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View Full Version : Rummy ordered prisoner to be hidden?


GrantDawg
06-17-2004, 12:04 PM
If proof is found, that really should be the final straw...


Rumsfeld Issued an Order to Hide Detainee in Iraq

</NYT_HEADLINE><NYT_BYLINE type=" " version="1.0">By ERIC SCHMITT and THOM SHANKER
</NYT_BYLINE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 align=right border=0><TBODY><TR><TD></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><NYT_TEXT>
http://graphics7.nytimes.com/images/dropcap/w.gifASHINGTON, June 16 - Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, acting at the request of George J. Tenet, the director of central intelligence, ordered military officials in Iraq last November to hold a man suspected of being a senior Iraqi terrorist at a high-level detention center there but not list him on the prison's rolls, senior Pentagon and intelligence officials said Wednesday.

This prisoner and other "ghost detainees" were hidden largely to prevent the International Committee of the Red Cross from monitoring their treatment, and to avoid disclosing their location to an enemy, officials said.

Maj. Gen. Antonio M. Taguba, the Army officer who in February investigated abuses at the Abu Ghraib prison, criticized the practice of allowing ghost detainees there and at other detention centers as "deceptive, contrary to Army doctrine, and in violation of international law."

This prisoner, who has not been named, is believed to be the first to have been kept off the books at the orders of Mr. Rumsfeld and Mr. Tenet. He was not held at Abu Ghraib, but at another prison, Camp Cropper, on the outskirts of Baghdad International Airport, officials said.

Pentagon and intelligence officials said the decision to hold the detainee without registering him - at least initially - was in keeping with the administration's legal opinion about the status of those viewed as an active threat in wartime.

Seven months later, however, the detainee - a reputed senior officer of Ansar al-Islam, a group the United States has linked to Al Qaeda and blames for some attacks in Iraq - is still languishing at the prison but has only been questioned once while in detention, in what government officials acknowledged was an extraordinary lapse.

"Once he was placed in military custody, people lost track of him," a senior intelligence official conceded Wednesday night. "The normal review processes that would keep track of him didn't."

The detainee was described by the official as someone "who was actively planning operations specifically targeting U.S. forces and interests both inside and outside of Iraq."

But once he was placed into custody at Camp Cropper, where about 100 detainees deemed to have the highest intelligence value are held, he received only one cursory arrival interrogation from military officers and was never again questioned by any other military or intelligence officers, according to Pentagon and intelligence officials.

The Pentagon's chief spokesman, Lawrence Di Rita, said Wednesday that officials at Camp Cropper questioned their superiors several times in recent months about what to do with the suspect.

But only in the last two weeks has Mr. Rumsfeld's top aide for intelligence policy, Stephen A. Cambone, called C.I.A. senior officials to request that the agency deal with the suspect or else have him go into the prison's regular reporting system.

Mr. Di Rita referred questions about the prisoner's fate to the C.I.A.

A senior intelligence official said late Wednesday that "the matter is currently under discussion."

In July 2003, the man suspected of being an Ansar al-Islam official was captured in Iraq and turned over to C.I.A. officials, who took him to an undisclosed location outside of Iraq for interrogation. By that fall, however, a C.I.A. legal analysis determined that because the detainee was deemed to be an Iraqi unlawful combatant - outside the protections of the Geneva Conventions - he should be transferred back to Iraq.

Mr. Tenet made his request to Mr. Rumsfeld - that the suspect be held but not listed - in October. The request was passed down the chain of command: to Gen. Richard B. Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, then to Gen. John P. Abizaid, the commander of American forces in the Middle East, and finally to Lt. Gen. Ricardo S. Sanchez, the ground commander in Iraq. At each stage, lawyers reviewed the request and their bosses approved it.

A senior intelligence official said late Wednesday that the C.I.A. inquired about the detainee's status in January, but was told that American jailers in Iraq could not find him, perhaps as a result of the chaos and confusion of the November and December spike in insurgent violence.

The detention was first reported in this week's U.S. News & World Report. But the role played by senior officials in deciding the detainee's status was not known publicly before Wednesday. Pentagon and intelligence officials gave new details on Wednesday about the prisoner and the circumstances that brought him to Camp Cropper, including the fact that his status was decided by Mr. Tenet and Mr. Rumsfeld, and approved by senior officers.

While acknowledging mistakes in the prisoner's detention, the senior intelligence official said the detainee posed a significant threat to American forces in Iraq and elsewhere. "He also possessed significant information about Ansar al Islam's leadership structure, training and locations," the official said.

At Camp Cropper, some prisoners had been held since June 2003 for nearly 23 hours a day in solitary confinement in small cells without sunlight, according to a report by the international Red Cross.

The suspected Ansar official was segregated from the other detainees and was not listed on the rolls. Under the order that had filtered down to General Sanchez, military police were not to disclose the detainee's whereabouts to the Red Cross pending further directives.

The prisoner fell into legal limbo as the military police pressed their superiors for guidance, which has still not formally come.

"Over the course of the next several weeks, the custodians at the prison asked for additional guidance, but there were no interrogations," Mr. Di Rita said.

Before this case surfaced, the C.I.A. has said it had discontinued the ghost detainee practice, but said that the Geneva Conventions allowed a delay in the identification of prisoners to avoid disclosing their whereabouts to an enemy.

In Washington, the Army announced that Gen. Paul J. Kern, the head of the Army Matériel Command, would oversee an Army inquiry into the role military intelligence soldiers played in the abuses at Abu Ghraib. General Kern replaces General Sanchez as the senior officer reviewing the findings. General Sanchez removed himself from that role so he could be interviewed by investigators.

John Galt
06-17-2004, 12:21 PM
Damn democrats always bashing Bush and Rummy.

KWhit
06-17-2004, 12:21 PM
This just seems to get worse and worse.

Assuming this is true, that is...

Fonzie
06-17-2004, 12:27 PM
I love the fact that they hid the prisoner so well that they couldn't find him again.

GrantDawg
06-17-2004, 12:29 PM
Damn democrats always bashing Bush and Rummy.

:D Yup, big liberal me.

Glengoyne
06-17-2004, 12:41 PM
This just seems to get worse and worse.

Assuming this is true, that is...
I have no doubts it is true. I do have doubts that this is all that damning news. The head of the CIA calls up the Secretary of Defense, and asks if he can direct the Army to prevent revealing the identity of this one "special" prisoner by holding him "off the books". Then the guy gets lost in the system, and no one from the CIA follows up. It sounds like Rummy complied with the request, and the CIA dropped the ball. It is true that Gen. Taguba's report indicated that hiding a prisoner was a violation of Army doctrine and international law, but it is also true that delaying the release of a prisoner's identity is allowable. I doubt that defense holds up because the length of time involved here is over a year, but I don't think that is Rumsfeld's fault. I think it was the CIA's responsibility to follow up, and they didn't. So yes it is another example of mishandling of prisoners, but I don't know that it is damning for Rumsfeld.

BishopMVP
06-17-2004, 02:04 PM
I have no doubts it is true. I do have doubts that this is all that damning news. The head of the CIA calls up the Secretary of Defense, and asks if he can direct the Army to prevent revealing the identity of this one "special" prisoner by holding him "off the books". Then the guy gets lost in the system, and no one from the CIA follows up. It sounds like Rummy complied with the request, and the CIA dropped the ball. It is true that Gen. Taguba's report indicated that hiding a prisoner was a violation of Army doctrine and international law, but it is also true that delaying the release of a prisoner's identity is allowable. I doubt that defense holds up because the length of time involved here is over a year, but I don't think that is Rumsfeld's fault. I think it was the CIA's responsibility to follow up, and they didn't. So yes it is another example of mishandling of prisoners, but I don't know that it is damning for Rumsfeld.The chain goes Tenet-Rumsfeld-Myers-Abizaid-Sanchez with "At each stage, lawyers reviewed the request and their bosses approved it."

While this story has a very disturbing aspect (IMO the fact we lost the guy in the system and didn't interrogate him) the focus on blaming Rumsfeld alone here seems like grasping at straws.

chinaski
06-17-2004, 02:12 PM
There are 2 "terrorism suspects" being "detained" here in Oregon, both held since dec 2001 without legal council or having any charges filed. this is happening all over the world.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1237589,00.html

GrantDawg
06-17-2004, 02:13 PM
The chain goes Tenet-Rumsfeld-Myers-Abizaid-Sanchez with "At each stage, lawyers reviewed the request and their bosses approved it."

While this story has a very disturbing aspect (IMO the fact we lost the guy in the system and didn't interrogate him) the focus on blaming Rumsfeld alone here seems like grasping at straws.
I forgot, the new political motto is "The Buck stops somewhere below me." :rolleyes:

GrantDawg
06-17-2004, 02:14 PM
There are 2 "terrorism suspects" being "detained" here in Oregon, both held since dec 2001 without legal council or having any charges filed. this is happening all over the world.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1237589,00.html
Which is another shame IMHO.

BishopMVP
06-17-2004, 02:16 PM
I forgot, the new political motto is "The Buck stops somewhere below me." :rolleyes:Well, if everyone in the chain of command reviewed it and approved it, it is clearly an institutional thing, and removing Rumsfeld won't change a damn thing.

GrantDawg
06-17-2004, 02:18 PM
Well, if everyone in the chain of command reviewed it and approved it, it is clearly an institutional thing, and removing Rumsfeld won't change a damn thing.
I would think changing the head would be the first step of changing a "institutional thing."

BishopMVP
06-17-2004, 02:26 PM
I would think changing the head would be the first step of changing a "institutional thing."That's assuming you want to change it, which I'm guessing Bush doesn't want to do. It seems like the CIA is the only group at fault IMO (because they lost track of the guy and stopped interrogating him) and Tenet's already gone. It seems clear from this article that keeping a suspected high-level prisoner off the books in the beginning is the norm for the armed forces. It didn't begin with Rumsfeld, and if he is replaced it won't end with his replacement. So keep pretending that all the perceived problems are his and the neocons fault.

HornedFrog Purple
06-17-2004, 02:28 PM
"Once he was placed in military custody, people lost track of him," a senior intelligence official conceded Wednesday night. "The normal review processes that would keep track of him didn't."

FBI spokesman: "Yes we have John Wayne Gacy in custody, but we don't know where he is. We got him though!"

Bee
06-17-2004, 02:30 PM
I forgot, the new political motto is "The Buck stops somewhere below me." :rolleyes:

That's not a new motto. :D

GrantDawg
06-17-2004, 02:39 PM
That's not a new motto. :DNo, but it is one we are seeming to hear a lot of recently. As a Republican, I've always thought our party was one of personal responsibilty. More and more, it seems this adminstration is going with "other persons" responsibilty. We criticized the heck out of Clinton for it, but at least he had the guts to fire people at cabinet level.

Passacaglia
06-17-2004, 02:46 PM
Next thing you know, they won't be able to find the guy who caught that foul ball. This is why we need media coverage of him 24 hours a day, so that he doesn't fly under the radar!!!

Flasch186
06-17-2004, 04:09 PM
Hey, now that Tenet's gone the whole chalk board is wiped clean and we should start fresh. Everyone's hands are clean, and no one is responsible for anything thats happened up til the day Tenet Resigned.

Thats horse crap....Ive heard so many excuses. THE RED CROSS gave multiple reports last year regarding events that were "tantamount to torture" and now all of a sudden the admin. is looking hard at those "few" people responsible. Only cuz of the press!! if We didnt live in a society of Free press I would be scared that some of the stuff i post on here might lead to my dissappearance.....who should i call first? Hmmm, NO ONE!! Ill just be stuck there and eventually thay hope, im forgotten about. ITs a bunch of crap, The aptriot act was a good idea, put it in the hands of Ashcroft and were talking "fatherland". We should care more than just defending the actions of the people in charge of these offenses.

I LOVE that ANNAN said the US was NOT immune from War Crimes and their trials....I hope we hide the evidence is hidden as well as the people we snag.

WussGawd
06-17-2004, 10:06 PM
The chain goes Tenet-Rumsfeld-Myers-Abizaid-Sanchez with "At each stage, lawyers reviewed the request and their bosses approved it."

While this story has a very disturbing aspect (IMO the fact we lost the guy in the system and didn't interrogate him) the focus on blaming Rumsfeld alone here seems like grasping at straws.

Those straws are a violation of the Geneva convention, fwiw. You could build a pretty good house of the straws, if the story is true.

Glengoyne
06-17-2004, 10:19 PM
Those straws are a violation of the Geneva convention, fwiw. You could build a pretty good house of the straws, if the story is true.
Not necessarily. Apparently there are provisions of the Geneva convention that allow for delaying the identification of prisoners. That was essentially what Rumsfeld agreed to. He didn't lose the guy in the system for seven months (I thought it was a year when I posted earlier). The CIA managed that.

I mean I am displeased with what went on in the prisons as most folks are. I just don't think it can all be traced up to the highest levels in government. I think critics of the administration are grasping at straws when they try to connect the dots from the President's inner circle to "war crimes".

Radii
06-17-2004, 10:45 PM
I think there is a legitimate question about the length of witholding the name from the proper authorities. I don't think the intent is for it to be a 7 month period of time. Whether it's technically a violation of the geneva convention or not, I will just quote rumsfeld and say "I don't know."

Flasch186
06-17-2004, 10:56 PM
of course we are....and as far as the supporters are concerned, theyre "concerned" wink wink. Grasping at straws for everything....

the iraqi abuse - grasp
Manufacturing czar outsourced his own co. to China - grasp
immigration czar says law is unenforceable - grasp
no connection b/w iraq and Al Qaeda - grasp
Bush claims there is when the INDEPENDENT commission says no evidence - grasp
CIA agent's name revealed when husband speaks out against war - grasp
No Child Left behind act serves as unfunded mandate - grasp
record deficits - grasp
Terror report filled with "erroneous" info. - grasp
own economic report has faulty info on job creation - grasp
unsubstantial punishment for companies that have "cooked their books" - grasp
Bush asks lawyers if he's immune to War Crimes (WHY SHOULD HE CARE?) - grasp
Post planning for Iraq is poor if not nil - grasp
Medicare prescription cards give 25% disc on price that raised 23% avg. since he took office (major campaign contributor Pharm. co's.) - grasp
Constitutional ammendment banning gay marriage - grasp
Outlaws stem cell research - grasp
more deaths in Iraq since he proclaimed "Mission Accomplished" (who put that sign there?!) - grasp
Stands resolutely beside his Sec. of Def. when he is caught in Lie after Lie - grasp
WMD in Iraq - grasp
Iraq an imminent threat to America - grasp

Im sure im leaving out a ton, but how many times do I have to grasp at straws before I come out with a handful?

Here they come!! duck - the blame Clinton's.....its his fault for all of the above....perhaps it was he who caused all this, im sure the RNC can find a way. C'mon, open the eyes,

NoMyths
06-18-2004, 01:26 AM
We've gone terribly awry. The question is whether enough Americans will stand for what is right to make a difference when the historians look back on our era.

Tekneek
06-18-2004, 06:37 AM
There are 2 "terrorism suspects" being "detained" here in Oregon, both held since dec 2001 without legal council or having any charges filed. this is happening all over the world.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1237589,00.html

He must be a terrorist. The US Government would never detain someone without just cause. :rolleyes:

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