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NoMyths
06-15-2004, 12:43 PM
Looking for reasons why Ashcroft lost a race to a dead man? Here you go. Oh, and for all the conservative folk who I anticipate will post "I read the first sentence and didn't need to read any farther," I suggest skipping it and reading it last--the important stuff follows the opinion (of course, this leaves open the witty "I read the whole thing and still could post that sentence" rejoinder, but at least then you'll have read the whole thing).

Link: NYT: Travesty of Justice (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/15/opinion/15KRUG.html)

Full Text:
Travesty of Justice
by Paul Krugman

No question: John Ashcroft is the worst attorney general in history.

For this column, let's just focus on Mr. Ashcroft's role in the fight against terror. Before 9/11 he was aggressively uninterested in the terrorist threat. He didn't even mention counterterrorism in a May 2001 memo outlining strategic priorities for the Justice Department. When the 9/11 commission asked him why, he responded by blaming the Clinton administration, with a personal attack on one of the commission members thrown in for good measure.

We can't tell directly whether Mr. Ashcroft's post-9/11 policies are protecting the United States from terrorist attacks. But a number of pieces of evidence suggest otherwise.

First, there's the absence of any major successful prosecutions. The one set of convictions that seemed fairly significant — that of the "Detroit 3" — appears to be collapsing over accusations of prosecutorial misconduct. (The lead prosecutor has filed a whistle-blower suit against Mr. Ashcroft, accusing him of botching the case. The Justice Department, in turn, has opened investigations against the prosecutor. Payback? I report; you decide.)

Then there is the lack of any major captures. Somewhere, the anthrax terrorist is laughing. But the Justice Department, you'll be happy to know, is trying to determine whether it can file bioterrorism charges against a Buffalo art professor whose work includes harmless bacteria in petri dishes.

Perhaps most telling is the way Mr. Ashcroft responds to criticism of his performance. His first move is always to withhold the evidence. Then he tries to change the subject by making a dramatic announcement of a terrorist threat.

For an example of how Mr. Ashcroft shuts down public examination, consider the case of Sibel Edmonds, a former F.B.I. translator who says that the agency's language division is riddled with incompetence and corruption, and that the bureau missed critical terrorist warnings. In 2002 she gave closed-door Congressional testimony; Senator Charles Grassley described her as "very credible . . . because people within the F.B.I. have corroborated a lot of her story."

But the Justice Department has invoked the rarely used "state secrets privilege" to prevent Ms. Edmonds from providing evidence. And last month the department retroactively classified two-year-old testimony by F.B.I. officials, which was presumably what Mr. Grassley referred to.

For an example of changing the subject, consider the origins of the Jose Padilla case. There was no publicity when Mr. Padilla was arrested in May 2002. But on June 6, 2002, Coleen Rowley gave devastating Congressional testimony about failures at the F.B.I. (which reports to Mr. Ashcroft) before 9/11. Four days later, Mr. Ashcroft held a dramatic press conference and announced that Mr. Padilla was involved in a terrifying plot. Instead of featuring Ms. Rowley, news magazine covers ended up featuring the "dirty bomber" who Mr. Ashcroft said was plotting to kill thousands with deadly radiation.

Since then Mr. Padilla has been held as an "enemy combatant" with no legal rights. But Newsweek reports that "administration officials now concede that the principal claim they have been making about Padilla ever since his detention — that he was dispatched to the United States for the specific purpose of setting off a radiological `dirty bomb' — has turned out to be wrong and most likely can never be used in court."

But most important is the memo. Last week Mr. Ashcroft, apparently in contempt of Congress, refused to release a memo on torture his department prepared for the White House almost two years ago. Fortunately, his stonewalling didn't work: The Washington Post has acquired a copy of the memo and put it on its Web site.

Much of the memo is concerned with defining torture down: if the pain inflicted on a prisoner is less than the pain that accompanies "serious physical injury, such as organ failure," it's not torture. Anyway, the memo declares that the federal law against torture doesn't apply to interrogations of enemy combatants "pursuant to [the president's] commander-in-chief authority." In other words, the president is above the law.

The memo came out late Sunday. Mr. Ashcroft called a press conference yesterday — to announce an indictment against a man accused of plotting to blow up a shopping mall in Ohio. The timing was, I'm sure, purely coincidental.

rkmsuf
06-15-2004, 12:45 PM
I'm on America's side

CamEdwards
06-15-2004, 01:03 PM
First, there's the absence of any major successful prosecutions. The one set of convictions that seemed fairly significant — that of the "Detroit 3" — appears to be collapsing over accusations of prosecutorial misconduct. (The lead prosecutor has filed a whistle-blower suit against Mr. Ashcroft, accusing him of botching the case. The Justice Department, in turn, has opened investigations against the prosecutor. Payback? I report; you decide.)


Krugman's either an idiot or a liar. 310 individuals have been charged with terrorism related crimes. 179 have been convicted so far.

179.

JonInMiddleGA
06-15-2004, 01:12 PM
Krugman's either an idiot or a liar.
Judging from this little op/ed piece, I'd take option C: BOTH

QuikSand
06-15-2004, 01:13 PM
179.

How many are indisputably "major" in your mind?

Arles
06-15-2004, 01:14 PM
Before 9/11 he was aggressively uninterested in the terrorist threat
Doesn't this pretty much describe the entire country and administrations from 1992 to 2001?

Glengoyne
06-15-2004, 01:16 PM
[QUOTE=CamEdwards]Krugman's either an idiot or a liar. ...QUOTE]

I'm not sure which of those two choices I'd choose. I do think the article is all about innuendo, and not about substance. I do like the way he finished it though, making his point that Ashcroft makes major announcements to steal headlines from those criticizing him.

Arles
06-15-2004, 01:23 PM
There's also a problem with trying to convict terrorists. First, you have to often use classified or sensitive material as part of the case - which sometimes isn't in the best interest of field agents or the war on terror in general. Next, you have to prove that someone was going to do something wrong (since most charges result from planned or foiled terrorism plots). Since that is often very difficult, the US ends up going for a smaller and safer fraud-type charge.

Prosecuting the terror via the courts is a losing battle. Clinton had no luck in 8 years going down this road and it's a main reason why Bush's "War on Terror" is really the only way to go if we are serious about removing this threat.

Arles
06-15-2004, 01:25 PM
I do like the way he finished it though, making his point that Ashcroft makes major announcements to steal headlines from those criticizing him.
Or maybe it's the fact that he is criticized everyday, thereby making any announcement on his part compete with criticism. ;)

Maple Leafs
06-15-2004, 01:28 PM
Without weighing in on the accuracy of this article, it's worth pointing out that the NY Time, which has been traditionally left-leaning, is really stinging these days after dropping the ball in a big way on the WMD story. I'd expect many more pieces like this over the coming months as they work to even the scale.

Arles
06-15-2004, 01:31 PM
Without weighing in on the accuracy of this article, it's worth pointing out that the NY Time, which has been traditionally left-leaning, is really stinging these days after dropping the ball in a big way on the WMD story. I'd expect many more pieces like this over the coming months as they work to even the scale.
Is this the same NY Times that has opened the front page with a story on Abu Ghraib for 47 of the past 56 days? :rolleyes:

Franklinnoble
06-15-2004, 01:33 PM
Bah. I can't do flame wars before noon pacific.

GrantDawg
06-15-2004, 01:41 PM
How many are indisputably "major" in your mind?
none are major to the extreme left, and all are major to the extreme right. Where have you been?

Super Ugly
06-15-2004, 01:49 PM
"Is this the same NY Times that has opened the front page with a story on Abu Ghraib for 47 of the past 56 days?"

It's kind of an important story though, don't you think?

QuikSand
06-15-2004, 02:03 PM
none are major to the extreme left, and all are major to the extreme right. Where have you been?

Not to worry, I'm going back there now.

Radii
06-15-2004, 02:29 PM
none are major to the extreme left, and all are major to the extreme right. Where have you been?

As a moderate, I roll my eyes at those claiming the numbers undoubtably prove their points on either side, and earn the hatred of all.

<i>Oh, and for all the conservative folk who I anticipate will post "I read the first sentence and didn't need to read any farther,"

...

No question: John Ashcroft is the worst attorney general in history.
</i>

As a moderate who was once slightly left leaning but now appears *much* more liberal thanks to the extreme polarization that has occured in this coutnry since 9/11, I can say that I read that first sentence and stopped reading, because duh, that goes without saying.

BishopMVP
06-15-2004, 02:52 PM
How many are indisputably "major" in your mind?Which begs the question...if McVeigh/Nichols or the 9/11 terrorists had been arrested and convicted, would that have been indisputably "major"? No. It's the nature of the beast (can't reveal everything and most people won't believe the worst-case scenario spelled out by the government would actually come to pass). Just look at the recent alleged plot to kill ~20,000 in Jordan. Barely warrants a mention because it didn't actually happen.

Jon
06-15-2004, 02:57 PM
Without weighing in on the accuracy of this article, it's worth pointing out that the NY Time, which has been traditionally left-leaning, is really stinging these days after dropping the ball in a big way on the WMD story. I'd expect many more pieces like this over the coming months as they work to even the scale.

First of all, the NY Times is not a left leaning paper. It's pretty much a moderate-left, but not a left paper.
Second, this is a columnist writing a piece on the editorials pages of the Times. It's his opinion, not the times.
Third, to respond to Cam and others, it is simply incorrect to blame the Clinton administration for every single terrorism related problem that we have had. Remember, Reagan sold arms to Iran, a terrorist supporting nation. He also funneled money to the Afghan insurgents through Pakistan, which included Bin Laden. Bush did not focus on terrorism. Clinton successfully prosecuted many terrorists, and made many attempts to get some covertly. He also waged the Baltic War, part of which was fueled by Al-Qaeda. He didn't launch cruise missiless for fear of collateral damage, and may have waited to long to issue a directive allowing the killing of Bin Laden. But to solely blame him is incorrect and just another attempt to blame Clinton for all of America's problems.

Before I am again accused of being a left wing zealot (because those who have actually read my posts sometimes seem to have misinterpreted them), we can't blame Bush for these problems either. My biggest gripe is that I disagree with his policies, and I can't stand Ashcroft because I do value due process rights so highly. Maybe it's to a fault, but just as Bush is resolute in his ideals I am just as resolute in mine. I applaud his determination in his ideals but, at the same time, I feel he should be held accountable. The same goes to Ashcroft. I think he has done more to undermine civil liberties than any recent attorney general. His moral indignation at anything he disagrees with is terrifying. And I hope to see him gone, whether Bush is reelected or not.

Bee
06-15-2004, 02:57 PM
As a moderate, I roll my eyes at those claiming the numbers undoubtably prove their points on either side, and earn the hatred of all.

<i>Oh, and for all the conservative folk who I anticipate will post "I read the first sentence and didn't need to read any farther,"

...

No question: John Ashcroft is the worst attorney general in history.
</i>

As a moderate who was once slightly left leaning but now appears *much* more liberal thanks to the extreme polarization that has occured in this coutnry since 9/11, I can say that I read that first sentence and stopped reading, because duh, that goes without saying.

I've experienced something similar. Several years ago, during political discussions with friends I was called conservative. I have generally the same values and opinions and am now often called a liberal when discussing politics with the same friends. LOL

Radii
06-15-2004, 03:13 PM
I've experienced something similar. Several years ago, during political discussions with friends I was called conservative. I have generally the same values and opinions and am now often called a liberal when discussing politics with the same friends. LOL

Oh I've always leaned to the left, but while my ideals are still pretty close to the middle in my mind, in conversation I always seem to come across as the extreme left opinion. At the same time, I've referred to someone as "ultra-conservative" and had them be rather shocked to hear the term.

We're just polarized all to hell, I feel like if Bush got on the air and said "We are going to attack Palestine. they are working on strength training and are getting to the point that the rocks they hurl can put American lives in danger. Syria, Jordan, North Korea, Russia, England, and Japan also posess rocks. They will be dealt with in turn. America will have justice. The grass is green." ... and I said "yeah, the grass is green, so there was on element of truth in what bush said" that i would immediately be labelled as a right wing conservative, no matter how forcefully I argued all the other comments.

Weird times we live in. Vote Kodos in 2004.

Radii
06-15-2004, 03:17 PM
The same goes to Ashcroft. I think he has done more to undermine civil liberties than any recent attorney general. His moral indignation at anything he disagrees with is terrifying. And I hope to see him gone, whether Bush is reelected or not.

I have said in conversations elsewhere that if Rumsfeld and Ashcroft were removed from office I would actually give a vote for Bush a reasonable amount of consideration.

JonInMiddleGA
06-15-2004, 03:40 PM
And I hope to see him gone, whether Bush is reelected or not.
A sidebar to be sure, but a possibly interesting one nonetheless.

I'm technically an independent (read as: not a card-carrying member) who votes virtually exclusively Republican these days ... for the purpose of the question, let's just consider the group I'm asking the next question about as "Republican=anyone who votes Republican 80% of the time or more".

Q: I wonder how many "Republicans" feel like I do -- that Ashcroft is even better at his job than Bush is at his job.

Don't get me wrong, if I had to lose one of them, it'd be Ashcroft because he's ultimately more ... replaceable ... IMO. But I'm pretty sure that I agree with Ashcroft more often than I agree with Bush.

(I have a few theories about how the answers to that would break down, but since its a largely rhetorical question, I suspect my guesses are pretty much irrelevant).

wig
06-15-2004, 04:07 PM
Like NoMyths, I'm very much an independant. I look at both sides fairly, and come to logical conclusions. In fact, you could say I'm a member of the American party.

Though I don't fit your criteria, I'd like to say that Ashcroft is the worst thing to come out of the Republican party in many years.

sabotai
06-15-2004, 04:10 PM
You know what this is? It's a travashamockery! That's what it is!

kcchief19
06-15-2004, 05:59 PM
Let's give Mr. Ashcroft credit where credit is due -- no attorney general in history has had as had as many successful press conferences as John Ashcroft. It's been said so many times about so many, but it has never been more true in this case -- the most dangerous place in Washington is between John Ashcroft and a television camera.

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