Euro 2004 Discussion

[Katon]

Random thoughts from Portugal-Greece:

* Luis Figo has a major attitude problem
* Ferreira's give-away just before the first goal was one of the most spectacular brain freezes I've ever seen in a major tournament. He stopped dead, the ball kept rolling
* For a team with 60% possession, Portugal sure were short on attacking threats
* A well organized team of lesser players can beat an incoherent team of talented basket cases nine times out of ten (see also the 2003-04 Champions' League). This, of course, makes my pick of Holland to reach the final really, really stupid

[sachmo71]

What sport are you talking about?

[Desnudo]

Random thoughts from Portugal-Greece:

* Luis Figo has a major attitude problem
* Ferreira's give-away just before the first goal was one of the most spectacular brain freezes I've ever seen in a major tournament. He stopped dead, the ball kept rolling
* For a team with 60% possession, Portugal sure were short on attacking threats
* A well organized team of lesser players can beat an incoherent team of talented basket cases nine times out of ten (see also the 2003-04 Champions' League). This, of course, makes my pick of Holland to reach the final really, really stupid

Ronaldo and Deco should have started. And they should have subbed out their useless strikers at halftime. And watching Portugal was kind of like watching an NBA game.

[Katon]

Ronaldo and Deco should have started. And they should have subbed out their useless strikers at halftime. And watching Portugal was kind of like watching an NBA game.

Care to elaborate for someone who isn't on the same continent as the NBA?

Deco and Ronaldo were certainly much more useful than Rui Costa and Simao, although I'm not sure how good an idea it was to move Deco out right and Figo into the middle. Most of Ronaldo's crosses kept needing someone to show up at the far post and Deco wasn't doing that.

Watching Spain-Russia now and Spain look a much better side than Portugal - the class of the group. How many good wingers do they have, anyway? Vicente and Exteberria have been their most threatening players, they've got Joaquin on the becnh . . .

[atatange1]

How is Real player's Euro Pass working for everyone? I didn't think I would get it but for $15 i figured why not. Its has been one pain in the ass so far. For me atleast.

[MIJB#19]

Interesting Scenario in group A now.
Scores:
Portugal 1-2 Greece
Spain 1-0 Russia

Standings:
1. Greece 3 pt (2-1)
2. Spain 3 pt (1-0)
3. Portugal 0 pt (1-2)
4. Russia 0 pt (0-1)

Next up:
Greece-Spain
The winner advances if the team they beat today doesn't lose.
Spain ned a victory to be able to beat Greece on tiebreakers.
In case of a draw the Greeks have a goal scored more at the moment.
Greece have a mental advantage over their better head-to-head in the qualifiers.
Both teams know that draws in the two remaining games are enough to advance into the last 8.
MIJ scenario: 0-0 draw
Spain know Greece's strenght and won't be upset, yet feel the pressure to win to stay ahead of Portugal and don't have to beat the host. Greece dare to settle for a draw having their relative easiest opponent left with Russia.

Russia-Portugal
The loser is eliminated if the team that beat them loses.
Portugal have the most credit to lose, as if they still have credit.
Additionally, Portugal have a chemistry problem.
Russia have a reputation to only play well in game three of group play.
A victory is very much needed for each team, no doubt.
Two victories look like the only escape for either team to head into the last 8.
MIJ scenario: depends on other game
If Spain beat Greece, Russia could dare to settle for a draw and gamble on beating Greece. In this scenario, I could see the game end up in a 1-1 draw.
With a draw in the other game, Portugal will be motivated knowing they still have a shot at winning the group. In this scenario, I can see Portugal win 2-0.
If Greece upset Spain, Portugal will think they need to win by 2 or more to make the goal difference count, while Russia should know that they need a victory to keep it in own hands, but I bet the Russians will focus on counter attacks. In the end, I project Portugal to in by one, like 2-1.

[scooter]

Deco and Ronaldo were certainly much more useful than Rui Costa and Simao, although I'm not sure how good an idea it was to move Deco out right and Figo into the middle. Most of Ronaldo's crosses kept needing someone to show up at the far post and Deco wasn't doing that.

Deco and Ronaldo really did seem to add a spark when they came on. Although in both games today, all the teams seemed to really show the Portugese heat in the second halves so some of that is down to tired legs. Figo disappoints me with his pouting (although it shouldn't, he did the same thing at the World Cup two years ago). He is the captain of the team, and he was pouting after the first 15 minutes. His mood is the mood of the team, and they all showed very little fight in the first half. Did anyone else think that the Greek team looked like a big blue wall?

Watching Spain-Russia now and Spain look a much better side than Portugal - the class of the group. How many good wingers do they have, anyway? Vicente and Exteberria have been their most threatening players, they've got Joaquin on the becnh . . .

Spain's wide players are awesome. They provided room in the middle for Raul and Morientes to work, but Baraja and Albelda were still back at mid-field so they had problems up there by themselves. I kept waiting for Spain to score another goal. They are going to need it in this group. Oh, and Puyol can play in my team any day!

A note on the upcoming matches in this group. Unfortunately the referee in the second match has made an attempt to determine the outcome of the next matches. His flurry of yellow cards was a disgrace. Shirt tugs and 50-50 tackles do not deserve yellow cards. Now, Russia, already looking for centerbacks in the crowd, are in deep trouble. And the yellow cards to Baraja and Albelda could take some of the teeth out of Spain's midfield.

[Desnudo]

Care to elaborate for someone who isn't on the same continent as the NBA?

I meant that it seemed liked Portugal would have 10 guys standing around while one guy, mainly Figo then Ronaldo, dribbled around and tried to cross the ball or get a shot off. No team action, like was mentioned. Kind of like the NBA offenses of today where someone stands around dribbling and then goes one on one against a double team.

In other news, does anyone else think that Spain has at least 2-3 Mullet of the Tournament candidates? I think Torres could take World Mullet of the Year.

[Katon]

I meant that it seemed liked Portugal would have 10 guys standing around while one guy, mainly Figo then Ronaldo, dribbled around and tried to cross the ball or get a shot off. No team action, like was mentioned. Kind of like the NBA offenses of today where someone stands around dribbling and then goes one on one against a double team.

In other news, does anyone else think that Spain has at least 2-3 Mullet of the Tournament candidates? I think Torres could take World Mullet of the Year.

Ah. Yes, that is a fair description - see the above comment about nobody being at the far post for Ronaldo's crosses, which the BBC commentators were obsessing about. If Portugal don't get their act together for the Russia game, they won't win it and might very well lose, which would leave them completely eliminated. Of course, even if they do win, they would still need a result from the Spain match which it's kind of hard to see them getting.

And yes, Torres does have a quite spectacular mullet. Great player, but really silly hair. *

[Chief Rum]

The BBC is broadcasting this? I get the BBC on my cable system.

I thought it was all PPV (besides that Euro Internet deal).

CR

[ice4277]

The BBC is broadcasting this? I get the BBC on my cable system.

I thought it was all PPV (besides that Euro Internet deal).

CR
I think you are thinking of BBC America. Two different channels, and the American version is not broadcasting it unfortunately.

Also, as to the internet pass, I purchased it, and every time I go to log in to the service, it tells me the Real Player has encountered an error, and it closes the program. I have tried re-installing a couple times, and keep getting that message :mad: Nice waste of 15 bucks to this point.

[Katon]

Switzerland-Croatia just finished. More card-happy refereeing, one of the most boring matches I can remember seeing at a major finals, and neither side looks to have a hope in hell of keeping France or England out of the knockout stages.

[MikeVic]

WOW. Zidane.. wow...

[atatange1]

France 2 - England 1. I think Beckham might be in a bit of trouble for missing that penalty.

[Katon]

And don't forget Heskey for giving away that free kick. There's also the question of what Gerrard thought he was doing with that last backpass.

More general comments to follow at some point tomorrow.

[BreizhManu]

WOW. Zidane.. wow...

same here, WOW

Else great defense by england (except on the last action of course :rolleyes: )

[ice4277]

For those who have not been able to follow the game:

England led 1-0 thanks to a first-half goal by Frank Lampard off a nice David Beckham free kick. Cut to the second half, and England are awarded a penalty kick, however, Beckham misses and it is still 1-0 with about 15 mins left to go. Early in stoppage time, a foul by England gave France a free kick on the edge of the box, which Zidane took and converted into a goal for a late equalizer, 1-1. However, they weren't done yet, as France quickly came back down, lazy defending by England causing James to come out and foul one of the French players (Henry?) and the ref awards a penalty. Zidane converts, the ref blows the whistle for full-time, and France completes one of the more unexpected combacks of all-time, with two goals in the extra time. Think Man U/Bayern Munich, only crazier. Wow.

[scooter]

Actually Beckham didn't miss the penalty, Barthez saved it (and a yard or two off his line too, but they never call that anyway!). I think it's a case of one too many practice penalties against each other back in their ManU days.

Heskey's foul was foul. You've got to give him credit for tracking back to play some defense, but Viera wasn't really going anywhere. I knew when they gave him the foul, France were going to score. Zidane is a master in those situations.

Gerard's back pass was a major brain fart. I still don't know why he didn't boot the ball upfield like they had done the last 200 times. You had to think that passing back to Calamity James in injury time of this game would rank pretty close to the top of the list of things not to do. Credit though to James, he had played a decent game up to that point.

I didn't see Euro2000, but I've heard enough stories about the final to know that France can never be counted out of a game. Didn't they trail Italy 0-1 until injury time, score in injury time, and then win the tournament on a golden goal in overtime? I kept thinking that they only needed half a chance.

This is going to be a real test for England to recover from this result. This is a heart-wrenching loss. Hopefully they can get back on track and win the next two. Focus on the way they played in the first 90 minutes.

Finally, pay-per-view isn't all it's cracked up to be. My cable company had a "problem" this morning with the first game, and I never saw it (doesn't sound like I missed much). I better be getting a credit when the bill comes.

[Critch]

How is Real player's Euro Pass working for everyone? I didn't think I would get it but for $15 i figured why not. Its has been one pain in the ass so far. For me atleast.

So far I'm fairly underwhelmed. Haven't been able to get any of the daily news things to work, continually get sent to the screen where I have to log in, and the webcast stalls alot.

On the plus side are the historic highlights, which are pretty impressive. Seeing Panenka's penalty that won the 1976 final for Czechoslovakia v Germany was worth the $15 alone for me.

And isn't it sad that there are millions of poor Englishmen crying into their lukewarm beer as we speak..... :D

[Critch]

Dola........

Actually, the 10 minute highlight package for each game is quite good, if you get it working ok.

[ice4277]

Dola........

Actually, the 10 minute highlight package for each game is quite good, if you get it working ok.
I see you are having the same problems I am. I continually get stuck in a loop of having to log in, then when I go to click on the highlight, it tells me I am not logged in, and sends me to the login screen again :rolleyes: Also, sometimes when I try to log in, RealPlayer tells me there is an error, and shuts down. Then I have to re-install the program to get it to work again. So far, I'm not happy at all. I would actually be happier if it didn't work at all, I've spent a lot of time trying to get it right and it is pissing me off.

[Sharpieman]

ESPN actually showed the highlights of the game. Great save by Barthez. England relies on Beckham to do everything, someone else should have taken the penalty.

[Desnudo]

I was excited because I have Zidane in my fantasy pool, but after the match I really felt for the England side. Especially since the announcers (Sir Bobby Robson as analyst? Or was that someone else?) were so deflated. Up until Zidane's first goal they had been so excited about England beating France I felt like I was watching the movie Victory. As a lifelong Red Sox fan, I know the feeling of having the rug yanked from under you.

This match definitely made the entire PPV worth it.

[Mac Howard]

I shouldn't really post - I'm feeling so gutted (just watched my taped recording of the England/France game about 30 minutes ago) that I'm not in charge of what I say. That was the cruelest finish to a game I can ever remember (I have some feeling now for the Bayern fans in 1999).

Liverpool players! I've shot 'em! Heskey gives away a totally unnecessary freekick, Gerrard plays the best through ball France had all night and Owen was a complete nonentity. No wonder they struggled to make the CL qualifiers. I'll bet it was Houllier who advised Eriksson to replace Rooney with Heskey ;)

But, that's what happens when you decide to defend a one goal lead for half the match - a silly mistake, a bad refereeing decision (Silvestre should have been off!), one piece of skill from an opposition player etc - and it's gone.

Grumble, grumble, grumble ..............

[MIJB#19]

I shouldn't really post - I'm feeling so gutted (just watched my taped recording of the England/France game about 30 minutes ago) that I'm not in charge of what I say. That was the cruelest finish to a game I can ever remember (I have some feeling now for the Bayern fans in 1999).That's one of three games it reminded me off.
The other two were the 2002 Dutch cup final (Ajax equalised in the last minute of injury time on an offside goal and scored the golden goal 3 minutes into extra time) and the 2002 WC qualifier Portugal-Netherlands, where Portugal came back from 0-2 down with the 1-2 with about 5 mins left and a penalty kick from Figo in injury time to tie the score and decrease our team's odd of qualifying.

[MIJB#19]

Scenario in group B.
Scores:
Switzerland 0-0 Croatia
France 2-1 England

Standings:
1. France 3 pt (2-1)
2. Croatia 1 pt (0-0)
3. Switzerland 1 pt (0-0)
4. England 0 pt (1-2)
Croatia hold tiebreakers over Switzerland based on WC2002 and Euro2004 qualifying results.

Next up:
England-Switzerland
England will be knocked-out if they lose.
England need to win to stay in contention, especially since they could see a scenario with France already qualified and giving away 3 points to the Swiss.
England should know that two victories in the remaining games are mean a ticket into the quarterfinals.
Switzerland need to win to get past Croatia, however, they could face an already qualified France and with a draw agianst England, they'd be through with a win over France's reserves.
The Swiss will miss another key player with Johan Vogel's suspension over a red card.
MIJ scenario: 2-0 England
Switzerland is even weak then I expected and England have something to correct. 2-0 might even be a little low, yet this is the early evening game, when the heat is a bigger factor.

Croatia-France
Croatia have a clear mission now, beat England and they have a shot at reaching the last eight,but only if they avoid losing to France.
For Croatia losing isn't lethal, yet it does mean that Switzerland will play the French reserves and that could make the Croatia-England game irrelevant.
France have as simple a goal as: win and advance to the last eight.
Even if France lose, a victory over the Swiss will help them to the last eight.
MIJ scenario: 1-1 draw
With both teams more focussed on not losing then winning, this could be a defensive game. The French won't underestimate Croatia's striker Dado Prso. Somehow I expect that the French will be a little bit exhausted and the relative weak Croatians take advantage to score a late equalizer.

[MIJB#19]

Tie-breakers rules in the group stages in case of same number of points:

1. number of points in head-to-head matches
2. goal difference in head-to-head matches
3. goals scored in head-to-head matches
4. goal difference in all games
5. goals scored in all games
6. better results in qualifying rounds for Euro2004 and WC2002

For the last tie-breakers, here are the orders per group:
Group A
1. Portugal
2. Spain
3. Russia
4. Greece

Group B
1. France
2. England
3. Coratia
4. Switzerland

Group C
1. Sweden
2. Italy
3. Denmark
4. Bulgaria

Group D
1. Czech Republic
2. Germany
3. Netherlands
4. Latvia

[Honolulu_Blue]

Liverpool players! I've shot 'em! Heskey gives away a totally unnecessary freekick, Gerrard plays the best through ball France had all night and Owen was a complete nonentity. No wonder they struggled to make the CL qualifiers. I'll bet it was Houllier who advised Eriksson to replace Rooney with Heskey ;)


Couldn't agree more. Useless Red Shites. You pull the Roone (a solid Everton lad) for Heskey and it all goes to shit. Not too surprising...

[Marc Vaughan]

Liverpool players! I've shot 'em! Heskey gives away a totally unnecessary freekick, Gerrard plays the best through ball France had all night and Owen was a complete nonentity. No wonder they struggled to make the CL qualifiers. I'll bet it was Houllier who advised Eriksson to replace Rooney with Heskey
Heskey coming on was what changed the match for England - while Rooney was on he held the ball up and eased pressure on the defense/setup counter attacks ... once Heskey was on the pitch we were under constant pressure.

(not going to post any more for a bit - need to ease my blood pressure ;) )

[MIJB#19]

Four games, seven goals.
2 penalty kicks, 1 free kick, 1 headed in free kick, 1 headed in corner kick.
That's five out of seven goals scored from standard situations.

I really hope this isn't a tone set for the complete tournament.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Four games, seven goals.
2 penalty kicks, 1 free kick, 1 headed in free kick, 1 headed in corner kick.
That's five out of seven goals scored from standard situations.

I really hope this isn't a tone set for the complete tournament.

I reckon, you're right, because if it ever comes down to penalties... You're f*cked. ;)

[Chief Rum]

Four games, seven goals.
2 penalty kicks, 1 free kick, 1 headed in free kick, 1 headed in corner kick.
That's five out of seven goals scored from standard situations.

I really hope this isn't a tone set for the complete tournament.

Heh...and Buffon and Kahn haven't even played yet...ouch...

CR

[Mac Howard]

The first round matches are always like this. Everyone's afraid of losing because that brings so much pressure on the last two games. I think (hope) we'll see more exciting stuff in the subsequent matches.

If the England lads feel anything like me - cheated and angry - then see them take it out on the Swiss - unless Swedish stoicism takes the passion out of their play :rolleyes:

[MIJB#19]

The first round matches are always like this. Everyone's afraid of losing because that brings so much pressure on the last two games. I think (hope) we'll see more exciting stuff in the subsequent matchesHaving watched almost all the games of the last 3 world cup tournament and last 2 european championships, this is not the experience I have from seeing the first round of matches in group play.
I do remember that the first few games have less goals (barring Germany's 8-0 over Saudi Arabia two years ago), but they weren't decided on "dead ball" situations.

I know, it's what the "experts" have been proclaiming for the last three years that top football would become more like a game of winning terrain and 75% of the goals scored from penalty kicks, free kicks and corner kicks.
It's just not my cup'o'football.

[Mac Howard]

Yes, I was referring to the number of goals not the manner of them.

I guess as coaching in the game becomes more sophisticated then there may be a shift towards set piece goals simply because you can rehearse and perfect these in training while creativity is stiffled by improved defensive play. Hope not :(

[Coder]

Ok.. time to stop mourning about what's happened and start biting your nails for Sweden! Swedish stoicism? We'll see.. I just have this eerie feeling I'll be disappointed tonight :(.

[Katon]

Heskey coming on was what changed the match for England - while Rooney was on he held the ball up and eased pressure on the defense/setup counter attacks ... once Heskey was on the pitch we were under constant pressure.

(not going to post any more for a bit - need to ease my blood pressure ;) )

Exactly. We weren't playing much football in the second half, but what threat we had was coming from Rooney. Sven's obssession with Heskey is getting downright silly - it's a good thing he didn't join Chelsea or we'd probably have to put up with him at club level too.

[Mac Howard]

>I just have this eerie feeling I'll be disappointed tonight

If the Swedish lads feel the same way then they're a goal down already.

They'll beat Bulgaria (that's scuppered them with my prediction record :) )

[MIJB#19]

Rooney was important to pressure the French defence, but wasn't he exhausted by the 75th minute? I didn't like his physical attitude, he was asking for a yellow card with his behaviour.
A bigger problem is how the English midfield couldn't reach Owen at all. Or should that be credited to the French defenders?

[Coder]

Thanks Mac.. I feel much better now! :)

Unfortunately it seems as if we'll start with our usual lawnmower crew in midfield rather than Anderlecht's Wilhelmsson and AC Rennes' Kim Källström we'll start Mikael Nilsson on the right wing and Anders Svensson as the attacking midfielder. :(

[moriarty]

Liverpool players! I've shot 'em! Heskey gives away a totally unnecessary freekick, Gerrard plays the best through ball France had all night and Owen was a complete nonentity. No wonder they struggled to make the CL qualifiers. I'll bet it was Houllier who advised Eriksson to replace Rooney with Heskey ;)

Hey now, Liverpool got rid of Heskey ... can't blame us for him anymore!

Owen is nothing w/out getting some solid service ... but Gerrard - what the heck happened? He's played exceedingly well all year with a new found maturity and then he gifts France at the worst possible moment. Ugh.

Benitez might want to keep his options open.

[Alf]

Thank you England. You did play a good conservative football with great counter-attacks, but Zidane is a real killer.

England has really dominated this game but Barthez saving Beckham penalty kick was the turn of the game. Then Zidane came ... and scored twice in extra-time !

The bad thing is that if we finish 1st, we are going to face Portugal who is likely to finish 2nd of their group now.

[scooter]

Rooney was important to pressure the French defence, but wasn't he exhausted by the 75th minute? I didn't like his physical attitude, he was asking for a yellow card with his behaviour.
A bigger problem is how the English midfield couldn't reach Owen at all. Or should that be credited to the French defenders?

I think Rooney's behavior was a major reason he was brought off. He had gotten into a couple scuffles with French d-men. I could see that France was getting frustrated and they were trying to bait him. At first he seemed to be reacting to it. But after about 5 minutes, he seemed to settle down and play with maturity. I wonder if Sven had gotten Heskey warmed up at those first signs of retaliation, and then just decided to bring in some fresh legs to help defend. Rooney continues to impress me every time I see him play.

Owen really needs those magic thru-balls and over-the-top passes to take advantage of his speed. Unfortunately, that isn't a mystery to anyone anymore. France's defense was taking that avenue away from England. I saw a number of times where England's midfield tried to get him the ball with his back to goal, and he just got knocked off the ball. you could see the frustration in his face when he came off. Vassell was a nice swap though. He added a little spark there and bloodied Barthez' nose with that knuckle ball shot.

[Desnudo]

It seems like everyone in the world but the people who matter, know that Heskey is pants. Something about him, a little keystone cops in him, makes me laugh a little anytime I see him run on the field.

[MIJB#19]

Owen really needs those magic thru-balls and over-the-top passes to take advantage of his speed. Unfortunately, that isn't a mystery to anyone anymore. France's defense was taking that avenue away from England. I saw a number of times where England's midfield tried to get him the ball with his back to goal, and he just got knocked off the ball. you could see the frustration in his face when he came off. Vassell was a nice swap though. He added a little spark there and bloodied Barthez' nose with that knuckle ball shot.Hmmm, that reminds me.
When Owen played together with Shearer, didn't Owen play around Shearer, like Rooney plays around Owen?

[3ric]

Henrik Larsson, Henrik Larsson, Henrik Larsson is the King of Kings...
Henrik Larsson, Henrik Larsson, Henrik Larsson is the King of Kings...
... \o/ \o/ \o/

[MIJB#19]

Henrik Larsson, Henrik Larsson, Henrik Larsson is the King of Kings...
Henrik Larsson, Henrik Larsson, Henrik Larsson is the King of Kings...
... \o/ \o/ \o/Fast Forward:
"And that is the final whistle! What an exciting comeback, Bulgaria wins 4-3. we suspect somebody out there jinxed the Swedish team."

[3ric]

:p Bite me. Zlatan just upped the score to 4-0.

[Coder]

5-0!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Coder]

Dola.. I'm still in amazed... I felt like we were losing the game.. 1-0 didn't feel deserved after 45 minutes, but with Nilsson going down on defense and Wilhelmsson coming in on the right midfield slot really we really got things going.

Larsson's 2-0 is an amazing goal.. how can a 4 foot dwarf get that diving header?!???! 3-0 one minute later, also by Larsson.. then Zlatan with the penalty kick and Allbäck with that great shot in the 90th... I'm still in chock.. what a second half!!

[SirFozzie]

Speaking of Heskey, I found this at one of the other boards I hang out at, and found it funny.

VP=VeteranPresence.com , a lowlevel fan site, more toward the humor side of things


On Futbol:

While I very much enjoy seeing some coverage of same on VP; I thought it might be appropriate to introduce readers to some of the work of the first great Internet Futbol Commentator, the great Arthur Thacker. Mr. Thacker (when not writing "At the End of the Day" would offer insights on a player or team in the form of a quiz; not at all unlike the OSJ Fedmark Quiz, but that's neither here nor there); anyway, here's as good a starting point as any...

ARE YOU EMILE HESKEY?

Take the Arthur Thacker quiz and see for yourself.

1. You are through on goal with only the keeper and a defender left to
beat. The last defender is only 5'3" and seven stone. What happens next?

a) You round him easily and take the keeper on one-to-one, then calmly
chip the ball over his head into the empty net.
b) Take the defender on for speed and skin him, then round the keeper
and walk the ball confidently into the goal.
c) The defender accidentally blows on you as he gets within three
yards...and you fall over, flat on your great big fat hairy black arse.
Then it's both arms up and face pulled in the hope that the ref will
give you the most unlikely penalty ever fucking awarded.

2. Would you describe yourself as a prolific goalscorer?

a) Yes.
b) No, but you have scored more than your fair share in your career.
c) Would you fuck. If you're a prolific goalscorer then Mandy Smith's a
beached whale.

3. You are walking down the street one day when a bird shits on you from
overhead. How do you react to this?

a) Smile and see the funny side of it.
b) Wipe it off gingerly and look to the skies in disgust.
c) Fall over on the spot as though you've just been snipered through the
fucking head with a hunting rifle. Then roll over and demand that the
bird be sent off.

4. How quickly can you run the 100 metres?

a) Very quickly, with a best time of 10.3 seconds.
b) Quite fast, though you can only manage it in just over 11 seconds.
c) "Run"? What the fuck is that? You mean fucking waddle along like a
big fat sack of shit on a skateboard....then fall off with ten metres to
go and the clock at four minutes fifty-six.

5. During a match, a high ball is crossed to you in the penalty area.
How do you head the ball?

a) With extreme power and accuracy.
b) Quite powerfully and with some degree of accuracy, though heading has
never been your strongest point.
c) With your arse...because you've been upended again by some three-foot
dwarf defender from Watford. You useless bucket of arse.

6. A long ball is played up to you from defence. It's a fair distance
ahead of you, so what do you do?

a) Get your head down and set off at full pace, reaching it just before
it goes out of play for a goal-kick.
b) Try to make it to the ball, because the cause is never lost. It's
always worth making the effort.
c) Fuck all. Just stand there like a great big fat soft-arsed cunt.
You're not running for no fucking ball, you're not. And why the fuck
should you? Thirty grand a week? Let some other fucker run for what
they're paying you. You might strain a fucking bootlace with all that
effort.

7. During a match you are involved in a bruising challenge with a
smaller player from the opposition. Which of these is the most likely
outcome?

a) The player bounces off your huge frame and knocks himself out, has to
leave the field and is out through injury for several weeks.
b) The opposing player is slightly shaken, though not badly hurt, and
from then on he makes sure he doesn't do it again.
c) You are incongruously bounced fifty feet in the air and land in Row
Z, where you suffer a broken face, three dislocated teeth, a pulled bank
balance and an ego-strain. You fat piece of shit.

8. Your nickname at your former club was "Bruno". Why was this?

a) Because Bruno is such a macho sounding name and goes with your
hulking appearance.
b) Because your aggressive approach reminds you of the old St Bernard
dog off the St Bruno adverts - big, strong, relentless and tough as old
boots.
c) Because of the boxer, Frank Bruno, and the fact that he was a great
big fat useless black twat who kept falling flat on his arse for no
reason as well.

9. What has been the biggest effect since your transfer to your new
club?

a) The higher profile and the greater expectations of the fans.
b) Just the fact that you are playing for one of most famous clubs in
history.
c) Earthquakes in the Merseyside area have increased by 3,000% because
of your great big fat arse hitting the deck so many times. Much more of
it and they'll be pulling the stands down due to foundation damage. You
fat unbalanced clumsy great big fuck.

10. What do you look like in a Liverpool football shirt?

a) Majestic, like you were born to wear it.
b) Ordinary, but once you get on that pitch there's no stopping you as
you give your all for the cause.
c) Like a giant fucking turd that's been left out in the sun too long.
And you're about as mobile as well. Oh, I tell a lie - turds do move
when they start to decompose. It's a very slow process, but it's still
quicker than you, you immobile tub of washed up dolphin shit.

ANSWERS:

Mainly a: You're not Emile Heskey.
Mainly b: Neither are you.
Mainly c: Well done, Emile, and welcome to Liverpool Football Club. It's
a good job Scousers are as thick as shit because no other cunt would
fall for that gag. Ha! Twelve million for a great big fat binbag full of
other folks's waste and pig droppings. No wonder they can smile down in
Leicester. Fuck me, this is revenge for us not taking Frank bastard
Worthington off their hands. And he was a fucking useless sack of twat
as well. Thirty grand a week...for a tub of tar on legs. Jesus Christ.
--
Arthur Thacker

[MIJB#19]

Scenario in group C.
Scores:
Denmark 0-0 Italy
Sweden 5-0 Bulgaria

Standings:
1. Sweden 3 pt (5-0)
2. Italy 1 pt (0-0)
3. Denmark 1 pt (0-0)
4. Bulgaria 0 pt (0-5)
Italy hold tiebreakers over Denmark based on WC2002 and Euro2004 qualifying results.

Next up:
Bulgaria-Denmark
Bulgaria has a clear mission, win two out of two to advance, draw one and go home.
Denmark don't need to win this game to stay in the race for the quarterfinals, beating Sweden would be enough to advance.
MIJ scenario: 1-1 draw
Denmark were impressive against Italy, yet Bulgaria will be detirmened. Denmark looks a bit better, yet Bulgaria are not to be underestimated, despite the 0-5 trashing. I suspect a close game with Bulgaria upsetting Denmark a little.

Italy-Sweden
Italy's situation will be mainly based on the other game, Denmark not winning means that Italy advances with a draw here and a victory over Bulgaria.
If Italy beat Sweden, a draw against Bulgaria is enough.
With a draw, Italy needs to beat Bulgaria big, because Denmark-Sweden has spectacle written all over and a 2-2 there could eliminate Italy independant of the goal difference.
Sweden's situation is really simple, a draw in this game could be more then enough to advance, two draws in the remaining games is enough due to the Danish-Italian 0-0 meaning Sweden will always have better tiebreakers.
Also, a Sweden victory would mean a clinched quarterfinals berth, independant of the Scandinavian derby against Denmark.
MIJ scenario: depends on other game
Both teams advance with a victory. With Italy's mission depending on the other game, I have two scenario's for this game.
With a Bulgarian victory or draw, I suspect this game will be a no-lose at all cost game and end in a 1-1 draw.
A Danish victory will require Italy to go for it, which isn't their style. Sweden have no need to attack, but the probably will anyway. Despite that I see Sweden as a semi-finalists, in this scenario I wouldn't be surprised to see Italy steal an undeserved 1-0 victory.

[Alf]

Italy will advance with 3 draws and go on to win it all like in the 82 World Cup... oops, hopes I am wrong, but that could happen !

[Sharpieman]

Man, Italy could be in real big trouble if they lose to Sweden, which is a very good possibility. Ought to be a great match.

[Coder]

SkySports really knows how to predict a game ;-)


Stelling predicts - Sweden v Bulgaria



I'm not going to lie to you. This game is as exciting as a day at Ikea. I'd rather stick pins in my eyes, as Rodney likes to say, than sit down and watch it.

Sweden are an organised side but desperately dull. Olof Mellberg's been in good form and we know what Freddie Ljungberg can do, but I don't see them setting the tournament alight.

People will obviously point the finger at Celtic hero Henrik Larsson and say what a great goalscorer he is. Will the 32-year-old get goals at this level? I'm not sure.

It's one thing banging them in against Partick Thistle and Aberdeen in the Scottish Premier League, but doing it in a European Championship is a different matter.

The one consolation for the Swedes is that they are not facing top quality opposition. And let's face it, you'd rather face Bulgaria than France, Spain or England even.

The Bulgarians, however, are no mugs. They finished top of a group that included Croatia and Belgium and will be hard to beat, though they may not be the most exciting to watch.

They don't really have any stars, Stilian Petrov is their biggest name, but if I put you on the spot right now could you name more than one of their team?

I see this ending goalless so don't expect a classic. You could always pop to Ikea if you don't fancy watching!

[MIJB#19]

11 hours and about 20 minutes before Oranje vs Die Mannschaft.
I hope I get home in time to see the kickoff... :o

The atmosphere here in the Netherlands is really weird. The "fans" and media have been anti-Oranje for half a year, but with the first opponent being archrival Germany, "fans" and media have forgotten they let their national team down half a year ago and are acting "patriotic".

Stupid only-fan-when-we-are-winning-fans...

[Coder]

Well MIJB... I'm holding "The orange" as favourites to win it all.. so good luck to you. :)

[daedalus]

Gio is starting for the Oranje! Gio is starting! Woohoo! He's no longer a Gunner but through no fault of his own. He tried but bad luck and situations just worked against him (I would have preferred him to Lauren but that's just me) at Highbury. He's one of the ex-Gunners I'll still root for.

I'm still rooting for Holland since I like so many of the players on the team but kind of a tacky place to go for Van Nistelrooij with his comments (http://soccernet.espn.go.com/euro2004/headlinenews?id=302994&cc=5901), though, in my opinion. Meh.

My apologies to the Brits in the house but, despite my general support for England, I was rooting for the French in that game. The Arsenal contingent was only part of the reason. I felt like the English players were talking a lot more trash than the French players were (at least in the various online articles I saw). I hate that crap.

[Alf]

MIJB, I am wearing an orange T-Shirt today (really flashy Orange). I purchased this T-Shirt last week just for this game vs Germany (I hate Germany since the 1982 Schumacher incident...).

Go Netherlands !

[Crapshoot]

SF, I could have done without the general racial overtones to the Emile Heskey thing, but it was somewhat amusing. THat being said, I halvent heard of an English fan that has anything good to say about Heskey, but there isn'
t a coach who badmouths him- and in this case, Im more willing to chalk it up to the average fan's ignorance as opposed to coaches from Erickson to Bruce to Ancellotti (Milan wanted to take him on loan last year, as did Lyon). He's not a prolific goalscorer, and never will be- but really, that's not his role.

Different Issue: Most impressive player you've seen so far ?
For me, its Vicente- watching the Spain game and watching him get the entire Russian backline booked was amazing - the man has an engine that doesnt stop, and some amazing skill. Arsenal are going to regret spending their 17 million quid on Reyes instead of him. Zidane is to be considered, but really, his brilliance was in a 5 minute spell- Vincente played the best game ive seen so far (I've watched all of them except the Croatia-Swiss one)..

[MIJB#19]

I'm still rooting for Holland since I like so many of the players on the team but kind of a tacky place to go for Van Nistelrooij with his comments (http://soccernet.espn.go.com/euro2004/headlinenews?id=302994&cc=5901), though, in my opinion. Meh.Stupid German journalists.
When the Dutch finally stop comparing the game with WWII, some moron butchers Van Nistelrooij's words (he was referring to WC74, not WWII) into something stupid.

On the other comments, I see other board members are wearing more orange then I will all day.:D

[SirFozzie]

That wasn't me.. that was me quoting someone else quoting England's equivalent of Bill Simmons.

Heskey.. is not a popular man over there. In fact, football365.com did a poster to mock Heskey. It's motto is simple. "Warning: Emile Heskey" with the picture of a guy falling on his backside (ie diving).

Also reminds me of the mock ad campaign Gunner fans (Arsenal, Man Utd's rival) put together during the Rio Ferdinand brouhaha..

"Vodafone introduced the Rio Ferdannd cell phone today. It's big, black, ugly, and takes six months to charge the fecker."

[MIJB#19]

Well MIJB... I'm holding "The orange" as favourites to win it all.. so good luck to you. :)I've been tipping Sweden as finalists, providing they can avoid the NLs in the quarterfinals...

[Crapshoot]

That wasn't me.. that was me quoting someone else quoting England's equivalent of Bill Simmons.

Heskey.. is not a popular man over there. In fact, football365.com did a poster to mock Heskey. It's motto is simple. "Warning: Emile Heskey" with the picture of a guy falling on his backside (ie diving).

Also reminds me of the mock ad campaign Gunner fans (Arsenal, Man Utd's rival) put together during the Rio Ferdinand brouhaha..

"Vodafone introduced the Rio Ferdannd cell phone today. It's big, black, ugly, and takes six months to charge the fecker."

-I apologize for the confusion - I know you didn't write it, and I was just referring to the article in general,and my thoughts on Heskey.

[3ric]

LOL @ Fozzie's Ferdinand joke. Good one.

I got a funny video clip in the inbox the other day, and thought I'd share - it's supposed to be a video from one of the Euro2004 teams practicing... ;)
ddb_gdnp140_030_small.mpg (http://www.lissvall.net/ddb_gdnp140_030_small.mpg)

[Alf]

On the other comments, I see other board members are wearing more orange then I will all day.:D
I will take a picture (although I am not shaved...)

On another note, I have my excel prediction sheet for the EURO that I did before going on vacation. Can I still submit it to you ? I had France win 2-1 & Spain 1-0 but had Portigal win 2-0 :(. If yes, PM me your email address. Thanks

[scooter]

Different Issue: Most impressive player you've seen so far ?
For me, its Vicente- watching the Spain game and watching him get the entire Russian backline booked was amazing - the man has an engine that doesnt stop, and some amazing skill. Arsenal are going to regret spending their 17 million quid on Reyes instead of him. Zidane is to be considered, but really, his brilliance was in a 5 minute spell- Vincente played the best game ive seen so far (I've watched all of them except the Croatia-Swiss one)..

I was impressed with both of Spain's wingers (Vincente and Etxeberria). Their ability to get wide and run at defenders is frightening. I don't get to see Spanish football, so they were a big surprise.

Rooney was a bright spot in the England game. His power and balance really helped hold up the ball so they could get a couple chances.

I was also surprised by Charisteas for Greece. In that game against Portugal, he was a real threat every time he touched the ball. He was big and strong and moved with good balance and pace. (I realise it was probably Portugal's defense that made him look so good, but he did impress).

[MIJB#19]

LOL @ Fozzie's Ferdinand joke. Good one.

I got a funny video clip in the inbox the other day, and thought I'd share - it's supposed to be a video from one of the Euro2004 teams practicing... ;)
ddb_gdnp140_030_small.mpg (http://www.lissvall.net/ddb_gdnp140_030_small.mpg)Today I got a joke in my mail box:

A guy parks his car on a parking lot.
Comes another guy dressed in orange all over to him and says:
"Haven't you heard? The German football team has been kidnapped".
The other man responds: "No I haven't, what's up?"
"Well, the kidnappers want 10 million US dollars, or else they soak them with gasoline."
"Wow!"
"Yeah, and now I'm collecting, do you want to share your part?"
Says the first guy: "What do must people give, if I may ask?"
The guy in orange: "Well, most are willing to give about 5 liters."

[HornedFrog Purple]

Listening to BBC the last couple of days, they were playing up that France was the best team in the world. I thought that Brazil was?

[MIJB#19]

Listening to BBC the last couple of days, they were playing up that France was the best team in the world. I thought that Brazil was?They were protecting themselves, in case England would lose to the "best" team in the world.

At least it's a smarter move then the other-end-of-the-world situation over here with people talking about Germany as if they are on the level of Cyprus, Estonia or Iceland...

[Celeval]

FYI, it looks like the the Germany - Netherlands live audio commentary (match at 19.45 (4:45 EDT)) is listed as free at http://www.euro2004.com/video/index.html .

[Celeval]

Dola... as are at least a handful of the archived audio. Unless audio is free all the time and I didn't know it, in which case, just ignore me. :-D

[fantastic flying froggies]

(I hate Germany since the 1982 Schumacher incident...).

Go Netherlands !
Ditto.

(I guess we're around the same age Alf...)

[Desnudo]

That wasn't me.. that was me quoting someone else quoting England's equivalent of Bill Simmons.

Heskey.. is not a popular man over there. In fact, football365.com did a poster to mock Heskey. It's motto is simple. "Warning: Emile Heskey" with the picture of a guy falling on his backside (ie diving).

Also reminds me of the mock ad campaign Gunner fans (Arsenal, Man Utd's rival) put together during the Rio Ferdinand brouhaha..

"Vodafone introduced the Rio Ferdannd cell phone today. It's big, black, ugly, and takes six months to charge the fecker."

Yeah, if Bill Simmons swore like a sailor and used racially questionable jokes. Although I did find the general idea of it funny.

[Desnudo]

SF, I could have done without the general racial overtones to the Emile Heskey thing, but it was somewhat amusing. THat being said, I halvent heard of an English fan that has anything good to say about Heskey, but there isn'
t a coach who badmouths him- and in this case, Im more willing to chalk it up to the average fan's ignorance as opposed to coaches from Erickson to Bruce to Ancellotti (Milan wanted to take him on loan last year, as did Lyon). He's not a prolific goalscorer, and never will be- but really, that's not his role.

So you don't trust your own eyes? Haven't you ever heard of the Ewing theory?

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/simmons/010509.html

In Heskey's case, I wouldn't flag him a superstar, although I suppose you could since the braintrust in England seems to think him worthy of playing internationally. I guarantee Liverpool will play better without him this season and Boro will be worse. I noticed that he's a big clod and I only caught a few games on Fox this season.

[Katon]

Kind of hard to see how Middlesborough will be affected by the fact that he's signed for Birmingham. I also think he's overrated, and it's not that I haven't seen what all those managers see in him - watch this season's Chelsea-Liverpool game at the Bridge to see exactly what he's supposed to be all about. The problem is that the number of matches in which Heskey plays like that is somewhat less than the number of matches where he is completely and utterly useless.

[bbor]

Deutchland Uber Alles!!!!

Although i think we( i use that term loosly as i am Canadian but both my folks are fresh off the boat) suck.

Losing to Hungary 5-1 in the last game gave me no confidence.

[atatange1]

FYI, it looks like the the Germany - Netherlands live audio commentary (match at 19.45 (4:45 EDT)) is listed as free at http://www.euro2004.com/video/index.html .

You can listen to all games live for free on BBC Five Live.

[MIJB#19]

Deutchland Uber Alles!!!!

Although i think we( i use that term loosly as i am Canadian but both my folks are fresh off the boat) suck.

Losing to Hungary 5-1 in the last game gave me no confidence.Losing 5-1 to Romania and 2-0 to Hungary you mean? :D

[Alf]

Game ended 1-1, a tie between Holland & Germany. Nice game, watched it with my wife, and was happy that she said, what, already finished : that's a sign of a good non-boring game.

But these Germans are brutes ! Especially in their own penalty box where they were holding Holland forwards all the time... and no penalties... That's what bugs me in football

[MIJB#19]

Scenario in group D.
Scores:
Latvia 1-2 Czech Republic
Netherlands 1-1 Germany

Standings:
1. Czech Republic 3 pt (2-1)
2. Germany 1 pt (1-1)
3. Netherlands 1 pt (1-1)
4. Latvia 0 pt (1-2)
Germany hold tiebreakers over Netherlands based on WC2002 and Euro2004 qualifying results.

Next up:
Germany-Latvia
Germany could live with a draw mathematically, but mentally a victory is a need.
For Germany, a loss won't even be the end of the tournament, but then a victory against the strong Czechs is a need.
Latvia need a victory to stay in the race, without a question, but mentally they will probably settle for a draw.
On the other hand, the close loss could be another eyeopener for the Latvians that they can upset even the best European teams.
MIJ scenario: 1-0 Latvia
The Germans want to win, the Latvians dream of a draw. I've felt that this game could be the major upset of the tournament for a long time now and I will go with the upset score. Or maybe it's just wishful thinking.

Czech Republic-Netherlands
A Czech victory would immediatly clinch a quarterfinals berth.
The Czechs escaped against Latvia, but will also advance if they draw 1-1 in this game and don't lose against Germany.
The Netherlands actually need to win this game, or else a wild 2-2 or 3-3 in the Czech-German game could end the orange hopes.
The Dutch have some rivalry with the Czechs to settle over qualifying games, yet the Czechs still suffer from a 1-0 last minute penalty kick loss in the Euro2000 matchup.
MIJ scenario: 3-2 Netherlands
The Dutch are slow starters, yet the second game is often the turnaround game. The Czech Republic is happy with the 3 points, but this rivalry is motivation enough. Since the game is a late evening game, I suspect that this could be a goal-loaded game, with one side winning 3-2. With my "patriotic" feelings, I predict a Dutch revange, the Czechs will have to wait for the Euro2004 final.

[bbor]

Losing 5-1 to Romania and 2-0 to Hungary you mean? :D


Yes...that too:)

Not a bad gane by the Germans...better than i had expected.

[scooter]

The Germans have to have felt a let down after giving away a late goal for the tie. They deserved the win. They were their normal disiplined selves at the back (with a lot of help from a lenient ref - way too much grabbing and holding). If van Nistelrooy hadn't scored on that chance, I think he should have been awarded a penalty as he was tackled by Nowotny. I still don't know how he got that to go in. People talk about how great Van der Sar is, but I am not impressed. He seemed tenative and shaky throughout. He kind of reminded me of Seaman two years ago at the World Cup.

The Czechs have to feel lucky to have salvaged a win. Latvia impressed me with their ability to break down the left hand side. Rubins looked dangerous on a couple of occasions. I don't think they will be able to do that against Germany (with Friedrich there). The Czechs seemed to be "on the power play" all day. I was waiting for Nedved to start banging his stick on the ice to get him the puck. Credit to Latvia's defense for essentially shutting down Jan Koller too.

[MIJB#19]

The Germans have to have felt a let down after giving away a late goal for the tie. They deserved the win. They were their normal disiplined selves at the back (with a lot of help from a lenient ref - way too much grabbing and holding). If van Nistelrooy hadn't scored on that chance, I think he should have been awarded a penalty as he was tackled by Nowotny. I still don't know how he got that to go in. People talk about how great Van der Sar is, but I am not impressed. He seemed tenative and shaky throughout. He kind of reminded me of Seaman two years ago at the World Cup.Maybe it's in my blood, but my opinion is very different:
1. The German goal was a freak goal.
2. Oranje playing with 6 left-footed midfielders doesn't work.
3. Not fielding a right-midfielder makes the right-wing attacker look lik Robinson Crusoe.
4. Marc Overmars still has what it takes to scare the opposing defense.
5. Germany are unable to defend a lead.
6. Schweinsteiger is a dangerous player.
7. Van der Sar looked confident as usual.
8. The last 25 minutes showed that Germany can't handle pressure.
9. The last 25 mninutes showed that the Dutch can pressure, despite the all-out-defense opposition.
10. Once again this game proved that the Netherlands are at their worst in the first game of the tournament.
11. If 10 is true, I am very optimistic with our chances to get deep into the tournament.

EDIT: added the italic words to statement 3 to end the sentence...

[MIJB#19]

MIJ order of strength:
01 France - great play, yet the escape was a one-in-a-million. The kind of escape only eventual champs get.
02 Sweden - 5-0, all strikers happy, amazing performance. But being at your best on day 3 of a 3-week tournament will cost you later on...
03 Italy - Classic Italian play was awarded with just one point, un-Italian like. But Italy are slow starters.
04 Netherlands - Still puzzling with the line-up, narrow escape in game one. The Dutch are just like in the previous tournaments they played: semifinals material.
05 Czech Replubic - Hyped as potential champs, escaped against the weakest of all 16 teams. Surviving the group stage could be harder then anticipated.
06 Spain - Young and talented, but one goal against Russia was too little.
07 Danmark - Fun to watch, unlucky in results. This could be another group stage knockout like in 1996 and 2000.
08 England - Example number of choking? Be glad that reaching the quarterfinals is still in own hands.
09 Portugal - What happened, are Figo and co really dropping fast?
10 Croatia - Failed to slaughter the Swiss in the heat, they might not be the expected darkhorses.
11 Germany - The WC2002 runners-up were the worst German team ever fielded. Never underestimate Germany, like I do now...
12 Greece - The upset of the tournament in the opening game and the weaker opponents to go. Is this the surpirse quarterfinalist?
13 Switzerland - Survived a 10 vs. 11 situation against Croatia. But what happened on that free kick?
14 Russia - With the best player sent home, this is the Russia we are familiair with, a team to fear. Too bad the defence is still too young and unexperienced...
15 Latvia - The little kid grew up fast, yet was learned a hard lesson.
16 Bulgaria - Can they overcome the 0-5 trashing? I highly doubt it.

[Alf]

Nice analysis as usual Matthijs

[Crapshoot]

Van NistelRooy was amazing- the fact that the Dutch even managed a draw given the bonehead that is Advocaat is impressive enough. For starters, why the hell do you start a bonafide Winger (Zenden) in a deep, central midfield paring with Davids ? Then, you put Bouma, an iffy fullback in central defense instead of Heitenga, who's played there all season ? you Secondly, why on earth do you abandon the 4-3-3 and instead put Van De Merdye up front with Van Nistelrooy ? IF you want a second, non Kluivert striker- play Makaay- he's supposed to be fairly decent. I thought they looked better once VanHoodldonk came on, as it let Van De Merdyde drop to as a conventional right sided winger, with Overmars on the left. '

In summary, I think if the Dutch win, it will be in spite of Advocaat- this is a man who spent 65 million pounds when at Rangers and still managed to lose a title to Celtic...

[Crapshoot]

Maybe it's in my blood, but my opinion is very different:
1. The German goal was a freak goal.
2. Oranje playing with 6 left-footed midfielders doesn't work.
3. Not fielding a right-midfielder makes the right-wing attacker.
4. Marc Overmars still has what it takes to scare the opposing defense.
5. Germany are unable to defend a lead.
6. Schweinsteiger is a dangerous player.
7. Van der Sar looked confident as usual.
8. The last 25 minutes showed that Germany can't handle pressure.
9. The last 25 mninutes showed that the Dutch can pressure, despite the all-out-defense opposition.
10. Once again this game proved that the Netherlands are at their worst in the first game of the tournament.
11. If 10 is true, I am very optimistic with our chances to get deep into the tournament.

1. Agreed- but see my previous post- what the hell is Bouma doing playing CD when Heitenga is there ?
2. Absolutely- Zenden being the shining example
3. I thought a 3 man front line with Robben on the left, and Van De Merdye on the right would have made the most sense.
4. Absolutely.me
5. The German central defense came in with questions, and failed to answer them- they have more flair than the past, but more fraility as well.
6. Looked the best German player of the game in his limited exposure- Bayern Munich would do well to lock him up.
7.Eh- The goal was his fault, ultimately, as he is the goalie and the man in charge- I dont know about that.
8 and 9. Well, I don't know- For most of the first 70 minutes or so, the Germans looked like the better team- the Dutch passing was horrific, especially by their standards. Suffice to say that eventually they had to come good, and they did. More so Schweinsteiger was 9 inches from making it 2-1 Germany on that breakaway...
10 and 11. Agreed, but I don't know how they will do against a solid, defensive team- thankfully, none exist in their group, but an Italy/Denmark seems like it would cause the Dutch trouble.

[Coder]

One thing that the commentators in Sweden pointed out, was that the Dutch players didn't talk to each other when being down by one. No pep-talking among teammates, no encouraging words "come on, we can do it" etc.. something which they pointed out that Germans are usually good at when being down by a goal. Is this something you saw last night as well?

[MIJB#19]

Then, you put Bouma, an iffy fullback in central defense instead of Heitenga, who's played there all season ? you Secondly, why on earth do you abandon the 4-3-3 and instead put Van De Merdye up front with Van Nistelrooy ? IF you want a second, non Kluivert striker- play Makaay- he's supposed to be fairly decent. I thought they looked better once VanHoodldonk came on, as it let Van De Merdyde drop to as a conventional right sided winger, with Overmars on the left. 'Aadik, I agree with some of your points, but on the defensive issue I do dare to defend Advocaat's decission yesterday.
Heitinga and Stam are great defenders, but only on the right side of the centre, not on the left. Knowing that, there are very few candidates to play left central defender:
1. Phillip Cocu - could play there, but was needed to mark Ballack on the midfield.
2. Frank de Boer - is written off and only selected as a hommage as being the most capped Dutchman.
3. "Fredje" Bouma - still new to the position as he saw a weird career starting at striker and then slowly went from left winger to left midfielder to leftback to left central defender.

Sadly, there are very no Dutch defenders who are better then this at left central defender, except the one-and-a-half year long and not back to old form Kevin Hofland.

Now start wondering why on earth it took me 90 minutes to finish this reply...

[MIJB#19]

One thing that the commentators in Sweden pointed out, was that the Dutch players didn't talk to each other when being down by one. No pep-talking among teammates, no encouraging words "come on, we can do it" etc.. something which they pointed out that Germans are usually good at when being down by a goal. Is this something you saw last night as well?Typical Dutchmen, terrible motivators.
usually, Davids takes the load of the pep-talking, but he wasn't there in the second half.

Additionally, the Dutch players can't stop talking about how much they are more a team then ever before, yet there are no signals or what-so-ever to defend it...

Crucial could be the fact that this team is (more then in the previous tournmanets) a team with almost retiring players and a new generation coming in.
With Van der Sar, Waterreus, Stam, Cocu, Overmars, De Boer, Van Hooijdonk being the old guys up for retiuring their Oranje-career.
With Heitinga, Sneijder, Van der Vaart, Bouma and Robben as the new generation.

But maybe it all has to do with the Dutch media- Oranje players relationship being at an all time low point.

[Alf]

Overmars should have started. All the play was on that side, and it's even funny to note that the orange goal came from the other wing ;)

[Coder]

Overmars was great, absolutely... lots of high balls on van Nistelroy that I didn't understand though.. he was out-duelled in the air all the time by the German defense, yet they kept feeding him high balls.

[MIJB#19]

Overmars should have started. All the play was on that side, and it's even funny to note that the orange goal came from the other wing ;)I disagree.
Overmars's physical health alows only 45 minutes of good play, you'd better use them in the second half then.
Robben wasn't game fit so the obvious replacement was Zenden.

Putting Davids, Van der Vaart and Cocu in one midfield is the thing that made Van der Meyde impossible to reach, yet Zenden's side overcrowded to make it impossible to make his moves. Davids on the left was invisible, VdVaart in the middle was lwalking to the left too much and on paper right midfielder Cocu was walking at the centre to mark Ballack all day, obviously creating a gap.
I remember a situation very typical for the first half. Heitinga had the ball on the right side close to the middle line, yet all the teammates were either on the left side of the field (Van Bronckhorst, Davids, Cocu, Zenden, Vd Vaart), at the back (Stam, Vd Sar, Bouma) or covered by two man and too far away (Van Nistelrooij, VD Meyde).

Start of game
...........Van Nistelrooij....Van der Meyde
Zenden..Van der Vaart......................
...Davids..................................
...............Cocu........................
Bronckhorst..Bouma......Stam.....Heitinga..
...........Van der Sar.....................


Start of second half
Overmars...Van Nistelrooij....Van der Meyde
.......Van der Vaart.......................
...........................Sneijder........
...............Cocu........................
Bronckhorst..Bouma......Stam.....Heitinga..
...........Van der Sar.....................


End of game
...........Van Nistelrooij.................
Overmars....Van Hooijdonk.....Van der Meyde
....Van der Vaart..........Sneijder........
...............Cocu........................
....Bronckhorst.......Bouma......Stam......
...........Van der Sar.....................

[HornedFrog Purple]

Being naive and from the US, I just don't see why France is being regarded as this good and #1. They did nothing in the World Cup, they were outplayed for 2/3rds of the England game (in my opinion), though they did win.

I watched the Germany game, and they look too old. But they are Germany and they always seem to stick around. I just can't stand watching their style of play especially when they get a lead but it works for them.

[scooter]

Well, France has won two of the last three big tournaments. They are also the reigning European champs. That being said, it's a lot like Tiger Woods still being ranked #1 in the world. What have you done for me lately?

I thought the Dutch looked like the more dangerous side for the first 20 minutes or so, and then the Germans settled into their gameplan. Yes, the Germans scored a weird goal, but I thought they defended well. Their overlapping play on the wings (Frings-Lahm and Schneider-Friedrich) was very good organized. The Dutch went for long periods of the second half where they could not get the ball back from the Germans. The Dutch did not seem to be playing very well, and when you aren't playing very well there are always two sides to it: the Dutch had first game jitters or the Germans knocked them off their game. I think some of the later contributed to some of the former.

Don't get me wrong though, I was pulling for the Dutch the whole time. I would like to see them play well as they have some of the most exciting players in the tournament.

[Desnudo]

Kind of hard to see how Middlesborough will be affected by the fact that he's signed for Birmingham. I also think he's overrated, and it's not that I haven't seen what all those managers see in him - watch this season's Chelsea-Liverpool game at the Bridge to see exactly what he's supposed to be all about. The problem is that the number of matches in which Heskey plays like that is somewhat less than the number of matches where he is completely and utterly useless.

Exactly. So they get the taste and they're like crack heads, completely out of their minds and illogical.

I did see highlights of that game on Fox Sports World. It's hilarious, because their commentator doesn't like his play either and takes any chance he can get to insult him.

[B & B]

Looking for under 2' goals in the Spain Greece game.

[3ric]

I'm totally in awe about how good Spain's right winger Joaquin is! Everybody's been raving about Vicente, for good reasons, but this guy is even better...

[B & B]

Fully expect Portugal to emerge victorious over Russia in the next one.

[RPI-Fan]

What's with Portugal's lineup?

Couto, Rui Costa, Nuno Gomes all on the bench.

[3ric]

Scolari's way of telling those underperforming primadonnas to shape up or ride the pine.

[RPI-Fan]

But Figo gets a free pass? And Ronaldo is still on the bench?

Seems like a double-standard...

[SirFozzie]

Ok..



(spoiler)

who had Greece with control of their own destiny entering the final game of group play? if they tie or beat Russia (who will likely be playing for pride only, if they don't win against Portugal, they cannot make it to the quarterfinal).. they are through no matter what...

1-0 to Portugal already. Yikes. Guess they had the fear of God put into em

[SirFozzie]

Ok. 1-0 at the half, plus Ovchinnikov, the Russian goalie, just got sent off for handball outside the area (will miss the final game as well.. so it's straight to Siberia for him).. Portugal's got this one/

[3ric]

What was it about the guy in the crowd that ran at the Russian bench? He had to be restrained by four guards...

[Katon]

I'm totally in awe about how good Spain's right winger Joaquin is! Everybody's been raving about Vicente, for good reasons, but this guy is even better...

Can't use his left foot, though.

Seriously, I'd been hoping for Joaquin as the solution to the gap on Chelsea's right side for quite a while just based on his reputation (Real see him as Figo's replacement, which looks pretty plausible so far, wouldn't you say?) and the fact that he isn't Beckham, and seeing him play live - and play like that - has only reinforced the hope.

HFP - France's World Cup was a complete fluke. Zidane missed the tournament injured, and they had even less luck finishing than the Spanish have had in this tournament. With Zidane in the team, and with Henry, they have two of the top four or five players in the world. Add in people like Viera, Makelele, Pires, and Gallas, and you've got one of the most talented squads in the world. I wouldn't say they were outplayed by England, either; the English just set up a wall around the penalty area and prayed France wouldn't score. Except for the goal and the penalty, England never looked remotely like scoring.

[Coder]

Totti might be suspended for spitting on a Danish player in the game on Monday.

http://www.euro2004.com/News/Kind=1/newsId=194049.html

I honestly don't think Sweden will have an easier time despite not having to face Totti, but one less superstar to think about is always nice.

[MIJB#19]

Greece-Spain
MIJ scenario: 0-0 draw

Russia-Portugal
MIJ scenario: With a draw in the other game, Portugal will be motivated knowing they still have a shot at winning the group. In this scenario, I can see Portugal win 2-0.

I feel like a football expert now. :cool:

[Crapshoot]

Aadik, I agree with some of your points, but on the defensive issue I do dare to defend Advocaat's decission yesterday.
Heitinga and Stam are great defenders, but only on the right side of the centre, not on the left. Knowing that, there are very few candidates to play left central defender:
1. Phillip Cocu - could play there, but was needed to mark Ballack on the midfield.
2. Frank de Boer - is written off and only selected as a hommage as being the most capped Dutchman.
3. "Fredje" Bouma - still new to the position as he saw a weird career starting at striker and then slowly went from left winger to left midfielder to leftback to left central defender.

Sadly, there are very no Dutch defenders who are better then this at left central defender, except the one-and-a-half year long and not back to old form Kevin Hofland.

Now start wondering why on earth it took me 90 minutes to finish this reply...

Haha. I actually was wondering about Hofland- I havent had a chance to watch much Dutch football anymore, other than the odd European appearance. 2 years ago he was being linked to Man Utd, as a potential star- now, he's not even good enough for the squad ? Now that I think about it, I do see your point- I can't exactly see too much options for the Dutch at the centre of defense- they seem unusually weak there.

[Crapshoot]

I don't think there's a team in the tournament that has better wingers than Spain- Joaquin and Vincente have both been pretty amazing. Madrid has long seen the former as the eventual replacement for Figo on the right side of that midfield, though Figo isn't really an ought and ought winger.

[MIJB#19]

Scenario in group A.
Scores:
Greece 0-0 Spain
Russia 0-2 Portugal

Standings:
1. Greece 4 pt (3-2)
2. Spain 4 pt (2-1)
3. Portugal 3 pt (3-2)
4. Russia 0 pt (0-3) - knocked out

Next up:
Greece-Russia
Spain-Portugal
Greece need a draw to advance, can win the group with a victory.
Spain advance with a draw, can win the group with a draw or win.
Portugal need a win to advance as they lost to Greece, a draw is not enough.
The Greece and Spain draw means that if they end up equal in points, the three-game goal difference or goals scored will be tiebreakers. In the worst case, ending up tied after that, Spain will advance to the quarterfinals based on results in WC2002 and Euro2004 qualifiers.
MIJ scenario: Portugal 2-1 Spain, Greece 2-2 Russia
Russia have a reputation to defend as last round spoilers. I can see Greece almost choke with the next round in their hands. A wild game will keep things interesting all 0 minutes in both games.
But, Portugal-Spain is the obvious most exciting game of the group. Spain are the big neighbours, yet Portugal are the team needing to win. Somehow I can see Portugal escape in this game and knock-out Spain.


The nine possible scenarios:
Greece win, Spain win -> 1. ****, 2. ****
Greece win, Spain tie -> 1. Greece, 2. Spain
Greece win, Portugal win -> 1. Greece, 2. Portgual
Greece tie, Spain win -> 1. Spain, 2. Greece
Greece tie, Spain tie -> 1. ****, 2. ****
Greece tie, Portugal win -> 1. Portugal, 2. Greece
Greece lose, Spain win -> 1. Spain, 2. Greece
Greece lose, Spain tie -> 1. Spain, 2. Greece
Greece lose, Portugal win -> 1. Portugal, 2. ****
**** = Greece or Spain based on best goal difference, most goal scored or last case Spain winning tie-breakers

[MIJB#19]

Haha. I actually was wondering about Hofland- I havent had a chance to watch much Dutch football anymore, other than the odd European appearance. 2 years ago he was being linked to Man Utd, as a potential star- now, he's not even good enough for the squad ? Now that I think about it, I do see your point- I can't exactly see too much options for the Dutch at the centre of defense- they seem unusually weak there.Definatly, after Rijkaard retired, Frank de Boer took over. From 1996 to 2000, De Boer was a top defender and his injury was a big deal in Oranje's relative bad 1996 campaign. However, De Boer looks over the top and despite De Boer's huge career, his selection is only not questionable since the left defender position is thin.
Winston Bogarde is about 15th choice at Chelsea.
Feyenoord's Patrick Paauwe only fits at the midfield in Oranje.
Ruud Knol is coming back from a career threatening injury, he was a hot player going into the WC2002 qualifying campaign.
Ex-Willem II and next season AZ defender Joris Mathijsen is far from ready.
Barry Opdam has no international experience at AZ, but could get some next season.

By the way, Hofland's situation is also the story of Bouma. Hofland's injury paved the way for Guus Hiddink to try Bouma in the centre and Bouma played well enough to keep the role.

[daedalus]

I'm totally in awe about how good Spain's right winger Joaquin is! Everybody's been raving about Vicente, for good reasons, but this guy is even better...He's one of more highly rated young players that I've read about. Never seen him, though.

Of course, as a Gunners fan, I'm obliged to say that the best young Spanish winger is playing as a forward at Highbury. :D

[daedalus]

What's with Portugal's lineup?

Couto, Rui Costa, Nuno Gomes all on the bench.Given that they're both simiarly talented players and Rui Costa spent a lot of the season being kept out of the lineup by Kaka while his replacement spent much of it helping his under-rated team win the Champion's League, I don't think it's a horrible move. From all I've read, the defenders that were out were all replaced by similarly rated players.

And, yes, Figo would get a "free pass" as you call it. He's still one of the main driving force for that squad and, as he goes, so goes the team. Not to mention that C Ronaldo still haven't even established himself as a starter with his club yet (though if the end of the season is any indication, that's coming REALLY soon). Plus, being able to introduce C Ronaldo into a game against tiring defenders has got to be one of the meannest thing ever.

[cg]

Do you know which person Portugals Ronaldo is named after?

http://www.manutdzone.com/playerpages/CristianoRonaldo.htm

(Ronaldo Trivia).

[Crapshoot]

Ronald Regean...

[MIJB#19]

Let's see whether my crystal ball was crystal clear 3 days ago...England-Switzerland
MIJ scenario: 2-0 England
Switzerland is even weaker then I expected and England have something to correct. 2-0 might even be a little low, yet this is the early evening game, when the heat is a bigger factor.

Croatia-France
MIJ scenario: 1-1 draw
With both teams more focussed on not losing then winning, this could be a defensive game. The French won't underestimate Croatia's striker Dado Prso. Somehow I expect that the French will be a little bit exhausted and the relative weak Croatians take advantage to score a late equalizer.

[Mac Howard]

The news is that Croatia are going to field a second string team against France to save the first choice players for the England game. They figure that they may beat England and go through in second place with 4 points against England's three (assuming they beat Switzerland).

Croatia look like a difficult team to beat - their style reminds me of the hunt-in-packs, aggressive, pressing game of Porto.

Another danger for England is that if France beat Croatia and then field a reserve team against Switzerland in the last game (having already taken top position) they could let Switzerland back into the reckoning (England draw with the Swiss and beat Croatia - 4 points - but Switzerland beat the second string French team - 5 points). France, of course, 6 points.

Another consideration: it may be better to finish second in this group if Greece finish first in group A and Spain second.

An hour to the England match. Hope Eriksson's got the negativity out of his system :rolleyes:

[Darkiller]

I see France going 2-0 in this game.

[PilotMan]

Spoiler....










England, after surviving very early, is ahead 1-0 22min in. Rooney scores on a header.

[PilotMan]

Spoiler








Rooney scores in the second half England go 2-0.

[SirFozzie]

Very uninspiriting performance tho. They're calling it an own goal for Rooney's 2nd on Soccernet

[PilotMan]

A third for England off the keeper, should add that the Swiss are down to 10 men. I guess they can breath a sigh of relief now.

[mordhiem]

Unconvincing yet comfortable performance from England. Beckham was dissapointing again I felt, thouigh Lampard and Gerrard were improved.

[ice4277]

Jeez, is Switzerland having a bad time of it or what? Two red cards in two games? Yeesh.

[SirFozzie]

2nd game of the day, France v Croatia going on now. France clinches going through with a win.

Croatia was thought to be resting their players with an eye towards the group finale with England. Five Croatian players were booked in their first game with Switzerland, which earned a fine from UEFA, and they can't afford to have any of their guys to pick up a 2nd yellow and be suspended for the England game.

The 3-0 England win pretty much means that a draw should be enough to get them through against Croatia, UNLESS Croatia pull off the upset.. then it becomes a must win.

[SirFozzie]

As pretty much expected, France is dominating so far.. and Silvestre gets credit for the France goal from an awesome free kick cross by Zidane that Silvestre basically glanced.

Zidane=Man of the Tournament so far.

[bbor]

What's with Portugal's lineup?

Couto, Rui Costa, Nuno Gomes all on the bench.

Any of these guys get carded in the 1st game?

Perhaps they are being saved for the MUST win game VS Spain?

[SirFozzie]

1-0 at the half. Croatia somewhat woke up in the 2nd part of the half, but France is the better side so far.

[B & B]

latter stages of the first half saw some inspiration from the croatians. zidane has been playing well, but ball challenges as a whole are lacking for this talent level - IMO.

[SirFozzie]

1-1.

Silvestre (who had his goal taken away, they said Croatian Igor Tudor put it past his own keeper) gives away his second penalty in as many games, with a CLUMSY challenge... Surprised he didn't get booked.

Barthez almost saved his ass again, diving the right way, but this time the penalty (by Rapaic) is too well placed.

France will want to go forward now, they don't want their game against Switzerland to mean anything on their side.

[SirFozzie]

To quote the english soccer announcers..

"Well, now.. what about this!"

Prso puts it in on a left footer into the roof of the net after Desailly failed to clear, and Croatia now have 35 minutes until they throw the group into utter chaos... 2-1 Croatia

[SirFozzie]

And France equalizes. Trezeguet. One of the better games of the tournament so far

[3ric]

I'm as always surprised that Danish referee Kim Milton Nielsen (who's in the current game) still is considered a world-class referee. Sure, his command of the game is very good, he maintains a good flow, but he's horrid at separating actual fouls from play acting. Remember, he's the one who sent off David Beckham in the Argentina game 1998. Diego Simeone admitted afterwards he made a meal out of Beckham's touch. He hasn't gotten less gullible since.

[SirFozzie]

Looks like a draw. France are not through yet.

France +1 Goal Differential, 4 Points
England +2 Goal Differential, 3 Points
Croatia, +0 Goal Differential, 2 Points
Switzerland, -3 Goal Differential, 1 Point.

If France beats or draws against the Swiss, they are through.

If the Swiss beat France, they are through (they'd have the first tiebreaker, in H2H), and France would be out.

England can advance with a draw against Croatia. Croatia must beat England to advance.

So.. you can consider this a psuedo playoff round, with one team needing a draw to advance, and the other needing a victory.

[MIJB#19]

Looks like a draw. France are not through yet.

France +1 Goal Differential, 4 Points
England +2 Goal Differential, 3 Points
Croatia, +0 Goal Differential, 2 Points
Switzerland, -3 Goal Differential, 1 Point.

If France beats or draws against the Swiss, they are through.

If the Swiss beat France, they are through (they'd have the first tiebreaker, in H2H), and France would be out.

England can advance with a draw against Croatia. Croatia must beat England to advance.

So.. you can consider this a psuedo playoff round, with one team needing a draw to advance, and the other needing a victory.Thanks for doing my job... :rolleyes:
Edit: But you're not 100% correct on the France-Swiss situation, see below.

[Alf]

If France loses and England draws Croatia => France still goes because of head to head advantage over England

[Alf]

Matthijs has again predicted the correct results today. Impressive !

[MIJB#19]

Scenario in group B.
Scores:
England 3-0 Switzerland
Croatia 2-2 France

Standings:
1. France 4 pt (4-3)
2. England 3 pt (4-2)
3. Croatia 2 pt (2-2)
4. Switzerland 1 pt (0-3)

Next up:
England-Croatia
Switzerland-France
England need a draw to advance, plain and simple.
Croatia need a victory to advance, plain and simple.
Switzerland need a victory to advance, yet in the case of an England draw need to win by 3 goals over France.
France advance with a draw, yet a loss by 2 goals won't be lethal if England draws.
MIJ scenario: France 2-0 Switzerland, England 1-1 Croatia
Croatia looked so good, yet England won't let them get through and knock them out in the no-win-no-lose-scenario. France has been good, but not great, yet the Swiss are the weakest of the group by far.

The nine possible scenarios:
France win, England win -> 1. France, 2. England
France win, England tie -> 1. France, 2. England
France win, Croatia win -> 1. France, 2. Croatia
France tie, England win -> 1. England, 2. France
France tie, England tie -> 1. France, 2. England
France tie, Croatia win -> 1. ****, 2. ****
Switzerland win, England win -> 1. England, 2. Switzerland
Switzerland win, England tie -> 1. ####, 2. ####
Switzerland win, Croatia win -> 1. Croatia, 2. Switzerland
**** = France or Croatia based on best goal difference, most goal scored or last case France winning tie-breakers
#### = England or Switzerland winners based on a best goal difference, France or Switzerland second based on best goal difference or if tied a scenario I can't oversee with France holding tiebreakers over goals scores, but the Swiss possibly taking the qf-ticket based on h-t-h if England results are excluded after England get's the group victory

[MIJB#19]

If France loses and England draws Croatia => France still goes because of head to head advantage over EnglandNope, it will be a 3-way tie and the goal difference will be the next tiebreaker.
With England at +3 they advance, France will need to keep it at -1 (better goal difference )or -2 (big mystery scenario)

EDIT: Clarification

England draw, France lose:

France 4 pt
England 4 pt
Swiss 4 pt
Croatia 3 pt - out

next h-t-h
France 3 pt
England 3 pt
Swiss 3 pt

next h-t-h goal difference
France +1 and Fra-Swi score
England +2
Swiss -3 and Fra-Swi score

what happens next if Swiss win by 2 will be a big question:
Will England be excluded and the others re-tiebroken -> Swiss win
Will tiebreaking advance to next step: goal in h-t-h (same), goal difference in all (same), goals in all (Fra > Swi) -> France win

[MIJB#19]

Matthijs has again predicted the correct results today. Impressive !Only half way there for the second round of group matches, don't jinx me know...;)

EDIT:
By the way, you're leading the We-dot-win-dot-com Euro2004 prediction competition ahead of Chief Rum and a volleyball buddy. :)

EDIT2:
I can't believe this is already the 30th post "wasted" in this thread alone by me... :o

[MIJB#19]

I just had to bump this thread, knowing it would look like a tripledola...

In 8 hours and 15 minutes, my crystal ball will be tested again. I did lose confidence in my Sweden-Italy prediction. With Totti suspended for 3 games, I wonder what Italy can do now. It wasn't like Totti played like the big leader against Denmark, but now the team will rely even more on Del Piero (who looks over the top) feeding Vieri (who has just had his worst season in 6 years).
Bulgaria-Denmark
MIJ scenario: 1-1 draw
Denmark were impressive against Italy, yet Bulgaria will be detirmened. Denmark looks a bit better, yet Bulgaria are not to be underestimated, despite the 0-5 trashing. I suspect a close game with Bulgaria upsetting Denmark a little.

Italy-Sweden
MIJ scenario: depends on other game
Both teams advance with a victory. With Italy's mission depending on the other game, I have two scenario's for this game.
With a Bulgarian victory or draw, I suspect this game will be a no-lose at all cost game and end in a 1-1 draw.
A Danish victory will require Italy to go for it, which isn't their style. Sweden have no need to attack, but the probably will anyway. Despite that I see Sweden as a semi-finalists, in this scenario I wouldn't be surprised to see Italy steal an undeserved 1-0 victory.

[Darkiller]

Disapointing performance for France.
We clearly dominate the game but we are unable to score a proper goal and our defense commits unusual mistakes.

We will have to play better than that if we want to reach the Championship finals again.

Zidane is the best player of Euro 2004 so far.
Although he didn't "technically" score yesterday, his overall play during the game was much better than against england. He's playing really well right now.
Zizou was named "Player of Euro 2000" last time, let's see if he can repeat this time again.

Overall, I'm disapointed we made those mistakes yesterday and it's a pity that we will have to play that 3rd game against swizerland with pressure.

[MIJB#19]

Zidane is the best player of Euro 2004 so far.
Although he didn't "technically" score yesterday, his overall play during the game was much better than against england. He's playing really well right now.
Zizou was named "Player of Euro 2000" last time, let's see if he can repeat this time again.One trick that the Dutch television kept replaying was the trick in the first half on a short corner kick from Henry(?) to Zidane. Zidane lobbed the ball with his heel to Gallas, who headed the ball over the goal.

[Darkiller]

Yeah that was superb ;-)

[MIJB#19]

Wanna see Dutch payback time humor over the Germans "Ihr seid nicht dabei" way of making fun of the Dutch missing WC2002?

Internet poll from the German newspaper Bild, who are the most aggressive towards the Dutch football team:
<IMG src=http://www.nu.nl/img.db?341971+s(350!x341!) alt="Wer gewinnt die WM?">

Edit:
You know what? This deserves it's own thread!

[andy m]

ROONEY

[Mac Howard]

The best thing for France now is to lose by one goal to Switzerland. That will guarantee them second place regardless of what happens in the England/Croatia match and probably give them Greece in the next round :)

[Darkiller]

hmm not sure about that Mac,
for that to happen (them losing by 1 or 2 goals and still getting the 2nd place), they need a draw from the game England/Croatia.

[MIJB#19]

The best thing for France now is to lose by one or two goals to Switzerland. That will guarantee them second place regardless of what happens in the England/Croatia match and probably give them Greece in the next round :)Not true, since head-to-head are the #1 tiebreakers. Like I explained above, an England-Croatia draw and Swiss victory will lead to a nailbiting scenario for the French-talking countries.

Tie breakers
If teams finish level on points, then the winner of the match between the sides in question will finish highest, or should they have drawn, goal difference, followed by goals scored, qualifying record for the 2002 FIFA World Cup and UEFA EURO 2004™, a fair play ranking and finally either a penalty shoot-out or drawing of lots.

What I really hate is that I have yet to see what the call is on a Switzerland victory by less then 3 goals and an English draw. Will France advance on goals scored or are the English disregarded after they win the group NFL style?

NFL style, it could even get worse for England in the case if the Swiss winning by 6:
Swiss +3, England +2, France -5 -> Swiss win group
France beat England head-to-head -> France are second

The bad part of this is that France can influence who they'll play, unlike the teams in group A (Greece, Portgual and Spain).

[Mac Howard]

Yes, I've just been looking on the UEFA site for the tie breaker and the first is the head to head result between the two teams involved. I thought it was goal difference. As you say, only if England and Croatia draw will the goal difference come into play because three teams (Croatia, England and France) will be on four points and each team will have beaten and lost to one of the other two.

Interesting question here. If three teams have four points and they go to goal difference do they do this merely to decide the first and then go back to the remaining two head to head or use the goal difference to decide the two qualifiers?

I can see court cases here :)

[Darkiller]

the French sports daily "L'Equipe" explained this morning that if England/Croatia ends up a draw and France LOSES by a ONE or TWO goal difference (maximum) to Switzerland then France is in the Quarter-finals.

[Ajaxab]

Spoiler















I love seeing Italy's defensive tactics get punished. I don't know what Trappatoni was thinking taking off Cassano in the 70th minute. I do know Italians like to put the wall up after they score, but Del Piero should have been the first guy to head off, not Cassano. And what about Ibrahimovic's goal? Lucky? Skillful? Both? Hopefully Ajax can hold onto this guy.

[SirFozzie]

Status of Group C:

Sweden 4 Pts, +5 GD
Denmark 4 Pts, +2 GD
Italy, 2 Pts, 0 GD
Bulgaria, 0 Pts, -7 GD

This has potential to be another clusterfuck.

If there is a clear winner in Denmark-Sweden, they are automatically through, and the loser needs Italy to draw or lose to Bulgaria.

If there is a draw, and Italy beat Bulgaria, then we have a big batch of goofy. An Extra Large batch of goofy, even.

I THINK Sweden are through, with +5 GD. It will then come down to goal differential between Denmark and Italy (they drew, so H2H won't decide it), so Italy is automatically through if they beat Bulgaria by two goals, and score at least 3. (3-1 gets them through on total goals scored).

[Coder]

Italy dominates for 70 minutes... if they hadn't done their "all on defense" move they'd have won... 4-0.. at least.. Isaksson was amazing though.. saved the day for us.. Zlatan's goal is skill.. hehe.. look at him.. he's unbelievable every time he has the ball. Whenever a Swedish player had the ball I felt he was going to lose it, but when Zlatan had it, the thing was glued to his feet. He got more space against Bulgaria (of course), so you saw more of it there.

But honestly.. this was Italy's game.. they lost because of their hedgehog tactics. Sweden played 4 forwards at the end.. never before have I seen Sweden play with such an enormous attack.

I still haven't digested this... I'm.. wow... deserved tie? Not really... Wonderful tie? Heck yeah

[Katon]

Status of Group C:

Sweden 4 Pts, +5 GD
Denmark 4 Pts, +2 GD
Italy, 2 Pts, 0 GD
Bulgaria, 0 Pts, -7 GD

This has potential to be another clusterfuck.

If there is a clear winner in Denmark-Sweden, they are automatically through, and the loser needs Italy to draw or lose to Bulgaria.

If there is a draw, and Italy beat Bulgaria, then we have a big batch of goofy. An Extra Large batch of goofy, even.

I THINK Sweden are through, with +5 GD. It will then come down to goal differential between Denmark and Italy (they drew, so H2H won't decide it), so Italy is automatically through if they beat Bulgaria by two goals, and score at least 3. (3-1 gets them through on total goals scored).

Well, H2H results are actually relevant in the case of a draw - to be precise, goals scored. Sweden will have 1+x goals, where Sweden-Denmark finishes x-x; Denmark will have x goals; Italy will have one goal. So basically, if Sweden draw, they win the group. Unless Italy beat Bulgaria by six and Sweden-Denmark finishes goalless, that is.

[MIJB#19]

Scenario in group C.
Scores:
Bulgaria 0-2 Denmark
Italy 1-1 Sweden

Standings:
1. Sweden 4 pt (6-1)
2. Denmark 4 pt (2-0)
3. Italy 2 pt (1-1)
4. Bulgaria 0 pt (0-7) - knocked out

Next up:
Sweden-Denmark
Italy-Bulgaria
Sweden have an easy goal, draw 1-1 or higher and advance as group winners, 0-0 means that Italy need a victory by 5 or 6 to win the group.
Denmark can't settle for a draw, unless it's 2-2, in case Italy wins by 2 or 3 goals and see themselves knocked out with 5 points.
A Danish victory means winning the group for them.
Scary thing is, if Sweden and Denmark draw 2-2 or higher, Italy is knocked out based on tie breakers, no matter how big they beat Bulgaria.
Italy have a tough case, yet winning is a must anyway. To be sure, 2 goals difference is the least to be in the race, yet they have given it out of hands.
MIJ scenario: Italy-Bulgaria 3-0, Sweden-Denmark 2-2
A tough situation, especially for Italy. Bulgaria have nothing to play for and miss their star player Stilian Petrov in the last game. Now, I don't see Bulgaria do their job of keeping things exciting and lose big. The Scandinavian derby can go everywhere, both deserve to advance, but I bet one will be knocked out. In this scenario, however, both advance based on the number of goals.

The nine possible scenarios:
Sweden win, Italy win -> 1. Sweden, 2. Italy
Sweden win, Italy tie -> 1. Sweden, 2. Denmark
Sweden win, Italy lose -> 1. Sweden, 2. Denmark
Sweden tie, Italy win -> 1. ****, 2. ****
Sweden tie, Italy tie -> 1. Sweden, 2. Denmark
Sweden tie, Italy lose -> 1. Sweden, 2. Denmark
Denmark win, Italy win -> 1. Denmark, 2. Italy
Denmark win, Italy tie -> 1. Denmark, 2. Sweden
Denamrk win, Italy lose -> 1. Denmark, 2. Sweden
**** = Sweden, Italy or Denmark based on the following:
1. goals scored in the head-to-head amongst the three
Sweden 1 & Swe-Dan, Italy 1, Denmark 0 & Swe-Dan
2. goal difference in all games
Sweden +5, Denmark +2, Italy 0 & Ita-Bul
3. goals scored in all games
Sweden 6 & Swe-Dan, Denmark 2 & Swe-Dan, Italy 1 & Ita-Bul
4. Qualifying Results
1. Sweden, 2. Italy, 3. Denmark

[MIJB#19]

Can't you people wait for my updates? :D

Edit:
Anyway, I can see it happen now, the Swedish and Danes make a deal to draw 2-2 (or 3-3, or 4-4, or whatever) and eliminate the Italians, no matter how big their victory will be.

[SirFozzie]

Just saw the Sweden goal on the FSW replay of the game.

If that isn't the flukiest, cheekiest, most ARE YOU KIDDING ME goal of the tournament.. Euro drug testing will have to include the search for somebody smuggling 10,000 four leaf clovers in their hindquarters

[BreizhManu]

Isaksson was amazing though..

BTW, looks like Rennes reached an agreement with Djurgården, so he will sign for 3 years, joining Kallstrom and replacing Cech

[Alf]

Manu, that is a good news !

[3ric]

Isaksson is a bargain for Rennes at that price - they'd better hurry to get his signature on paper before other clubs start bidding for him. With his performance last night, scouts were sure to take notice.

[Coder]

Isaksson is a bargain for Rennes at that price - they'd better hurry to get his signature on paper before other clubs start bidding for him. With his performance last night, scouts were sure to take notice.


Definately.. reading that Rennes only offerred Djurgården €700,000 for Isaksson to start off with makes me think that after this performance he'll be worth a lot more. The first offer was a disgrace for a number one keeper in the Swedish national team who's only 21 years old. Cech fetched Rennes what? €7 million? I'm sure there are teams willing to pay at least €2 million for Isaksson today.

[BreizhManu]

Definately.. reading that Rennes only offerred Djurgården €700,000 for Isaksson to start off with makes me think that after this performance he'll be worth a lot more. The first offer was a disgrace for a number one keeper in the Swedish national team who's only 21 years old. Cech fetched Rennes what? €7 million? I'm sure there are teams willing to pay at least €2 million for Isaksson today.

yeah but the main thing is that is contract ended in December, so 1.7M€ + 20% of the next sale (I read that was included, and probably some other clauses) is not a bad deal for Djurgården.

[BreizhManu]

Dola

and Cech was sold to Chelsea for 11M€ not 7M€ :D

[Desnudo]

Dola

and Cech was sold to Chelsea for 11M€ not 7M€ :D

I look forward to next season. The classic scenario of buying a team (Chelsea) and watching how the chemistry plays out. It looks like England has its very own George Steinbrenner.

[Katon]

I look forward to next season. The classic scenario of buying a team (Chelsea) and watching how the chemistry plays out. It looks like England has its very own George Steinbrenner.

Actually, the "buying a team" bit was last summer. This year we're not going to be quite as active. I'd also quibble with the Abramovich-Steinbrenner analogy. Steinbrenner is notorious for interfering; Abramovich has just hired a coach (Mourinho) who insists on having complete control and has in the past walked out on a team (Benfica) after just eleven games when they refused to give him that.

Watching Holland-Czech Republic now, and that Robben kid is pretty good. Why hasn't a big club picked him up already? :D

Petr Cech has looked reasonably good so far. Almost everything he's had to deal with over the past game-and-a-half has been either unsaveable or routine, but he has dealt with everything he had a chance of dealing with.

[Chief Rum]

Abramovich has just hired a coach (Mourinho) who insists on having complete control and has in the past walked out on a team (Benfica) after just eleven games when they refused to give him that.

I'm guessing it would take him longer to walk out on this one, considering he's going to miss the first ten matches of his Chelsea career. :D

CR

[BreizhManu]

horrible job by the referee, how can he not give at least a yellow card to robben ?

[BreizhManu]

Great match, the oranges made the same error as Italy against Sweden, trying to stay in defense isn't a good thing...

Else as I said, horrible job by the referee, at least on the tackle from behind by robben and on the red card (it was mainly nedved diving).

[Katon]

I loved it. Match of the tournament so far. Great spectacle and both future Chelsea players were superb. What's not to enjoy?

The Czechs are now the only team to have won their group after the first two rounds of matches, but Holland also ought to go through - they should beat Latvia and I can't see Germany beating the Czechs.

[Ajaxab]

Was Advocaat not paying attention to the Italy-Sweden game? Don't know what he was thinking taking Robben off to put on Bosvelt? Bosvelt of all people! How is this guy even on the team in the first place?

I listened to the game on the BBC. Was the officiating really as awful as the BBC team made it out to be? It sounded like the ref denied Holland a few penalties in the first half and then screwed them over with Heitinga's second yellow.

I'm glad the Dutch get to play Latvia in the next game, but they have to hope the Czechs give an effort.

[BreizhManu]

I listened to the game on the BBC. Was the officiating really as awful as the BBC team made it out to be? It sounded like the ref denied Holland a few penalties in the first half and then screwed them over with Heitinga's second yellow.

didn't watch the first half so I can't tell for the penalties, but yes he screwed them on the red card (there was a little foul but nothing that deserved a yellow).

[3ric]

There was a situation with a blatant holding of Nistelrooy's shirt (in the box) that I couldn't believe the ref ignored... and the Heitinga ejection wasn't deserved at all.

[Alf]

Germans got away with it too when Latvia dersved a penalty for a shirt pulling in the box??? Damn it !

[Crapshoot]

Was Advocaat not paying attention to the Italy-Sweden game? Don't know what he was thinking taking Robben off to put on Bosvelt? Bosvelt of all people! How is this guy even on the team in the first place?

I listened to the game on the BBC. Was the officiating really as awful as the BBC team made it out to be? It sounded like the ref denied Holland a few penalties in the first half and then screwed them over with Heitinga's second yellow.

I'm glad the Dutch get to play Latvia in the next game, but they have to hope the Czechs give an effort.

You make the dangerous assumption that Advocaat is capable of intelligent thought...

[Desnudo]

You make the dangerous assumption that Advocaat is capable of intelligent thought...

He seems to enjoy pointing the finger at his players in the media. It wasn't my fault! They just didn't do it right! Contrast that against any of the top coaches who always take responsibility publicly, even it's not really their fault.

[scooter]

What a difference between those two games today. The Germany-Latvia game was the second worse game of the tournament (behind Bulgaria-Denmark). The Latvians deserved the win. Their forward Verpakovskis is pretty frisky. His agent may be getting a few calls after this tournament is over. I thought he deserved a penalty when Baumann and Worns halled him down. I thought the ref was giving Germany the benefit of the doubt on most of the calls in the match. Dismal effort by the German forwards.

The second game was a jewel. I saved it on Tivo and have even talked my wife into watching it. That is the way the game should be played - wide open, end-to-end. I thought van Nistelrooy should have gotten a penalty - he was Assaulted by Ujfalusi (that's with a capital A), but he got the make-up call on his goal. I know that he was not "offside" per the rules, but that rule is wrong! You can't tell me he didn't have an advantage from lingering in the box like that. The Czechs showed great character. Coming from one goal down against the Latvians and two goals down against the Dutch - that's story-book stuff. Van der Sar was unlucky to play so well without getting any points out the game - he deserved them, he was brilliant. Nedved was unlucky not to score on that long shot he had that rattled the crossbar.

Petr Cech has been steady. He hasn't overly impressed me yet. He had a couple good saves today, but I thought most of them were from proper positioning instead of being spectacular. I hope his role with Chelsea will be to push Cudicini for a starting role, but he is still young, and Cudicini is quality! (Cech definitely provides better cover than Ambrosini did this last year!)

[MIJB#19]

Just woke up after a tiring day ended by a 2-3 loss of our national team (note that I use our, despite the loss, unlike the most 'fans' would do).

My comments on Czech Republic-Netherlands:
1. This was the game of the tournament.
2. Robben is back to his world-class form, unlike I feared.
3. Bringing in Bosvelt to mark a world-class player like Nedved is a bad decission.
4. Pulling Robben looked like suicide, yet I agree that letting a player play more then 60 minutes after the injuries Robben had means wasting the player for the tournament and possibly destroying his career at age 20.
5. Van der Sar was awesome, but he could finally show this because the Dutch defenders played their worst game in, like, 20 years.
6. Reading the objective comments, I finally agree, the referee scr*wed our chances to not lose this game, not awarding about 3 penalties (on Dutch average meaning at least 1 goal) and Heitinga sent of for Nedved's amazing acting.
7. Going all-out-defense is one thing this Dutch selection can't, so we shouldn't gamble on it.
8. I won't get used to this color orange, let alone the on/off button printed on Van der Sar's jersey.
9. The Czechs are semi-finalists material, yet we (the Dutch fans) knew that before the tournament started.
10. Van Nistelrooij has proven he can score in consecutive games for the Dutch team, at last!
11. Having to hope that the Czechs try not to lose in a game that has no meaning to them is only 'wishful thinking'. Not to mention, do these Czechs really want to play this Robben and Van Nistelrooij duo again? I really doubt it.

That said, it's time for my 'traditional' scenario update. :rolleyes:

[MIJB#19]

Scenario in group D.
Scores:
Germany 0-0 Latvia
Czech Republic 3-2 Netherlands

Standings:
1. Czech Republic 6 pt (5-3) - clinched group victory, clinched quarterfinals berth
2. Germany 2 pt (1-1)
3. Netherlands 1 pt (3-4)
4. Latvia 1 pt (1-2)
Netherlands hold tiebreakers over Latvia based on most goals scored in all games.

Next up:
Germany-Czech Republic
Latvia-Netherlands
Germany can't settle for a draw, because a winner in the other gamw would kno-ck them out.
A German loss will lethal, unless they end up with at least the same number of goals as the Dutch and the Dutch draw 0-0.
Latvia needs a victory to advance, plus Germany not winning.
Netherlands need a victory to advance in a German draw scenario.
Netherlands could advance with a 1-1 draw if they score more goals in all games then a losing German team, or if Germany lose by 2 goals.
MIJ scenario: Netherlands-Latvia 4-0, Czech Republic-Germany 0-2
I decided not to write a 'wishfull thinking' scenario. Just face it, the Czechs have nothing to win and are allowed to lose 10-0. plus, I think the Czechs are really happy to get rid of 'Oranje'. The Dutch will set things straight and win big.


The nine possible scenarios:
Germany win, Netherlands win -> 1. Czech Republic, 2. Germany
Germany win, Netherlands tie -> 1. Czech Republic, 2. Germany
Germany win, Latvia win -> 1. Czech Republic, 2. Germany
Germany tie, Netherlands win -> 1. Czech Republic, 2. Netherlands
Germany tie, Netherlands tie -> 1. Czech Republic, 2. Germany
Germany tie, Latvia win -> 1. Czech Republic, 2. Latvia
Germany lose, Netherlands win -> 1. Czech Republic, 2. Netherlands
Germany lose, Netherlands tie -> 1. Czech Republic, 2. ****
Germany lose, Latvia win -> 1. Czech Republic, 2. Latvia
**** = Netherlands or Germany based on:
most goals agains Latvia (Netherlands 0 & Ned-Lat; Germany 0)
then best goal difference in all games (Netherlands -1; Germany 0 & Cse-Ger)
then most goal scored in all games (Netherlands 3; Germany 1 & Cse-Ger)
or last case Germany winning tie-breakers based on qualifying results

[MIJB#19]

He seems to enjoy pointing the finger at his players in the media. It wasn't my fault! They just didn't do it right! Contrast that against any of the top coaches who always take responsibility publicly, even it's not really their fault.Advocaat took responsibility for the Robben-Bosvelt substitution as more then likely the #1 reason of losing, with 12 million Dutchmen watching him.
Besides, the way the team defended, we could have lost 2-6 as easy (or 5-6, knowing that we should have been given one or more penalties and that we were very unlucky in finishing.)

I agree that Advocaat hardly ever showed the quality of a top coach, but listening to his reasoning, I have to agree that Robben had to go off. Robben played his first game in 3 months (if not more), you can't risk a 20-year old to play more then about 60 minutes in such a big game and after such a long absence. Unless you want him to get injured again and be unavailable for the rest of the tournament and in important WC2006 qualifying matches. Having followed Robben closer the past years, it's something that has happened to Robben before and has probably wasted Marc Overmars' skills as world-class winger.

Not in favor of Bosvelt, however, Advocaat should have brought on a player that would be able to mark Nedved without fearing for a second yellow card, Michael Reiziger, the last one on the bench capable of doing that. Even better would have been brining Overmars for Robben, a fresh player of alomst the same caliber and talent like Robben.

[Alf]

I had France-Czech Republic for the final, so far it appears I am good for at least the Czechs being good. For France, that remains to be seen....

[MIJB#19]

I had France-Czech Republic for the final, so far it appears I am good for at least the Czechs being good. For France, that remains to be seen....They'd better not beat Switzerland then, or else the French might end up facing the Czechs in the semi's.

[MIJB#19]

MIJ order of strength:
01 (05) Czech Republic - Hyped as potential champs and shown that against the Dutch. Now, I fear the worthless game against Germany could hurt the team form.
02 (02) Sweden - First an amazing performance, then a good 1-1 draw against Totti-less Italy. I still think being at your best on day 3 of a 3-week tournament will cost you later on.
03 (01) France - Not one, but two escapes only eventual champs get? Nope, this team is tired and not going to win it all.
04 (04) Netherlands - Narrow escape in game one, given too little game two. Semifinals material up front, but odds are slim that the Czechs will help them survive.
05 (07) Denmark - Fun to watch and with Gronkjaer back a team to watch and for opponents to watch out for.
06 (08) England - A good bouncing back against the Swiss, but Croatia is a level higher. Still a contender with the tools to reach the semi's.
07 (06) Spain - Young and talented, but not showing the results. Champs in the making. For 2006 or 2008, that is.
08 (03) Italy - No Totti, no glory. Italy are good, but playing defensive when you are better seems to not pay off anymore.
09 (10) Croatia - Failed to slaughter the Swiss in the heat, but against France they did show why they are expected darkhorses.
10 (09) Portugal - Despite the win over Russia, I keep with my earlier comments. Figo and co look dropping fast and the new generation is not ready after a long season.
11 (11) Germany - The WC2002 runners-up were the worst German team ever fielded? Nah, Euro2004 is worse. Never underestimate Germany, like I do now...
12 (12) Greece - The upset of the tournament thusfar and only the weakest opponent to go. Prepare yourselfs for a 3-0 loss... In the quarterfinals.
13 (14) Russia - With the best player sent home, this is the Russia we are familiair with, a team to fear. Don't be surprised if they beat Greece.
14 (15) Latvia - The little kid keeps improving. They can defend, but for a real stunt, you need to beat the Dutch. I am not convinced of that being possible.
15 (13) Switzerland - How on earth did this team reach Euro2004 ahead of Ireland and Russia at full stength?
16 (16) Bulgaria - See you back in WC2006, if you can keep Island, Hungary and either Croatia or Sweden behind you.

[Katon]

What a difference between those two games today. The Germany-Latvia game was the second worse game of the tournament (behind Bulgaria-Denmark). The Latvians deserved the win. Their forward Verpakovskis is pretty frisky. His agent may be getting a few calls after this tournament is over. I thought he deserved a penalty when Baumann and Worns halled him down. I thought the ref was giving Germany the benefit of the doubt on most of the calls in the match. Dismal effort by the German forwards.

Don't forget Switzerland-Croatia, one of the worst matches in European Championship history. Other than that, I have to agree.


Petr Cech has been steady. He hasn't overly impressed me yet. He had a couple good saves today, but I thought most of them were from proper positioning instead of being spectacular. I hope his role with Chelsea will be to push Cudicini for a starting role, but he is still young, and Cudicini is quality! (Cech definitely provides better cover than Ambrosini did this last year!)

Don't knock Ambrosio. He was signed as a third-choice 'keeper (behind Cudicini and Jurgen Macho) and played better than anyone could have expected. He's almost certainly gone now that Macho's fit and Cech has arrived, but he'll take the best wishes of most Chelsea fans with him. Neil Sullivan, on the other hand . . .

Cech looks very good for someone who's still about a decade short of the normal peak age for goalies; I don't think he'll replace Carlo straight away, but he's going to be good enough to have a real run at the starting job in a year or two.

If Arjen Robben can play like that in his first real match back from a major injury, he is more than welcome to the Bridge. On the other hand, while taking him off was a perfectly reasonable idea, why put on Bosvelt? The Dutch are swimming in decent wingers; why not make a like-for-like substitution and keep the system which was working perfectly well? *

[Coder]

Italy has got their conspiracy theories flying all over now... they've decided that Sweden and Denmark are planning to play 2-2 to eliminate Italy and that we're all nasty crooks. Even Gazetta dello Sport, a usually very serious newspaper, is now into this conspiracy theory.. Everyone but Italy is now responsible for their poor start to the Euro 2004. One reporter wrote in a column that Totti shouldn't have apologized for the spitting, he should have kicked the Danish player instead. The excuse about the shoes being too warm and that Totti was provoked are going from being laughed at to being "the truth"...

[MIJB#19]

Italy has got their conspiracy theories flying all over now... they've decided that Sweden and Denmark are planning to play 2-2 to eliminate Italy and that we're all nasty crooks. Even Gazetta dello Sport, a usually very serious newspaper, is now into this conspiracy theory.. Everyone but Italy is now responsible for their poor start to the Euro 2004. One reporter wrote in a column that Totti shouldn't have apologized for the spitting, he should have kicked the Danish player instead. The excuse about the shoes being too warm and that Totti was provoked are going from being laughed at to being "the truth"...If Italy had shown the play Oranje and the Czechs did, or had had the same referee, they'd have a point.
The Swedish and Danes better play 3-3 than 2-2 then, to avoid all conspiracy theories. For instance with a last second penalty kick rewarded and scored, though a last second missed penalty from Denmark would be even more fun.

If Arjen Robben can play like that in his first real match back from a major injury, he is more than welcome to the Bridge. On the other hand, while taking him off was a perfectly reasonable idea, why put on Bosvelt? The Dutch are swimming in decent wingers; why not make a like-for-like substitution and keep the system which was working perfectly well? *True, winger for winger made more sense, even after hearing the 'Advocaat of the devil' do his word. 'Somebody' decided to pull an attacker for a defender. Not what I would do against this Czech team and especially not Bosvelt to mark Nedved. Bringing a marker for Nedved did make sense, I think. After Seedorf and Heitinga got their yellow cards, Nedved had all the space on the left wing to cross inside to shine and fire at will...

[scooter]

Don't forget Switzerland-Croatia, one of the worst matches in European Championship history. Other than that, I have to agree.

I didn't mention that one because I didn't see it. I actually got lucky as my cable company "was having problems" last Sunday and I didn't get the broadcast. I supposed to be getting a credit on my bill for not getting the game. Needless to say, I was extremely worried about not seeing the later game (England-France), but they seemed to figure things out by the later game so I got to see it.

[SirFozzie]

Here's the list from Soccernet:

Group A
Greece: Will be guaranteed a place in the last eight should they draw with Russia. Greece can still go through with a defeat, should Portugal beat Spain. However, the runners-up spot would go down to goal difference.

Spain: Only need a point to progress, and can top the group should they win and Greece fail to. That also applies should both games finish level, with Spain involved in a higher scoring match.

Should both Spain and Greece win, Spain can finish top if they win by a greater margin or achieve victory by the same margin in a higher scoring game.

Should both Spain and Greece lose, Spain can still qualify if they lose by a lesser margin or lose by the same margin in a higher scoring game.

Greece are currently ahead of Spain on goals scored.

Portugal: Can only qualify if they beat Spain in the Iberian derby, and they can still win the group should Greece only draw with Russia.

Russia: Eliminated.
Group B

France: Only need a draw with Switzerland to go through. Victory would guarantee top place in the group. Defeat would see Switzerland move above them in the table, and France would be eliminated if either Croatia or England were also to win.

England: A point will guarantee the runners-up spot in the group. They can top the group with victory over Croatia, should France fail to beat Switzerland. They can also top the group with a draw if France were to lose. Defeat would mean elimination.

Croatia: Have to beat England to qualify. They can top the group should France fail to win and Croatia win by a scoreline of 2-0 or greater.

Switzerland: Must beat France to have any chance of making the last eight. They will go through should either Croatia or England win, but if that game finishes level, then Switzerland would have to beat France by three goals to progress.
Group C
Sweden: Only need a draw with Denmark to qualify as group winners. Defeat would still see them qualify if Italy failed to beat Bulgaria.

Denmark: Will definitely go through should they win or draw 2-2, or higher, with Sweden. Defeat would still see them qualify if Italy failed to beat Bulgaria. See 'Italy' for other draw permutations.

Italy: Must beat Bulgaria to stand any chance of making the knockout stages.

An win, coupled with a victory for either Denmark or Sweden, will send them through.

If Sweden and Denmark draw 0-0, then Italy will go through ahead of the Danes as they scored a goal against Sweden.

If Sweden and Denmark draw 1-1, then Italy will have to win by at least two goals to put themselves in contention. Should they win by two goals, any other scoreline than 2-0, they will go through.

If Sweden and Denmark draw 1-1, and Italy win 2-0, it will go to the next factor. That is points gained in the qualifing competitions for the 2002 World Cup and Euro 2004. Both gained 37 points. But Italy have a goal difference of +25 to Denmark's +22, so Italy would go through.

If Sweden and Denmark draw 2-2, Italy are out regardless of their performance against Bulgaria.

Italy can only top the group if Denmark and Sweden draw 0-0, and Italy beat Bulgaria by 7-1 or a equivalent higher score, or by winning by seven goals, due to points gained in the qualifing competitions for the 2002 World Cup and Euro 2004.

Bulgaria: Eliminated.
Group D

Czech Republic: Qualified as group winners.

Germany: Victory will guarantee runners-up spot. They could go through by drawing with the Czech Republic, should Holland and Latvia also draw.

Netherlands: A win for Holland will only be any good should Germany fail to beat group winners the Czech Republic. A draw could put them into contention.

Should Germany lose and Holland draw, Holland will go through as they will have a '0' goal difference.

Latvia: A win for Latvia will only be any good should Germany fail to beat group winners the Czech Republic. They can only go through by beating Holland, as a draw would rule them out due to Holland's 1-1 draw with Germany, coupled with Latvia's goalless draw.

[MIJB#19]

Here's the list from Soccernet:

yadda-yaddaI still think my own scenario posts are better, though I am not objective enough to comapre the two... ;)

[MIJB#19]

Here's the list from Soccernet:
Netherlands: A win for Holland will only be any good should Germany fail to beat group winners the Czech Republic. A draw could put them into contention.

Should Germany lose and Holland draw, Holland will go through as they will have a '0' goal difference.Sorry, Soccernet, this is not true.

A draw is only good if it is 1-1 or higher.
At 0-0, "we" need the Germans to lose by 2, by 0-1 or by 1-2.

[SirFozzie]

My picks for the day:

Russia 0 - 0 Greece: Russia's playing for pride.. but Greece is playing for a place in the final eight, and will not attack unless Russia goes ahead. Greece gladly accepts the draw and will take the point that gets them through.

Portugal 1-1 Spain: Portugal's gotta go balls to the wall here, and it will be a desperate crowd rooting them on. But even with the homefield advantage, I don't see them beating the Spanish. The Spanish will be keeping half an ear to the Greece-Russia game.

Spain wins the group, Greece 2nd, with Portugal being eliminated at the first hurdle (and won't there be a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth) and Russia glad to just have the single point.

[MIJB#19]

Here's the list from Soccernet:

If Sweden and Denmark draw 1-1, and Italy win 2-0, it will go to the next factor. That is points gained in the qualifing competitions for the 2002 World Cup and Euro 2004. Both gained 37 points. But Italy have a goal difference of +25 to Denmark's +22, so Italy would go through.Sorry SirFozzie, your source has to do a little bit more research.
This is bullshit.
Italy had 37 points in 16 games, Denmark 37 in 18 games.
The points per game average is used rather then the total points figure.

[SirFozzie]

*nods* Just was posting what I saw :)

[SirFozzie]

Interesting. 2nd minute goal by Russia!

That puts the fox into the henhouse, doesn't it?

[MIJB#19]

*nods* Just was posting what I saw :)I figured.
I bet you're as interested in all the scenario's as I am. :)

[SirFozzie]

yeah.. it's kind of interesting.. especially when you're really scoreboard watching the other game. Right now, I bet half of the Greece subs are listening to the Spain-Portugal audio.

[SirFozzie]

2-0 To Russia! Bulykin!

However, Portugal still needs to beat Spain to go through.

[SirFozzie]

Spain gets a bit of worry, as Greece cut the lead in half right before halftime. Spain likely to bunker down even more. Portugal's had a lot of good play so far.

[SirFozzie]

Halftime:

Russia 2-1 Greece
Spain 0-0 Portugal

Spain currently would win the group, and Greece would go through after beating Portugal H2H.

[SirFozzie]

And Portugal break the deadlock.

Portugal now will win the group, and Spain are set to go out IF the results stay the way it goes. Spain either needs a goal from Russia, or the equalizer in this game.

[SirFozzie]

Portugal wins, 1-0, and wins the group!

And it's Russia 2-1 over greece, and Greece SOMEHOW survive.

[SirFozzie]

My prediction for the group B games, and the matchups for the semifinals:

England 1-1 Croatia

England needs a draw, and they know it. Croatia is going to be on the attack, but I don't think they can break the Three Lions down. A win gives England a slight chance at the group, but likely will not be enough.

France 3-1 Swiss

The French know that a win here gets them through, AND an easier quarter final game (against Greece), so they will put the Swiss to the sword.

Quarter Finals:

Greece-France (3-0 France)
England-Portugal (2-1 Portugal)

[Katon]

Just Switzerland and Greece between France and the semifinals. At this point, you'd have to be surprised if they didn't make it.

Also, how disappointing were Spain? No team with that much attacking talent should manage just two goals in three games.

[MIJB#19]

MIJ scenario: Portugal 2-1 Spain, Greece 2-2 Russia
Russia have a reputation to defend as last round spoilers. I can see Greece almost choke with the next round in their hands. A wild game will keep things interesting all 90 minutes in both games.
But, Portugal-Spain is the obvious most exciting game of the group. Spain are the big neighbours, yet Portugal are the team needing to win. Somehow I can see Portugal escape in this game and knock-out Spain.
Well, not 100% correct, but I wasn't far off either. :cool:

[PilotMan]

I am still in shock that Spain didn't qualify. There are going to be some really pissed off fans there now. Especially with Real's faliure in the Champions League.

[Critch]

Russia managed 15 yellow cards and 2 red cards in three games. That's got to be some sort of record.

Not really surprised about Spain crashing out, it's one of the unwritten rules of World Cup and European Championship soccer. No matter how many good players Spain have, they'll disappoint. The other rule is that no matter how bad Germany play, they'll still be around longer than they should be. That's still got a good chance of occuring.

Highlight of the Championships for me so far is the last three minutes of the England v France game. I had the good fortune of being able to download the whole match with English ITV commentary, that made it all even funnier :D

One last thing about the games so far, I know that they've been dicking about with the offside laws, but doesn't Ruud Van Nistelrooy have to come onside at some point during the game? He wasn't close to onside at any point of the buildup to the Netherland's second goal v the Czech Republic, and he was a mile offside at the first goal too.

[Coder]

One last thing about the games so far, I know that they've been dicking about with the offside laws, but doesn't Ruud Van Nistelrooy have to come onside at some point during the game? He wasn't close to onside at any point of the buildup to the Netherland's second goal v the Czech Republic, and he was a mile offside at the first goal too.


There was a lot of talk about this on Swedish television after the Holland-game, and apparently the rule is that "it's a new event". Here goes, in the first event, Nistelroy is not involved in the play. Sure, he's offside, but since he's not getting the pass, he's not participating in the buildup. Then, there's this "new event" I talked about, and Nistelroy gets the ball (rebound? can't remember), and kicks it in. Nistelroy likes to run in an offside position to disturb the defenders. From what I understand, most coaches aren't thrilled about the rule implimentation, but it was explained to all of them before the tournament started (to avoid complaints).

[Desnudo]

Russia managed 15 yellow cards and 2 red cards in three games. That's got to be some sort of record.

Not really surprised about Spain crashing out, it's one of the unwritten rules of World Cup and European Championship soccer. No matter how many good players Spain have, they'll disappoint. The other rule is that no matter how bad Germany play, they'll still be around longer than they should be. That's still got a good chance of occuring.

Spain blew so many chances including Raul's wide open header at an open goal. They basically hit every part of the goal at least once, except for the back of the net. Portugal was extremely lucky to get that goal and to win.

I didn't catch Portugal's match against Russia, but in the two games I've seen him, I think Figo is really negatively impacting Portugal. So much so that it changes their whole emotional outlook and gameplay. Ballhogging, whining, and generally dogging it. What cinched it for me was when he lost the ball against Spain near their 18 yardline. He strolls back up the pitch while Ronaldo and Deco bust their asses to try and get the ball back. If they're to win in the quarters I think he needs to be on the bench. Won't happen of course.

[mordhiem]

I don't think any team in Group A was impressive at all in the group stage, especially the dire Spanish (Did Raul lose his lucky boots last summer or something?). I would back England and France to comfortably beat both Potugal and Greece, infact I would think Croatia would have a decent chance at beating Portugal as well.

[Critch]

I would back England and France to comfortably beat both Potugal and Greece.

I haven't been impressed with England so far, against France they scored against the run of play then tried to defend for the rest of the match. Against Switzerland they were distinctly second best til scoring against the run of play and they only took control when Switzerland went down to ten men.

So I don't think they can comfortably beat anybody who'll be in the next round, and they'll have to raise their game to get past Croatia.

[Mac Howard]

I think you undersestimate the effectiveness of the English game. It's ugly, yes, but it gets results.

The problem is that with the loss of Nicky Butt to a training injury they have no one who can remotely be described as a defensive midfield. Beckham, Scholes, Lampard, Gerrard - all attacking midfield players and only Gerrard with the semblance of a tackle in him.

To compensate, Eriksson has all four tackling back - hence the very defensive posture of the team. But with six players who regularly score there's no lack of scoring potential even if they allow the opposition 60% of the ball. Despite this defensive posture only Sweden have scored more goals in the first two round and only they because of the 5 against Bulgaria.

I don't like what I'm hearing from the Croation camp. They're already a cynical team and have 9 yellow cards in two matches so far and the manager and captain are openly talking about provoking the 18 year-old Wayne Rooney into a red card for retaliation. I've seen it happen before but never heard of a team openly bragging that this will be part of their tactics for the coming match.

Thank goodness Collina is in charge - the best ref in World football.

Anyway, I'm off to bed. Kickoff is at 2.45 in the morning here and I need to be wide awake for that. If England win I'll probably be here tomorrow to gloat, if they lose it'll be a couple of days before I come back with my tail between my legs :D

Here are comments from the manager:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Baric revealed that he has targeted 18-year-old Rooney for special attention, nominating Josip Simunic for the task.

"I believe we have a way to stop him," said Baric: "Rooney collects yellow cards, and let's hope a red one."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And the 'keeper:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"If we can provoke him in the right way, he'll definitely lash out," promised the goalkeeper Joey Didulica. "He's a fanatic and, trust me, when you play off emotion like that a red card is inevitable."

This could be dismissed as kidology were it not for the disclosure that Otto Baric, Croatia's curmudgeonly national coach who was 71 on Saturday, summoned his players to a special meeting last night during which the flaws in Rooney's temperament were dissected at even greater length than his strengths in front of goal. Ranked 25th in the world by Fifa, Croatia's team may be weaker than England's but not if Rooney is sent off. And Didulica was in no mood to offer apologies - or even the faintest hint of one - as he detailed the team's crude instructions.

"The manager has told us to prey on Rooney's weaknesses," said the Austria Vienna goalkeeper, whose upbringing in Australia has clearly taught him a thing or two about the art of sledging. "Our defenders are under orders to slide in and try to take him a few times. Then, just you see, we will get the reaction we want. No problems.

"As far as we are concerned, all is fair in love, war and football. You have to use every little tactic you can. It's not a dirty tactic - it's just a tactic that is there. He's young and he's shown he can't deal with it. So let's see what happens."

"I think Rooney has been playing above himself but hopefully for this game he'll come back down to earth," continued Didulica. "He's definitely a good player and he's aggressive, but that is maybe to our advantage. He's young and impulsive, and hopefully for us something could pop in his head, like with his studs up to the Swiss goalkeeper.

It may, of course, just be mind games but Baric, who intends to deploy the Juventus centre-half Igor Tudor as a defensive midfielder, has moulded a team with a cynical edge. Uefa has already fined them for having five players booked in their match against Switzerland and they picked up another four yellow cards against France. As well as having the tallest squad in the tournament, Croatia seem intent on being recognised as the dirtiest side in Portugal.

"Believe me, never fight a Croat," Giovanni Rosso, their right-sided midfielder, said. "All of our life we are fighting. That spirit is not just in football but every sport. We don't have any snow in Croatia but we even have the Olympic champion skier (Janica Kostelic]. It's in our genetics, in our make-up. God gave the Croatians our fighting spirit. England will be a very tough match but we will see who runs more, who fights more and we know that no one will show greater spirit than us."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not just a soccer match, eh? :rolleyes:

[MIJB#19]

-snap-
Ranked 25th in the world by Fifa, Croatia's team may be weaker than England's...
-snap-I realize it's just a little piece from what you posted, but I figured you copy and pasted this. Anyway, people referring to the FIFA world rankings to base a matchup on lose all credibility. ;)

[Mac Howard]

Couldn't agree with you more :)

[scooter]

There was a lot of talk about this on Swedish television after the Holland-game, and apparently the rule is that "it's a new event". Here goes, in the first event, Nistelroy is not involved in the play. Sure, he's offside, but since he's not getting the pass, he's not participating in the buildup. Then, there's this "new event" I talked about, and Nistelroy gets the ball (rebound? can't remember), and kicks it in. Nistelroy likes to run in an offside position to disturb the defenders. From what I understand, most coaches aren't thrilled about the rule implimentation, but it was explained to all of them before the tournament started (to avoid complaints).

The BBC broadcast was talking a lot about this as well. They even rolled out a video producd by FIFA to explain the new interpretation of the rule. Van Nistelrooy was in a passive offside position when the ball is first played and therefore not offside. (The ball is passed out to the left to a player making a very nice run) That player then dribbles forward once or twice as van Nistelrooy turns and runs back toward goal. He is then behind the defenders but also behind the ball. The ball is played across (he is behind the ball and therefore not offside) and he scores. So strictly speaking he was onside the whole time, when actually he was offside :D

Peter Schmeichel was one of the pundits that day, and he was arguing that the rule is bad because it states that van Nistelrooy is not offside in the passive position because he is not interfering with play. But he is standing in the 6 yard box when play in 20 yards upfield. How can a goalkeeper just ignore him? If you can't ignore him, he is interfering with play. Being a former goalkeeper myself, I would have to agree.

[andy m]

I haven't been impressed with England so far, against France they scored against the run of play then tried to defend for the rest of the match. Against Switzerland they were distinctly second best til scoring against the run of play and they only took control when Switzerland went down to ten men.

So I don't think they can comfortably beat anybody who'll be in the next round, and they'll have to raise their game to get past Croatia.
i think France were the better team, but they had virtually no decent chances until the final two set pieces. England matched them in the first half, and if Beckham's penalty had gone in then the game would have been pretty much over (i don't think England would have gone into such a defensive mode). when England defend they play very deep, allow opponents to come into dangerous positions but Sol Campbell snuffs pretty much everything out, Ledley King did likewise in the France game. it was very similar to England vs Argentina in World Cup 2002 in that respect - Argentina had the ball for virtually the final 30 minutes, but didn't get a decent shot in.

[scooter]

I think Spain did a number of things wrong in this tournament, but two things stand out to me. The first happened in their first game against Russia. Spain owned Russia. They dictated play throughout and had a number of great chances that they didn't convert. They also seemed to ease up a little after they scored. I remember thinking at the time here is a team that Spain should beat handly by 2 or 3 goals and they didn't. In a tournament like this, goal differential is important - they're going to need those goals later.

The second thing was their inability to watch the other teams in the tournament fail to hold onto leads by defending for more than about 15 minutes (or playing for a tie). This tournament has been full of games where one team scores and then they sit back and defend. In most of those games, the other team has come back and scored. To think that they could go out against Portugal and defend for a 0-0 tie for 90 minutes was a bad plan. I'm sure they planned on counterattacking with Portugal extended, but they didn't seem to be able to do that - there was too much distance between the midfield and the forwards. The wingers that looked so good in the first two games were invisible against Portugal.

As an aside, Raul had a terrible tournament. He looked jaded and uninterested throughout. He was a big disappointment.

[Mac Howard]

You shouldn't confuse domination of possession with dominating the match, Critch. Until the two mistakes by England (neither goal came from French play) France didn't create a single worthwhile chance in 90 minutes and Switzerland had just two shots on goal in the whole match - neither of which troubled James. By contrast, despite averaging only around 42% of possession, England scored 4 and Beckham should have made it five with his penalty. It's the rope-a-dope game!

If it came down to soccer skills I would worry little about the Croatia game but I fear it will be something of a physical battle - something England are not well set up to play. That the Croatian manager should see the dismisal of Rooney as a reasonable tactic says much about the approach Croatia may take.

I shall also be shouting for the Swiss because Greece would be a much easier road to the semis than an improving Portugal with quality players and the backing of the home crowd.

[scooter]

I shall also be shouting for the Swiss because Greece would be a much easier road to the semis than an improving Portugal with quality players and the backing of the home crowd.

Unfortunately Soccernet is reporting that Switzerland's Frei is not going to play because of the spitting incident from the last game against England. UEFA is still investigating the incident and Switzerland's FA is voluntarily keeping Frei out of the game. I'm not sure who else they have on the bench, but Frei is their most lethal threat.

[Coder]

Italian Media is taking their conspiracy theories too far... I realize group c is just one of many, but I have to share some of the stuff that's going on here. As you know, a 2-2 result between Denmark and Sweden tomorrow will mean that Italy is out of the tournament. The fact that Italy doesn't have the opportunity to advance out of the group by their own merits anymore seems to totally throw the media in Italy off their senses.

As I've mentioned before in this thread, Italy is now convinced that Sweden and Denmark had all this planned from the beginning. We supposedely made sure there was a camera on Totti the whole first game and Denmark was going to provoke him until he did something bannable (?). Now we're obviously plotting to play 2-2 as well, something which Italian journalists can't stop suggesting to coaches during the press-conference, and something which even the PLAYERS think is going to happen. Del Piero said that "a 2-2 result would be sickening!".

As if things weren't completely out of hand already, Italian journalists were stopped when they tried to fax a message from the Swedish player-hotel to the Danish one today. One can only hypothesize what they wanted to send, but I'm thinking that it would be an "agreement" that they would then publish as evidence that there is a plot.

What is WRONG with them.. is it so hard to accept that they haven't played good enough to go on to the next stage on their own merits? Maybe they're so worried about Sweden and Denmark playing a made up draw just because if Italy had been in the same situation they would have done it themselves?

[Desnudo]

Looks like the Dutch coach has a free ride home:

Dutch fans buy plane ticket for soccer coach

Sun Jun 20, 6:07 PM ET


AMSTERDAM (Reuters) - Dutch fans at Euro 2004 have clubbed together to buy a plane ticket out of Portugal for coach Dick Advocaat following the 3-2 defeat by the Czech Republic.


Reuters Photo



Advocaat was blamed for making a substitution in the second half which allowed the Czechs to come back from 2-1 down.


"We collected the money in just three minutes," said Johan de Laat who organised the initiative on a camp site in Portugal, news agency ANP reported.


Advocaat's ticket was booked for Tuesday's Virgin Express flight from Faro to Brussels, a flight that cost 163 euros (106 pounds), according to the airline's website.


The Dutch play their last Group D game on Wednesday, needing to win to have any chance of reaching the quarter-finals.


"We will give him the ticket through room service at his hotel. All he needs is his passport," De Laat said.


"He doesn't have to come back to the Netherlands."

[airulf]

Too funny.


These Italians are just too paranoid.

[MIJB#19]

The Dutch play their last Group D game on Wednesday, needing to win to have any chance of reaching the quarter-finals.And then Reuters lost all credibility. :D
The Dutch can still reach the quarterfinals with a draw if Germany loses.


Anyway, for one things, this tournament shows that pulling back to defend doesn't pay off for the big countries:
England 1-0 up, lost 1-2
Italy 1-0 up, drew 1-1, played counter footballed to 0-0 draw
Germany 1-0 up, drew 1-1
Netherlands 2-1 up, lost 2-3
Spain all three games?

[andy m]

ROONEY

[3ric]

And Rooney strikes again... woot!

[andy m]

france lead 2-1, arse.

[Darkiller]

Another bad game for France....
We're just not playing up to what we're supposed to do.

We're there though.
1st place finish, two wins, 7 points out of 9 possible.
Quarter-Finals versus Greece.

I'll take it.

[Mac Howard]

If you've seen the England/Croatia match then you can see what I mean that the England team is unbalanced with just 4 defenders and 6 attacking players (not helped by the FA sucking up to Blatter and FIFA in banning Ferdinand for a period that covered Euro 2004 as well as the remainder of Man Utd's season - Terry is no replacement at all for Ferdinand). There's just no support for central defence from the four midfield players unless they funnel back together.

But I agree with you, MIJB#19, that defending a one goal lead is of dubious tactical merit. Not only is the lead very often lost but the entire momentum switches to the recovering team and often a second goal comes - Gerrard's silly backpass against France was a direct result of that.

But I have some sympathy with the England coach. The team is flakey defensively and it's not surprising he sacrifices some of his excessive attacking play to bolster it.

[andy m]

it was fun to watch though. i'd rather watch england play like that and lose than be boring.

king should be playing instead of terry, he proved that in the france game.

[Mac Howard]

it was fun to watch though. i'd rather watch england play like that and lose than be boring.


An Australian commentator, after the Swiss game, said watching England was like passing a kidney stone :D

[andy m]

the swiss game was risable. but i think that commentator would change his mind after watching tonights game.

[Mac Howard]

As an England fan I was disappointed to see Saha come on and transform France (would have preferred England meet Greece in the quarters). As a Man Utd fan I'm delighted :rolleyes:

[daedalus]

As an England fan I was disappointed to see Saha come on and transform France (would have preferred England meet Greece in the quarters). As a Man Utd fan I'm delighted :rolleyes:I haven't seen any of the games but in a lot of the interviews with Henry pre-tournament, the particular person amongst the French forwards group he always seem to highlight is Saha.

Saha and Van Nistelrooij for the whole year next year should be outstanding. I can't wait for Ferguson to get all conspiracy theorist like the Italian press at every Smith yellow card, though.

[andy m]

united are supposedly after rooney too. i'd enjoy the games where smith and rooney were played up front in tandem :)

[Alf]

Screw Italy ! Go for the 2-2 !

[daedalus]

Only if EPL can loan-in Collina. :D

[daedalus]

Oh . . . and what Alf said. I REALLY want a 2-2 result now.

[Katon]

If you've seen the England/Croatia match then you can see what I mean that the England team is unbalanced with just 4 defenders and 6 attacking players (not helped by the FA sucking up to Blatter and FIFA in banning Ferdinand for a period that covered Euro 2004 as well as the remainder of Man Utd's season - Terry is no replacement at all for Ferdinand). There's just no support for central defence from the four midfield players unless they funnel back together.


Minor quibble - a fully healthy John Terry is a perfectly good replacement for Ferdinand, arguably even an improvement. John Terry still not really recovered from an injury you are perfectly right about.

[mordhiem]

Minor quibble - a fully healthy John Terry is a perfectly good replacement for Ferdinand, arguably even an improvement.

I am sorry, but that is very inaccurate. Ferdinand was in the form of his life and probably the best defender in the Premiership until his ban last year. Certainly, John Terry had a good season, but he is not yet in at 'world-class' level that Ferdinand has reached twice (WC '02 & last season). That is not to say Terry is a terrible defender, because he is a very good one but just not as good as Ferdinand, at least yet. I do think that Ferdinand and Terry will partner each other for England for many years in the future and will become as renownked as the Nesta/Cannavaro partnership is now. Campbell is an excellent defender, but a) he is 29 and age will count against him eventually and b) he has poor ball skills whilst Terry and especially Ferdinand are both excellent with the ball at their feet.

[SirFozzie]

Agreed with the discussion early in the thread. Crying whinebabies Italy deserve to have a 2-2 draw in the other game. Fortunately, I think Bulgaria will eek out a draw against a weakened Azurri side. See? No problem ;)

[Desnudo]

Agreed with the discussion early in the thread. Crying whinebabies Italy deserve to have a 2-2 draw in the other game. Fortunately, I think Bulgaria will eek out a draw against a weakened Azurri side. See? No problem ;)

On a positive note, did anyone see that crazy save Buffon made.

[MIJB#19]

So, anyone in for a bet that Sweden-Denmark ends up 3-2 for one side on a last minute freak goal?
:D

[Coder]

I've got this gut-feeling that Denmark will win, and spoil our glorious conspiracy against gli azzuri :(

[Desnudo]

On a lighter note:

Serena swoons over Rooney

England's Euro stars have found a new fan in the shape of Wimbledon champion Serena Williams.

After easily winning her opener on centre court Williams turned to her new passions - England and especially Wayne Rooney.

"It's weird, I've become an amazing English fan," she said. "I'm huge. I was like when England was down 1-0 (against Croatia) and they made the goal, I was like, 'Whoa'" I was so excited. I was screaming. Thinking, 'Why am I screaming so hard?"

"I don't think he's pudgy at all," she said of Rooney. He's only 18. That's a horribly mean thing to say. He's doing real good. Yeah, he's a real sweetie."

Who said he was pudgy?

[MIJB#19]

On a lighter note:

Serena swoons over Rooney

England's Euro stars have found a new fan in the shape of Wimbledon champion Serena Williams.

After easily winning her opener on centre court Williams turned to her new passions - England and especially Wayne Rooney.

"It's weird, I've become an amazing English fan," she said. "I'm huge. I was like when England was down 1-0 (against Croatia) and they made the goal, I was like, 'Whoa'" I was so excited. I was screaming. Thinking, 'Why am I screaming so hard?"

"I don't think he's pudgy at all," she said of Rooney. He's only 18. That's a horribly mean thing to say. He's doing real good. Yeah, he's a real sweetie."

Who said he was pudgy?I guess the FIFA ruling against the Cameroon outfits has made Serena drop her old football love to adopt a new one.
I wonder when she'll start playing with a red Rooney shirt on...

[andy m]

he is 29 and age will count against him eventually and b) he has poor ball skills whilst Terry and especially Ferdinand are both excellent with the ball at their feet.

campbell has another 4 years as a world class defender. possibly 5 or 6. he doesn't rely on pace, more so his intelligence and ability to be in the right place at the right time. which is why the rio / sol combo is so effective, 1 player with a high amount of talent, one with a high amount of smarts. campbell's inability to put his foot on the ball doesn't bother me in the least when he snuffs out so much.

i don't foresee terry over-taking campbell as the number one choice to partner rio for quite some time.

[SirFozzie]

Wonder if the weather (drizzle to moderate rainfall) will be a factor in the Sweden-Denmark game. Remember, if the sides draw, Italy has to win by two and score at least three to get through.

[SirFozzie]

Gawd damn! What a goal for Denmark: Tomasson puts in one of the best goals of the tournament, and lead 1-0.

30 minutes in:

1-0 Denmark over Sweden
0-0 Bulgaria/Italy

Denmark would win the group, Sweden second, and Italy would be out (they MUST win)

[SirFozzie]

Right on the stroke on halftime.. Bulgaria gets a PK.. and it's 1-0, and an utter disaster for Italy!

As things stand, they would finish LAST in the group.