cream this backwater manages to have fall in its lap is landing in larger & larger numbers into a variety of private schools & homeschooling situations.

[MJ4H]

Teachers need to have the ability to run their classrooms. And this isn't an option right now. They can't use any kind of physical force or intimidation, have restrictions on when/if they can kick kids out of their class, get little support from administrators when the spectre of a lawsuit exists and are treated like 5-year olds by the districts in how they check in and out of school. Being a public school teacher is hard enough, but there's no need to make it even more tougher by essentially removing any legit manner of discipline from their arsenol.



It seems like I have the obligation to note that in my school (where I teach), corporal punishment is used, students are removed from classes when they need to be, and teachers get the full backing of the administration on these types of decisions. That said, being a public school teacher is still hard as hell :)

[gstelmack]

re: both panerd & clintl

Indeed, it appears that this is a "YMMV" situation, on a state or even more local basis.

The problem, as I tried to point out above, is that it's not as easy as it seems to get into these programs. There are plenty of gifted kids who could qualify for these programs that don't take standardized tests very well. And these are typically a requirement to get into programs like this. If you don't "test" well, you won't get in, and you'll be stuck.

There are also kids who should be in the middle group but get pigeonholed as "special needs" because they did not hit some bureaucrat's checkpoint. Even if they catch up, they are stuck now, and again not being challenged but can't work their way up out of the hole they are in.

[QuikSand]

There are plenty of gifted kids who could qualify for these programs that don't take standardized tests very well.

Not looking to side track such an enlightened discussion... but this common claim always intrigues me. I wonder if it's true, or just a widespread conception fueled by so many students and parents using it as an excuse.


Back to the regularly schedule diatribes...

[AZSpeechCoach]

Teachers need to have the ability to run their classrooms. And this isn't an option right now. They can't use any kind of physical force or intimidation, have restrictions on when/if they can kick kids out of their class, get little support from administrators when the spectre of a lawsuit exists and are treated like 5-year olds by the districts in how they check in and out of school. Being a public school teacher is hard enough, but there's no need to make it even more tougher by essentially removing any legit manner of discipline from their arsenol.


Dang...I wouldn't want to use physical force or intimidation to manage my classroom. I don't have the stature to be physically intimidating. But, I agree with the rest of the statements. Administrators are so afraid of a lawsuit or bad press that they will bend over backwards to accomodate the parents. For example, I had a student this last year. He was suspended for three days for selling drugs on campus. He caused a disruption in class so bad that I had to get security to remove him. Security found a rolling paper in his ID pouch. He received a 30 minute detention. He told me that his mother would "come down here and kick your ass" if I called home on him again. I reported this to the dean, and was told that "we have to go through due process." It wasn't until he was caught selling drugs on campus again that he was suspended for the rest of the semester.

There are many examples of this. And yet, the teachers are the ones blamed for poor classroom control. I cannot remove the students who are disruptive because that prevents them from their right to education. Many of the disruptive students are already in special education, and the solution is to lower their requirements in my class to make it easier for them to pass, and hopefully take away their frustration which supposedly leads to the disruption. I do get sick of seeing teachers blamed for ALL education ills when a big part of it lies in the laws which put the burden on the school.

Please do not suggest that the answer is for me to begin hitting students. As much as I would like to, it would not work. Most of the students who cause problems are already abused at home. I could do nothing that would compare.

[ISiddiqui]

In the end, it depends on how disruptive this kid is. I'm not sure expulsion is an option because the parents may file an ADA claim against the school, saying they are discriminating based on disability. Threatening to charge child abuse may be the only way. Who knows?

[Solecismic]

I'm sure every child is gifted in some way, but the standardized tests, should, hopefully, be designed in such a way as to identify those children who are most likely to benefit from the faster pace of an advanced class.

As a kid who completely tuned out school except for the rare opportunities to take advanced classes, I feel the public school system is a bit of a mess.

As for Ritalin Boy, I need more details. I was very disruptive at times, and the solution was to make me learn.

As an example, my 5th grade teacher promised me advanced math (algebra, trig) once I finished the regular 5th-grade math book. So the next Monday (in September), I brought her the entire book, finished.

Her response? She found another 5th grade math book. Only larger. Took me two weeks to slog through it.

Her next response? She accused me of cheating, having my parents do the work. So my parents came in and defended me. I ended up excused from having to do math the rest of the year, which did not serve anyone's needs.

I see school as a baby sitter, designed to try and dumb everyone down to a basic level. To me, their perceived need of enforcing Ritalin is just a symptom of their incompetency.

Again, without details. If the kid is violent or has a real mental problem other than boredom, he needs to be removed from the classroom so that the others can learn whatever pathetic scraps the board of education determines fit the lowest common denominator.

[Antmeister]

As I read this article, I have a number of mixed feelings. I agree with JonInMiddleGA when it comes to disrupting the class, but I don't agree that he should be forced to be medicated. It is amazing today that they now have these names for these so called "disorders", but back when I was going to school, he would be considered an unruly brat.

On the other side of the coin, how much control does the parent have these days. If that parent were to discipline his child, he can be called into Child Protective Services. It is strange that someone would be sued for medicating a child, when it is not something that is used to keep him alive. It is simply used to treat this so called "disorder".

There were a number of kid I had known growing up that would have been put on Ritalin today and yet they seem to be doing just fine, but then again they had discipline to straigten them out.

[JonInMiddleGA]

If the kid is violent or has a real mental problem other than boredom, he needs to be removed from the classroom so that the others can learn whatever pathetic scraps the board of education determines fit the lowest common denominator. But therein, at least in my experience, lies a good bit of the rub -- we've continued to diminish the school's ability to remove these problems from the classroom.

It's increasingly difficult to simply expel the problems into the street. Instead, there's a quaqmire of paperwork & steps, including IEP's, "Alternative Schools", and so forth. And each one of those costs money, often serious money -- brick & mortar, staffing, etc., it all adds up.

And at some point, the funding has to come from somewhere. Being that those who do pay property tax are already nearing their pyschological (if not fiscal) breaking point, at some point you begin to disrupt the ability for the mainstream students to learn just as surely as if you had left the troublemakers in the original classroom.

Somewhere in this discussion, I'm reminded of a surprisingly profound comment made in complete candor by a local county commissioner a few years ago. It was in a "leadership development" class that I was in with about 2 dozen other local folks from a variety of backgrounds -- generally speaking, the topic was education, and the local politico basically told the education establishment folks in the room something to this effect -- "Honestly, I'm getting a little tired of the ever diminishing returns we're getting. On the rare occasion you do manage to graduate a kid who has even reasonable potential, they can't get the hell out of here fast enough, never to return. And what we're left with, that stays, are the very ones we wish would go somewhere, anywhere, else. We keep throwing money on the fire and keep getting little to nothing back in return. You're a bad investment that keeps getting worse."

It was stunning in its honesty ... and even more stunning in its brutal accuracy. At the risk of an even further sidetrack, I have to say up front that I don't believe every situation is quite as bad as this one. But you have to realize that I'm talking about a nightmarish situation here -- where the H.S. Valedictorian spends 18 months taking nothing but remedial classes at a state university, where a student who had a C-average through 2+ years of h.s. finishes 9th in her class overall (after she kicked it up a couple of notches for her final year & a half), where petty violence is so commonplace that desks being thrown into the hallway during class doesn't even elicit any sort of curiosity by anyone, where the administration makes sure that the drug dog van is parked in plain sight along the route to the school for a couple of hours before it makes a "surprise" visit lest they catch someone that would be politically unpleasant to bust.

I could go on & on, but I believe you get the picture. The only hope this particular school system may have is that the federal control provisions of NCLBA eventually kick-in. It might not get any better, but I really don't believe it could get any worse here.

[spleen1015]

There are other medications with much lesser effects than Ritalin. I don't know why folks don't give them a shot. Ritalin is always mentioned as the bad drug for these kids. How come the doctors aren't looking at these others?

Adderall

Stratera - Not a stimulant

[clintl]

I see school as a baby sitter, designed to try and dumb everyone down to a basic level. To me, their perceived need of enforcing Ritalin is just a symptom of their incompetency.



Things have changed, Jim, at least where I live. Curriculum standards have been raised, and kids are often doing work a year or more earlier than back when I was in school. Kindergartners are basically doing what used to be done in the first grade. My niece, who is just finishing the fourth grade, was introduced to some algebra this year. Kids typically have a homework package that can take several hours each night. There is no "dumbing down" going on compared to when I was in school that I can see, either from what my niece is doing or from what I'm seeing in the curriculum that I'm exposed to as a substitute teacher. They are being expected to do and learn more, not less.

Now, there are certainly some very bright students who are not being as challenged as the rest, but that's always going to be the case. FWIW, I find that the really bright students rarely cause discipline problems because even if they do finish early, they will find something else productive to do if you give them some suggestions and choices.

[panerd]

Not looking to side track such an enlightened discussion... but this common claim always intrigues me. I wonder if it's true, or just a widespread conception fueled by so many students and parents using it as an excuse.


Back to the regularly schedule diatribes...

Bingo. Everything is different when it is yours. Someone else's piece of crap house becomes a fixer upper. A pathetic job with no potential is what you have to do to keep food on the table. Same goes with kids. A bratty obnoxious, spoiled kid becomes a kid who isn't being challenged. A kid who has been misplaced at too high a level of math (I will speak from my area of expertise) just doesn't test well. A quiet, shy kid has a verbal communication IEP.

I believe every kid is special in their own way. Parents can always see those areas where there kid has talent. But to blame education or the testing system for failing to identify a talent that nobody else recongnizes is pretty absurd. Don't even get my started on high school sports.

[gstelmack]

I believe every kid is special in their own way. Parents can always see those areas where there kid has talent. But to blame education or the testing system for failing to identify a talent that nobody else recongnizes is pretty absurd. Don't even get my started on high school sports.I've seen cases where people do recognize it, but the rules are "you've got to pass the test with this score to get in." Petty bureaucracy at its finest. They have one yardstick and that's it. Public education is all about the common denominator.

To me reliance on standardized tests is a complete joke, for 2 reasons:

1) Standardized tests test your ability to take tests, not your knowledge. I've aced one of the SAT subject matter tests (biology) by guessing on 50% of the questions. In most cases I was able to eliminate an answer or two, but the point was it was my ability to make intelligent guesses that got me through the test, not my knowledge of the subject being tested.

2) Now that they are being used to rank schools, public schools are spending more and more time teaching to the tests and less time teaching the subject matter. The tests can only represent a subset of the taught subject, so kids focus on that subset and ignore other key educational goals.

[sabotai]

Not looking to side track such an enlightened discussion... but this common claim always intrigues me. I wonder if it's true, or just a widespread conception fueled by so many students and parents using it as an excuse.

FWIW, I, for one, never did well on standardized tests (or most other tests for that matter), but pretty much excelled in everything else. I doubt I'm the only one. (Although I do think many people use it as an excuse as well).

[wig]

The fact that you can take a course on test-taking, is all the reason you need to hate standardized tests.

[Buzzbee]

Things have changed, Jim, at least where I live. Curriculum standards have been raised, and kids are often doing work a year or more earlier than back when I was in school. Kindergartners are basically doing what used to be done in the first grade. My niece, who is just finishing the fourth grade, was introduced to some algebra this year. Kids typically have a homework package that can take several hours each night. There is no "dumbing down" going on compared to when I was in school that I can see, either from what my niece is doing or from what I'm seeing in the curriculum that I'm exposed to as a substitute teacher. They are being expected to do and learn more, not less.

Now, there are certainly some very bright students who are not being as challenged as the rest, but that's always going to be the case. FWIW, I find that the really bright students rarely cause discipline problems because even if they do finish early, they will find something else productive to do if you give them some suggestions and choices.

Just because a student is exposed to algebra in the 4th grade doesn't necessarily mean that they are learning more, not less. What I have found is that in many cases they kids are being taught things earlier, but not in as much depth. In other words, they are being taught general concepts and ideas, but aren't spending any time re-inforcing what they've been taught. The result, they rush through and are studying calculus in middle school, but forget the basic algebra or geometry that the "studied" the previous year. It's kind of like reading headlines rather than reading the full article. Or Cliff's notes instead of the book. It'll get you by, but you don't get the full experience.

[Buzzbee]

I've seen cases where people do recognize it, but the rules are "you've got to pass the test with this score to get in." Petty bureaucracy at its finest. They have one yardstick and that's it. Public education is all about the common denominator.

To me reliance on standardized tests is a complete joke, for 2 reasons:

1) Standardized tests test your ability to take tests, not your knowledge. I've aced one of the SAT subject matter tests (biology) by guessing on 50% of the questions. In most cases I was able to eliminate an answer or two, but the point was it was my ability to make intelligent guesses that got me through the test, not my knowledge of the subject being tested.

Some would argue that your knowledge of the subject allowed you to eliminate an answer or two, and your knowledge allowed you to make "intelligent guesses" as opposed to randomly choosing A, B, C or D.

As for standardized tests testing your ability to take tests, that is hogwash. If I give you a test on the meaning of Egyptian Heiroglyphs, your "ability to take tests" will have a minimal impact (assuming you know very little about Egyptian Heiroglyphs). Can you improve your scores by knowing how to take tests? Absolutely. But you have to have some foundation of knowledge in order to take advantage of those techniques.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a huge fan of standardized tests but to call them a complete joke is a little extreme.


2) Now that they are being used to rank schools, public schools are spending more and more time teaching to the tests and less time teaching the subject matter. The tests can only represent a subset of the taught subject, so kids focus on that subset and ignore other key educational goals.

I agree with this completely and have seen it at work. The elementary school where my daughter attends was at the lower end in regard to reading scores. The result, a big push on reading programs and a focus in the classrooms on reading. They have bumped up their reading scores, but now they are having to do the same with math due to neglegct caused by the focus on reading.

[Abe Sargent]

I felt left behind in our public education system as a very bright child of a poor family. In Math Field Day, which began in 4th grade, I won first prize for our county. I won first every subsequent year that I was in the contest through 8th grade. I was considered a child progeny, the smartest kid in the county. I frequently scored better on the same test than did the students one and two grades ahead of me, and they were the best in their class. When I went to regionals, I completed against the wealthiest county in the state.

In fourth grade, I scored fourth in regionals. In fifth grades, I was a close 5th, in sixth and seventh, I was farther down. In eighth, even farther down. The school made an exception for me and put me in accelerated math programs, although my Junior High would not let me into Algebra in 7th grade because that was an 8th grade course.

After 8th grade, my dad took a new job in that county that is the wealthiest. I transfereed schools to the best in the county. The top people there were THREE MATH CLASSES ahead of me, when I was two ahead of the average already. No way Boone County prepared me for that. I wasn't even in the top 50 people in our school in math. I firmly believe that is because our school system did not allow me the opportunity to reach my potential as early as I could have.

We had no gifted classes, they were phased out by an impoverished school system in one of the poorest states in the union.

I honestly believe that I was left behind. I was in classes where the subject matter was way below my level, like Reading and Literature. I am reading Shakespeare and Dante on the side in 7th grade, but still reading children's books like Where the Red Fern Grows in class? How sad.

There are a lot of issues I take with public education. I believe that they stress foreign languages and sciences way too much. I wanted to be a writer, so my counselor in the rich county sent me to Chemistry, Physics and Biology classes? Few electives are ever offered in the social sciences in public education - it is truly sad.


But of the issues that I take, this was the most severe. That as a smart kid, there was nothing for me. I saw fellow smart kids act up, because we were bored. I am glad that our fifth grade teacher let a few smart kids like me in the back of the class play D&D after we had finished our work in ten minutes, that was very intellectual. I witnessed fellow smart kids get left behind, eventually getting so frustrated with a dumbed down educational system that they got poorer and poorer grades until no one thought of them as smart, anymore.

It was sad.


-Anxiety

[clintl]

From what I've seen, I don't think that's happening in the district where I'm subbing, and since I'm subbing at every level from K-12, I get to see a pretty broad spectrum of the curriculum. I don't know about my niece's district, because I haven't seen her textbooks first hand. So you could have a point there. I have a hard time believing that they're not getting adequate reinforcement of the concepts, though, given how much homework they're doing.

[Buzzbee]

From what I've seen, I don't think that's happening in the district where I'm subbing, and since I'm subbing at every level from K-12, I get to see a pretty broad spectrum of the curriculum. I don't know about my niece's district, because I haven't seen her textbooks first hand. So you could have a point there. I have a hard time believing that they're not getting adequate reinforcement of the concepts, though, given how much homework they're doing.

I think that is probably a regional/state/local difference. I'm sure there are schools and school districts out there who are doing a good job of educating students and balancing the curriculum. It sounds as if you are fortunate to be in one of those schools/systems. However, I believe that in general that is not the case.

And bringing this back to some of the points raised earlier, many of the kids end up not having any "home" work because they finish it at school. Usually it isn't challenging enough for them because it has to be dumbed down for the "lowest common denominator" as Jim mentioned.

[Glengoyne]

.... There are plenty of gifted kids who could qualify for these programs that don't take standardized tests very well. ...

I think QS is right to bring up the "excuse" theory.

If you can't take a test you ain't that gifted. If you can't test someone, you can't measure their ability. You can't very well measure someone's ability if you try to design measuring criteria you know they will excell at. I am a big fan of standardized testing. I can think of a few that very clearly weed out the wheat from the chaff so to speak. The Cbest for example has prevented at least two morons I know from teaching our children in public schools. Their spouses complain about how they don't test well. I know them...I know they have no business teaching children.

[sabotai]

There are plenty of ways to measure someone's ability than just sitting them at a desk and having them take a standarized test.

[sterlingice]

Great thread!! I started reading and I figured this would devolve into a lot of the typical "you're wrong" "no, you're wrong" but instead, it's remained civil and it's been a great read. :)

SI

[bigdawg2003]

I don't plan on having kids for a very long time, but based on these kind of things I read and my own public school experiences, I can't imagine sending my kids to these robot factories we call public schools.

[clintl]

The Cbest for example has prevented at least two morons I know from teaching our children in public schools. Their spouses complain about how they don't test well. I know them...I know they have no business teaching children.

If you can't pass the CBest, you definitely don't belong in the classroom. That test is almost too easy.

[GrantDawg]

I don't plan on having kids for a very long time, but based on these kind of things I read and my own public school experiences, I can't imagine sending my kids to these robot factories we call public schools.
Not all schools, and not even every school in a district. My daughter goes to a great school that grades out well above the national average. She has had some great teachers and we have really enjoyed working with the adminstration.

Now, if we lived a half-mile down the street, she would be going to a bad school that is currently on probation (well, techincally she would, but we'd probably homeschool; and no, I wouldn't teach spelling :)).

[panerd]

2) Now that they are being used to rank schools, public schools are spending more and more time teaching to the tests and less time teaching the subject matter. The tests can only represent a subset of the taught subject, so kids focus on that subset and ignore other key educational goals.

Not to turn this political, because both the Repubs and Democrats are equally responsable. But if you want to know who to blame for this, be careful before you go after the schools and their worthless teachers. The whole basis of "No Child Left Behind" is standardized test scores. So if a school teaches to the test they are "rewarded" with more federal money.

Fortunatly I work in a district and at a school that sees that huge fallacy in not preparing kids for life just to appease the legeslators. But I put no faith in any state or federal legislators to ever truly understand education. And I feel if they ever did quit sticking their noses in with all of their quick fix solutions (If a school doesn't show x% improvement than all the kids can go to another school! Gee vouchers are a wonderful idea! Wait a second, what if all of the schools just start teaching to standardized tests to aviod being labeled as a failing school? That wouldn't happen would it?) we wouldn't have threads where 75% of the posters are bashing public education.

EDIT: Tried to correct major spelling and grammer errors

[JonInMiddleGA]

Wait a second, what if all of the schools just start teaching to standardized tests to aviod being labeled as a failing school?
If the standardized tests cover grade-level appropriate material, and if the tests cover the bases fully ...

That wouldn't happen would it?
I sure as hell hope so.

(Now, as to what I think of the chances of that happening as long as individual states maintain the ability to determine what the standards are ...)

[finkenst]

As an example, my 5th grade teacher promised me advanced math (algebra, trig) once I finished the regular 5th-grade math book. So the next Monday (in September), I brought her the entire book, finished.

Her response? She found another 5th grade math book. Only larger. Took me two weeks to slog through it.

This sounds familiar. I think i lucked out in 4th grade that our school used the iowa tests of basic skills as a yard stick every 2 years (2,4,6,8th grades)... my math was pretty high and i was allowed to progress at my own pace through 4-8th grade maths... teacher had no problem with it, i don't think cheating ever came up, but like everything else YMMV...

...

Unfortunately, it's not always better at private schools than public schools. My sister teaches high school math and she gets kids from the same school that she wonders how they made it past 6th grade math. "No kid left behind" is a nightmare to school systems as an unfunded mandate from the federal government.

anyways, back to the regular stuff.

[Leonidas]

We are going some of this stuff with my own son. He was speech delayed, so we had to jump through tons of hoops just to get him qualified for speech therapy. We saw several different social workers, speech pathologists, etc. And every now and then one of them would start leaning down the ADD path or say he appeared hyper active. He's just an energetic 3 year old for God's sake. When he meets new people he gets excited. We try explaining this and they give us a look and start writing crap down. One social worker started asking how we disciplined him. I could see where that was leading.

So we wind up torn between wanting to get our kid help and considering dropping the issue entirely for fear these idiots will mark him for ADD or say he's hyperactive or something worse. It's pretty scary when you really start dealing with these people and see just how clueless they really are at diagnosing a kid. Hell, we needed an official diagnosis from our pediatrician and basically told her what to say word for word so we could get the treatment. She never even examined him, just wrote down what our insurance folks told us needed to be on the document. It's nuts.

[Franklinnoble]

We are going some of this stuff with my own son. He was speech delayed, so we had to jump through tons of hoops just to get him qualified for speech therapy. We saw several different social works, speech pathologists, etc. And every now and then one of them would start leaning down the ADD path or say he appeared hyper active. He's just an energetic 3 year old for God's sake. When he meets new people he gets excited. We try explaining this and they give us a look and start writing crap down. On social worker started asking how we disciplined him. I could see where that was leading.

So we wind up torn between wanting to get our kid help and considering dropping the issue entirely for fear these idiots will mark him for ADD or say he's hyperactive or something worse. It's pretty scary when you really start dealing with these people and see just how clueless they really are at diagnosing a kid. Hell, we needed an official diagnosis from our pediatrician and basically told her what to say word for word so we could get the treatment. She never even examined him, just wrote down what our insurance folks told us needed to be on the document. It's nuts.
Word for word, that's almost exactly what happened to my 15 yo stepson.

The system sucks. As I said earlier, I'm putting the young'n in a private school.

[sterlingice]

After reading this thread, I'm almost thoroughly convinced I want my kid to be in a private school unless things change between now and when I have kids. I went to a private school most of my life but went to a public school some as well. I'm thinking private school through 5th-ish grade and then middle and high school for public school. Private schools are not without fault as most kids in the private school had real attitude problems as well, tho theirs were more of an elitism and a lack of respect for others.

SI

[Driftwood]

.

I believe every kid is special in their own way.


So were Dylan Klebod and Eric Harris...doen`t mean I want them in the same class as my 2 kids...

[panerd]

If the standardized tests cover grade-level appropriate material, and if the tests cover the bases fully ...


I sure as hell hope so.

(Now, as to what I think of the chances of that happening as long as individual states maintain the ability to determine what the standards are ...)

At least we have gone back to being on opposite sides of the spectrum. :)

About 50 posts ago you were complaining that your local district doesn't challenge the bright kids. But now you are in favor of a cookie cutter curriculum that whores itself to state & national standards. I've got news for you the national & state standards are not the least bit challenging for your bright students. And the reality is that most districts are gearing up their bright kids to ace these tests so that the kids that don't do as well don't effect their schools average. (Meaning drill & kill practice for your talented & gifted instead of an enriching and challenging education and the lower level kids being force fed problems that they don't understand) Like I said, I don't work in a district that does this, but I see many city schools that do. And I am finding it harder and harder to argue when my friends at those schools show me new federal & state mandates of not leaving any kids behind. Blame it on the schools if you want, but that is pretty short sighted if you ask me.

In my opinion you leave a few kids behind and get the majority of your students excelling in their areas of expertise.

[panerd]

So were Dylan Klebod and Eric Harris... I want them in the same class as my 2 kids...

See I can selectively quote your message also. I believe the next sentence you edited out explains exactly how I truly feel about how talented every kid is.

[panerd]

After reading this thread, I'm almost thoroughly convinced I want my kid to be in a private school unless things change between now and when I have kids. I went to a private school most of my life but went to a public school some as well. I'm thinking private school through 5th-ish grade and then middle and high school for public school. Private schools are not without fault as most kids in the private school had real attitude problems as well, tho theirs were more of an elitism and a lack of respect for others.

SI

Wait until a kid like John Kerry Jr. (the example meaning a kid from money or fame, not John Kerry's actual kid) attends your kids school and is a real asshole. At least the public schools will attempt to deal with the kid. Private schools... "Thanks for the new gymnasium. It is such a treat to have your child at our school!"

[Driftwood]

My wife is a teacher, and pretty much the only reason I bothered enough to register and make a few points:

1) Most of you have no idea what goes on in the classroom nowadays. You don`t understand that for the most part, parents have given up parenting and expect the schools to do that for them--but try being a parent if the child knows you have no real power over them, and when every instance of real discipline has to be backed up with paperwork, consultations, and compromises. She has tried to lay down the law many a time only to have the parent come in and say `Im dont want you keeping my son after school to clean desks. And furthermore, I failed to see the purpose in making my daughter write a report on why hitting is wrong.` There is very little backing up from either the parents side, or the administration side--which, for the most part--is filled with ex teachers who couldnt handle it in the classroom.

2) Private schools have many of the same problems that public schools have...drugs...disruptive students....fights....etc. The only difference is that in a private school, the parents are involved. Hell, theyre paying a crap-load of money, and, for the most part, parents who send their kids to private schools actually CARE about their kids. What really pisses me off is this whole notion that many people have that public schools are failing the kids and that its out of control. Its PUBLIC SCHOOL PARENTS who are the failures, and they are raising public-school kids to be problems too. Teachers who teach in private school are not required to get all the training and certification that public teachers are required to get. Ive seen a private school up close and worked in a public one. The teachers arent any better in a private school--the parents are better, and theyre raising better kids. Full stop.

3) There is no 3....for now

[JonInMiddleGA]

At least we have gone back to being on opposite sides of the spectrum. :)
And yet we still agree on some of the realities.

I do favor state (and national) standards. Where I separate from the current plan is that I believe the standards are currently too low, sometimes embarrassingly so.

The option, however (at least as long as school choice and/or privitization isn't a reality) is the zero accountability system that left Georgia schools in their current sorry condition.

_IF_ the tests cover the curriculum, and _IF_ the curriculum standards are adequate, then I've got no real problem with "teaching the tests" -- at that point, they're the same thing. No, I wouldn't even begin to argue that this is where we are currently, but I believe it's a very worthwhile goal.

The exceptional high end kids should be identified, pushed to their limits, that would ensure that they still outperform the bulk of the bell curve.
I'm just hoping to find a way to raise the level of the middle of the pack along the way.

As for using the best & brightest to ace the test, that method really wouldn't work around here -- those capable of acing the material right now are so outnumbered that they couldn't have that sort of impact over the long haul, even if they wanted to http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/frown.gif

Where we really differ I guess, is on the subject of whether reforms such as NCLBA mark an improvement in the situation -- you think not I'm pretty sure, while I think almost anything would be better than the current mess.

[clintl]

2) Private schools have many of the same problems that public schools have...drugs...disruptive students....fights....etc. The only difference is that in a private school, the parents are involved. Hell, theyre paying a crap-load of money, and, for the most part, parents who send their kids to private schools actually CARE about their kids. What really pisses me off is this whole notion that many people have that public schools are failing the kids and that its out of control. Its PUBLIC SCHOOL PARENTS who are the failures, and they are raising public-school kids to be problems too. Teachers who teach in private school are not required to get all the training and certification that public teachers are required to get. Ive seen a private school up close and worked in a public one. The teachers arent any better in a private school--the parents are better, and theyre raising better kids. Full stop.

3) There is no 3....for now

I think Driftwood has hit on the key issue here. The two top predictors of academic success are the socioeconomic status of the parents, and parental involvement. The city I live in, Davis, (which is NOT where I sub) has a great school system. Test scores are almost always the best in the Sacramento region. And one distinguishing characteristic I see in Davis compared to other places I have live is the degree to which parents are involved in the childrens' activities. It far exceeds the norm. The other big distinguishing characteristic is that the population is very well educated, and there is a strong cultural commitment to education, and high expectations for the students. It IS possible to have a great public school system.

[lcjjdnh]

I'm actually going to disagree with the previous comments about not enough advanced courses in public schools and actually argue that we allow parents too much freedom in advancing kids and this is what actually is bringing the system down. In my public high school a big part of the problem is that every parent is too protective of their children and think that they're children always deserve an A and should be in the top classes, etc. I realize parents are obviously going to look out for the children's needs but these kids are bringing down the top level classes. For instance my school has basically three levels which my history teacher describes as such:
College Prep-kids who don't read or take notes
Honors-Kids who take notes but don't read
AP-kids who read and take notes
That's just for history but you can pretty much apply it to all the other subjects. Now for the purposes of class rank, we weight these courses so that your GPA gets a boost if you take an upper level class, supposedly to compensate for the difficulty. This would lead one to assume an A is hard to obtain in an AP class but in reality it is the contrary. We had our AP English teacher last year, who never get a grade lower than a B+ and basically said he never would because if he ever did, parents would complain that their "AP student" does not deserve a B or C. People don't realize that really a C is average, but an AP class, which is a college level course, that should be a good grade.

The other problem is that because of this and parents thinking their kid is the best, it means a ton of people try to get into these AP classes, which leads to a problem because these classes have to:
A)be taught a college level
B)be finished by the first week of May, where as the material in a regular class in my school would not be finished until the end of June
With 25 kids an AP class, this is pretty tough. The problem is any parent can say they want their kid in an AP class and their in. In a school of 500 kids, about 125 per class, should 25 kids from one grade, over 20% of a class, be taking AP US History. And this has happened for years at my school and every year teachers complain this is an unmanagable number for an AP class but administrators say if parents want it, they have to give it to them. Or take for instance by AP Government class. There are two classes of it, with 25 kids each, or roughly 10% of the school. This class should move quickly through basic concepts but their are kids who just shouldn't be in the class in the class. I mean we spent days discussing basic concepts about the Constitution that they should have know. There are various Supreme Court cases which someone in AP Government should probably know or be able to grasp quickly but we managed to take a month discussing Marbury v Madison, McCollough v Maryland, Dred Scot decision, etc. At least 75% of the time spent in that class was spent trying to teach kids stuff we learned in US History when there was much more to learn that is not covered in history. Both my Math and Chemistry classes were held back by kids who really should not have been in the class and would have been better served in an Honors course but of course the administrations hands were tied. I have no problem with kids trying to challenge themselves but parents should be realistic, there's a point where trying to challenge yourself just slows down everyone else. There's only so long we can sit there while someone tries to grasp the concept of converting moles to gram to moles or finding the intergral of 2x-3.

I'm sorry for the rant but this is pretty much what I've discovered in my four years of public high school and although most of these courses were good I feel they could have been better.

[WussGawd]

While I understand the wishes and needs of protecting children from abuse, the government needs to stay the fuck out of family management.

Medicating your child is NOT a requirement, better living through chemistry may work for some, it doesn't work for others and this child was worse off on the meds than off of them. the teachers need to mind their own business.

Abuse, holy shit....let some teacher pull this shit with me regarding a child and I'll show you some fucking abuse. Teacher abuse.

Gee, thanks for the considered thoughtful opinion...and from the original post, it appears that the child *was* disruptive in the classroom, and any good psychiatrist will tell you that you don't take a child off of meds like ritalin, or prozac, or depakote, or risperdal, or any of the other psychotropic meds, cold turkey. How do I know this? I have a special needs kid, who frankly, we had to change out medications on (with the doctor's guidance) a couple of times before we got things right.

So yes, depending on the circumstances, this parent absolutely *could* be guilty of abuse, depending on the circumstances. Particularly when you consider that the teacher *and* the psychiatrist have to serve as an advocate for the child. After all, the child, not the parent, is the patient here.

Personally, I'd want to know more before I made a snap judgment one way or the other about who bears the blame (though I'm inclined to believe the parent is at least partly to blame).

But fine, blame the public school system. It's obviously the school's fault, not the parent. :rolleyes: