PDA

View Full Version : Privacy issue or Unlawful Intrusion? New California DNA Ballot Proposition.


stevew
06-13-2004, 03:01 PM
A man who lost his brother to an unknown serial killer has bankrolled a November ballot measure that would force everyone arrested for a felony in California to provide a DNA sample.

Although backers of the measure say such a greatly expanded DNA database could clear up thousands of unsolved crimes, civil rights activists argue it would give the government access to too much information about too many people.

"DNA is not like a fingerprint, since getting it is more invasive and it holds information beyond mere identification,'' said Tania Simoncelli, a science and technology fellow for the American Civil Liberties Union. "Storing it permanently for future criminal investigations doesn't comply with the Constitution.''

That's not the way Bruce Harrington, a Newport Beach attorney and developer, sees it. Harrington spent more than $1.3 million to qualify the initiative for the ballot and is confident he'll win the support of California voters in November.

"It's really a shame that California is so far behind when it comes to collecting DNA, when there's compelling information from other states about how effective it can be,'' Harrington said.

He said that under the ballot measure, "At the same time someone has a mug shot and fingerprints taken after an arrest, he'll have a mouth swab (for DNA) and that's it.''

California already requires DNA samples from everyone convicted of a serious felony. The initiative, which does not yet have a ballot number, would immediately require DNA samples from everyone convicted of any felony, as well as those arrested for murder or rape. The ballot measure requires that beginning in 2009, DNA samples would be collected from anyone arrested for a felony.

"Today, with a state DNA database of more than 220,000 samples, we have increased the number of 'hits' from one a year to an average of more than one a day,'' said state Attorney General Bill Lockyer, a co-chair of the initiative campaign. "By including DNA samples from all felons, we should have a database of more than 1 million DNA profiles that will help California law enforcement use this proven, high-tech tool to quickly solve even more criminal cases and prevent more crimes from being committed.''

The crime Harrington really wants solved is the 1980 slaying of his brother and his sister-in-law. Keith Harrington, a 24-year-old medical student at UC Irvine, and Patti, his wife of three months, were in bed when an intruder broke into their Orange County home, bound them both, raped Patti and beat the two young people to death.

In 2000, DNA from the murder scene was matched with evidence from eight other Southern California slayings. It also was linked to the never-identified East Area Rapist, who terrorized Northern California in the late 1970s, raping at least 40 women in a rampage that stretched from Sacramento to San Ramon.

The attacks stopped abruptly in 1986, leading police to conclude that the unknown killer, now dubbed the original "Night Stalker," had either died, moved or been sent to prison.

"I'm firmly convinced that the only way we can solve my family's crime is to find an inmate in for an unrelated conviction who hasn't given up his DNA," Harrington said.

Harrington's efforts haven't always won him friends. He's no fan of state Democratic Sen. John Burton of San Francisco, who he believes has tried to block efforts to expand DNA testing laws.

"All I see and hear from Senator Burton, his staff and his cronies is a buzz saw of opposition and obfuscation, focused more on the rights of prisoners than on the rights of their victims,'' Harrington said in an April 2002 appearance before Burton's Public Safety Committee. Burton denies those charges.

Harrington said it wasn't a hard decision to spend the $1.3 million it took to collect 660,000 signatures for the ballot initiative.

"I was convinced the DNA bills would be stalled forever by the Democratic leadership (of the state Senate),'' Harrington said. "This way I can bypass them, put it in front of the voters and let them decide.

"I don't see how you can put a price on the life of a brother.''

During the fall campaign, opponents of the initiative are likely to focus on privacy concerns and the multimillion dollar cost of the expanded DNA database. While the initiative would boost all criminal fines, including traffic tickets, by 10 percent to pay those costs, opponents argue that would not be enough. The privacy protections in the measure also aren't sufficient to protect the public, said Simoncelli of the ACLU.

"We feel this initiative is impractical, unworkable and unaffordable,'' she said. "The ACLU is not opposed to using DNA evidence, but it's a different question about whether that information should be stored permanently.''

Although the initiative allows people to have their DNA information pulled from the database and destroyed if they have been found innocent or released without charges, it requires a court order and a complicated stack of paperwork before it can be done.

Supporters argue that DNA samples are nothing more than high-tech fingerprints, which already are taken from everyone arrested and stored forever.

This is an interesting ballot measure. While it should be helpful to clear up some cases, Im not sure I put DNA on the same level as fingerprints. But I suppose the harm will be to the guilty.

Chubby
06-13-2004, 03:08 PM
At least this is in Cali. No way I'd vote for this in NY.

The harm would be to just the guilty? Not very likely. It's bad enough that there are GPS elements in cell phones nowadays. This is basically saying that we don't trust our rehabilitation system and that we assume a convicted felon will commit another crime.

This time it's felons, next it's misdemeanors, next it's everyone.

NoMyths
06-13-2004, 03:12 PM
Eeeek...taking DNA samples just for being arrested, when conviction is already the threshold? I don't see this passing (thankfully).

MrBug708
06-13-2004, 03:14 PM
Just for an arrest? No thanks. I can understand a conviction though....

atatange1
06-13-2004, 03:23 PM
We keep fingerprints. Why not keep something much more reliable. Upon conviction only.

Tekneek
06-13-2004, 03:24 PM
Merely for being arrested? No way. I don't even think records should be kept for arrests that did not result in convictions.

Chubby
06-13-2004, 03:25 PM
We keep fingerprints. Why not keep something much more reliable. Upon conviction only.
That's not what they want, they want it on arrest.

Even if it was after conviction I can't say I'm for it. If the police think a convict is a suspect for a specific crime then they can try and test him.

Tekneek
06-13-2004, 03:47 PM
Chubby, I agree with you. If you can convince a Judge that an order needs to be granted to get the DNA, then alright. Freedom to just take it and keep it on file in case you might need it in the future? Absolutely not.

stevew
06-13-2004, 03:50 PM
But what if someone's DNA being on file, can solve a rape, or a series of murders? Dont the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few?

Chubby
06-13-2004, 03:57 PM
But what if someone's DNA being on file, can solve a rape, or a series of murders? Dont the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few?

What if a implanting a chip into everyone would help solve a rape or a series of murders?

I hope you are going down to your police station tomorrow to turn in your DNA sample.

Considering we ARE talking about California, which doesn't exactly have the best record with police corruption I have no doubt that this will fail.

I'm a little confused how you can be for taking away people's right to privacy and then turn around and pull a Spock "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". You're saying the exact opposite by being in favor of this. You want to take away privacy rights of hundreds of thousands of people to solve a crime or 2?

Tekneek
06-13-2004, 03:59 PM
But what if someone's DNA being on file, can solve a rape, or a series of murders? Dont the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few?

No. The rights of the individual should supercede any speculated gains by the whole. "Any felony" is overly broad and goes too far. The argument by supporters that since the government already oversteps their boundaries (IMHO) by keeping fingerprint records of everyone they arrest (regardless of conviction or outcome), we should extend that even further. Nice logic.

Since we're already invading your privacy, and whittling away your individual rights...we should be able to invade it a little more. I'm sort of willing to accept it for felony convictions, but if the conviction is overturned they must destroy any record of it.

Bubba Wheels
06-13-2004, 05:17 PM
Conviction of a felony is pretty serious. Absolutely if convicted.

Bubba Wheels
06-13-2004, 05:24 PM
Here's another one that should be implemented as soon as possible. The Sheriff of Macomb County in Michigan is suggesting a data-base of registered violent offenders in exactly the same manner as sexual offenders. Why not? I think its a great idea, already long overdue. Statistics show a relatively small number of repeat offenders cause most crime anyway. This registery program would be giving the non-violent another way to protect themselves.

Axxon
06-13-2004, 05:41 PM
Here's another one that should be implemented as soon as possible. The Sheriff of Macomb County in Michigan is suggesting a data-base of registered violent offenders in exactly the same manner as sexual offenders. Why not? I think its a great idea, already long overdue. Statistics show a relatively small number of repeat offenders cause most crime anyway. This registery program would be giving the non-violent another way to protect themselves.

Try to put my name on that list buster and I'll beat the .... oh, wait, never mind.


I'm not sure I agree with these databases at all but I do agree, if we have a sex offender registry we should have a violent offender registry. I'll admit self interest, since I have no kids, I don't really benefit from the former but I would from the latter.

Still, the whole issue of storing even more information about people, DNA included, scares me.

Chubby
06-13-2004, 05:46 PM
Conviction of a felony is pretty serious. Absolutely if convicted.

You do realize that by speeding enough that could be a felony, no?

As the tv commercials point out, cable theft is a felony. Those people need their DNA stored too?

wig
06-13-2004, 05:47 PM
The military already keeps everyone's DNA.

stevew
06-13-2004, 06:04 PM
As the tv commercials point out, cable theft is a felony. Those people need their DNA stored too?

Im willing to wager Chubby has a cable box at home.

Axxon
06-13-2004, 06:16 PM
Im willing to wager Chubby has a cable box at home.

I don't. Haven't had one in years. Had DirecTv for about 5 years but haven't had it in over a year. I only have regular tv and I rarely watch that.

Now, that being said, what point did you have about


As the tv commercials point out, cable theft is a felony. Those people need their DNA stored too?


because I think it raises a really good point.

Bubba Wheels
06-13-2004, 06:29 PM
So if we change the wording to 'violent felony," would that make a difference?

Tekneek
06-13-2004, 06:42 PM
The military already keeps everyone's DNA.

As of now, it is also a strictly volunteer service as well.

Tekneek
06-13-2004, 06:43 PM
So if we change the wording to 'violent felony," would that make a difference?

As long as you are saying "those convicted of a violent felony" with the clause that all records relating to the DNA must be destroyed if the felony convictions are overturned.

Bubba Wheels
06-13-2004, 06:45 PM
As long as you are saying "those convicted of a violent felony" with the clause that all records relating to the DNA must be destroyed if the felony convictions are overturned.

As long as its not on a technicality.

stevew
06-13-2004, 07:08 PM
Fingerprinting is still legal. I dont think this is THAT much more serious than fingerprints. Im not planning on committing any heinous felonies any time soon, so Im not all that worried about it.

Chubby
06-13-2004, 07:29 PM
Im willing to wager Chubby has a cable box at home.

Pay up, but thanks for labeling me a thief. I have digital cable and road runner but I guess technically I DO have a cable box see, it's provided by Time Warner with a cool little remote. They run those stupid ass commercials by Time Warner on tv ALL the time. It's hard not to remember them.

Chubby
06-13-2004, 07:31 PM
As long as its not on a technicality.

It doesn't quite work like that. If it's overturned it's overturned.

Why don't you just come out and say "Whatever felonies I personally deem worthy of keeping DNA on." :rolleyes:

Tekneek
06-13-2004, 07:45 PM
As long as its not on a technicality.

An overturned conviction is an overturned conviction. If the government doesn't follow the rules, the conviction never happened.

Tekneek
06-13-2004, 07:48 PM
Fingerprinting is still legal. I dont think this is THAT much more serious than fingerprints. Im not planning on committing any heinous felonies any time soon, so Im not all that worried about it.

Oh. I wondered when the 'if you've got nothing to hide, why worry about it' argument was going to come out. Police have never lied and fabricated evidence, right? Just do a few Google searches and you can find plenty of news stories indicating otherwise. Why should they be provided more tools to play with, when they can already get the DNA with a court order anyway? They're just looking for a way to cheat the system, because the 4th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution makes them work a little harder than they want to.

sterlingice
06-14-2004, 02:08 PM
The military already keeps everyone's DNA.
It's from old smallpox vaccines and stored in a giant mountain in West Virginia. Wait, that was an X-Files episode...

Try to put my name on that list buster and I'll beat the .... oh, wait, never mind. :D

SI

Huckleberry
06-14-2004, 02:24 PM
"I'm firmly convinced that the only way we can solve my family's crime is to find an inmate in for an unrelated conviction who hasn't given up his DNA," Harrington said.

So why does the measure call for it on arrest and not conviction?

tategter
06-14-2004, 03:15 PM
So why does the measure call for it on arrest and not conviction?

Now there's an interesting scenario. If you are required to drop your DNA off at the time of your arrest, and it happens to link you to the crime you are being arrested for, can they use it in your trial?

Just for the record I am all for this bill and anything else that helps put criminals away. It is an invasion of privacy, no doubt about it, but one that I can easily live with.

Tekneek
06-14-2004, 03:18 PM
Just for the record I am all for this bill and anything else that helps put criminals away. It is an invasion of privacy, no doubt about it, but one that I can easily live with.

And so the Bill of Rights becomes a little more meaningless...

Front Office Football Central Database Error
Database Error Database error
The Front Office Football Central database has encountered a problem.

Please try the following:
The forumsold.operationsports.com forum technical staff have been notified of the error, though you may contact them if the problem persists.
 
We apologise for any inconvenience.