winger training?

[saintjo]

ok, its the end of the season and i always end up questioning why i train defense. last year i considered switching to keeper training, but it just doesnt seem interesting to me. so this year i am considering switching to winger training, but i just dont see how to make really good money at it. i know there are some winger trainers in here, any insight?
i figure i would buy young-ish ex-playmaking trainees with at least solid playmaking and stanima and a few young solid defenders so they have great secondaries. but what are the turn around prices on them? or is there a better way to make money on them?
i am just frustrated with defense since its 8 weeks and i am only able to train 8 players because of playing 3-5-2 in league matches. the idea of 5 week training times and the max number of trainees no matter what formation and that only 5% of the people in the USA train it are all very appealing. but i am making some descent money right now on defense. its around a million per player every 24-32 weeks. if i started training them past formidable it would be even higher on a per week average. think winger training can keep up with that?

[One_to7]

1 million every 24-32 weeks? Try buying 18 year old solids, especially fresh pulls. They'll be formidable within 16 weeks, and you'll still have their whole 19th year to train em. You'll pay a bit more for them, but the return's good. Plus, once they reach formidable, if you're ever need to improve immediately, you've got someone you can unload for a good amount of money.

Having a defense heavy team sucks. Horribly. It's much worse than being offense heavy or midfield heavy. But once you sell your initial trainees, it's possible to build a balanced team, even with a 5 man backline. With 10 trainees, you'll have someone to offload basically whenever you want if you need money, you'll have plenty of options based on their secondaries and form, and you also only have 6 other positions on the field to upgrade, meaning you can spend more per position. That said, I'll still be going with a 4 man backline for the rest of this season and I get settled into V.

[daedalus]

I don't know about all that since I don't sell them that often. The one thing I'd say is I wouldn't touch anyone without secondaries with a 10-foot pole.

[Poli]

I wouldn't touch any winger without secondaries with The Afoci's pole.

[Carligula]

I'm training winger but haven't sold any yet, so I have nothing much to offer, but all you people who are looking for secondaries - do you notice them making that much difference on the field? The folks in the winger fed say there's a huge jump in sale price with Inad PM, and another huge jump at Passable PM. That seems unjustifiable to me - do two levels of PM as a non-primary skill really matter?

Of course it may be that no one buys wingers but PM trainers who want to fill up their half-slots... :(

[larrymcg421]

Train Scoring

[Tellistto]

I'm training winger but haven't sold any yet, so I have nothing much to offer, but all you people who are looking for secondaries - do you notice them making that much difference on the field? The folks in the winger fed say there's a huge jump in sale price with Inad PM, and another huge jump at Passable PM. That seems unjustifiable to me - do two levels of PM as a non-primary skill really matter?

Of course it may be that no one buys wingers but PM trainers who want to fill up their half-slots... :(
Wing to Middle uses more PM and less winger, that's the main reason I would think PM is so valued.

Tell

[daedalus]

I'm training winger but haven't sold any yet, so I have nothing much to offer, but all you people who are looking for secondaries - do you notice them making that much difference on the field? The folks in the winger fed say there's a huge jump in sale price with Inad PM, and another huge jump at Passable PM. That seems unjustifiable to me - do two levels of PM as a non-primary skill really matter?Two different issues, really.

One, can a jump in a secondary skill really make that much of a difference? Because of the importance of midfield, yes. Without being a playmaking trainer with some HIGH level midfielders, I wouldn't dare playing without my possession wingers. They make a big difference for my team. If you look at the normal order of who contributes to midfield play, your wingers' playmaking is the only other contributor besides the inner midfielders. (Offensive defenders and defensive forwards add some as well.)

Two, does the bump to inadequate and passable in playmaking really make a difference in sales? Most definitely. It's more perception than anything else since an inadequate+1 is not really much better than a weak+7. But in a situation where the amount of money you get is based on what the buyer is willing to pay, their perception is vitally important. A lack of certain secondaries will really hurt your eventual take.

[daedalus]

Wing to Middle uses more PM and less winger, that's the main reason I would think PM is so valued.I'm of the opinion that playmaking is so valued because of its importance of midfield within the game engine and the fact that wingers are the only other contributor to midfield strength besides the obvious middle infielders. Easiest way to think of the "Toward Middle" instruction is that it gives a bonus to the playmaking skill and penalizes the winger skill of that player. Even if you had play your winger "Offensive", he would STILL contribute to your midfield strength. However much or little he is able to.

[sterlingice]

I don't know about all that since I don't sell them that often. The one thing I'd say is I wouldn't touch anyone without secondaries with a 10-foot pole. I think this is a horrible misconception depending on what level you are training to. I'm thinking more and more that I don't care about middies with secondaries since I'm training beyond formidable. For lower levels, it matters but the higher and higher levels you go, there are less and less buyers so they will take what they can get. In other words, the higher level markets are driven by buyers thinking "is there a world class middie out there" versus lower levels where you say things like "is there an excellent middie with passable passing or should I try for a formidable middie with weak passing". You're hoping at the lower levels to have people who put a high price on secondaries but at higher levels, you're just hoping to find a buyer.

Note, what I mean is that I won't pay an extra $500K for a middie because they have passable passing rather than weak passing. No one puts a premium on weak secondaries (except maybe weak passing on strikers) so they can be had for no added premium over a, say, disastrous. However, if I see two players up for sale: one at $4.5M for a world class with poor passing and one at $4.9M for a world class with passable passing, there's no way I spend the extra $400K.

Because of this, if you know your team is set in their ways (i.e. I know what I'm training and how long I'll be training) then the secondaries don't matter because you are paying premiums for stuff that doesn't add value to your sales. Ok, so if that doesn't make sense because it's kindof convoluded, here's the simplified version: if you are buying guys at excellent and formidable to train, you're paying a lot extra for those secondaries, but when you are selling guys at much higher levels than that, the buyer doesn't care that much about secondaries so you're paying a lot of cash for no return.

Granted, this is only true for middie and defense trainees. Striker trainees really need to worry about passing as it's not so much a secondary as attribute one and a half. And then there are wingers whose value is derrived as much from their secondary skills (pm, passing) as from their primary wing skill. Also, why I'll never train wingers- lots of risk at having to pay a lot for secondaries with a chance of no reward (someone not valuing your secondaries at a high level). That's a lot of money possibly thrown away that I just won't risk. I'm not a gambler- I'll leave the high risk, high reward stuff for others.

SI

[saintjo]

1 million every 24-32 weeks? Try buying 18 year old solids, especially fresh pulls. They'll be formidable within 16 weeks, and you'll still have their whole 19th year to train em.
I added this up wrong. I buy high passables so it should have been 16-24 weeks per million.

[Mr. Wednesday]

The only secondary skill I value significantly in a winger is playmaking. I'm still at a level where halfway decent playmaking has something to offer my midfield, even when I'm playing my wingers offensive. When I change my training program, I'm thinking seriously about trying to do a winger-to-playmaking step where I start out training wingers and after a couple of seasons switch to training them in playmaking (some of them, anyway).

[Havok]

The only secondary skill I value significantly in a winger is playmaking. I'm still at a level where halfway decent playmaking has something to offer my midfield, even when I'm playing my wingers offensive. When I change my training program, I'm thinking seriously about trying to do a winger-to-playmaking step where I start out training wingers and after a couple of seasons switch to training them in playmaking (some of them, anyway).


Its kinda wierd but im kinda the opposite of you right now Mr. Wednesday. I train midfield and my starters next season with be Magnificent/Brilliant/Brilliant, so im kidna at a spot where spending an extra 500k for a winger with 2 levels of PM just isn't worth it at all to me.

When/IF i get some spare moeny this season i plan on going after an offensive winger. Now i could spend 2 million on an outstanding winger with passable PM and decent passing, or i could spend 2 million on a Brilliant winger with weak PM and decent passing. I'd rather have the 1 level higher attack from the brillaint winger then the very very small midfield gain i'd get from the outstanding winger with passable PM.

But thats just me......

[saintjo]

thanks for all the help and discussion on possible trainees, but no one has mentioned if and how profitable winger training is. anyone have any experience with this?

[YoSoySean]

However, if I see two players up for sale: one at $4.5M for a world class with poor passing and one at $4.9M for a world class with passable passing, there's no way I spend the extra $400K.

I would. $400k is not all that much. For a team who needs that kind of player, all it means is just about one home match's revenue. I'd much rather have someone who can contribute to the attack or defense and spend the extra couple hundred throusand dollars.

[vex]

I would. $400k is not all that much. For a team who needs that kind of player, all it means is just about one home match's revenue. I'd much rather have someone who can contribute to the attack or defense and spend the extra couple hundred throusand dollars.

I would as well.

[Havok]

I would. $400k is not all that much. For a team who needs that kind of player, all it means is just about one home match's revenue. I'd much rather have someone who can contribute to the attack or defense and spend the extra couple hundred throusand dollars.


For me it comes down to wages.... I now have 2 of the 3 guys that im taking to around Mythcial PM. They both are American and have low secondary's (poor/poor weak/weak). I did this because of wages, at that level wages are sick, especially for guys with good secdondary's. So i kinda agree with Ice and Sean. At lower levels secondarys are fine if your willing to pay extra for them. At higher levels (Titanic +) it starts to become risky.

It also depends on your team aswell. If you run a 3-5-2, 4-5-1,4-4-2 etc... then middy's with good passing might be a good idea. Simply because its harder to generate strong top level offenses with only 2 forwards. Now if your running a 3-4-3 then maybe a couple middy's with defense might be a good idea because your offense is gonna be strong reguardless. Offensive, Defensive, Balanced coaches also play a factor in this also.

[dacman]

At lower levels secondarys are fine if your willing to pay extra for them. At higher levels (Titanic +) it starts to become risky.

All that may be changing with 6.6. At least, I hope so.

[Havok]

~Dola~

I also think Ice was a little off on his prices differences. At levels like WC your gonna pay upwards of 600k - 700k for passable passing opposed to poor/weak passing. Maybe as much as a million.

[Havok]

All that may be changing with 6.6. At least, I hope so.


naaaa im pretty sure its gonna be a stamina thing(But i could be wrong). Having a really high secondary skill like passing or defense should make a guys wages go up alot.

[saintjo]

naaaa im pretty sure its gonna be a stamina thing(But i could be wrong). Having a really high secondary skill like passing or defense should make a guys wages go up alot.
right, but one of the other changes listed in 6.6 is that wage calculations are supposed to change. i would assume passing skill will not affect wages as much as before.

[Tellistto]

right, but one of the other changes listed in 6.6 is that wage calculations are supposed to change. i would assume passing skill will not affect wages as much as before.
This could be a clue on this...

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>5/7/2004</TD><TD vAlign=top align=left></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left colSpan=2>There are a couple of long term changes that the game is undergoing since many many seasons. One is that midfield is slowly slowly being made less dominant. This change is now nearer it's completion than it's beginning. However, there are going to be some further minor changes along the same line for a few more seasons.

The other long term change that we want to mention is that secondary skills (and the 3rd skill and 4th skill and so on), for instance passing and defending for midfielders, or passing and playmaking for defenders, are being encouraged. This change started only a few seasons ago and will continue for many seasons on.
One way to encourage them would be to lower their affects on wages.

Tell
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[Havok]

right, but one of the other changes listed in 6.6 is that wage calculations are supposed to change. i would assume passing skill will not affect wages as much as before.


i think you misunderstood what i said. I think its gonna be the way 'Stamina" is calculated in wages. Im not sure if you know this or not, but stamina effects wages quite a bit. And in postions like defending and forwards stamina isn't a big deal, but yet it increases the wages alot. Thats what i think they'll fix in 6.6..... but like i said, i could be wrong.

[saintjo]

i think you misunderstood what i said. I think its gonna be the way 'Stamina" is calculated in wages. Im not sure if you know this or not, but stamina effects wages quite a bit. And in postions like defending and forwards stamina isn't a big deal, but yet it increases the wages alot. Thats what i think they'll fix in 6.6..... but like i said, i could be wrong.

no i understood you, i was disagreeing with you :) i do think stanima could be dropped some as far as wages go, but i personally think they are going to adjust passing. i personally think passing currently adds way too much to assessed values and wages.

[Havok]

no i understood you, i was disagreeing with you :) i do think stanima could be dropped some as far as wages go, but i personally think they are going to adjust passing. i personally think passing currently adds way too much to assessed values and wages.


ohhh ok :)

But i disagree with your assessment that passing adds to much to wages. A midfiedler with passable passing adds about 1 level to your central attack if you play him offensive. THATS ALOT!!! It cost me 2.5 million bucks to upgrade my forward to add one level to my central attack. If someone is gonna have a big impact on 2 ratings (I.E. midfield & central attack or midfield & defense) they're wages should reflect it.

Puts more stratagy into the game if you ask me...... should i buy the titanic middy with weak/poor passing for 6.5 million with wages of 45k a week. Or should i buy the titanic middy with passable passing for 7.5 million with wages of 55k a week.

[saintjo]

ohhh ok :)

But i disagree with your assessment that passing adds to much to wages. A midfiedler with passable passing adds about 1 level to your central attack if you play him offensive. THATS ALOT!!! It cost me 2.5 million bucks to upgrade my forward to add one level to my central attack. If someone is gonna have a big impact on 2 ratings (I.E. midfield & central attack or midfield & defense) they're wages should reflect it.

Puts more stratagy into the game if you ask me...... should i buy the titanic middy with weak/poor passing for 6.5 million with wages of 45k a week. Or should i buy the titanic middy with passable passing for 7.5 million with wages of 55k a week.

true, but i get the feeling they dont want players to have passable and weak passing anymore, they want players to start having excellent+ passing. assuming passing training becomes more widely used (which seems to be where they are pushing it), there are going to be a lot more players with higher passing. yeah deciding on wages between a weak and passable passer is not a big deal, but do you want to pay a guys wages that has titantic pm and outstanding passing. if ht gets their way, there are going to be a lot more types of these guys floating around and they are going to cost a ton in wages.
and with wages, my experience comes from training defenders. i know defense is one of the lower skills that affect wages, but currently (it seems to me anyway) that passing adds almost as much to the assessed value as defense and currently defenders only need passing for tactics.

[daedalus]

I think this is a horrible misconception depending on what level you are training to.Absolutely. There are certain levels where you can get away without having to fight for secondaries.Granted, this is only true for middie and defense trainees. Striker trainees really need to worry about passing as it's not so much a secondary as attribute one and a half. And then there are wingers whose value is derrived as much from their secondary skills (pm, passing) as from their primary wing skill. Also, why I'll never train wingers- lots of risk at having to pay a lot for secondaries with a chance of no reward (someone not valuing your secondaries at a high level). That's a lot of money possibly thrown away that I just won't risk.But . . . but . . . but . . . sterling . . . he was asking about . . . wingers! So, y'know, you agreed with me! :D

Granted, I still value a certain level of secondaries in midfielders than most do. I still see a couple of inner midfielders put on the wire at the same time in the 'formidables+' thread where somebody will wonder why their player isn't selling but another went for more. But I do agree with your point that, at a really high level where players don't go on sale very often, people will certainly be willing to buy inner midfielders without secondaries. I also agree that forward is the one position (I'm skipping goalkeepers since they don't actually have a secondary skill) where I'd be willing to forego secondaries for the right level of primary skill.

[Carligula]

thanks for all the help and discussion on possible trainees, but no one has mentioned if and how profitable winger training is. anyone have any experience with this?

Okay, time to unhijack this thread from those blasted MF's. :) Like I said I don't have experience with the sales part of it yet, but I can give you my guesses based on my low-level training thus far.

You'll be selling two wingers per year (you train four, but you'll want to stagger them so as to always have high-level players around). An early-season 17yo passable with no particular secondary skills runs about $10-20K, and two seasons of training makes him a brilliant worth... who knows what the market will look like two seasons from now, especially for secondariless players? Right now I'd expect at least a million. That's $2 million/year, which is comparable with defense training, no?

But I think sterlingice is dead on about winger training being more of a gamble. Wingers, especially pure wingers, are unfortunately regarded as an optional position; you may have to list your player many, many times before finding a buyer, and all the while he's using a slot that could be better spent on the next trainee. I cannot say anything useful at this time on buying and selling trainees with secondaries.

And then there's wingbacks. I don't know what to do about wingbacks. Right now my wingbacks are just winger trainees with no secondaries whatsoever, meaning there's less profit in giving them full training. Once I have the cash (starting the season after next), I'll probably buy Solid/Exc defenders with, say, Weak/Inad winger, and keep them around for maybe three seasons to get them to Exc/Exc. I have no idea how lucrative that element of training is, but it doesn't really matter unless you want 2/3 of your back line taken up by players who can't defend at all.

I hope this helps, or is at least marginally worth reading. :)

[Mr. Wednesday]

If you're only getting $2 MM a year, you're seriously missing out. I can get between $4 MM and $5 MM a year training keepers (two trainees staggered, starting at mid-solid and training to magnificent) and I know that's toward the low end of the profit scale.

[Carligula]

That may be, or it may be much more than $2m. I just copied this out of the winger fed, and it seems to be generally-accepted as bluebook value.

NO SECONDARIES

formidable........0.6 m €
outstanding.......1.4 m €
brilliant.............2.2 m €
magnificent.......3.0 m €
world class........3.8 m €
supernatural......4.6 m €
titanic ..............5.4 m €
extra-terrestrial..6.2 m €
mythical............7.0 m €

On the other hand prices have been plummeting lately, which may be just the end-of-season effect, or may be something more. What we need is for a legit winger trainer - Duke, FrogMan, is there anyone else? - to weigh in.

[FrogMan]

Can't help much, as I'm only a prospective winger trainer. I trained winger during my cup run last season, will do it again this coming season, but in the meantime, I'm not done with my playmaking training... Because of that, I have not sold many of my wingers...

FM

[Mr. Wednesday]

That may be, or it may be much more than $2m. I just copied this out of the winger fed, and it seems to be generally-accepted as bluebook value.

NO SECONDARIES

magnificent.......3.0 m €
At that level, with a staggered trainee pairing, you should be able to bank about $6 MM/season (a pair of magnificents). You would graduate two trainees every season.

[daedalus]

If it helps, I'll be selling a formidable winger with solid playmaking in a week or two so I'll be able to contribute that. :)